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View Full Version : [D&D 3.5] The Monk [10 Level Base Class, PEACH]



ex cathedra
2009-09-17, 04:18 AM
Presenting The Monk (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYdLcxsM7Nx0ZGc2NzhibjNfNzJnNWpkZDJ2cA&hl=en).


The Monk is a revised version of the base class presented in the Dungeons & Dragons 3.5e Player's Handbook. This revision is intended to replace that class with a more compact, powerful, and enjoyable experience. The class has been reduced to a 10 level progression, and most class features have been heavily altered or removed. The Monk is significantly more powerful and streamlined than the original, and is now two to three tiers higher than it once was. This was an intended function of the revision. The class is now much more obviously supernatural in nature, as well. This, too, was intended.

The monk's role as a highly mobile melee skirmisher was expounded upon, and their iconic Flurry of Blows ability has been condensed into a standard action. This allows a monk to exploit its inherent fast movement class feature, as opposed to the original class where the two were at odds. It has received many new abilities, as well, all of which either call back to the original monk or create synergy with its new incarnation. The monk also now includes some amount of variant system support, as alternate class features directly include Psionic and Essentia-based abilities or bonuses.

Please review the Monk and share your opinions.


This was brought to you by:
The Penny Dreadful team's 3.52 fix pack

Omegonthesane
2009-09-17, 06:02 AM
I can't see any obvious abuses, and it's certainly an improvement. You might want to add the bonus speed into the table.

There's never any explanation of what the monk's "effective class level" is for the purpose of getting extra Flurry of Blows attacks. Could you put one in?

I'd recommend that the fly speed require that you start and end your flight in contact with something physical. So, either you jump from platform to platform or jump up to a flying thing and bounce off that for your next jump. This would then make an obvious later class feature of dropping something so you can jump off it; I have this mental image of a monk with clubs tied to his wrists on long strings so he can keep jumping off them and then retrieving them while he flies up.

ex cathedra
2009-09-17, 11:46 AM
I can't see any obvious abuses, and it's certainly an improvement. You might want to add the bonus speed into the table.

Done. Thanks for the input.



There's never any explanation of what the monk's "effective class level" is for the purpose of getting extra Flurry of Blows attacks. Could you put one in?
Yes, that was a bit vague, wasn't it? I've tried to clear it up a bit. The explanation may undergo several revisions.



I'd recommend that the fly speed require that you start and end your flight in contact with something physical. So, either you jump from platform to platform or jump up to a flying thing and bounce off that for your next jump. This would then make an obvious later class feature of dropping something so you can jump off it; I have this mental image of a monk with clubs tied to his wrists on long strings so he can keep jumping off them and then retrieving them while he flies up.

I don't think that physics work that way. :smallredface:
Feel free to fluff your monk as doing so, of course.

Doc Roc
2009-09-17, 12:20 PM
I don't think that physics work that way. :smallredface:
Feel free to fluff your monk as doing so, of course.

We've provided one set of ACFs for people who are somewhat uncomfortable with flight, and plan to offer at least one more set.

Omegonthesane
2009-09-17, 03:48 PM
I don't think that physics work that way. :smallredface:
Feel free to fluff your monk as doing so, of course.

It probably doesn't, but I can rationalise monks doing impossible jumps more easily than I can rationalise monks out and out flying. As written, there's no particular reason for a monk not to just stay in the air all the time.


We've provided one set of ACFs for people who are somewhat uncomfortable with flight, and plan to offer at least one more set.

I got the impression that the flight feature was meant to represent ridiculously extreme jumping in a mechanically decent manner, and critiqued accordingly.

Concerning the Taboos... I don't think there should be a mechanic that punishes you that badly over relatively minor RP details. A character being blind is a major disadvantage that needs mechanics, but I don't want to lose class features because I spent three days in a place with no rivers or running water. The Wu Jen didn't make them look too bad because they were explicitly drawbacks that came with her spell secrets, and only made you lose casting for that day, which I read to mean that (for example) a wu jen whose taboo is not bathing could every day have a nice relaxing bath before going to bed and prepare spells the next day as normal. Then again they were described as part of how the magic worked, not just self-inflicted restrictions.
As RP ideas they're fine, but they should probably be actually part of the main class ratehr than just the ACFs, and have the penalty toned down a little. Perhaps the taboos are part of the monk's training to be awesome, and by failing to adhere to them he loses his explicitly supernatural abilities for the day. I'm not going to suggest an exhaustive list as the impression I get is that taboos are meant to be trivial for gameplay purposes.

Doc Roc
2009-09-17, 04:05 PM
I'll go ahead and nerf bat the penalties, but they will continue to have mechanical penalties, in all likelyhood. They're ACFs because of this, and they're only used by one (very powerful) feat right now.

Godskook
2009-09-17, 04:31 PM
Why can't monks have nice things? A 10 level non-prestige monk class? Is it that you can't find 20 levels worth of class features for it?

Omegonthesane
2009-09-17, 04:34 PM
Why can't monks have nice things? A 10 level non-prestige monk class? Is it that you can't find 20 levels worth of class features for it?

Short of reworking combat, that's probably the case for all martial base classes. Frank & K already did a straight-to-level-20 Monk class, before releasing their advanced combat rules.

It probably wouldn't hurt to give more ACF options, or even trade-offs between two different ACFs at certain levels. Right now the only thing separating two of these Monks of the same level, assuming the DM is comfortable with flying monks, is their statline and their gauntlets. That's not precisely what one would normally call a Good Thing.

Doc Roc
2009-09-17, 04:53 PM
Actually, there's probably a good bit more that differentiating them depending on which feats you snag, but we do plan a few more sets of ACFs because I do agree that it's probably not enough. It's miles better than original monk in this respect, but..... There wasn't much point in adding more if people didn't like them very much to begin with.
As for the ten level thing, that was a conscious choice. We probably could have gone to twenty, but designing and building out the content for the war-marked was incredibly exhausting and took well over a month of solid work from ten writers and fifteen proof-readers. And it only goes up to 14 right now, to my deep chagrin.

So we decided to release early, and push new content out often.

T.G. Oskar
2009-09-17, 10:05 PM
I dunno...it's not making much streamlining rather than force-feeding the Monk's viable abilities and then overloading them, in ten levels. Wouldn't even make sense in d20 Modern, I feel.

There's some good and expected fixes, which I feel are worthwhile and which probably everyone agrees to:
--Full BAB. Paladins and Rangers get it, Monks oddly don't. They desperately needed that.
--Expanding the load choices to medium. Light load is too easy to reach.
--Diamond Soul based off character level, and as a free action. If it can be done out of turn, it's a clear winner. Unless, of course, against people with Assay Spell Resistance, loads of CL bonuses, and so on so on. I'd make it 15 + character level at Monk 10, so that it becomes more of a challenge.
--The ability to Fly. Now, this is a choice they (the original developers, WotC) should have added, even if it was just merely walking through the clouds as if a Wind Walk spell. It doesn't has to be DBZ-esque flying. I wouldn't change this by no means, although I'd make it akin to Wind Walk as mentioned.
--Alignment choice. While I don't mind the restriction per se (it's not like the Paladin's restriction, and I personally don't mind that one either after a good talk with the DM), the ability to open the Monk to other classes make it a decent choice. I would have liked to see something akin to the Chaos Monk's replacement for Flurry of Blows, quirky as it may be.

Now, for what I'm torn around:
--Hit Dice. Base Monk is a respectable d8, which is reasonable enough. d10 is, or well, usually is reserved for the meaty classes with armor. It's a small growth and any aid helps, but I don't see much to it.
--Reworking of AC bonus. The original one was quite simple, even if it didn't scaled too well. Exchanging it for a mechanic based on the base speed + non-spell enhancements makes it a bit too complex. It's generally better, but not easy to use, since you'd be looking at virtually every single rule just to work your AC to the stratosphere.
--Perfect Self. DR 8/- is moderately decent, although a bit too solid for the level; that tears my choice up a little.
--The level run. No base class has 10 levels. Stretching the given bonuses through 20 levels makes it suffer the same problem as before. Expanding the bonuses would make the class a bit too buff.
--The Flurry itself. I liked it as a full-round action, because it made a bit more sense. I mean, by 20th level, you aren't going to do full-round attacks ever! I find it odd that you guys didn't took the usual path recommended (allow some movement afterwards) As I see it, there's no reason why to do a full round action if I can't add the bonus attacks to my iteratives and viceversa.

And now, for the disappointments:
--Obsidian Mind. Seriously? I would have expected Mind Blank (and you know just how well they need it)
--The usual recommendation of allowing the Monk to move. The Ten Mirrored Steps option seems to make it worthwhile to stand up and attempt to take hits, but if you're taking a moving character, you'll be severely weak.
--Apparently you took Stunning Fist out of the list?
--The Quick and the Dead, specifically the part where being denied your Dex bonus to AC takes that out. That means that a single Bluff check lands a pretty solid hit (even though that's not so bad). Or invisible characters; all of a sudden, you're allowing the Rogue to hit better? Considering the chances of becoming invisible, I say it's a tad too bad it becomes so exploitable.
--I would have expected Freedom of Movement, or at least a massive bonus to Escape Artist. Or perhaps the effect of a Freedom of Movement based on Escape Artist (that would be really awesome, even if it's merely a "replace saving throw with skill check" thing)
--Losing Empty Body. I know, it doesn't aid the Monk too much. But! It could have been improved, methinks: Ninjas get it earlier, and get a ghost touch ability which they can use while ethereal. I would have gained that ability over Perfect Self in a heartbeat. Unless you're attempting to rework that, I feel a tad sad for a move that would be awesome...if it wouldn't have been taken so late, when you probably already multiclassed.

Finally, the wallbangers (I'd say so because I see them a tad too powerful):
--The Quick and the Dead. Not only does the title seems a tad too Western, but it's a horribly exploitable maneuver. I mentioned the earlier two trifles with it (a tad too complex to adjudicate, a severe weakness), but this one takes the cake. As it goes, and assuming psionics-magic transparency (and perhaps also soulmeld-magic transparency), any increase based on magic items, spells, psionics and probably soulmelds won't count. However, maneuver-based, feat-based and probably racial-based boosts count. The wording does not counter for short bursts, which would imply short bursts to AC as well. Still, +7 to AC as a bare minimum seems a tad too much, even worse when you can simply just replace it with a fly speed or a swim speed...
--Having the equivalent of Tongues at 3rd level. Not...particularly impressive, and a bit out of pace. It's...lacking any understanding.
--Perfect Self's Plane Shift. Seems strong at the moment it is taken, but eventually the mages will laugh at your attempt.

I still can't make whether it's a good or bad fix, but I would attempt something different instead of trying to use it. In any case, I'd go for Fax's fix rather than this, and I still don't seem to make any good sense out of that fix. I hope this doesn't offend you, guys.

Doc Roc
2009-09-17, 11:06 PM
The name has changed for the Quick and The Dead. The structure of the ability will not be changing, for better or for worse.

If you would like to write up a second half for the class, I'd certainly be interested. As it stands, I don't see a clean way of doing it.

I'm adding an ACF for planeshift right now. We'll see if that assuages some of your complaints in that regard.

I'd like to hear a more full explanation of your thoughts regarding Ten Mirrored Steps, so I can try and think about how I might address the core concerns.

T.G. Oskar
2009-09-17, 11:57 PM
The name has changed for the Quick and The Dead. The structure of the ability will not be changing, for better or for worse.

Well, it looks prettier and more evoking, but it's a tad shameful that the change was mostly minimal. You might blame me for being a traditionalist (since virtually every Monk or Monk stand-in on traditional dungeon crawlers and quite probably AC-based MU*s probably has it), but I find the level-based rise in AC a bit more elegant, and closer to the original rules. Perhaps boosting that up a bit to handle the expected growth of AC and then kick that up a notch.


If you would like to write up a second half for the class, I'd certainly be interested. As it stands, I don't see a clean way of doing it.

Well, the base idea would be to measure all the supernatural class abilities by their equivalent in spells (and when they can be gained), then adjusting for "penalties" and "uncounted benefits". It's a tad difficult, but if you measure it with the strongest classes around...

I'll attempt to see if I can work on it, although I'm inclined towards immediate feedback. Also, not a fan of chatrooms (inclined towards IM "chatting", though)


I'm adding an ACF for planeshift right now. We'll see if that assuages some of your complaints in that regard.

Well, I can't see how that would work since it's an ACF for an ability drawn from a larger class ability.

Saw it already and I feel it's a tad incomplete. Perhaps by granting the Monk the ability to make its weapons have an effective "Greater" Ghost Touch ability (as Ghost Touch, but it allows attacking while ethereal) and allowing any ability from the class transdimensionally. It makes for a superb defensive option that otherwise doesn't seem to exist in the Core Monk, and which I feel that would make the Monk truly awesome.


I'd like to hear a more full explanation of your thoughts regarding Ten Mirrored Steps, so I can try and think about how I might address the core concerns.

Well...considering you can move and attack, something I apparently missed (and oddly forgot to edit as I did with the Flurry), the small tidbit I wrote doesn't seem to hold relevance anymore; however, I found another something that I feel you haven't considered. There's something that works nicely with Ten Mirrored Steps, and that's the idea of making the "images" shadows instead of phantasms or glamers. I feel this was not addressed properly, as being shadows grants them a depth of realism that phantasms and glamers usually don't; namely, their actual surrealism by being drawn of surrealistic matter. A person with True Seeing would effectively defeat this ability, which is effectively the strongest classes in the game. Even Blindsight and Blindsense effectively ruin Mirror Image, mostly because it's a visual image. By making it a shadow image, you can work around those limitations by imposing a penalty rather than an elimination: a person with True Seeing knows the images are fake, but because of their shadowy substance it still has a penalty; perhaps some sort of concealment since the character effectively sees shadows. An individual with Blindsense or Blindsight might need to pass a Will save to detect the images are unreal, as well as those individuals with Tremorsense or Mindsight. This makes the ability significantly more powerful than it currently is, even though it is significantly more powerful than the typical mirror image. Perhaps they begin as it is, and at a later level their shadowy nature reveals and unlocks greater abilities.

Although, I feel this ability is better suited for a Ninja than a Monk. Perhaps it's all the Wuxia feel, but I feel a Monk rarely has need for deception of that magnitude, something a Ninja would find more than welcome. A Monk may move at such speeds that it leaves a blur, or perhaps counter with a displacement which leaves the individual open for a devastating strike (or, in D&D terms, deny their Dex bonus to AC)

Doc Roc
2009-09-18, 12:10 AM
"This is a supernatural ability and has the [shadow] type rather than the [illusion] type. "

That line's been in the descript for Ten Mirrored Footsteps for a while now, since well before launch. It's also a Su ability, and lacks the illusion descriptor. True-seeing may not even technically affect it.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-09-18, 12:18 AM
Unless I'm missing something, there's no reason not to choose the Chasing Sun for Dance of Sun and Moon--the two abilities are identical except that Moon is per day and Sun is per encounter. What's the point of Moon?

Doc Roc
2009-09-18, 12:19 AM
I cannot confirm or deny that I am in fact mid-edit, trying to come up with something for sun that's comparable to moon.

Fixed now.


@Oskar
I don't find the idea of monks stabbing people with their fists from the ethereal plane particularly appealing, particularly when this is otherwise a very difficult thing to do.

T.G. Oskar
2009-09-18, 01:03 AM
@OloOskar:
I don't find the idea of monks stabbing people with their fists from the ethereal plane particularly appealing, particularly when this is otherwise a very difficult thing to do.

Fixed. Olo hasn't posted in here since...well, since I dunno. Ever?

Also, you're speaking about a supernatural badass. Someone who should, at epic levels, trascend the plane of the normal. You are pretty much giving it an ability that a ninja (a Core Ninja, might I add) since 8th level (albeit once per use of ki, as a move action). 8th level...while at 10th, the ninja gains the ability to become ethereal.

I hardly see it very difficult. It gives the Monk the ability to do something while ethereal, since otherwise it would be impossible (it makes for an awesome escape power, but that's recognizing you did something wrong and it's better to run than to keep fighting). It can be supernatural, even; if you're fighting someone ethereal while on an AMF (something that I reckon it should be impossible), the Monk would still be in a disadvantage.

I'm conservative about some stuff, but this? This should be a gift to the Monk, to the character that spent 10 levels (or in the ideal case, 20 levels) attempting to be awesome. This should make it less "I'm better than before" and more "I'm the frickin' gods-be-damned Grand Master of Flowers; you better have something that piques my attention better than that silly trick".

As for TMS and True Seeing: IIRC, True Seeing affects everything. When I mean everything, I mean that it sees frickin' Bezekira, aka Hellcats!! (which are naturally invisible, which means it at least offers a vision of how would they be seen when that natural invisibility is gone)!! I'd say don't hold back on that one. It makes those with True Seeing have an advantage, but not the full advantage: in that case, the Monk will still probably have the chance to be put out of the fight with a well aimed spell, since the Mirror Images won't offer a block to line of effect. With that, even the favored Twinned Split Ray Maximized Empowered Enervation spell gets a limitation.

Also, agreeing with Pair. Freedom of Movement once per day is a tad too limiting, compared with what a Wizard can do (quickened Freedom of Movement) or heck, a Cleric with the spell can do (24 to 48 hour Freedom of Movement single cast). I'd agree to Freedom of Movement based on 1+Wis modifier times per day (adding more weight to Wisdom and limiting the options to a reasonable moment). I'd go fully for once per round as a free action, but with a hefty penalty for it (to escape one grapple, or to ignore the effects of one spell or such). Or something in between. But giving it as a SLA once per day, then attempting to rectify by making it 2/day eventually doesn't seem like a good fix.

The concept, though, seems awesome since it evokes the idea of a martial arts path, by which you seek to achieve perfection (or, in layman terms, it looks just like the Ranger's combat style but improved)

Doc Roc
2009-09-18, 03:47 PM
Issues mostly addressed, rescan if you please.

Myou
2009-09-18, 06:32 PM
The 10-level monk looks like a great improvement on the original, I like it a lot!



Unless I missed something, this class gives no Wis to AC. If that's the case then the AC seems painfully low, I think the monk needs something more to boost AC, both before and after getting Between the Raindrops. Maybe just Wis to AC as normal monks.


I think it would be better to specify that only certain class features are lost when burdened or in armour. Obsidian Mind is an example of one that shouldn't be affected.


The choice of alignments is good. I feel like you could make a great monk PrC based on the paths those alignments offer. It also encourages good rp.


The amount that unarmed strikes improve by past level 10 seems too little to really be worth investing in. Maybe +2 rather than +1? But before level 10 the numbers look good. Steady and useful.


I liked the numbers for Flurry. Oh and full BaB.


Way of Iron is good, I allow a similar ability myself.


Obsidian Mind is relatively minor, but good for fluff and flavour.


I think that Reckless Moon would be fine as an At-Will effect as opposed to a limited use one.


The wording in the first and last sentence of Between the Raindrops could be better. But the ability looks just right. Nice synergy with Fast Movement. You could possibly add a little skirmish damage in there too, or the ability to flurry as a standard action at some penalty.


Diamond Soul is great, but I'd suggest an immediate action, or free if done on your turn.


The images created by Ten Mirrored Steps should be able to use some form of Aid Another to help you, or provide some other benefit, otherwise this ability wouldn't be as good as getting a Mirror Image spell cast on you.


Disciplined Apitude is great.


I'd make Run on Air's maneuverability Perfect, just to save the hassle of figuring out how you can and can't move. And it's awesome to see flight included.


On the capstone, it's a great ability, but I think you should make the value of the DR equal character level.



Loads of really flavourful and well thought out abilities! :smallsmile:

imperialspectre
2009-09-19, 12:05 AM
The 10-level monk looks like a great improvement on the original, I like it a lot!

Unless I missed something, this class gives no Wis to AC. If that's the case then the AC seems painfully low, I think the monk needs something more to boost AC, both before and after getting Between the Raindrops. Maybe just Wis to AC as normal monks.

At low levels, the ability to use light armor is equivalent (practically speaking) to +4 AC - more than you could typically expect from WIS to AC anyway. At L4, you're playing a race with 30 base move because you're not crazy, +20 from your monk class feature, which equates to +5 AC from Between the Raindrops. The AC bonus is at least comparable, and I think superior.

Also, the idea of adding Wisdom to AC has always been kind of silly for a couple reasons. From a mechanical perspective, it was the big difference for monks between needing decent physical abilities like any other combat class and suffering from crippling MAD. From a roleplaying perspective, monks are (at their core) brawlers, and that may or may not fit with a high Wisdom - taxing a character by at least a feat in order to even function within their character concept is just poor design. The Wisdom to AC thing is best jettisoned entirely unless you're going to build the whole class off of Wisdom. For that, consult Tome of Battle, page 15.



I think it would be better to specify that only certain class features are lost when burdened or in armour. Obsidian Mind is an example of one that shouldn't be affected.

You may be right. Tide and Aethernox did virtually all of the design work for this class, so I can't speak for them as to why they made this choice. They're better qualified than I am to explain it. :smallsmile:


The amount that unarmed strikes improve by past level 10 seems too little to really be worth investing in. Maybe +2 rather than +1? But before level 10 the numbers look good. Steady and useful.

Noted.


The wording in the first and last sentence of Between the Raindrops could be better. But the ability looks just right. Nice synergy with Fast Movement. You could possibly add a little skirmish damage in there too, or the ability to flurry as a standard action at some penalty.

Flurry is already a standard action. Check the description. :smallsmile:

Mobility is a core aspect of the 3.x monk, and is practically the only thing that makes it unique compared to other 3.x combat classes. It's good to hear that it's working here.


Diamond Soul is great, but I'd suggest an immediate action, or free if done on your turn.

I'm guessing Tide stealth-edited this one, because it's a free action to suppress.


The images created by Ten Mirrored Steps should be able to use some form of Aid Another to help you, or provide some other benefit, otherwise this ability wouldn't be as good as getting a Mirror Image spell cast on you.

Aside from not needing a caster around, you may be right.


I'd make Run on Air's maneuverability Perfect, just to save the hassle of figuring out how you can and can't move. And it's awesome to see flight included.

Might be good.


On the capstone, it's a great ability, but I think you should make the value of the DR equal character level.

That might be a bit high. Once you're talking that level of DR, you're completely destroying archers, who are already in enough trouble with a character that can move so quickly.

DR is really hard to balance right, because there's a fine line between making it good enough to matter and making it so good that other people don't matter. Also, we want to be careful with DR because casters generally ignore it, and they're the ones we're actually worried about in terms of balance. So far, it's looking like War-Marked, 3.52 Monk, 3.52 Barbarian, and the ToB classes with 3.52 access all stack up really nicely - we don't want to disrupt that balance at all.


Loads of really flavourful and well thought out abilities! :smallsmile:

Thanks so much for the review, and also for the kind words. All of us appreciate them - but particularly the review, since so much of this is a work in progress. :smallsmile:

Myou
2009-09-19, 04:55 AM
At low levels, the ability to use light armor is equivalent (practically speaking) to +4 AC - more than you could typically expect from WIS to AC anyway. At L4, you're playing a race with 30 base move because you're not crazy, +20 from your monk class feature, which equates to +5 AC from Between the Raindrops. The AC bonus is at least comparable, and I think superior.

*Facepalm.* I mised the light armour use.


Also, the idea of adding Wisdom to AC has always been kind of silly for a couple reasons. From a mechanical perspective, it was the big difference for monks between needing decent physical abilities like any other combat class and suffering from crippling MAD. From a roleplaying perspective, monks are (at their core) brawlers, and that may or may not fit with a high Wisdom - taxing a character by at least a feat in order to even function within their character concept is just poor design. The Wisdom to AC thing is best jettisoned entirely unless you're going to build the whole class off of Wisdom. For that, consult Tome of Battle, page 15.

Heh heh, no argument here.



You may be right. Tide and Aethernox did virtually all of the design work for this class, so I can't speak for them as to why they made this choice. They're better qualified than I am to explain it. :smallsmile:

Then they mut be brought to account! :smallbiggrin:


Flurry is already a standard action. Check the description. :smallsmile:

3am is a bad time to review homebrews. :smallredface:


Mobility is a core aspect of the 3.x monk, and is practically the only thing that makes it unique compared to other 3.x combat classes. It's good to hear that it's working here.

Well it seem to be! ^^


That might be a bit high. Once you're talking that level of DR, you're completely destroying archers, who are already in enough trouble with a character that can move so quickly.

DR is really hard to balance right, because there's a fine line between making it good enough to matter and making it so good that other people don't matter. Also, we want to be careful with DR because casters generally ignore it, and they're the ones we're actually worried about in terms of balance. So far, it's looking like War-Marked, 3.52 Monk, 3.52 Barbarian, and the ToB classes with 3.52 access all stack up really nicely - we don't want to disrupt that balance at all.

I know just what you mean. My concern was just that DR that doesn't scale after level 10 seems bound to be either overpowered at level 10 or underpowered at level 20.


Thanks so much for the review, and also for the kind words. All of us appreciate them - but particularly the review, since so much of this is a work in progress. :smallsmile:

My pleasure! ^_^

ex cathedra
2009-09-20, 03:27 PM
Then they mut be brought to account! :smallbiggrin:
Ha, fine. As you wish.

The 10-level monk looks like a great improvement on the original, I like it a lot!
That's something that I'm sure everyone who put work into this revision is glad to hear. I really appreciate being told this, at least. Thank you. :smallredface:


Unless I missed something, this class gives no Wis to AC. If that's the case then the AC seems painfully low, I think the monk needs something more to boost AC, both before and after getting Between the Raindrops. Maybe just Wis to AC as normal monks.
This is true, but I think you may be underestimating their AC bonus as it currently is. I made a test character during development, and he/(later) she was generally able to stay within ~5 AC from her cap. Considering that the AC also affects touch AC, it's fairly decent. Also, MAD was something we were really trying to avoid. Currently, this is a Con/Str/Dex class, which is ideal when creating a class for melee (In my less-than-humble opinion, at least).


I think it would be better to specify that only certain class features are lost when burdened or in armour. Obsidian Mind is an example of one that shouldn't be affected.
You raise an interesting point. I'll bring it up with the others. :smallsmile:


The choice of alignments is good. I feel like you could make a great monk PrC based on the paths those alignments offer. It also encourages good rp.
I'm glad that you think so.


The amount that unarmed strikes improve by past level 10 seems too little to really be worth investing in. Maybe +2 rather than +1? But before level 10 the numbers look good. Steady and useful.
Remember that in many cases, +1 damage is roughly equal to an increase die size, as far as average damage is concerned. This becomes less accurate as die sizes continue to scale, especially when size increases are brought into the question. Regardless, boosting the damage is fairly simple, and that much bonus damage is fairly decent considering the amount of attacks it will apply to during a flurry.


I liked the numbers for Flurry. Oh and full BaB.
What a crazy, random happenstance! Me too!


Way of Iron is good, I allow a similar ability myself.
Excellent.


Obsidian Mind is relatively minor, but good for fluff and flavour.
Perhaps.


I think that Reckless Moon would be fine as an At-Will effect as opposed to a limited use one.
Freedom is a fairly powerful ability, in all fairness.


The wording in the first and last sentence of Between the Raindrops could be better. But the ability looks just right. Nice synergy with Fast Movement. You could possibly add a little skirmish damage in there too, or the ability to flurry as a standard action at some penalty.
Flurry is a standard action at a penalty. Secondly, the synergy between monk and skirmish damage is already good enough without immediately granting it to the monk.


Diamond Soul is great, but I'd suggest an immediate action, or free if done on your turn.
Uhm... I don't follow. I'm the one who originally added the ability, and it was a free action from the moment of its conception. Perhaps there were edits I missed.


The images created by Ten Mirrored Steps should be able to use some form of Aid Another to help you, or provide some other benefit, otherwise this ability wouldn't be as good as getting a Mirror Image spell cast on you.
This warrants some consideration, I think. Thanks.


Disciplined Apitude is great.
I like it, as well. Tide seems fairly good at this. :smallwink:


I'd make Run on Air's maneuverability Perfect, just to save the hassle of figuring out how you can and can't move. And it's awesome to see flight included.
Perhaps, but perfect maneuverability is fairly rare, especially at this level. And, personally, the maneuverability changes past Good don't really interest me.


On the capstone, it's a great ability, but I think you should make the value of the DR equal character level.
That's an interesting thought.


Loads of really flavourful and well thought out abilities! :smallsmile:
Thank you.

Cieyrin
2009-09-21, 09:39 AM
I'm liking the Wuxia feel that was approached in Oriental Adventures and seemingly much more realized here. My only thought is perhaps making your fix akin to Prestige Paladin, Ranger and Bard instead of making it a full class? Thus, they could start somewhere else and then effectively become very much monk-like for the rest of their career. This may create some rewrite issues but it hearkens a bit back to earlier edition monks and means only having to go 5 more levels, rather than going the full 20. More focus this way, I'd say, on the abilities and less on how to spread them out, if only by a little.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Human Paragon 3
2009-09-21, 11:35 AM
Why acid damage for the burning sky? It's clearly not acid damage since it overcomes all immunities. I would make it force or, even better, psychokinetic which actually DOES overcome all immunities.

About the ethereal/ghost touch debate, couldn't a monk who planned on going ethereal a lot just use the way of iron ability to get some ghost touch gauntlets?

Doc Roc
2009-09-21, 11:49 AM
Why acid damage for the burning sky? It's clearly not acid damage since it overcomes all immunities. I would make it force or,

Basically, it's acid damage because of the specific and weird wording of regeneration and a few similar abilities.


About the ethereal/ghost touch debate, couldn't a monk who planned on going ethereal a lot just use the way of iron ability to get some ghost touch gauntlets?

No, he'd need riverine gauntlets. Which means that stormwrack needs to be allowed and your GM needs to let you get ahold of an incredibly rare material.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-09-21, 01:09 PM
Basically, it's acid damage because of the specific and weird wording of regeneration and a few similar abilities.

Wouldn't a better phrasing then be something along the lines of "...overcomes all damage reduction, resistance, and immunity, and is treated as acid damage for the purposes of overcoming regeneration and similar effects"?

Human Paragon 3
2009-09-21, 02:46 PM
Ideas from the ToS Chat:



[15:43] Juris: a feat that lets you feint as a swift or free action once per round as long as you have at least one mirror image would be useful in specific builds, though. Like a rogue/monk mulitlclass, or monk assassin, or ghost faced killer
[15:44] Juris: could even re-do the aescetic feats to give you ten mirrored step advancement instead of stunning fist advancement
[15:46] Juris: but aescetic feats that let you use your TMS images in new ways and stack your levels for sneak attack, favored enemy, smiting etc. might be cool

Doc Roc
2009-09-22, 03:36 AM
I definitely think we could do some ACFs centered around this. I think we could also comfortably do interesting things that replace Ten Mirrored Steps. Thoughts?

Myou
2009-09-22, 09:12 AM
Oops! I only just say your reply, sorry!


Ha, fine. As you wish.

That's something that I'm sure everyone who put work into this revision is glad to hear. I really appreciate being told this, at least. Thank you. :smallredface:

My pleasure. :smallsmile:


This is true, but I think you may be underestimating their AC bonus as it currently is. I made a test character during development, and he/(later) she was generally able to stay within ~5 AC from her cap. Considering that the AC also affects touch AC, it's fairly decent. Also, MAD was something we were really trying to avoid. Currently, this is a Con/Str/Dex class, which is ideal when creating a class for melee (In my less-than-humble opinion, at least).

I missed the light armour use. :smallredface:


Remember that in many cases, +1 damage is roughly equal to an increase die size, as far as average damage is concerned. This becomes less accurate as die sizes continue to scale, especially when size increases are brought into the question. Regardless, boosting the damage is fairly simple, and that much bonus damage is fairly decent considering the amount of attacks it will apply to during a flurry.

I suppose so, yes. Thinknig more about the dice I think I agree with you.



Freedom is a fairly powerful ability, in all fairness.

2/encounter is normally all you need, but if a caster casts it they get it all encounter, so why limit the monk, and make them keep track of uses? At will really is fine.


Flurry is a standard action at a penalty. Secondly, the synergy between monk and skirmish damage is already good enough without immediately granting it to the monk.

I misread flurry. It was late.
Perhaps make a monk version of the swift hunter feat? :3


Uhm... I don't follow. I'm the one who originally added the ability, and it was a free action from the moment of its conception. Perhaps there were edits I missed.

When I read it, it was immediate, but I think it's been changed.


This warrants some consideration, I think. Thanks.

Well, it's jut a little harsh to have a class feature that emulates a low level spell, that doesn't even match the spell in power. As it is, it looks useful, but you'd never use it if you had a caster who could just cast the spell for you.


Perhaps, but perfect maneuverability is fairly rare, especially at this level. And, personally, the maneuverability changes past Good don't really interest me.

Well, I think Perfect fits when you're running on air - you get the same on land. More importantly, as a player ad as a DM I find the manuverability tables and rules to be annoying - it takes time just working out how you're allowed to move.


That's an interesting thought.

Equal isn't vital, it just needs to scale with effective monk level.


Thank you.

My pleasure! ^^

Doc Roc
2009-09-23, 02:00 PM
Numerous small but meaningful balance changes to ACFs and a few small buffs. Redoing Dance of Sun & Moon a little tonight to line the two options up a little more cleanly.

Signmaker
2009-09-24, 04:22 PM
Still have monastic training references in your tashalatora remake.

Doc Roc
2009-09-24, 10:36 PM
Fix'd that.. .hope to see more Monk matches soon.

Cieyrin
2009-09-25, 10:31 AM
Will Sapphire Fist be getting it's own feat for stacking with a Meldshaping class (probably Totemist or Soulborn, I'd imagine)?

Doc Roc
2009-09-28, 02:04 PM
Sapphire Fist:
The monk gains a base essentia pool of four, and opens the feet and hands chakras, but gains no capacity to shape melds. Her meldshaper level is half her class level, and stacks with any one meldshaping class.

Has been the language for a while. Could you explain what you mean about a feat?

Cieyrin
2009-09-29, 10:10 AM
Sapphire Fist:
The monk gains a base essentia pool of four, and opens the feet and hands chakras, but gains no capacity to shape melds. Her meldshaper level is half her class level, and stacks with any one meldshaping class.

Has been the language for a while. Could you explain what you mean about a feat?

I mean like how Initiating and Psionics got an expansionary feat. Monks naturally have Disciplinary focus but also have Ascetic Sage for counting Swordsage levels for advancing certain monk features. They have an ACF, Amethyst Heart, but also Tashalatora to count a psionic class for, again, advancing certain monk features. Sapphire Fist is there as an ACF but has no feat for naturally advancing their monk features while continuing to seek more Incarnum support. Why shouldn't a Monk/Totemist get the same treatment as a Monk/Psychic Warrior or Monk/Swordsage?

Lapak
2009-09-29, 10:49 AM
How is the effective monk level supposed to be calculated for abilities that aren't AC or unarmed damage? For example, the Careful Sun ability gained at level twelve - does that only come into play if you pursue Monk-type prestige classes, or does it kick in if I'm using something that increases unarmed damage, or something that increases AC bonus, or any of the above, or what?

Doc Roc
2009-09-29, 11:06 AM
There's a feat for stacking it with swordsage levels, and there'll be a similar one for incarnate levels soon. Flurry is intentionally difficult to progress, but anything that progressed old flurry will progress this. Dance of the Sun & Moon is super-hard to progress, because the class features it offers are pretty good.

Important note: Technically, we're supporting any psionic class. I'm torn about supporting totemist, and there's no reason to support soulborn. Thoughts?

Yakk
2009-11-26, 02:00 PM
Ten Mirrored Steps:
If you find any enemy that can survive a first hit, you can use ten mirrored steps to heal yourself to full.

This isn't a serious problem: it just means that the Monk can self-heal to a nearly unlimited degree. But instead of this mechanism, why not make it simple and obvious, instead of forcing monks to make an enemy in order to heal up?

Witty Username
2009-12-23, 12:55 PM
I like this monk rebuild.

I have a suggestion, as an ACL replacing of ten mirrored steps, an ability that gives the monk temporary HP or healing if he hits the same target more than once.
not as difficult to use, and could fit well with unarmed warrior of awesomeness