Okay, seriously

[Liwen]

Not that I don't appreciate the voice of reason that Blackwing has been to Vaarsuvius in the past few comics, but how can a bird be that wise? I know familiar gain magical bonuses to intelligence has their master grows, which explain how Blackwing understand a situation, can transmit spell and do maths, but ain't he supposed to have a very low wisdom score? Right now, he sounds just as wise as Durkon, which is supposed to have a wis score higher than 20 by now.

IT'S A BIRD :smalltongue:

[Spiryt]

Beacuse, he's that way. And that's all. :smalltongue:

But purely mechanically, ravens have 14 Wisdom, which is not at all very low, but in fact rather good.

So, apparently, conected with high, human like intelligence, some of them end like that.

[Undead Prince]

Not that I don't appreciate the voice of reason that Blackwing has been to Vaarsuvius in the past few comics, but how can a bird be that wise? I know familiar gain magical bonuses to intelligence has their master grows, which explain how Blackwing understand a situation, can transmit spell and do maths, but ain't he supposed to have a very low wisdom score? Right now, he sounds just as wise as Durkon, which is supposed to have a wis score higher than 20 by now.

IT'S A BIRD :smalltongue:

Actually, ravens get 14 WIS under D&D 3.5, which makes them wiser than average humans.

However, I don't think the bird is wiser than Durkon (or more intelligent than Vaarsuvius, for that matter). It merely has some common sense and a penchant for moralising (both of which are notably lacking in V, and Durkon had too low Charisma to connect with V properly), plus a lifetime of experience being V's familiar.

If you ask me, the bird's full of bad advice. Then again, I lean towards neutral evil and intelligence.

P.S. Ninja-ed on the Wisdom score 8=) Should have shot first and elaborated later 8=)

[Liwen]

wait, where did you get that 14 wisdom score for ravens? I've look the SRD, it's not there so I simply assume a animal as common as a raven wouldn't have very impressive stats.

[Undead Prince]

wait, where did you get that 14 wisdom score for ravens? I've look the SRD, it's not there so I simply assume a animal as common as a raven wouldn't have very impressive stats.

Look here: The Raven (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/raven.htm)

P.S. Ahha, at least I got the rebound 8=)

[Liwen]

wow, it also have 10 in constitution... Ravens are as tough as your average commoner with the added bonus of being harder to hit due to a score of 15 in dex... and a +4 modifier to attack, 14 AC

Okay they have one 1 hp, but I bet a Raven could take down a commoner pretty easily. Like when I make cats duel Kobolds. The cat wins about 75% of the time

[Katana_Geldar]

Quoth the raven.

[Hacktor]

IT'S A BIRD :smalltongue:

Technically the rules say it's not a bird... it's a highly intelligent magical beast..

[Katana_Geldar]

Even in real life, ravens and crows are rather clever.

[Spiryt]

Okay they have one 1 hp, but I bet a Raven could take down a commoner pretty easily. Like when I make cats duel Kobolds. The cat wins about 75% of the time

Geeez, beacuse especially on that low level of stats, D&D isn't suppose represent realistic situations and stuff very well.

If it bothers you, just say, "cat hits peasant, with it's paw but and it leaves a scratch on his leg, making him angry" and " peasant kicks the cat, and it flies away, screaming loudly" as a DM.

If PC ecounter commoners that like to fight with cats.

[Morty]

It's not like what Blackwing says is very wise anyway. Many people act like that with identical consequences, so it doesn't take a sage to tell them what went wrong.

[mockingbyrd7]

I find it amusing that you find it more objectionable that this bird is somewhat reasonable than the fact that it can talk, pop in and out of existence, and belongs to an elf. :smallbiggrin:

P.S. As the others have said, Blackwing isn't really all THAT wise. It's more common sense from an outside viewpoint. That's all V really needs.

[Acrux]

Many people act like that with identical consequences, so it doesn't take a sage to tell them what went wrong.

Actually, it's precisely because there are many people who act like that with identical consequences that it does in fact take someone with a high Wisdom to tell them what went wrong (or what will go wrong if they can be told ahead of time).

[Kaytara]

If you ask me, the bird's full of bad advice.

Really? Why is that?

[factotum]

Let's be honest here, a half-rotten turnip would probably have a higher Wisdom score than V, so in comparison to him, ANYTHING would appear like Yoda handing down pearls from on high. Anyway, as already pointed out, Ravens actually have an above average Wisdom score in D&D.

[Glass Mouse]

...
Okay they have one 1 hp, but I bet a Raven could take down a commoner pretty easily. Like when I make cats duel Kobolds. The cat wins about 75% of the time

Psfh! If it's Snuggles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93068), the cat wins 100% of the time!

[Forbiddenwar]

ALL animals are exceptionally wise in D&D (Wis 14-16). They need to be in order to survive. (Spot, listen, wildreness lore, etc). However, all animals have an intellegence of 1-2. (Exception being familiars and animal companions) These stats seem to match real life very well. (Ever tried to sneak up on a cat?) What motivates animals is not what motivates other creatures, so while the cat may win %75 of the time against a kobold, the cat (in its wisdom) prefers to just get away from the kobold 100% of the time.

[DoctorJest]

Even in real life, ravens and crows are rather clever.

VERY Clever. I just read an article in Science News not too long ago that Ravens and Crows (Corvus family) birds can improvise to use tools, even to solve complex problems, with no prior experience. They observed ravens dropping stones into a tube of water to raise the water level, so as to pluck some food floating on the surface, use a stick to prod some food out of a deep hole, and even use a stick to prod a LONGER stick out of a hole, to get some food out of an even deeper hole. All within about 2 tries each time.

It's interesting, because their propensity and ability for tool use is a good example of parallel evolution to sophisticated mammals that can do the same.

[ericgrau]

I think the bird is becoming too much of a straight man in a comic where everyone has quirks. He needs more baubles :smallamused:.

[The Recreator]

I think the main difference between Blackwing (and other familiars) and your average D&D animal is the Intelligence to put his observations gained from his Wisdom into an understandable and insightful form. Familiars gain Intelligence as their master gains levels (reference (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm) - scroll down for familiar progression table), so Blackwing has about the right INT/WIS combo to be parting advice just on par with Roy (give or take a few points).

Again, the point here isn't that Blackwing is especially wise or smart - it's that he's wiser than Vaarsuvius and intelligent enough to part his advice effectively (though he probably got a circumstance bonus towards Diplomacy - that 6 CHA isn't helping). Or, you could always chalk it up to Blackwing being V's familiar - whatever works.

[HandofShadows]

I think it hlps that V is thinking the same things Blackwing is saying amny times. Blackwing saying it just reinforces V's own thoughts.

[Harr]

If Blackwing was really THAT wise, he would have sensed that the beardy wizard had an ulterior motive for making V angry and told him that, instead of what he did tell him (which just falls into common sense everybody has).

[Thanatosia]

Bird did'nt speak anything mindblowing, it was simple facts. As someone else said, he's just an outsiders perspective. He's free to think on things while V is focused on the 'goal' of the moment - with great tunnelvision generaly speaking.

[Tiktakkat]

Like when I make cats duel Kobolds.

The Arena of CR < 1

Where cats duel kobolds, ravens assail commoners, and anything with the elite array is banned.

[Fitzclowningham]

I think the main difference between Blackwing (and other familiars) and your average D&D animal is the Intelligence to put his observations gained from his Wisdom into an understandable and insightful form. Familiars gain Intelligence as their master gains levels (reference (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm) - scroll down for familiar progression table), so Blackwing has about the right INT/WIS combo to be parting advice just on par with Roy (give or take a few points).

What was Blackwing's INT was when V was spliced? It had to be 50 or 60! That could have been useful...

[Bibliomancer]

If it bothers you, just say, "cat hits peasant, with it's paw but and it leaves a scratch on his leg, making him angry" and " peasant kicks the cat, and it flies away, screaming loudly" as a DM.

I didn't know cats could fly. Could it be a disciple of Snuggles? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93068)

[Spiryt]

I didn't know cats could fly. Could it be a disciple of Snuggles? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93068)

Possibly, but usually they fly thanks to the strenght of leg muscles. Not their own though. :smallwink:

[Charmy]

Given Vaarsuvius' level, that is a raven with 14 wisdom and 13+ intelligence.

Those are not mental stats to scoff at. The advice he's getting is from a being of considerably more than average mental abilities.

[Forbiddenwar]

If Blackwing was really THAT wise, he would have sensed that the beardy wizard had an ulterior motive for making V angry and told him that, instead of what he did tell him (which just falls into common sense everybody has).

anyone can fail a sense motive check.

[Dairun Cates]

IT'S A BIRD :smalltongue:

You do know that it has been proven that birds are actually some of the more intelligent beings of the animal kingdom, right? This is especially true of the ones that mimic sounds. They actually have a very high capability for learning. Actually, for that matter, pigs are among some of the more intelligent mammals out there. Really, there's just this weird kind of unfounded basis in humanity on animal intelligence based on how an animal looks and how easily distracted it is.

But I digress, considering the average party wisdom score for the OOTS is a 10, MAYBE a 12 (and yes, I'm counting Durkon in there), it's not a stretch to think that V's familiar would come off as one of the wiser members of the party. On top of that, life experience has a lot more to do with general ability to give advice than an abstract score. V's Raven has specific first-hand knowledge to this situation. That's generally going to trump any ability score.

So no, I don't think Blackwing is being a little to sm- OOH SHINY!

[TehSheen]

Ravens tend to be "smarter" then the average person, and this raven has been with an elf wizard that has a INT of 18(Or WIS, forgot.). Some of V's intelligence must have influenced Blackwing at least slightly. The reason we think Blackwing is smart is because he has a sense of understanding., unlike most members of the Order.

[Optimystik]

Keep in mind that the only other members of the Order likely to have 14+ WIS are Roy and Durkon, both of whom have shown to be quite insightful. So for Blackwing to be similarly thoughtful is well within mechanical/roleplay expectations.

[DoctorJest]

You do know that it has been proven that birds are actually some of the more intelligent beings of the animal kingdom, right? This is especially true of the ones that mimic sounds. They actually have a very high capability for learning.

Actually, I don't think mimicry relates to intelligence in birds in much of any capacity except for the ability for mimicry. Corvids are amongst the most intelligent birds (from a functional intelligence standpoint) and can't mimic at all.

But yes, birds are very intelligent. There are some studies which have shown that they even have a rudimentary ability to do basic arithmetic.

[Harr]

anyone can fail a sense motive check.

Would have been pointed out in the strip.

*IF* the raven had that high of a Wisdom score. Which it doesn't. So it wasn't.

They obviously both DID fail their Sense Motive checks, but it was not outwardly mentioned because it's nothing unusual for either of them.

[Shale]

Would a sense motive trick really register "he's manipulating you to try and learn your name so he can serve you divorce papers," as opposed to "he's deliberately trying to push your buttons"? It's not telepathy.

[Forbiddenwar]

Would have been pointed out in the strip.

Thankfully, not every bit of mindless minutiae is in the strip. That would be quite boring.



*IF* the raven had that high of a Wisdom score. Which it doesn't. So it wasn't.
Blackwing has an Int of 12 or 13 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#familiars) and a Wisdom of 14 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/raven.htm). What Blackwing doesn't have, is ranks. So against whatever turban guy had in CHA and bluff, Blackwing had a +2.

There is a logic flaw in your statement. Logically, you cannot use the absence of evidence (lack of a mention of a sense motive check) for evidence of absence (low wisdom). Try restructing your agrument to not use fallacies.



They obviously both DID fail their Sense Motive checks, but it was not outwardly mentioned because it's nothing unusual for either of them.

On second thought, it seems that Blackwing did succeed on her sense motive check, enough to know that the guy in the turban Had ulterior motives, but not enough (DC+5 or 10) to identify those motives.

[Spiky]

Actually, I don't think mimicry relates to intelligence in birds in much of any capacity except for the ability for mimicry. Corvids are amongst the most intelligent birds (from a functional intelligence standpoint) and can't mimic at all.

But yes, birds are very intelligent. There are some studies which have shown that they even have a rudimentary ability to do basic arithmetic.

Corvids can mimic if they choose to, and very well, but they seldom do. Mynahs and many parrots are far more likely to mimic.

The mimickry itself isn't especially related to intelligence. However, the way it is usually used does show a lot of ability. "Rudimentary" and "basic" are hardly adequate words. An African Grey can be considered as intelligent as an average 4-5 year old human, at least with some training.

[pflare]

Actually, ravens get 14 WIS under D&D 3.5, which makes them wiser than average humans.

However, I don't think the bird is wiser than Durkon (or more intelligent than Vaarsuvius, for that matter). It merely has some common sense

I]
something that V Lacks