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Capricornus
2009-09-17, 12:38 PM
I'm trying to wrap up my current 3.5 campaign, and the final battle should be with an evil deity. The party is:

L23 Dwarf Barbarian
L23 Human Poverty Monk
L23 Elf Druid/Heirophant
L22 Elf Wizard

They're somewhat optimized, and seeing as they have access to all books, their buffing and spellcasting power is frightening.

The enemy is: Elven deity of betrayal and vengeance.

It's a homebrew campaign world mixing custom and standard deities. The party will be getting aid from several deities who owe them favours as well, so if things start to go sideways on them I can mitigate the damage.

I've been reading the Deities and Demigods book, comparing to Faerunian deities, looking for one I could just sub in without too much effort. I've also been trying to create a custom deity using the Deities book, but there's a bunch of stuff in there that confuses me... For one, the book is 3.0, and since then I can't many deity stat blocks that are in 3.5. The only one I've found is Kyuss from the Age of Worms. Does such info exist, and can someone point me in its direction?

Also, the Deities book doesn't list any 'godly' bonuses to stats, so should I assume they get their stats from the Elite array + their class levels? It also says that deities have 20 outsider HD, do these replace some of their HD from class levels, or is that in addition? What would this do to a god's CR?

This is the first time I've DMed for a group of such high level, and have found that encounters tend to be too easy or too hard.

I'm having a hard time with creating a balanced encounter... so much so, I'm considering simply starting the last session with: "Put away your dice. You won't need them anymore. Let's RP this out."

Doc Roc
2009-09-17, 12:40 PM
The generally accepted rules are 3rd Party-ish, by Dice Freaks. I can't find a link right now, due to time constraints.

JeenLeen
2009-09-17, 12:52 PM
From what I've seen of stated-out gods (from Dieties and Demigods, mostly):

1. They have 20 outsider HD in addition to any from classes. This is only dieties who are 'originally' gods (or maybe have been gods for a long time.) For example, Vecna and Fharlargan--I know I'm butchering the spelling, but the God of Travel--only have class HD since they ascended relatively recently.

2. I don't think you can look at the CR too well. The salient divine abilities that gods can get can either break them or leave them powerless. I think there's one to kill any mortal nearby, no save. That's a TPK unless the other gods intervene. There might be another one to kill or hinder any god of lesser divine rank than you are.

3. Most gods are horribly un-optimized. The salient divine abilities, and the fact that most are also full casters in addition to other things, make them strong (or nigh unbeatable, depending), but I think an optimized party could slaughter a diety if said diety doesn't have divine abilities that make him immune to mortal attacks/magic or just able to kill the PCs.

Ranis
2009-09-17, 01:40 PM
Against an avatar of a god, maybe. Or one of the Lords of the Nine Hells. But a god? Absolutely no contest, bar none.

awa
2009-09-17, 01:42 PM
arn't most gods level 30+ anyway with literal armies of epic minions of their own? a 7 class level difference can be pretty rough not even counting the varies god stuff

arguskos
2009-09-17, 01:50 PM
On one hand, a god versus characters, statistically speaking only, is no contest. The characters devastate him without trying too hard. Most gods are HORRIBLY unoptimized, given that a god basically has a "lol I win" button (read: HE'S A GOD).

On the other, the god SHOULD roflstomp all over the character's faces. If you want examples of what gods should look like, look no further than Amiel's amazing work in the Homebrew forum: Of Deities and Demigods (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111306).

jiriku
2009-09-17, 01:52 PM
Yeah, might want to scale back to an avatar. What real god wouldn't call on a platoon of solars/balors or whatever if threatened? An avatar, on the other hand, might not have access to those resources.

Taht said, if you're fighting a god of betrayal and vengeance, you should have at least one defeated enemy and at least one longtime friend show up on the deity's side to oppose the players.

Clovis
2009-09-17, 01:58 PM
How do you expect your party to defeat the god? Is banishing for an indeterminate time acceptable? Or is the goal to annihilate the god? If latter, then your party needs to travel to the god's own plane of existence and kill hir there. If a god is put to negative hit points anywhere else in the multiverse shi returns to hir own plane to recover. This may take centuries by which time your epic party has long been dust, unless they become immortal themselves.
Or your party could annihilate all of the god's followers, thereby whittling away the power gained through worship. However, at some point the god will intervene with a vengeance!
The salient divine abilities of gods are just that, divine. Epic doesn't begin to cover it. For instance, there's an ability whereby a god controls all in- and oncoming traffic to hir plane. Good luck entering then with only epic magic. If, by DM fiat, you manage to breach the god's stronghold, your party will face lots of minions.
Perhaps they should consider to enlist the aid of an opposing god...

PinkysBrain
2009-09-17, 01:58 PM
Deities and Demigods is 3.0, but there is a 3.5 update.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a

Tokiko Mima
2009-09-17, 01:59 PM
According to Divine Ranks and Powers (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineRanksPowers.htm) you might have a shot at anything less then a greater deity, *if* you can assure that you are more powerful than the deity and can take them by surprise (otherwise gods always leave avatars.) You must kill them more or less in the same round, as once they have a chance to act, almost anything could happen.

Keep in mind that deities have weird rules, like if you say the deities name out loud, the deity hears the next hundred words after that. So you have to be very careful while researching them, or they'll be ready for you.

If the deity knows in advance through any means, you might as well quit. They'll send their followers after you until they die, and they'll even be able to co-opt other gods (because no god likes a godslayer) and they know you're mortal. As long as they keep you on the defensive, old age and ennui will set in. If the deity is a greater deity or better, count on your magic not working and your minds being read long before you even reach your goal.

Kobold-Bard
2009-09-17, 02:13 PM
I have seen somewhere that described God's base stats as 18 rather than 8 to account for their high stats, but it wasn't an official source.

For making Gods I might suggest this (http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gth669h/TGoH/TGoH9.pdf), it's basically the Deities and Demigods rules with some tweaks as well as updated to 3.5. The building rules start at p.98

Whether this will work all depends on what Salient abilities you give the enemy, after all Mass Life and Death pretty much seals the battle. Maybe rp-ing it is a good idea.

JeenLeen
2009-09-17, 02:22 PM
According to Divine Ranks and Powers (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineRanksPowers.htm) you might have a shot at anything less then a greater deity, *if* you can assure that you are more powerful than the deity and can take them by surprise (otherwise gods always leave avatars.) You must kill them more or less in the same round, as once they have a chance to act, almost anything could happen.

Keep in mind that deities have weird rules, like if you say the deities name out loud, the deity hears the next hundred words after that. So you have to be very careful while researching them, or they'll be ready for you.

If the deity knows in advance through any means, you might as well quit. They'll send their followers after you until they die, and they'll even be able to co-opt other gods (because no god likes a godslayer) and they know you're mortal. As long as they keep you on the defensive, old age and ennui will set in. If the deity is a greater deity or better, count on your magic not working and your minds being read long before you even reach your goal.

It sounds like his party is friendly with at least some other gods, and I imagine the god in question is a Lesser or Intermediate at best.

If the other gods lend favors which amount to suppressing the more powerful divine abilities of the god you're fighting, you stand a good chance.

Capricornus
2009-09-17, 04:03 PM
Yes, the deity in question is an Intermediate Deity. The party has indeed earned the aid of several deities (Pelor, Wee Jas, Moradin, Roknar) and at least two epic creatures/demigods.

I was thinking that each would neutralize/reduce one of the evil goddess' salient divine abilities in order to give the party a chance. Also, they have been supporting an uprising in the home territory of her worshipers to reduce her power. They have been given access to an epic ritual spell that will temporarily suppress her immortality, and once they defeat her, they have a means to imprison her. She is also being distracted by an Elder Evil.

Thanks very much for all the suggestions/links/info. This will make my job a lot easier.

My main issue right now is ability scores. I don't know if the designers just arbitrarily added stat points to the gods in Deities and Demigods, or if there was a method...