Thoughts on the Varsuvius sub-arc...

[SwordsageErrant]

Personally, I appreciate V's snazzy new look and the raven on their shoulder. What are your (potentially deeper) opinions on all that's happened?

[Optimystik]

I just love it that Blackwing is calling him out, and more glimpses of life in Ivyleaf are always welcome.

But now I'm intensely curious as to what the diamond dust is for...

[Kaytara]

I just love it that Blackwing is calling him out, and more glimpses of life in Ivyleaf are always welcome.

But now I'm intensely curious as to what the diamond dust is for...

Agreed on the first point, as for the second... Well, V said that he and Durkon need it, so Durkon's involvement likely excludes those funny theories about how V was going to cast Nondetection to keep others from detecting his alignment as evil!evil!evil!.

[BloodSquirrel]

Personally, I appreciate V's snazzy new look and the raven on their shoulder. What are your (potentially deeper) opinions on all that's happened?

Personally, I'm wondering if the divorce is actually a fake created by the guy whose ass V kicked out of revenge. Some kind of special cursed item (He did, after all, offer V the scroll before he knew who V was).

[Trebuchet]

Things aren't going well for V. I like Vaarsuvius, but I am glad the Giant doesn't automatically give everyone a happy ending. I recently read War and XPs in book form, and ended up in tears when Miko died. I hope V doesn't end up cut in half and unreconciled, but for all the ill V did, it may indeed take a long time for the lessons to sink in. I'm liking it.

And I agree on the new appearance and presence of Blackwing being very good.

[Trobby]

I appreciate the introspection into V's life, but I worry that V doesn't carry the comic very well on his/her own. V is primarily the straight man (or woman), and while Blackwing (Wow, I almost typed ANOTHER Raven familiar's name) is doing hies best to be a comic foil, it's not as strong as it could be...dramatic though. I'll give the Giant credit for making a scene filled with emotion.

[Optimystik]

Personally, I'm wondering if the divorce is actually a fake created by the guy whose ass V kicked out of revenge. Some kind of special cursed item (He did, after all, offer V the scroll before he knew who V was).

He quite obviously knew who V was. He just needed V to identify himself as part of the service of process. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_of_process) If papers are served improperly, "I was not served" becomes a valid defense in court.

And the idea that it is a fake makes no sense. How would this stranger have known about the turmoil between V and his wifehusbandmate, and what would he gain by serving a false notice?

[BloodSquirrel]

He quite obviously knew who V was. He just needed V to identify himself as part of the service of process. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_of_process) If papers are served improperly, "I was not served" becomes a valid defense in court.

And the idea that it is a fake makes no sense. How would this stranger have known about the turmoil between V and his wifehusbandmate, and what would he gain by serving a false notice?

If he knew who V was, wouldn't he have served V instead of provoking him/her to a fight in the magic shop? Hell, it would have even given him a easier way to cheese V off. I don't see any signs at all that he knew who he was dealing with.

As for how the item works, I was thinking along the lines of something that writes itself once it's given to somebody. He wouldn't ever have to know what it says. The false notice would lead to trouble for whoever he gave it to (in this case, perhaps leading V's mate to think that V is initiating the divorce).

[David Argall]

But now I'm intensely curious as to what the diamond dust is for...
It was likely just a MacGuffin, and will have no further influence on the story. It's absence can be important, but when it is present, it is just another spell component which rarely gets mentioned.



If he knew who V was, wouldn't he have served V instead of provoking him/her to a fight in the magic shop?
Now I am not sure the logic of the scene can withstand serious examination, but there is a difference between knowing and knowing, especially where the law is concerned. The server is dealing with a stranger, and thus needs special proof he is dealing with the right stranger. The mere fact this elf meets the description you have been given may not be enough in the eyes of the court. Much stronger identification if the stranger acknowledges the name or gives it.

[Shale]

Yes, but there have to be less life-threatening ways to get him to say his name. Like, say, walking up to him and asking "aren't you Vaarsuvius, the famous elven sage?", off the top of my head.

I think the idea with the scroll being cursed is that it would display whatever the reader least wants to see.

[Optimystik]

If he knew who V was, wouldn't he have served V instead of provoking him/her to a fight in the magic shop? Hell, it would have even given him a easier way to cheese V off. I don't see any signs at all that he knew who he was dealing with.

That's easy. He had no way of being sure that V would just take and read a scroll from a stranger. Notice that he didn't even fight back or defend himself when he surely knew that V was going to assault him magically. V lets his guard down, takes the scroll... served.


As for how the item works, I was thinking along the lines of something that writes itself once it's given to somebody. He wouldn't ever have to know what it says. The false notice would lead to trouble for whoever he gave it to (in this case, perhaps leading V's mate to think that V is initiating the divorce).

If that was the case, he would have no way of knowing that the scroll would become a legal document instead of, say, a fake ransom note, and thus have no reason to say "served." It still makes no sense that the white wizard is anything other than a process server.


I think the idea with the scroll being cursed is that it would display whatever the reader least wants to see.

"Served" and "witnessed" means that both the man and his familiar knew it would take the form of a legal document. That's a lot of information for a stranger to know.

[spargel]

That's easy. He had no way of being sure that V would just take and read a scroll from a stranger. Notice that he didn't even fight back or defend himself when he surely knew that V was going to assault him magically. V lets his guard down, takes the scroll... served.


I would trust the stranger even less if I'm seriously angry at that stranger.

[Optimystik]

I would trust the stranger even less if I'm seriously angry at that stranger.

But if you curbstomped them into the mud, and they bargained against more with a magic item? V is precisely arrogant enough - even now - for such tactics to work.

[spargel]

But if you curbstomped them into the mud, and they bargained against more with a magic item? V is precisely arrogant enough - even now - for such tactics to work.

And would a stranger know about V enough to know that she wouldn't accept the scroll if he just handed it to her, but would accept it if he got curbstomped? Simply telling her that he has a scroll for her would have worked too.

[Code Black]

He was just assuming based on what he knew of wizards, given that they're stereotypically an arrogant lot, he probably had his approach perfected with use against tons of wizards.

Plus, it's funny and ironic.

On the other hand, V is naturally dismissive of people who (s)he doesn't consider important to hir, so someone walking up an saying "I have a scroll for you" would probably not work. On the other hand, someone walking up and saying "I have a scroll of utmost important to your quest" would probably make V more suspicious than intrigued.

[spargel]

He was just assuming based on what he knew of wizards, given that they're stereotypically an arrogant lot, he probably had his approach perfected with use against tons of wizards.


He couldn't find an approach that doesn't involve getting himself beaten up?



On the other hand, V is naturally dismissive of people who (s)he doesn't consider important to hir, so someone walking up an saying "I have a scroll for you" would probably not work. On the other hand, someone walking up and saying "I have a scroll of utmost important to your quest" would probably make V more suspicious than intrigued.


Three things.

Saying "Served and witnessed" and then suddenly teleporting away isn't a good way of avoiding suspicion.

Even if V was suspicious, she wouldn't just ignore the scroll. Aren't there any magical ways to tell if the scroll is cursed or something?

And he couldn't just say "I have some legal papers concerning your mate"?

[Kalbron]

I appreciate the introspection into V's life, but I worry that V doesn't carry the comic very well on his/her own. V is primarily the straight man (or woman), and while Blackwing (Wow, I almost typed ANOTHER Raven familiar's name) is doing hies best to be a comic foil, it's not as strong as it could be...dramatic though. I'll give the Giant credit for making a scene filled with emotion.

I think that's partially due to the fact that when V got made the main focal point, the story put on its steel capped boots and started kicking, with the occasional funny scene (usually at V's expense).

Anyone else from the Order that gets put under the spotlight tends to get a kicking, plus eventual benefits, and jokes are made at their expense while they also get to make jokes about others. The variety certainly helped the Elan/Haley/Belkar portions when they were the focus I found, whereas V's arc has been largely monotone.

[BloodSquirrel]

Now I am not sure the logic of the scene can withstand serious examination, but there is a difference between knowing and knowing, especially where the law is concerned. The server is dealing with a stranger, and thus needs special proof he is dealing with the right stranger. The mere fact this elf meets the description you have been given may not be enough in the eyes of the court. Much stronger identification if the stranger acknowledges the name or gives it.

"Hmm.... that elf looks like the person I'm supposed to serve this to."

"Excuse me Sir/Maam, are you V?"

"(Long quote explaining that, yes, he/she is)"

"Served"

Vs.

"I think that's the elf I'm supposed to bring this to. I'll start a fight with herm, then trick hir into telling me hes name and taking the scroll."


That's easy. He had no way of being sure that V would just take and read a scroll from a stranger. Notice that he didn't even fight back or defend himself when he surely knew that V was going to assault him magically. V lets his guard down, takes the scroll... served.

See above. Besides, if you're delivering a summons, it really isn't considered your job to trick the person into taking it anyway possible. You present it to them, and if they refuse to take it, you let the authorities handle it.

Honestly, it being pure coincidence that he just happened to be holding the summons for V, and really had no idea who he was dealing with, is far more likely.



"Served" and "witnessed" means that both the man and his familiar knew it would take the form of a legal document. That's a lot of information for a stranger to know.

No, not really. He knows that it will take the form of a legal document, or possibly a summons specifically, and that's it.

[veti]

As far as I know, diamond dust is used in three standard spells:

Nondetection
Restoration
Stoneskin


Nondetection seems the likeliest - to stop Xykon following the Order by scrying. But there's also the chance that V is researching some completely new spell with it - we know she likes to do that.

[Shale]

We already know that Durkon is researching a new spell. Protection from negative energy has a thematic overlap with Restoration, so it makes sense that it might use the same materials.

[Optimystik]

And would a stranger know about V enough to know that she wouldn't accept the scroll if he just handed it to her, but would accept it if he got curbstomped? Simply telling her that he has a scroll for her would have worked too.

I'm not saying Turban went about it the best way possible, but the situation was surely calculated to make V take the scroll from him while identifying himself.

As for simply telling him: "Are you the elf, Vaarsuvius? I have a scroll for you," might have indeed worked; but remember that the last time Kyrie saw him, V was possessed by demons, hunting and being hunted by dragons, and capable of disappearing at a moment's notice. Trusting someone in that state of mind to sit still and accept a summons may not have seemed like a good idea to Kyrie, and by extension to his process server.


He couldn't find an approach that doesn't involve getting himself beaten up?

He probably could have.


Three things.

Saying "Served and witnessed" and then suddenly teleporting away isn't a good way of avoiding suspicion.

Even if V was suspicious, she wouldn't just ignore the scroll. Aren't there any magical ways to tell if the scroll is cursed or something?

And he couldn't just say "I have some legal papers concerning your mate"?

1) With the papers successfully (and properly) delivered, avoiding suspicion is no longer a priority.

2) Only Analyze Dweomer (6th level) can automatically identify cursed items - unlikely that V would have that prepared even if he does know it. At V's level, Identify would have a 14% chance of picking up a curse. Detect Magic would do nothing helpful.

3) Again, he could have. As for why he didn't, we'll have to see him (or Kyrie) again to find out.


No, not really. He knows that it will take the form of a legal document, or possibly a summons specifically, and that's it.

A cursed item that takes the form of a legal document the possessor would be least wanting to see STILL requires very specific information. In other words, how would Turban have known V was in any kind of legal trouble?

[JoseB]

Easier reason than all of that:

Rule of funny.

That's all. It is funnier to see a process server that has come across as an arrogant fellow wizard being blasted than doing it in the safer but boring way outlined earlier ("are you so-and-so?" "Yes" "Served")

[David Argall]

"Hmm.... that elf looks like the person I'm supposed to serve this to."

"Excuse me Sir/Maam, are you V?"

"(Long quote explaining that, yes, he/she is)"

"Served"

Vs.

"I think that's the elf I'm supposed to bring this to. I'll start a fight with herm, then trick hir into telling me hes name and taking the scroll."

Now the first way works fine if your target doesn't know there is a summons, or doesn't really care. The problem is when the target knows about the suit, and doesn't want to get served, in which case...

"Excuse me, Elf, are you V?"

"Quickened greater invisibility, Quickened Expeditious Retreat."

And our process server is standing there all alone with the summons still in his pocket.
And he almost certainly will not get another chance.

Now the odds seem to be that he should not have gone to the trouble, but every so often, somebody can be difficult about being served, and V has the ability to be very difficult.

[Kaytara]

A plausible explanation for the elaborate serving process is one Lissou mentioned - it was meant to serve as a test, as well. Perhaps the wizard had instructions to attempt to goad V into attacking. If V attacks, it means he hasn't changed, in which case the scroll should be served. If V doesn't attack, he's changed and deserves a second chance and the scroll should not be served.

[Asta Kask]

It also serves a story purpose - show that while V&Blackwing may be doing their best, V still has a short temper. But he's trying.

[Zanaril]

I wonder if the point of recent events was to write out V's family, and if so it doesn't bode well for V. On one hand, The Giant probably doesn't want to focus for too long on one character, and V has been given a lot of screen time. There' are other backstories to delve into; Haley's father and Elan's father come to mind.

On the other hand, this seems a bit... rushed. Not V's decision, but apart from the Instant Summons joke, there's no reason to have the divorce feature so soon, unless it's just to get the whole issue out of th way. But it does suggest that something is going happen that pivots on V having cut those family ties.

[spargel]

I'm not saying Turban went about it the best way possible, but the situation was surely calculated to make V take the scroll from him while identifying himself.


...Turban is just a jerk, isn't he?



As for simply telling him: "Are you the elf, Vaarsuvius? I have a scroll for you," might have indeed worked; but remember that the last time Kyrie saw him, V was possessed by demons, hunting and being hunted by dragons, and capable of disappearing at a moment's notice. Trusting someone in that state of mind to sit still and accept a summons may not have seemed like a good idea to Kyrie, and by extension to his process server.


Getting a person who you think is mentally unstable to attack you is a better idea?



1) With the papers successfully (and properly) delivered, avoiding suspicion is no longer a priority.

2) Only Analyze Dweomer (6th level) can automatically identify cursed items - unlikely that V would have that prepared even if he does know it. At V's level, Identify would have a 14% chance of picking up a curse. Detect Magic would do nothing helpful.

3) Again, he could have. As for why he didn't, we'll have to see him (or Kyrie) again to find out.


1. What's the stop V from just burning the paper or whatever you had in mind from suspicion?

2. If she knows it the spell, she could just do it later. Or if she's really cautious, she could just repeatedly cast identify until she's sure beyond reasonable doubt that there's no curse.

3. Yes, we probably will.



A cursed item that takes the form of a legal document the possessor would be least wanting to see STILL requires very specific information. In other words, how would Turban have known V was in any kind of legal trouble?


"Served and witnessed" means that he at least knows it's a legal document about V. He doesn't necessarily have to say she's in trouble.

[David Argall]

1. What's the stop V from just burning the paper or whatever you had in mind from suspicion?
The rules of the game.
V, or anyone wanting to avoid a summons, is wanting to avoid being in court, and that means keeping the court in doubt that V knows about the court case. Once V physically holds the summons, the court reasons that V either knows about the case, or is willfully ignorant, and the court can proceed to make a judgment. It doesn't matter if V never reads it. The court acts as if he had.
Until she is served, the court assumes there is doubt and that the doubt must be resolved in V's favor. But once the paper hits your body, or the server can swear he knew it was you and he told you he had the paper, you are served and you are "pregnant". You can deny it all you want, but the court moves forward and will produce a baby you very much don't want unless you do something.

[Rotipher]

Considering how one of the last beings to come looking for an elf named Vaarsuvius was a vengeance-crazed dragon, V probably isn't going to admit vir identity lightly. Aside from the Order not wanting to attract too much attention to their quest -- Xykon's not the only villain who might covet the power of the Gates, and the Scribblies kept their own missions secret with good cause -- our elf has just lived through a hard lesson that just because ve disdains to think much about others, doesn't mean those others aren't thinking or planning nasty things about you.

As for the process server, that guy probably gets menaced by the unwilling recipients of his paperwork all the time. Why else would the divorce court send a spellcaster who can teleport, rather than some 1st level Expert? The dude in the white robe probably gets hazard pay for serving dangerous high-level adventurers such documents, and has worked out a tactic for placing them in the recipient's hands, that at least lets him get back home alive.

[spargel]

Considering how one of the last beings to come looking for an elf named Vaarsuvius was a vengeance-crazed dragon, V probably isn't going to admit vir identity lightly. Aside from the Order not wanting to attract too much attention to their quest -- Xykon's not the only villain who might covet the power of the Gates, and the Scribblies kept their own missions secret with good cause -- our elf has just lived through a hard lesson that just because ve disdains to think much about others, doesn't mean those others aren't thinking or planning nasty things about you.


V still ends up admitting her identity pretty carelessly. You'd think that she would try to avoid letting the person she just beat up know about her identity incase that person comes for revenge.



As for the process server, that guy probably gets menaced by the unwilling recipients of his paperwork all the time. Why else would the divorce court send a spellcaster who can teleport, rather than some 1st level Expert? The dude in the white robe probably gets hazard pay for serving dangerous high-level adventurers such documents, and has worked out a tactic for placing them in the recipient's hands, that at least lets him get back home alive.

Provoking those high level adventurers into attacking you is surely not really a good way of accomplishing that objective.

[Katana_Geldar]

The most interesting thing I found about the whole V sub arc, starting with the dragon and ending with the summons, was the whole idea that adventurers had families. I'd not experienced in D&D so I don't know how many people put some sort of family into their character's backstory that they leave in order to become an adventurer. But I guess there would be the assumption that they'd be just NPCs to hover in the background and help you out when you need free stuff like here (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0265.html).

From a roleplaying perspective, the DM just hasn't picked up V's backstory as an interesting plot point, they put it on steroids. Do players expect the NPCs attached to them to be yes-men? What happens if they're given as much depth and motivation as PCs are? And could they even be sort of antagonists if they don't agree with what the PCs are trying to do in order to save them?

I for one am looking forward to Burlew's commentary on this arc when the book comes around as it's likely he'll have something to say on this.

This whole subplot has given V some much-needed depth. Not that V was two-dimensional before, but it's a real shot in the arm. My hat is off to you, Burlew, if you read this.

[Trobby]

^I think I've said it before, but I really like the idea that the character with the least personal depth during the first arc of the story (V's character pretty much ended on the note "I am an elf with lots of magic") now has equal if not greater backstory depth to the other characters.

Family is a difficult thing to roleplay...they don't always agree, but then again, they might. There are ties between them that may or may not be permanent, and affects that they may or may not have on characters.

I think Rich played that point very well...though I keep getting the feeling that OotS has crossed a line, starting with the very serious story arc of V going all "Hell's Revenge", one that it can never pull back from again.

[Rotipher]

Provoking those high level adventurers into attacking you is surely not really a good way of accomplishing that objective.

And yet, it did confirm V's identity without a doubt, by goading vir into revealing vir powers and name openly. Not a bad way to avoid the court's ruling being contested on the grounds that, say, the "recipient" to whom the process server gave the paperwork could've been a doppelganger.

[Zanaril]

I think Rich played that point very well...though I keep getting the feeling that OotS has crossed a line, starting with the very serious story arc of V going all "Hell's Revenge", one that it can never pull back from again.

Sometimes lines need to be crossed. :smalltongue:

[spargel]

And yet, it did confirm V's identity without a doubt, by goading vir into revealing vir powers and name openly. Not a bad way to avoid the court's ruling being contested on the grounds that, say, the "recipient" to whom the process server gave the paperwork could've been a doppelganger.

But it's not a good way to ensure that you have a good chance of returning alive.

If they really want to be that sure, than how would they know that it's not another wizard with the same name, or someone else impersonating V?

Do you honestly believe that provoking wizards into attacking you would be a good way of delivering legal papers to them?

[maxon]

The problem is when the target knows about the suit, and doesn't want to get served, in which case...

"Excuse me, Elf, are you V?"

"Quickened greater invisibility, Quickened Expeditious Retreat."

And our process server is standing there all alone with the summons still in his pocket.
And he almost certainly will not get another chance.

Now the odds seem to be that he should not have gone to the trouble, but every so often, somebody can be difficult about being served, and V has the ability to be very difficult.

Exactly, the joke is about the real-life problems of serving summons.