Test of Spite Exhibition: Claudius and Phoenix

[PhoenixRivers]

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Walls, Floors, ceilings are stone.
Ceiling is 60 feet overhead.

How many buff rounds are we doing?

[Claudius Maximus]

I want all days, but I wouldn't want more than 4 rounds. 5 seems excessive, considering I'm a warrior type.

That map works just fine. I'll take the bottom half.

Starting position (OO)
F12, altitude 30' (i.e. 5 cubes separate me from the floor)

[PhoenixRivers]

Fair enough. If you're askin for 4 rounds, you got 4 rounds.

My Buffs:Round 1: Schism (7 pp spent)
Round 2: Vigor (Augmented to 13pp): Gain 65 Temp HP
Round 2(Schism): Touchsight (Augmented to 9 pp): Gain touchsight (80 feet)
Round 3: Greater Blink
Round 3(Schism): Danger Sense (Augmented to 11pp, overchannel +1 level)
Damage for overchannel: [roll0] (58 Temp HP remaining)
Round 4: Greater Invisibility
Round 4 (Schism): Force Screen (Augmented to 9pp) +6 Shield bonus to AC

Top half, for me. Starting location: F4, ground level

My current sense modes are: Touchsight, with a rather generous range of 80 feet.

[Claudius Maximus]

Buffs:
All day: Oil of Greater Magic Weapon +5 on Greatsword

Round 1: Activate Touchsight Tattoo, Assume Leading the Charge stance
Round 2: Activate Animal Affinity Tattoo for +4 Strength and Dex
Round 3: Activate Offensive Precognition Tattoo, Activate Law Devotion
Round 4: Activate Greater Concealing Amorpha Tattoo, Activate Animal Devotion for +6 Strength, move to starting position.
Initiative: [roll0]

I have Touchsight too, with an even more generous range of 90 feet.

[PhoenixRivers]

Then you'll note me, intermittently, at F4. I also have Greater Blink :)

[Claudius Maximus]

I'm in F12, 25 feet from the ground. You see a draconic humanoid with silver scales. His left leg is larger than the right, and it looks like he would walk with a limp if he weren't floating. He wields a greatsword, and has no visible armor.

[PhoenixRivers]

Ok, as I have an invisibility effect up, you see nothing. However, you know I'm there via touchsight, and I'm short. About the rough size of a halfling or gnome.

[Claudius Maximus]

You should roll initiative or, if you automatically win, take your turn.

[PhoenixRivers]

Sorry bout that.

Initiative: [roll0]

[Claudius Maximus]

Oh wait... I have Greater Concealing Amorpha up. You don't see that description, but you can feel it. You see only a glob of ectoplasm.

[PhoenixRivers]

My nonvisible actions: Schism: Manifest Energy Emanation, Augmented to 10 pp. Choose Cold.

Make some gestures, and noise (Spellcraft DC 16 to look in spoiler):True Strike

No movement. Your turn.

[Claudius Maximus]

I automatically succeed on the Spellcraft.

I kick off the wall and charge you.

My destination is F5, 15 feet up. If I reach there without incident (i.e. no triggered actions or immediate counters and such):
I stop 15 feet from you and my arms extend like tentacles, swinging my greatsword at you.

Attack vs normal AC: [roll0]
Miss chance for Blink: [roll1]
Low misses. Touchsight might reduce my miss chance to 20%, since it lets me perceive invisible creatures. Not entirely sure though.

Edit: Talk about bad rolls.

If that hits:
Damage: [roll2]
Crit threat if necessary: [roll3]
Crit extra damage: [roll4]

If you are hit, it triggers a Greater Dispel Magic effect at CL 15.
I can make multiple attacks during a charge; this is only the first. I want to roll them up separately since they can have effects that can alter the conditions of future attacks.
Turn is not over.

Edit: OO:
I charged with full power attack, using leap attack (I automatically succeed on the jump check). I put my PA penalty to AC with Shock trooper.
Is my charge uninterrupted?

[PhoenixRivers]

I do have an immediate action.

I manifest Anticipatory Strike when you reach F8. (9 power points spent). I take my next turn now, but skip it when it comes around.

My next turn: Cast Ray of Dizziness on you.

Touch Attack: [roll0]
This ignores any concealment miss chances.
If it hits, you will be restricted to either a move or a standard action, each round, for the next 13 rounds. This effect allows no saving throw.

Unobservable action:Schism: Manifest Energy Stun -Electricity, overchanneled for 2 levels, to ML 12, and fully augmented for 12 pp.
Damage to me: [roll1]

The air in front of you erupts in an electrical ball of energy.
Electrical Damage: [roll2]
Reflex save, DC 30 for half.
If reflex save fails, then also make a Will save DC 30, vs 1 round of Stun.

Finally, the Move action I haven't used yet: Move to B5.

I do believe the movement will invalidate your charge, as you may no longer move in a straight line. If not, the dizziness and the stun effects each have a decent shot to either stop the action or make it no longer legal to perform.

[Claudius Maximus]

My arm stretches out and tries to backhand you when you use Ray of Dizziness.

Touch Attack: [roll0]
Concealment (low misses): [roll1]
Since I can perceive invisible creatures, I think I only have a 20% miss chance.

If it hits, your ray is canceled, and you may change your other actions if you want.

Edit: Looks like it hit. Are your other actions still the same?

[PhoenixRivers]

If you're at F8, you're at no less than Altitude +20. Me at F4, ground level, means that you have 30 foot reach. (Every other square costs 2 squares for distance)

Is that correct?

[Claudius Maximus]

The backhand can reach you there, yes.

[PhoenixRivers]

Electrical action is unchanged. Saving throw, please.

[Claudius Maximus]

I choose to fail my reflex save, and activate my Mark of Justice to deal as much damage to you as you did to me. This does not count as an immediate action.

Will save (need a nat. 20): [roll0]

Edit: I am stunned.

[PhoenixRivers]

I take 27 electrical damage, no problem.

Normally, I'd go next, but I used my next action.
You're stunned on your next round.

So your stun wears off, I go, and we're all back to normal.

Non observable Action:Schism manifests Death Urge, Augmented to 11pp. Overchannel for +1 level. [roll0] to myself.
Manifest a power, psicraft DC 19 to lookDeath Urge, Augmented to 15pp, Overchanneling for +2 Manifester Level.
Take [roll1] damage.
Manifesting defensively. Concentration check: [roll2]

You'll need to make 2 saves.

Will DC 23 and Will DC 25

[Claudius Maximus]

I think I might be able to act as normal. Here's my case:

The stun has a duration of 1 round. This begins during my last turn. Thus, it ends one round later at the beginning of my turn. Since it ends at the beginning of my turn, I can act.

I am not entirely sure about this; spell durations have always been very unclear to me. If you wish to contest this, bring it up in Q&A or in the ToS thread or something.

[PhoenixRivers]

It's no big deal. It's after the turn that I skipped. I can preface the action with Anticipatory Strike as an immediate action. I'll still go before you.

EDIT: You are correct, however. Durations end immediately before the initiative count they were started on. That was my bad for missing it.

[Claudius Maximus]

Didn't you use an immediate action to use it the first time? I don't think you can do that again barring trickery. I also think it might have an effective one round cooldown. This is such a confusing power...

[PhoenixRivers]

Didn't you use an immediate action to use it the first time? I don't think you can do that again barring trickery. I also think it might have an effective one round cooldown. This is such a confusing power...
Here's the breakdown:
I act at initiative count 13. I take my action.
You go at initiative 4. During your action, I anticipatory strike.
I take my turn (swift/immediate actions refresh) Your round continues, and you're stunned.
Initiative count 13 passes. << Cooldown for anticipatory strike is over.

You unstun at initiative count 4.

Anytime between initiative count 13 and 4, it's fair game. I can't use it again until after the count for the turn I skipped passes. Once that happens, it's good to go. Also note, that power gives you an entire turn. That means my immediate/swift actions reset.

Basically, all it does is, as long as I'm willing to spend 11pp per turn, it lets me take one round out of order (last round), and then keep up with the initiative count thereafter. As soon as I stop paying the 11pp, I lose the turn for reals. I'll likely use a Temporal Acceleration to mitigate that, however.

[Claudius Maximus]

I see what you're saying, and it seems good, but keep two things in mind:

First, I act on initiative 8, not 4. The rolling script I use bolds the natural number, not the result.

Second, and more importantly, is that using an immediate action outside your turn counts as your next swift action, so when you use Anticipatory Strike, you don't really get another swift (or you do, but it's used up to manifest the power in the first place). Note that the power description mentions you getting a standard/move or a full-round, but no swift/immediates.

So you can use your Anticipatory Strike on initiative 9 or whatever, but you don't have a swift action. Does this change your turn at all, or have you accounted for that?

[PhoenixRivers]

The 1st line of the ability:

You take your normal action for the round at the time you manifest this ability, rather than waiting for your turn to come up in the initiative sequence.

My normal action for the round is Standard/Move/Swift. I don't have the swift, because Anticipatory strike was an immediate, and costs that, but it clears that immediate action out. From the time that round ends, I can use an immediate action (just not anticipatory strike, until after initiative count 13 passes).

The only reason it doesn't include "swift action" is that by using Anticipatory Strike, you spent the swift action for your next turn, which is this turn. After that turn ends, though, that cost is paid.

The exact text you're reading is:
You can take a standard action, a move action, or a full round action, just as you could if you were taking your action at your normal place in initiative order.
It doesn't mention swift, because you can't take a swift if you used an immediate action between your two rounds, and, by using the power, you fulfill that. You can, however, use an immediate once the turn ends.

This power took me about 5 readings to really understand how it worked. Once I did (along with Synchronicity), I thought, "I'd be crazy not to have this, it works a lot like a beefed up Celerity."

[Claudius Maximus]

This is so confusing. I still think my position is correct, but I assume you wouldn't be arguing yours if you didn't feel the same way about your own. I think we should get get another pair of eyes on this, preferably a DM's. Could you ask for a ruling from another DM?

I'm going to sleep now; will continue sometime tomorrow.

[PhoenixRivers]

Gathering information for DM convenience.

Chronology of actions thus far (spoilered to keep it clean, any may look):
My initiative count: 19
Claudius's Initiative count: 8

My first action (Init 19) True Strike and Energy Emanation (Cold)

Claudius (Init 8) Attempts to charge.

My Immediate action: Anticipatory Strike. Take my next action (Round 2, Init 19) now. Opponent Stunned, I move. Opponent cancelled 1 spell cast)

Round 2:

Initiative count 19 passes.

Opponent Acts on initiative count 8, stun will have worn off.

Point of contention: I am attempting to manifest Anticipatory Strike between initiative count 19 and initiative count 8. Arguments are above, spell text included here:

Anticipatory Strike:Manifesting Time: Immediate Action

You take your normal action for the round at the time that you manifest this power, rather than waiting for your turn to come up in the initiative sequence. In subsequent rounds, your place in the initiative order does not change--you change the time when you act for this round only. You can take a standard action and a move action, or a full-round action, just as you could if you were taking your action at your normal place in initiative order. You can't activate this power if you're Flat-footed, and you can't use the power a second time until after your next turn has passed.
For example, if you normally act on initiative count 15, you could use this power to act again on initiative count 12, but this means that you wouldn't be able to act on the next round at initiative count 15 (since you've already used that turn's actions), and you wouldn't be able to use this power again until after your next turn (that is, after your next round's initiative count 15).

The example situation, paraphrased to our initiative counts: if you normally act on initiative count 19, you could use this power to act again on initiative count 8, but this means that you wouldn't be able to act on the next round at initiative count 19 (since you've already used that turn's actions), and you wouldn't be able to use this power again until after your next turn (that is, after your next round's initiative count 19).


I attempted to use the power on initiative count 8. I did not act again on next round's (round 2) initiative count 19. I cannot use the power again until after next round's (round 2) initiative count 19. I am attempting to use it sometime between initiative count 18 and initiative count 9. This is, as best I can tell, in line with the power's text and the example provided by the power.

There is a current point of contention over immediate action availability. Claudius disputes that I only get a standard/move or full-round, and it doesn't reset my swift action, as a normal turn would (1st paragraph, 3rd sentence of power). I contend that the spell explicitly states that it gives me a normal turn (rather, it steals a normal turn from my next round), which would reset my swift action, and thus, mean I could take immediate actions again.

That's the entire argument in a nutshell. I believe I've been unbiased, but you're welcome to scroll up and see his exact posts for his points.

[Claudius Maximus]

I'm no longer arguing that you can't manifest the power. I'm saying that when you take the turn the power gives you, you lack a swift action for that turn because you used it to manifest the power. After your AS turn ends, you will have another immediate action, but you can't take a swift during your turn.

[PhoenixRivers]

Correct. I didn't perform a Swift action on my AS turn. After the AC turn, and after the CD of Aniticpatory Strike, I used an immediate action to manifest it again. Here's my full round 1 AS turn:

Standard: Cast Ray of Dizziness (Negated somehow by opponent)
Standard (Schism power): Manifest Energy Stun, augmented.
Move: Move to B5.
<end turn>

<you're stunned>
<initiative count 19 passes>

As is shown, I'm not taking a swift on my turn, I'm taking 2 standards via a buff round manifestation of the Schism power. The schism actions are entirely mental in nature, and thus are non-observable.

After my AS turn (and the AS cooldown), I'm manifesting another immediate action Anticipatory Strike.

[Claudius Maximus]

I'll accept that.

Going back to your turn, you are not threatened by me, so you don't have to manifest defensively. The canceling effect has a longer range than my reach.

Will saves (need 20's)

DC 23 effect: [roll0]

DC 25 effect: [rolv]1d20[/rollv]

[Claudius Maximus]

Broken roll vs DC 25 effect: [roll0]

Edit: Whatever effects these are supposed to have do not seem to take hold.

OO:
Use my Warmarked ability to delay failed will saves. These both take effect next turn.

[PhoenixRivers]

I'll manifest defensively anyway. It's auto-success, and there's no penalty for doing it, and a possible penalty for not doing it.

EDIT: My move action: Move to B11, done.

[Claudius Maximus]

I move to G11, ground level.

If nothing triggers:
I assume a bright blue glow, and a conduit of positive energy forms between us.

Blink miss chance (pleaserollhigh): [roll0] Gah!

If you are affected:
You take [roll1], or half that on a successful DC 31 fortitude save.
Tell me the results. My turn is not over.

Edit: OO
Activated Mark of the Lumi and traded 150 hp for 50d6 damage. I have 180 hp left. Stupid blink...

[PhoenixRivers]

Results are nothing, unless the ability's damage type is actually listed as positive energy (I've looked over the Warmarked class, and I don't see an ability that actually deals positive energy damage, though some seem themed that way).

[Claudius Maximus]

I assume the blink caused it to miss?

Anyway, I use White Raven Tactics on myself, and charge you.

If it is not interrupted:
I use leap attack during my charge. I stop 10 feet from in D11 you and my arms extend like tentacles, swinging my greatsword at you.

Attack vs normal AC: [roll0]
Miss chance for Blink: [roll1]
Low misses. Touchsight might reduce my miss chance to 20%, since it lets me perceive invisible creatures.

If that hits:
Damage: [roll2] Add another 52 if leap attack succeeds.
Crit threat if necessary: [roll3]
Crit extra damage: [roll4] Add another 26 if Leap attack succeeds.

If you are hit, it triggers a Greater Dispel Magic effect at CL 15.
I have more attacks to make, since I have pounce. I weant to settle this one first though.

[Claudius Maximus]

Bah, forgot a roll. Open if my charge is uninterrupted:
Dc 20 Jump check for Leap Attack: [roll0]

[PhoenixRivers]

That'll end the match.

After looking in some of your spoilers, I have the distinct impression that a few of the Warmarked abilities went a bit far to the power side of the scale. Too many at will's, or range touch/no save abilities, or ones with so much damage, they might as well be.

Light of Lumi, and the spell canceller come to mind. Both could seriously use scaling down.

Light of Lumi has no real cap (it should, based on character level. Definately no more than 2d6/character level, which is the most advantageous scaling spell in existence - Disintegrate, even so, Disintegrate offers a save, not for half, but for 5d6. As is, that ability is more powerful than any damage spell created.)

Spell Canceller should have some method to restrict spells, but should allow a save/concentration/something to resist.

EDIT 2: Match analysis:
Warmarked getting, out of the box, damage capable of ending a fight in 1 round, without pounce (1st attack was upwards of 200 damage), enough HP to be nearly immune to the same, and the ability to shrug off magical effects yield a combination that is likely overpowered. The character I built is likely T 1.5. For casters/manifesters to get a couple of the abilities Warmarked get out of the box requires significant investment. Warmarked need little to no investment. For example. Pounce + Touchsight + Spell-cancellation, here. That's available with no feat expenditure (and the class gets gobs of those as well). These are things that need to be carefully balanced for other classes, and they get handed to a warmarked as door prizes.

It's my personal opinion that the class needs to be very closely looked at. This is a class, that, with little to no optimization, can keep up with the most carefully optimized wizards.

[Claudius Maximus]

Match analysis refutation:
The only affect the Warmarked had on my damage output was the +2 strength I got from Mark of Fury. I could do much more than that with a Barbarian. Pounce can be obtained though any number of methods.

Mark of the Lumi has a cap of half your HP sacrificed. If my character didn't have 40 constitution, it would not have been able to do nearly as much damage.

Mark of the Lash's spell canceler is equivalent to Wings of Cover, a 2nd level spell. It's slightly better in that it can cancel any spell, but it does have a range limitation.

Touchsight was from an item that anyone can get.

I was under the impression that the Warmarked is supposed to be more powerful than other melee classes, and it is supposed to be competitive with optimised spellcasters. This one was moderately optimised, though in retrospect I made a few dumb choices (I probably shouldn't have put an expensive dispel effect on an attack that does 200 damage, for instance).

Some of the abilities do need to be looked over, sure. I'm not saying the class is perfect or complete, but it isn't in my opinion too overpowered compared to casters.

[PhoenixRivers]

Match analysis refutation:
The only affect the Warmarked had on my damage output was the +2 strength I got from Mark of Fury. I could do much more than that with a Barbarian. Pounce can be obtained though any number of methods.

Mark of the Lumi has a cap of half your HP sacrificed. If my character didn't have 40 constitution, it would not have been able to do nearly as much damage.

Mark of the Lash's spell canceler is equivalent to Wings of Cover, a 2nd level spell. It's slightly better in that it can cancel any spell, but it does have a range limitation.

Touchsight was from an item that anyone can get.

I was under the impression that the Warmarked is supposed to be more powerful than other melee classes, and it is supposed to be competitive with optimised spellcasters. This one was moderately optimised, though in retrospect I made a few dumb choices (I probably shouldn't have put an expensive dispel effect on an attack that does 200 damage, for instance).

Some of the abilities do need to be looked over, sure. I'm not saying the class is perfect or complete, but it isn't in my opinion too overpowered compared to casters.

Cap = half life? That's not a cap. That's a limit. The most powerful spells out there do no more than 2d6 per caster level on a failed save. There are almost no saves without a static cap in the neighborhood of 1-2d6 per caster level. The fact that the cap is currently variable put the ability as doing about twice the damage of Meteor Swarm, which is way too high. Many boosts for casters require intricate builds with metamagic reducers. This? Requires a good con score. The warmarked 'easy' build is up there in damage with a moderately optimized incantatrix. I'm personally of the opinion that without something truly exceptional, we shouldn't be seeing a single, unaugmented ability doing 50d6 to up to 3 targets. The ability is based on Con, augmented by con, and the only limiting factor is also based on con. Too much synergy within the ability, to say nothing of what happens when other abilities are blended with it.

I don't disagree that it needs to be competitive with moderately optimized spellcasters. As is? It's not. That build has enough HP to withstand any caster build currently allowed in ToS, and the ability to shrug off magic effects long enough to enact one of its several 1 shot abilities. That's not "competitive". That's the offense of a Incantatrix, and the defense of a Iot7V. That's not balance.

While I see no problem in giving Warmarked a stout offense, or a stout defense, it shouldn't be easy to get both, along with enough 'special teams' (vision/movement modes, etc) to choke a donkey. That's again, not balance.

Further, it's not the equivalent of Wings of Cover. It's a heckuva lot better. It affects spells that don't depend on cover. It is usable every other round, for a net limit per day of... 7200 uses in a day. Find me the Sorceror spell list with that many slots, and I'll concede that it's only a "little" better. Further, the Wings of Cover spell affects the caster only.

This effect is an active attack on an opponent, and as such, at the very least, should offer a saving throw, or a skill check, to negate.