Tanks in D&D

[An Enemy Spy]

I'm running a game where my characters will be involved in an interdimensional war. One of the worlds uses modern technology and I was wondering how I'm supposed to make tanks and helicopters using the 3.5 rules. Can you help me out?

[Glyphic]

D20 modern has a nice section on vehicles.

You can access most of it here. Can't remember if they have tanks, but they have helicopters.

d20 Modern SRD (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd)

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Yes, d20 Modern is good for modern vehicles and weapons, but it's flawed (by a strict interpretation of the rules, if you attack a vehicle with full autofire from an UZI, the people inside may be damaged without damaging the vehicle).

If you want to make up your own, you should start by thinking about what you want these items to do. What is it that makes it a TANK? How much damage should it deal? If you hit it, how much does it ignore you?
The role of the tanks in your game ought to guide you as much as the reality of tanks in the real world. Are your party members supposed to be able to deal with the technological vehicles, or are they meant to run away?

Think about big DR in place of high AC. Slow movement. Devastating (but slow) main armament. Dangerous secondary arms. (Many tanks in the real world have machine guns. d20 Modern has been called flawed when it comes to modelling autofire, but the system is nice and simple: REF save or take damage.) Are people inside a tank vulnerable? Not very, that's the point. Assume it gives total cover, and has its own HP and hardness / DR.

Anyway, as a base, I'd say the tank is a Huge vehicle; Natural armour +10; DR20/-; Move 20'; Attacks: trample, machine gun, cannon (every 1d3+1 rounds)
The damage and HP of the vehicle really depend on what you want out of the tank in game.

[Dragatus]

Anyway, as a base, I'd say the tank is a Huge vehicle; Natural armour +10; DR20/-; Move 20'; Attacks: trample, machine gun, cannon (every 1d3+1 rounds)
The damage and HP of the vehicle really depend on what you want out of the tank in game.

20' seems pretty slow.

From Wikipedia:

A tank can travel at approximately 40 kilometres per hour (25 mph) across flat terrain and up to 70 kilometres per hour (43 mph) on roads, but due to the mechanical strain this places on the vehicle and the logistical strain on fuel delivery and tank maintenance, these must be considered "burst" speeds that invite mechanical failure of engine and transmission systems. Consequently, wheeled tank transporters and rail infrastructure is used wherever possible for long-distance tank transport. The limitations of long-range tank mobility can be viewed in sharp contrast to that of wheeled armoured fighting vehicles. The majority of blitzkrieg operations were conducted at the pedestrian pace of 5 kilometres per hour (3.1 mph), that only was achieved on the roads of France.[29]

And that was nearly 70 years ago. I imagine modern tanks are more reliable and would have a higher average speed. I'd make them 30' per round.

[Myou]

by a strict interpretation of the rules, if you attack a vehicle with full autofire from an UZI, the people inside may be damaged without damaging the vehicle


That makes perfect sense. :smallconfused:

Helicopters have open sides.

[Silverscale]

If you take a look at the Mobile Redoubt from A&E Guide pg 56, you'll see that it has a speed of about 10 with clumsy manuverability, AC 3 overall, section hp 100 (Hardness 5) section AC 3, and a ram attack that does 9d6. Though certainly not a tank by modern standards, you could use that as a baseline.

How about this

Modern Tank
Huge Vehicle
Hit Points: 100d12 (800)
Initiative: as Driver/Gunner
Speed: 20ft (4 squares) Clumsy, or Burst Speed
Armor Class: 18 (-2 size, +10 Armor Plating)
Base Attack: as Gunner
Attack: Machine Gun +6 ranged (2d6 +5, x3)
Full attack: 4x Machine Guns +6 ranged (2d6 +5, x3)
Space: 15x20
Special Attacks: Trample, 50in Cannon
Special Qualities: (Not sure what to give a tank)

Burst Speed: 40ft (8 squares) for 1d4 +1 rounds. Must be a straight line.

Armor Plating: The entire tank is covered in sections of hard steel armor plating giving those inside full concealment. Each 5ft section of plating has DR20/-, 10 Hardness, 50 hp, and a break DC of 30

Trample: 9d6 melee?

50in Canon: +2 ranged (5d6 +10) can only be used once every 1d4 rounds

I'm not very good at stating out vehicles but hopefully this is a good start

[Spiryt]

If you are planning real "modern tank", (say, WWII one) Silverscale, then burst speed, DR and hardness are all too low.

With such damage recutions, tank fronts could be pretty often damaged by perfectly mundane, unmagical swords used by rather mundane users(Power attack + Leap attack is sufficient), which doesn't smell good - I would raise it all a bit.

[J.Gellert]

That makes perfect sense. :smallconfused:

Helicopters have open sides.

And some bullet-sized holes wouldn't really damage even a heavier, closed vehicle anyway.

[Mando Knight]

Also, you can't just break a single piece of armor off. I'd make the armor intrinsic to the vehicle, and increase the DR: unless you have something that's made to penetrate tank armor, you can't penetrate it reliably...

Furthermore, its machine guns are too light... give them static modifiers to damage, and increase the rate of fire. I'd also boost the main cannon to at least 6d6 +mod damage. Most likely at least 10d6, since it can probably blast through a 2-in iron door.

[Silverscale]

As I said, I'm not very good at stating out vehicles. I just whipped that up as a starting point that obviously needs improvement.

If I actually had a copy of D20 modern, I'd have a better idea of stats for the machine gun, etc.

[Spiryt]

Most likely at least 10d6, since it can probably blast through a 2-in iron door.

Well that's the problem with stating such things in D&D, while vast amount of greatsword types in Europe and other parts of the world can be somehow (with big *wink wink*) fit into "2d6 19-20x2", the sheer amount of different tank models, cannons, calibers, shells, masses etc, cannot be fit in one "10 d6" :smalltongue:

Stil, it's possible that tank cannon wouldn't blast trough 2 inch door, but rather blast it off from the hinges (the weakest part surrenders first)

At least that's (http://www.wargamersheadquarters.com/images/D/XX507A.jpg)* how T 34 often looked like after meeting 88 round at mid ranges. Turret is unpenetrated, but not where it should be.

Sorry, but I can't find actual photo, even though I saw it at least few times. :smallsigh: Maybe tommorow.

[The Witch-King]

From: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19878290/Battle_Tank_vs_Large_Mecha_HELP?post_id=338700746# 338700746

This is what I got for my Abrams with de D20 Mecha rules, is the 1st time I use this rules so please correct me if you see anything wrong

M1 Abrams (Main Battle Tank)

Type: Vehicle

Class: Main Battle Tank

Size: Gargantuan

HP: 100hp (120 Mecha points)

Occupants: 4 (40 Mecha points)

Cargo: 425lb (3 Mecha points)

Armour: 30 (150 Mecha points) Equipment bonus +8 (64 Mecha points)

Defence: 14 (10 +8 Equimpment Bonus -4 Size)

Strength: NONE

Land Speed: 65kmph (7 Chase squares/350ft) (32 Mecha points)

Handling: +0 (-4 Size +4 Base) (20 Mecha points)

Initiative: -2 (-4 Size +2 Base) (10 Mecha points)

Special Abilities: Chobham Armour (30 Mecha points),
Reactive Armour (8 Mecha points),
Infrared vision 4 miles (20 Mecha points),
Stabilization Gear (10 Mecha points),
Targeting Bonus +4 (20 Mecha points),
Radar 4 miles (32 Mecha points)

Exotic Abilities: NONE

Defects: Noisy (-5 Mecha points),
Road Vehicle (-4 Mecha points),
Volatile (-32 Mecha points),

Weaponry:
Weapon-----/120 mm M256 smoothbore cannon/ 12.7 mm M2HB machine gun
Damage-----/10d12---------------------------/ 4d12
Critical------/20------------------------------/ 20
Type--------/Ballistic------------------------ / Ballistic
Rate of Fire--/Single--------------------------/ Automatic
Range-------/600ft---------------------------/ 150ft
Qualities-----/Armor Penetrating 2, Extra Ammo/ Autofire
Restrictions--/Crew Serve, Slow Firing---------/ Exposed
Cost---------/130MP ------------------------/ 52mp

Required Feats or Skills: Drive

Cost: 700 Mecha points ($4,350,000/Purchase DC 46)

[Spiryt]

Rather nice, but without complicating things too much, it should have some simple "High Explosive" option for main cannon.

Perhaps dealing less damage, without AP, but simply in some radius.

[ericgrau]

Yes, d20 Modern is good for modern vehicles and weapons, but it's flawed (by a strict interpretation of the rules, if you attack a vehicle with full autofire from an UZI, the people inside may be damaged without damaging the vehicle).

If you want to make up your own, you should start by thinking about what you want these items to do. What is it that makes it a TANK? How much damage should it deal? If you hit it, how much does it ignore you?
The role of the tanks in your game ought to guide you as much as the reality of tanks in the real world. Are your party members supposed to be able to deal with the technological vehicles, or are they meant to run away?

Think about big DR in place of high AC. Slow movement. Devastating (but slow) main armament. Dangerous secondary arms. (Many tanks in the real world have machine guns. d20 Modern has been called flawed when it comes to modelling autofire, but the system is nice and simple: REF save or take damage.) Are people inside a tank vulnerable? Not very, that's the point. Assume it gives total cover, and has its own HP and hardness / DR.

Anyway, as a base, I'd say the tank is a Huge vehicle; Natural armour +10; DR20/-; Move 20'; Attacks: trample, machine gun, cannon (every 1d3+1 rounds)
The damage and HP of the vehicle really depend on what you want out of the tank in game.

Total cover negates spread attacks entirely; no need to roll. Cover (anything in the way, even just a person) gives +4 AC and +2 to reflex save. Improved cover (arrow slits, gun slits or similar where only small amount can get through) gives +8 AC and +4 to reflex saves. And in most situations with improved cover and some with regular cover you can duck behind something for total cover, though you couldn't fight back either.