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Tyndmyr
2009-09-17, 09:23 PM
In my quest to improve my optimization-fu, I can't help but notice how central feats are...Obviously, getting more of them is clear win for any hopeful cheese-monkey. What legitimate means exist of getting extra feats or skill points *other* than via prestige classes?

Sure, plenty of items grant bonuses to skills...which is good, but isn't as powerful as gaining new class skills and raw points, especially if those items take slots. Likewise, you can swap feats for skill bonuses via able learner, skill focuses, etc, but in general, it appears to be a relatively weak trade.

The big one is extra feats, I guess. Sure, it's possible to optimize class progression to get a large volume of feats, but the selection is often limited, and the chaos shuffle requires either a reasonable pile of gold and access to an appropriately leveled caster, or a caster with the appropriate spells in the party. Anyone have some clever tricks Im missing?

Kylarra
2009-09-17, 09:41 PM
C Scoundrel has locations you can visit to get "free" feats, mostly various skill foci.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-17, 11:55 PM
Mmm, one of the few books I don't yet have. But hey, free feats are free feats, I'll hunt it down. =)

Kylarra
2009-09-18, 12:12 AM
One of my favorite bonus feats from there is Agile Athlete which allows you to switch STR for DEX on climb and jump checks.

tyckspoon
2009-09-18, 12:15 AM
If you can access a Chaos Shuffle in some way, you can transmute limited bonus feats into Open Minded from the Expanded Psionics Handbook for 5 skill points/feat. If the last level you took before doing so was Factotum, you can throw those new skill points into anything at all.

If you feel like having your DM laugh at you, make your first level Swordsage. An obvious editing error gives them x6 skill points at first level instead of x4, and the Tome of Battle 'errata' didn't change it, so it's official.

BobVosh
2009-09-18, 12:31 AM
Flaws from unearthed arcana and they are on D20srd. Each one gives a minor penalty; in return you get a feat.

Draken
2009-09-18, 08:54 AM
Taint from Heroes of Horror gives bonus feats in the moderate and severe thresholds (for corruption nd depravity separately, for a total of four bonus feats). These can be any feats. But the taint penalties can be kinda severe.

Straight from Elder Evils, you may pledge your allegiance to an entity whose sole purpose for existance is the end of the world as you know it (best case, some are just the end of the world). For one bonus feat, plus another bonus feat for every four hit dice (or five it dice, I'm AFB right now). These have to be vile feats, but there are no actual penalties.

From FC II, you can enter a Faustian Pact for... two or three bonus feats. The downside is that you damn your soul to hell.

RMS Oceanic
2009-09-18, 08:59 AM
Don't forget the most powerful source of extra feats: Houserules! :smallsmile:

Kurald Galain
2009-09-18, 09:01 AM
In my quest to improve my optimization-fu, I can't help but notice how central feats are...Obviously, getting more of them is clear win for any hopeful cheese-monkey. What legitimate means exist of getting extra feats or skill points *other* than via prestige classes?

Off the top of my head,
(1) flaws
(2) the Fiendish Codex allows your character to sell the soul to a devil in exchange for e.g. feats
(3) legacy weapons and/or custom magical items can provide feats
(4) certain locations provide temporary feats

Grumman
2009-09-18, 09:08 AM
C Scoundrel has locations you can visit to get "free" feats, mostly various skill foci.
The most useful one is probably the Otyugh Den, since Iron Will is so useful as a prerequisite. And it's permanent.

JeenLeen
2009-09-18, 09:27 AM
Taint from Heroes of Horror gives bonus feats in the moderate and severe thresholds (for corruption nd depravity separately, for a total of four bonus feats). These can be any feats. But the taint penalties can be kinda severe.


One 'trick' with the Taint is that there are ways to remove taint. There is nothing officially stating that you lose your bonus feat from crossing a threshold if you cross back.

Therefore, you could enter a new taint category, gain a feat, heal somewhat, get tainted again, gain another feat, and so on. Very obviously abusing the system, of course.

In Fiendish Codex or Fiend Folio, there are two spells that can work together to let you change your feats. One [evil] forces the target creature to receive a fiend-related feat; the other (unaligned) 'cures' the person of that, letting them gain a feat they qualify for. If you are ever in epic level games, I see no RAW reason this couldn't let you turn all your feats into epic feats.
...upon thinking, maybe this is that 'chaos shuffle' folk were mentioning.

kamikasei
2009-09-18, 09:29 AM
...upon thinking, maybe this is that 'chaos shuffle' folk were mentioning.

Yup. It's the pair of spells embrace the dark chaos and shun the dark chaos, and the really hilariously abusive application is to turn, say, an elf's racial proficiencies into proper feats.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-18, 04:41 PM
It just so happens that I am playing an elf. Well, a gray elf, but they gain all the usual elf benefits, so it should work equally well on them. The biggest issue is the level of those spells. Being a level five, I've got neither the ability to cast them nor the money to buy them.

That said, it's an awesome trick once you do get access.

Getting Iron Will for free is amazingly powerful...especially if you intend to go incantrix or something. Hmmm.

Damning your soul to hell for a few feats doesn't sound like such a bad deal. After all, what cheesemongering optimizer really plans on allowing his character to die?

KellKheraptis
2009-09-18, 07:51 PM
A note on locations...all told, I counted a conservative 256k gold for 56 feats. All permanent ones too. Now DCFS that into whatever you want :D Well worth the gold IMO.

Korivan
2009-09-18, 08:59 PM
Don't forget the most powerful source of extra feats: Houserules! :smallsmile:

I've been toying with the idea of some ULTRA-RARE books that, each one only works on an individual once, and would give one or more of the following: +1 or 2 bonus to ability score (happens just like when you level up), 1 feat that the character meets the prereqs for, 4 bonus skill points. There would only be a handfull of these out there and it would take an adventure on itself to find and retrieve them. That and they only work either so many times, or only once per X amount of time. Haven't quite balanced them out so they havn't made an apperance yet. But, its an idea.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-18, 09:11 PM
I've been toying with the idea of some ULTRA-RARE books that, each one only works on an individual once, and would give one or more of the following: +1 or 2 bonus to ability score (happens just like when you level up), 1 feat that the character meets the prereqs for, 4 bonus skill points. There would only be a handfull of these out there and it would take an adventure on itself to find and retrieve them. That and they only work either so many times, or only once per X amount of time. Haven't quite balanced them out so they havn't made an apperance yet. But, its an idea.

If Mongoose books are allowed, gnomes have "gnomish notes" that can grant up to two feats per level. On top of the usual of course.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-19, 10:22 AM
Also in mongoose books, sorcerers have some lovely feat and feat like options they can get via sacrificing some of their many spell slots, or ever better, familiar progression.

We've done house ruled books that added either a skill focus feat, or changed one feat from a cross class to a class skill. You can only ever use one per character, though.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 10:38 AM
Also in mongoose books, sorcerers have some lovely feat and feat like options they can get via sacrificing some of their many spell slots, or ever better, familiar progression.

We've done house ruled books that added either a skill focus feat, or changed one feat from a cross class to a class skill. You can only ever use one per character, though.

Mongoose actually does Sorcs justice...not only do they get a usable Quicken that isn't restricted to Epic levels like the Sudden one is, they also get a feat similar to the 5th level ability of Ultimate Magus called Metamagic Cradle. Hmm...I wonder how wicked THAT would be with a means of adding NI spells known and then charging that AND an Eldritch Tapestry...

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2009-09-20, 07:11 AM
A note on locations...all told, I counted a conservative 256k gold for 56 feats. All permanent ones too. Now DCFS that into whatever you want :D Well worth the gold IMO.Um, whoa. Can I get an accounting of this? Please!?

Tyndmyr
2009-09-20, 10:06 AM
As would I. Apparently, that would involve much more than just Complete Scoundrel...but an average of 4k gold per feat sounds very, very reasonable.

Kylarra
2009-09-20, 10:09 AM
I'm afb, but I think he's attempting to revisit sites for multiple feats, except iirc you can only visit them once for the feats. Alternatively, of course, you could work with your DM to create more areas using the CScoundrel legendary areas as bases.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-20, 01:29 PM
I'm afb, but I think he's attempting to revisit sites for multiple feats, except iirc you can only visit them once for the feats. Alternatively, of course, you could work with your DM to create more areas using the CScoundrel legendary areas as bases.

Right, and IIRC, not all the benefits were permanent, plenty of the easier to get ones expired after a year. I could see the Otyugh Hole or w/e having many locations though, since it's described in such a way, but for most of them, it's be a stretch.

And, even with free revisiting, I dont recall CS having 56 feats in total. He might be thinking of visiting, chaos shuffling the feat to another, then revisiting for the same feat again, but in addition to being mechanically very dodgy, it would seem to repeal the limit entirely. There's gonna be something Im missing.

Kylarra
2009-09-20, 02:07 PM
All the feat grants were permanent iirc, it's the "secondary" benefits that wore off.

Jastermereel
2009-09-20, 05:04 PM
While it certainly isn't official, I'm a fan of the "Bonus Feat" found at D&D Wiki: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Bonus_Feat_(3.5e_Feat)

Bonus Feat [General]
You gain a bonus feat.
Benefit: You may select any feat whose prerequisites you meet.
Normal: You may select any feat whose prerequisites you meet.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new feat or a feat that can be gained multiple times. Its effects only stack if the selected feat's effects stack. You may select Bonus Feat as the bonus feat granted from the Bonus Feat feat.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-20, 06:21 PM
Wow, that just made my head hurt.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2009-09-20, 06:22 PM
Extra Skills: um "cosmopolitan"? or for extra skill points. "Nymphs kiss" gives you one each level. . .

Extra feats: "Vow of poverty" gives you an extra feat at every other level after taking it and TONS of other benefits but only exalted feats and there are HUGEMONGOUS penalties to taking vow of poverty so it's pretty much useless. . . unless you a monk then its awsome.


OH for extra feat like things: try skill tricks from complete scoundrel, those are awesome and they only cost 2 skill points. Cant have more than a number based on your level and can only learn 1 per level.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-20, 08:20 PM
I keep seeing references to a Metamagic Storm....apparently it grants an additional metamagic feat. Can't find out which book it's in, though.

Definitely useful.

tyckspoon
2009-09-20, 08:24 PM
And, even with free revisiting, I dont recall CS having 56 feats in total. He might be thinking of visiting, chaos shuffling the feat to another, then revisiting for the same feat again, but in addition to being mechanically very dodgy, it would seem to repeal the limit entirely. There's gonna be something Im missing.

Your soul is inevitably bound to one of the Chaotic hells (not Hell, 'cause that's Lawful, but.. you know what I mean.) Mechanically? Nah, the Chaos Shuffle is silly like that. You get similar results with any source of extra feats.

sofawall
2009-09-20, 08:58 PM
I keep seeing references to a Metamagic Storm....apparently it grants an additional metamagic feat. Can't find out which book it's in, though.

Definitely useful.

Comp Mage, and the metamagic feat may not be used for prereqs.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2009-09-21, 10:59 AM
Hmm is there a way in this board to simply not see the posts from certain users? I hate it when someone says something very specific but never gets back to it. :smallannoyed: And yes its related to this thread

Eldariel
2009-09-21, 11:08 AM
Hmm is there a way in this board to simply not see the posts from certain users? I hate it when someone says something very specific but never gets back to it. :smallannoyed: And yes its related to this thread

Try posting in the Board Issues-forum; it pretty much exists for things like this. I'm fairly sure there's a personal Ignore-list here somewhere.

Person_Man
2009-09-21, 11:16 AM
Echo the Active:

Human Factotum (forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=791436) 3/Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) 2/Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1) 5/Warblade 3

At this ECL you get:

+8 BAB
All Skills as Class Skills
Int bonus applied to tons of different checks (Str/Dex Skills, Trip/Bull Rush/Disarm/Grapple, critical confirmation, Saves, etc).
4th level manuevers (and you can choose a different one every morning using Martial Study or Martial Stance as one of your floating feats)
4th level divine or arcane spells (I suggest Divine spells. Like an Archivist, a Chameleon can use Cleric, Druid, Blackguard, Paladin, Ranger, domain, PrC, spells, but without the need for a prayer book. And many 3rd and 4th level Blackguard/Paladin/Ranger spells are the equivalent of 5th or 6th level Cleric spells (the easiest example is Holy Sword (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holySword.htm), but the splat books are filled with them).


Take the Exotic Weapon proficiency feat, and learn what it can do (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5266526). You can swap this out to be any exotic weapon each morning using the Warblade's Weapon Aptitude ability. If you want, you can swap out Warblade for Master of Masks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=3), as it gives you access to every Exotic Weapon.

The Chameleon bonus feat can swap out it's bonus feat every morning.

The Heroics spell (Spell Compendium) gives you a Fighter bonus feat of your choice that you otherwise qualify for. As a 2nd level Sorcerer Wizard spell, it's quite easy for you to cast yourself or put in a wand. It lasts 10 minutes per level, so you rarely need to bother with Persistent Spell or other chicanery.

You could also do a psionic or incarnum or binder version of this build, using your floating bonus feat to gain a different power every morning using Expanded Knowledge, Shape Soulmeld, or Bind Vestige. For your purposes, I'd suggest a Factotum 3/Incarnate 2/Chameleon 5/Incarnate X. With Brains Over Brawn, souldmelds, spells, and floating feats, you could pretty much accomplish any Skill task. With some creativity and planning, this build can pretty much do anything.