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Gralamin
2009-09-17, 09:27 PM
I was reading the Faerun and Eberron (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125272) thread, and I realized that quite a few of the people that expressed good feelings towards Eberron expressed similar feelings towards 4e. People, however, who tended to dislike Eberron, tended to also dislike 4e. Now taking out the Spellplague for this discussion, do you think that this trend is relevant, or is my brain seeing patterns that are not there? (As humans tend to do).

Edit: Clarifying note, I am saying this is a trend, not that it is certain. I am sure there are exceptions.

Tiki Snakes
2009-09-17, 09:39 PM
Probably, if there is such a trend, it has a lot to do with the relatively minimal disruption caused by the change to 4th edition, in comparison to Forgotten Realms.

The update to that, in comparison, involved more major, polarising changes.

Perhaps it's as simple as there are less Eberron fans who have setting related reasons to dislike the new edition based on it's treatment of the setting?


But, really, I doubt there is a trend in any meaningful way.

Gralamin
2009-09-17, 09:54 PM
Probably, if there is such a trend, it has a lot to do with the relatively minimal disruption caused by the change to 4th edition, in comparison to Forgotten Realms.

The update to that, in comparison, involved more major, polarising changes.

Perhaps it's as simple as there are less Eberron fans who have setting related reasons to dislike the new edition based on it's treatment of the setting?


But, really, I doubt there is a trend in any meaningful way.

I am inclined to agree there probably isn't one, but if it is, it might be an interesting discussion point.

FoE
2009-09-17, 09:57 PM
I have always said that 4E was built for Eberron. But that's actually backwards. I've come to realize that Eberron had a huge impact on the design of 4E.

shadow_archmagi
2009-09-17, 10:00 PM
But that's actually backwards. I've come to realize that Eberron had a huge impact on the design of 4E.

That's odd, because I've always felt the two were completely at odds.

On one hand

"hey guys what if casters actually did all the crazy stuff optimizers come up with and build entire ridiculous magical cities?"

and on the other

"guys wizards are overpowered and fighters are underpowered lets balance this stuff out"

Dracons
2009-09-17, 10:06 PM
I love Eberron. I love Forgotten Realms. Both about the same, though slightly more towards Eberron. My players dislike Eberron, so I never get to DM it, let alone roleplay in it.

I also would one day love to run a Dragonlance, but it won't happen.

I love 3.5. Far more then 4th edition. I never played in first, second though.

4th edition I hate. One of my players loves it, and wishs we played in it. But he refuses to DM it.

FoE
2009-09-17, 10:10 PM
Well, no. Magic in Eberron is meant to be more ... industrial? Is that the right word? I can't think of a better one.

What I mean is, magic is commonplace in Eberron to the point that nearly everyone uses it for everyday small stuff (travel, cleaning, street lamps, and so on). Rituals are very in keeping with that theme: nearly anyone can use them with the proper training. And wizards are not the be-all and end-all in Eberron; in fact, there are only a handful of high-level wizards. It's not an "optimized" setting at all, as you put it. This isn't the Tippyverse.

But that's not even what I was referring to. Eberron assumes that PCs are "special" people striving to hold back the darkness; 4E says the same thing. Eberron doesn't force creatures to conform to certain alignments beyond a few exceptions; 4E does more or less the same, though there are arguably more exceptions. And Eberron assumes that D&D should be cinematic and exciting; 4E does the same.

I just feel there's a lot of overlap.

SurlySeraph
2009-09-17, 10:13 PM
As Tiki Snakes said, 4E Eberron is pretty much 3E Eberron, while 4E Forgotten Realms has undergone some fairly massive changes that most people who liked FR in 3E weren't big fans of. I think this is the deciding factor here.

Vortling
2009-09-17, 10:14 PM
I enjoy the Eberron setting a lot. I also prefer 3.5 D&D to 4e D&D. Make of that what you will.

I haven't heard a whole lot about what they've done to Eberron in 4e but if it didn't received the retcon firebomb that the other settings did then that could explain a chunk of the overlap between the "likes 4e" and the "likes Eberron" as I know there were quite a few people very put off by 4e based off what they did to other settings.

Elfin
2009-09-17, 10:15 PM
I can't see why there might be such a preference, other than Faerunites loathing 4e because of the changes it tried to impose upon them.

And as I said in the other thread, I actually prefer the post-Spellplague Realms even though I really don't like 4e.
As for Eberron, I like most of the setting, but the magitek spoils it for me.

Raltar
2009-09-17, 10:21 PM
Post Spellplague Faerun is unrecognizable from what it was before. As a matter of fact, if they didn't tell us it was the Forgotten Realms, I wouldn't even know it was. It is probably a good setting on its own...but it is not the Forgotten Realms.

FoE
2009-09-17, 10:25 PM
Case in point: Faerun had an atomic bomb dropped on it to accomodate the changes that came with 4E. Eberron ... had only a few alterations, because it already fit the new system.

Temet Nosce
2009-09-17, 10:28 PM
I'm really not seeing it. Personally, Eberron is my favorite official setting and I haven't played 4E since shortly after launch (and likely never will again).

Mando Knight
2009-09-17, 10:32 PM
Case in point: Faerun had an atomic bomb dropped on it to accomodate the changes that came with 4E. Eberron ... had only a few alterations, because it already fit the new system.

An atomic bomb that resurrected an ancient empire's airborne capital city and introduced flying islands. Those two facts are the main reasons why I like post-Spellplague FR, though I'm fine with both versions.

Eberron looks neat, but I don't have any material from that setting.

Elfin
2009-09-17, 10:35 PM
The main reason I prefer post-Spellplague Faerun is that they got rid of the peninsula of Chult- the shape of it always bugged me.
Anyway, it looks much better as an island IMO.

Zeta Kai
2009-09-17, 10:41 PM
The main reason I prefer post-Spellplague Faerun is that they got rid of the peninsula of Chult- the shape of it always bugged me.
Anyway, it looks much better as an island IMO.

Pardon me if I take exception to the radical & distasteful alteration of the setting just so you can have Chult shaped the way you like. :smallamused:

AslanCross
2009-09-17, 11:27 PM
I prefer Eberron and I prefer 3.5. While I originally expressed interest in 4E, I realized it wasn't as balanced as it claimed to be and since I could wrap my head around most mechanics of 3.5, I didn't feel the need to change systems. (Also, 3.5 books are for sale at 60% off here, so buying 4E books is unnecessarily costly.)

Natael
2009-09-19, 11:09 AM
as far as settings go, Dark Sun is my favorite, with Ebberon and Ravenloft being the only other two I rwally care for. I detest 4e, dislike 2e and am fairly meh about 3.5 (though like enough to want to run RHoD). I've always found FR pretty meh with all the super powered NPCs running around with six dozen different dieties and different types of Elves.

Morty
2009-09-19, 11:17 AM
There might be a connection but then again, we're talking about a not particularily large message board, so it might as well be coincidence. That said, the only element of 4ed that doesn't fit Eberron is the handling of moralty - Eberron uses blurred alignments, while 4ed is traditional Good Vs. Evil with "monster races" being ireedemable - so there may be something to it.

Aron Times
2009-09-19, 12:38 PM
Virtually nothing was changed in the transition between Eberron 3.5 and Eberron 4E. It's still 998 YK, and tensions are still high among the survivors of the Last War.

Yes, Dragonborn and tieflings were added to the setting. However, one of Eberron's design philosophies is that, "If it exists in D&D, it exists in Eberron." From a roleplaying perspective, dragonborn and tieflings were always there; they just didn't take center stage until 4E.

cZak
2009-09-19, 01:25 PM
Greyhawk is eternal... Nice to know that despite WotC's best(?) efforts they can't screw it up.

WotC put way too much info into developing FR. Granted some people like a detailed campaign world, but the developers ran into the problem of introducing new things, Godswar(?) (2e to 3e) or Spell plague (3e to 4e) that they were going to piss off a lot of people no matter what they did.

I've seen so much game time wasted by people arguing about canon, time period, npc, stat, etc... regarding FR that the DM could not win for losing. And most of it is contradictory arguments of novels vs splat vs web.

Eberron was new enough when 4e came out that it did not have the over development problem of FR. And the fact that its not a uber-ville of NPc's (Elminster, et al) that make the PC's meaningless.



Fools are made to suffer, not to be suffered

FoE
2009-09-19, 01:26 PM
Virtually nothing was changed in the transition between Eberron 3.5 and Eberron 4E. It's still 998 YK, and tensions are still high among the survivors of the Last War.

Yes, Dragonborn and tieflings were added to the setting. However, one of Eberron's design philosophies is that, "If it exists in D&D, it exists in Eberron." From a roleplaying perspective, dragonborn and tieflings were always there; they just didn't take center stage until 4E.

Truly, Eberron was perfect the way it is, arrrr. :smallbiggrin:

PinkysBrain
2009-09-19, 01:27 PM
I kinda doubt your trend is accurate ... 3e fandom is just a bit fragmented. You have the core lovers and you have the magic mart/ToB lovers (ToB isn't the prototype of 4e ... 4e is build on ToB's mutilated corpse). At a guess I think the former like Faerun more and the latter like Eberron more.

At any rate ... I don't fit your trend. I like Eberron, think RHoD is the best adventure Wizard's published in 3e and ToB one of the better books. All in all they only seemed to grasp 3e while it was on it's last legs (the Swiftblade is another nice example). Or maybe it was because all of the "big" talent was busy working on 4e.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-09-19, 02:20 PM
You have the core lovers and you have the magic mart/ToB lovers (ToB isn't the prototype of 4e ... 4e is build on ToB's mutilated corpse).

What exactly is the distinction you're trying to draw here? If by "core" you mean "PHB, DMG, MM, and nothing else," then the magic mart is out of place, since the whole WBL scheme and similar make the magic mart the base assumption of 3e. If by "core" you mean "people who came to 3e from prior editions," then ToB is out of place; I played 1e and 2e and want 3e to be a bit closer to them...but (A) I like ToB and ToM and psionics and such just fine, and (B) 1e and 2e had plenty of weird mechanics of their own.