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Tengu_temp
2009-09-17, 09:36 PM
4e is a game oriented towards teamplay, first and foremost - but what if you don't have a team? What kind of character would be fit most for adventuring alone, without other PCs or helpful NPCs? What I think about is mostly combat, but being useful and versatile outside of it is a nice bonus, as well as having a role in an actual party once they stop going solo.

My no-brainer answers are warlord and strength-based cleric - both possess decent, if not impressive damage, hit points and defenses, and enough healing to outlast opponents they cannot kill quickly.

Gralamin
2009-09-17, 09:38 PM
4e is a game oriented towards teamplay, first and foremost - but what if you don't have a team? What kind of character would be fit most for adventuring alone, without other PCs or helpful NPCs? What I think about is mostly combat, but being useful and versatile outside of it is a nice bonus, as well as having a role in an actual party once they stop going solo.

My no-brainer answers are warlord and strength-based cleric - both possess decent, if not impressive damage, hit points and defenses, and enough healing to outlast opponents they cannot kill quickly.

I think Avengers Would work well, because they already have quite a few abilities based on Isolation.
A Beast Ranger could work, as could a Fighter.

Tiki Snakes
2009-09-17, 09:45 PM
Half Vampire swordmage of some kind, perhaps, could do good stuff. I also built a Minotaur Fighter multiclass (some leader class) for the fun of it, who was designed to take on solo dungeon type stuff. (admittedly, combat only, really.)

It'd be a fun challenge to build for, I must say.

[edit] If you are unable to kill it quickly, healing doesn't help as much as having been able to kill it quickly would have, I suspect.

Kylarra
2009-09-17, 09:47 PM
Beastmaster Ranger is probably one of the better ones because it's "almost" like having two characters, particularly if you take the feat that allows you to OA whenever someone attacks your pet.

Tiki Snakes
2009-09-17, 09:49 PM
Beastmaster Ranger is probably one of the better ones because it's "almost" like having two characters, particularly if you take the feat that allows you to OA whenever someone attacks your pet.

Pretty sure there's one that gives your beast a bonus to attack or damage when attacking a quarry of yours that has damaged you, too? It could work quite nicely.

(Tack on the Vampire feat for some temp HP, and a bard multiclass for a bit of healing, and you probably do have a pretty durable solo build.)

FoE
2009-09-17, 09:52 PM
The DMG recommends a Defender for solo campaigns.

I haven't played a Barbarian yet, but I was wondering whether it would also work decently alone.

Outside of combat, the Bard or the Rogue would be good for a solo campaign.

Mando Knight
2009-09-17, 09:52 PM
A Paladin could probably last a while, especially since he's got (limited) healing, moderate damage output (about as good as a Warlord, anyway), a nice HP buffer, and decently large defenses (including one of the highest ACs available without feat investment).

Kylarra
2009-09-17, 10:11 PM
A Paladin could probably last a while, especially since he's got (limited) healing, moderate damage output (about as good as a Warlord, anyway), a nice HP buffer, and decently large defenses (including one of the highest ACs available without feat investment).Chaladin should be pretty good since LoH is a good "Oh crap" button, and the daily restriction is meaningless since you'll be running short days due to lack of party. CHA skills help you diplomance your way into things too. Divine challenge does become very useless though, unfortunately, which takes away a bit of your offense.

Mando Knight
2009-09-17, 10:22 PM
A Str-adin works well, too. But only if you're a race with a bonus to both Strength and either Charisma or Wisdom. The reason being that Divine Challenge then allows you to use the increased power of Holy Strike (which deals +Wis to marked targets)... and Valiant Strike helps for accuracy reasons (+1/adjacent enemy, with no damage reduction for accuracy). The Champion of Order PP then lets you shut down any tougher opponents with its Encounter power and Divine Challenge...

Kylarra
2009-09-17, 10:25 PM
Dragonborn would definitely be good, since its racial power allows you to clear out minions, albeit only 1/encounter.

Mando Knight
2009-09-17, 10:28 PM
Dragonborn would definitely be good, since its racial power allows you to clear out minions, albeit only 1/day.

1/encounter, actually. And with some feats from Dragon, it becomes an Area 2/10 with X/Radiant damage, so it doesn't really matter what your targets' resistances are.

Kylarra
2009-09-17, 10:35 PM
1/encounter, actually. And with some feats from Dragon, it becomes an Area 2/10 with X/Radiant damage, so it doesn't really matter what your targets' resistances are.
My bad, serves me right for not checking.

Kurald Galain
2009-09-18, 02:51 AM
Beastmaster Ranger is probably one of the better ones because it's "almost" like having two characters, particularly if you take the feat that allows you to OA whenever someone attacks your pet.
I'm not convinced that would work: the enemy can focus on you instead, ignoring the beast, and all you'd get from it was permanent combat advantage (noting as how the beast does not get an OA when someone attacks you). Not that permanent CA is bad or anything.


The DMG recommends a Defender for solo campaigns.
I don't think that's good advice. Several of the defender's abilities are pointless unless he has something to, you know, defend.


Outside of combat, the Bard or the Rogue would be good for a solo campaign.
Absolutely. A solo character will likely need skills.

I think the solo would also need healing. It's true that in combat, it's probably more effective to focus on damage (i.e. ranger or barbarian) to take down the enemy quickly, but you'd need healing out of combat to get more mileage out of your healing surges. Problem is that all classes that provide healing also have abilities mostly focused on buffing your non-existent teammates.

Barring cheese like the Half-Elf Of Doom (or whatever they're called now) I think your best bet would be a striker/leader hybrid, like Ranger | Streric, or Charbarian | Bard.

Totally Guy
2009-09-18, 03:14 AM
I'd go with Bard, pump up to scale (or maybe plate!) armour use a Sorcerer multiclass. I'd take the most damaging Sorcerer powers available at each level and focus on melee powers from the bard. Then I'd give him a magic staff which I'd expertise with.

The character would have limited but good quality blasty powers.
He'd have basic healing.
He'd have decent armour.
And a decent number of skills.. (Although his sorcerer multiclass Arcana skill is wasted...)

May be a bit fragile but I bet he'd be fun.

FoE
2009-09-18, 03:17 AM
II don't think that's good advice. Several of the defender's abilities are pointless unless he has something to, you know, defend.

Good point. That was the problem that oxinaobox ran into not long ago with a high level NPC fighter.

Totally Guy
2009-09-18, 06:39 AM
I think that power swap feats could be used quite effectively for this kind of challenge as you can take a class that has a decent backbone of class features like Paladin - For Heavy Armour and hit points and then swap out defender style powers for powers from a striker class.

Of course most striker get class features that boost damage over better powers. Barbarian stands out.

eepop
2009-09-18, 10:26 AM
I'm going to go with Warlock.

They can be tough as nails, they get decent skills, and while they are near the bottom of the striker list for damage, they are still strikers.

FoE
2009-09-18, 11:31 AM
I too was wondering about the infernal pact warlock.

kjones
2009-09-18, 11:36 AM
I don't think that's good advice. Several of the defender's abilities are pointless unless he has something to, you know, defend.


Agreed. The fighter's mark ability would be only useful against, say, retreating creatures - not that creatures never retreat, but still, its usefulness is most evident when you're trying to "draw aggro".

valadil
2009-09-18, 11:41 AM
Dragonborn would definitely be good, since its racial power allows you to clear out minions, albeit only 1/encounter.

Agree on dragonborn paladin. That was my first character. They can almost be a striker (although not as much since RRoT was (rightfully) nerfed). Divine Power only increased their striking. It would take a little more effort, but they could be decent healers too if they had the wisdom to power several LOHs.

The paladin's inadequacy compared to other defenders is his subpar mark. But this doesn't matter in a solo game. Unless you have a lot of NPC allies, encouraging enemies from hitting you is meaningless in a solo game. The best use for your mark would be to hit a minion with it and hope that he can't reach you so he dies from auto-damage.

Draz74
2009-09-18, 11:49 AM
Agreed. The fighter's mark ability would be only useful against, say, retreating creatures -

Or creatures trying to circle around the Fighter to achieve flanking.

Sipex
2009-09-18, 12:44 PM
An infernalock would make a great solo character I think.

Naturally high constituition, striker damage, bonuses to AC with shadow walk, temporary HP coming out your ears. PRIME SHOT would always work...always. Both burst and focused attacks.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-09-18, 01:25 PM
I'm with eepop and Sipex, only I'd add more detail. An Infernalock/Wizard has all the tools one would need in order to solo Orcus himself in the end. It'd have semi-constant temp hp, high con (for surviving), high int (for skills), striker dps, various controller powers, and thematic soundness to boot.

Mando Knight
2009-09-18, 02:13 PM
A Warlock is dead if he tries to solo for long periods of time, though. Even with massive Constitution, they're still behind the Paladin and especially the Warden in HP, and have nowhere near enough self-recovery to stop a guy that gets a few lucky hits in. Paladins get moderate damage output, a reliable means of healing themselves, and massive AC to deflect hits. By multiclassing into a Leader class, they can gain extra healing, and by taking a Striker class (particularly Warlock, Sorcerer, Ranger, and Barbarian), they can increase their damage output. If the Paladin worships Bahamut, he can take a feat to negate a critical 1/encounter instead of boosting his damage or nearly auto-saving on an adverse effect.

LibraryOgre
2009-09-18, 02:51 PM
Bard. A bard built with substantial multiclass options can cover every role, fight decently, and handle most of the skill duties. They're mid-tier on armor and weapons, and even their healing power, Majestic Word, helps with their mobility... once per round, they can use a minor action to take a healing surge AND shift one square.

Sipex
2009-09-18, 02:54 PM
Oh right, I had forgotten that this was about making the BEST solo character. Not just a good one.

Kaerius
2009-10-08, 01:18 AM
I'd have to agree bard and paladin make very good options(possibly hybrid with sorceror for either).

On the other hand... artificer is interesting. It can have pretty decent AC(leather armor and primary AC stat without spending feats), heal itself, create meatshields, can be specced to fight well in both range and melee. Heck you probably won't be able to manage more than a fight a day in solo in most cases anyway, so using their awesome dailies doesn't hurt. Heck at lvl 5 you have yourself an awesome little minion by animating a weapon and at 9 you can get your conmod healing every time you hit(radiant weapon). I heard encounter-long surgeless heals are good. ;)

You won't be mr. silvertongue though.

Willis888
2009-10-08, 06:36 AM
It depends on the total character levels allowed.*1 Some builds that work out in the end are difficult to play at lower levels.

It also depends on the setting. Casters run out of spells while fighters can do arbitrary damage without rest.

An Epic Barbarian who has focused on getting as much damage reduction as possible can last literally forever against armies of mooks (if they use siege weapons against you, a Vampiric weapon counters). Low level Barbarians will wish they were Paladins. Both are out of luck if regularly confronted by single, strong NPCs with optimized PC levels comparable to their own - Paladin/Sorcerer please (except at levels 6-15 . . . see *1).

In what environment/scenario are we building a solo character?


But really, just be a Wizard and hole up in a dungeon somewhere, sending forth your minions to take care of bidness. Or hire adventurers.

Drager
2009-10-08, 08:15 AM
I've got a solo wizard build that works very well. I'm still fiddling with the Paragon tier stuff, but Heroic and Epic are sorted. I'll link to the Heroic part of the build. the PAragon Path you want is Simbarch of Aglarond and the Epic Destiny is Archmage.

The Solo Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127327&highlight=Solo+Wizard)

Kurald Galain
2009-10-08, 08:39 AM
I've got a solo wizard build that works very well. I'm still fiddling with the Paragon tier stuff, but Heroic and Epic are sorted. I'll link to the Heroic part of the build. the PAragon Path you want is Simbarch of Aglarond and the Epic Destiny is Archmage.
That strikes me as a pretty bad paragon path. If you need the healing, use a multiclass feat and invest in a bunch of potions.

Drager
2009-10-08, 08:50 AM
That strikes me as a pretty bad paragon path. If you need the healing, use a multiclass feat and invest in a bunch of potions.

Fair enough. As I said PP is work in progress (thats why I ahven't posted it yet). I'll not derail this thread with discussion of that build though, not when it's got it's own thread. When I'm happy enough with the paragon tier I'll post it over there and you're input will be more than welcome. Also thanks for the hlep on that build so far.

Jack_Banzai
2009-10-08, 10:29 AM
If you're playing at paragon levels, a Feytouched Warlock can do some pretty amusing things on his own. Just if you wanted to try something different. Ditto the Life-Stealer or Hellbringer Warlocks. I have had a lot of luck soloing with Warlocks, strangely enough. I feel that they are often overlooked.

Corvus
2009-10-08, 03:41 PM
What level are you talking about?

I'd like to nominate a warlock I designed if you are willing to wait for a few levels.

Revenant Shadar-Kai Vestiage Pact Warlock (though infernal works just as well).

PP is Academy Master (very nice for any arcane caster).

ED is Consort of the Raven Queen.

At around level 24 I think it is he reaches near unkillability and does lots of damage.

By that stage he has to fail 5 death saves to die. Due to feats/items he gets to roll twice for each death save at +6, taking the highest. Any modified roll of 20+ allows him to spend a healing surge and also heal as if he spent a healing surge. Each time he makes one of those 20+ saves he gets a cumulative +2 bonus to all defences/saves.

But wait, there is more. While he is on less than 0 HP, he is insubstantial (takes half damage) and remains conscious with a full set of actions until he fails 2 death saves, which is unlikely.

Given he is con based, he has a fair pile of HPs to start with and a lot of healing surges. And due to Deathless Warrior, any melee or close attack that would reduce him to 0 or fewer HPs is reduced by 5+CON modifier.

I'm only playing him at level 16 currently, so he doesn't quite have all that yet - merely 111 HP, 13 healing surges, 5 saves to die, standard actions only until fails 2, rolls death saves twice at +3.

Theodoric
2009-10-08, 03:47 PM
Invoker, I'd say. If you pick the right race and get your Con, Int and Wis at suffciently high levels, you'd get high-saves all-round, and a not-too bad AC (yay, Hide-proficiency, which is better than the Warlock), as well as plenty of crowd control/dps Prayers. HP might be on the low side, though, but you should be inflicting to-hit penalties on all who come close anyway.

Shadow_Elf
2009-10-08, 05:38 PM
The assassin, released in DDi, could potentially do this, especially if it focused on start-of-encounter discharges and stealth. A high-heroic low-paragon Assassin can potentially defeat an enemy of level with an surprise round and an initiative round, which the Assassin is like to win. Shade Form increases drastically the potential for escaping combats you're losing, or for tanking if you've got minor action heals or attacks.

I like the Revenant Warlock idea, too. If you go with Lasting Frost + Wintertouch and Arcane Admixture - Cold on Hellish Rebuke, and White Lotus Riposte / Master White Lotus Riposte, Arcane Fire and finally Academy Master, you deal with Hellish Rebuke: Initial Damage + Rebuke Damage + Riposte Damage + Rebuke Damage (Master Riposte) + Vulnerability damage on each hit (Vulnerable 10, because of Arcane Fire/Lasting Frost) and you get permanent +2 to attacks from cold-looping CA. You blast them with encounters until they close, and they you whack them up close with the super-augmented Hellish Rebuke.

Grynning
2009-10-08, 08:04 PM
I would submit my Wardenlord tank build as a fair candidate for Epic levels. It's designed to optimize Second Wind as much as possible. Take a Dwarf Warden, MC feat for Warlord and the Earthfast Brigadier PP (daily power lets you regain 2nd Wind) and Chosen of Moradin ED (Again, power gives you 2nd Wind back). Get the new armor from AV 2 that gives you an extra 2nd wind, a couple of Epic feats, and you can 2nd wind 3x per encounter as a free action, with the ability to regain it up to 2x a day. Has ridiculous defenses and ok damage output; Warden powers have a bit of mobility and forced movement to them as well.

This build really doesn't work well until Epic though. I have the whole thing in saved in character builder if anyone wants to see it.