What was the point of Celia?

[B. Dandelion]

Am I the only one who finds myself looking back on this past arc and wondering what purpose Celia's inclusion to the main storyline was supposed to serve?

Why was she there, narratively speaking? What did she do that was of real significance?

Obviously, she provided a different perspective to the group. But not only was it not really insightful, it didn't seem like it was SET UP to be insightful. Most of the time, it wasn't her and Haley disagreeing but having equally understandable viewpoints -- most of the time, it was her being ridiculously naive, and Haley at worst being callous. By itself, that might not have been so bad, but she's self-righteous on top of it, assuming the worst about Haley and blaming her for Belkar's excesses. That's not the formula for a sympathetic POV.

Personally, I continually found myself wanting to sympathize with her, wanting some excuse to do so, but it never really materialized. Her decision to promise away half of Haley's earnings, ill-gotten or not, in 622/623 was the final straw -- those people she's using Haley's money to resurrect, for the express purpose of buying off her OWN professed guilt, died because Haley and Belkar killed them to save her when she'd gone into Greysky after having been warned explicitly not to do so. I'm as bleeding-heart as they come and I'd call that a bitch move.

I might have agreed with her reaction to Haley's slaughter of Crystal later on, since by my terminology you might guess I didn't exactly approve of it (though it was very possibly neutral rather than evil), but of course that's the one time her opinion is unavailable.

So what was she there for, then? Her character didn't change or develop. Her impact on the plot was limited to her service as "exposition fairy" in Azure City and carrier of the Idiot Ball into Greysky -- was that it, really?

I sort of doubt she was brought in for comic relief.

What I'm thinking is that she might have been brought in either to signal or possibly even kick off future development for Haley. It may sound lame, but I'm wondering if the hair thing is supposed to be symbolic. One of the few times (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0601.html) we see real closeness between Haley and Celia is when they braid one another's hair. Then Crystal cuts (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html) it, for revenge when Haley made fun of her own short haircut. Celia is even more upset (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0614.html) over the cut than Haley herself, and afterward....

Haley, in rejecting everything Celia stood for, starts becoming more like Crystal. Thus, sort of redeeming Celia in the process?

Anyone else been wondering about this?

[Katana_Geldar]

Why was Celia in there? Let's take a little walk down memory lane...

Firstly, she was Ms Exposition as she provided the party with the information about Dorkuan at her first introduction (or soon thereafter). Next, she served as a nice way to get the Linear Guild on a bus.

Second, there was the trial, and bringing her back as the party's defence counsel is much better than bringing in a new character they have no relationship with. Also, she was Roy's love interest to show how much he had grown as a character after the whole Miko crush thing and as a little reward for him.

Her third purpose was again, Ms Exposition, revealing the information about the Cloister spell and giving Haley a little push to get going with Roy's body. Then, Celia stayed as she wanted to see Roy restored back to life and was not sure if Haley could do this, given her non-appearance in the Monster Manual perhaps. From then on, Celia showed a a rather different morality as well as a sort of comic "babe in the woods" sort of character when she was in Greysky City.

And now, given that Roy has been resurrected and the Order of the Stick is once together again, she can go safely on her way to the bus stop.

Oh, and as for the hair. Haley and Celia were braiding each others hair, and giving themselves pedicures, because they were bored. And hair is a big part of a girls' identity, particularly if you have a big chop after having it long. It's a little hard at first seeing yourself in the mirror as that's not the picture of you you carry in your head.

[Lissou]

Celia was there because Haley needed to learn about the Cloister spell (and so did the readers), as she needed a reason to leave Azure City. She'd still be over there otherwise, and nothing that happened to her and Belkar away from Azure City would have happened.

Then, she stayed, because upon learning her boyfriend had been killed, it wouldn't have made much sense for her to go "well, bye then, I'll be my way, drop me a call if my boyfriend is raised".
Of course, she was also instrumental into going to Greysky, which Haley wouldn't have done otherwise, and whatever resulted (Roy becoming a golem, Haley owing money to the guild, Haley killing Celia Crystal, Belkar being cured from his MoJ disease and faking character development as a result of his sickness...)

[Boogastreehouse]

All good points, but I think she served another purpose as well.

She allowed Rich to explain how morality works in his setting. She reminds us, for instance, that good people in our world can't run around killing people just because those people are evil, but good people in the stick-world can.

One of the Giant's themes in this story is contemplating what a society would really be like if evil and law and chaos and good were tangible, measurable forces.

Celia provided a different perspective so the characters could debate the topic. She may have been annoying, but she fulfilled a vital role. Our deeper understanding of how morality works in this setting will make us appreciate even more whatever events are coming up.

[Katana_Geldar]

There is nothing wrong with using characters as vehicles. It's pretty much the entire point of NPCs anyway.

[Totally Guy]

Haley killing Celia,

That bit was awesome!:smalltongue:

[Katana_Geldar]

Here's another thing about Haley's hair: people with naturally red hair usually don't like it, but everyone else thinks the colour is beautiful.

[73 Bits of Lint]

carrier of the Idiot Ball into Greysky -- was that it, really?
You act as if this were a minor thing. Celia led Haley and Belkar into Greysky, setting up Haley's reunion with her archrival, Belkar's vision quest and recovery (resolving a subplot that's been going on for ages), and leading to the Sending spell that partially reunites the Order (resolving another long running subplot).
Celia may have been obnoxious, quarrelsome, self-righteous, generally ignorant and a poor team player, but she kept the plot on track (like a certain other female B-lister (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html)).

[B. Dandelion]

You act as if this were a minor thing.

It is.

Haley and Belkar are traveling north, toward Cliffport, where they will pass Greysky en route. Greysky just happens to be the home of Haley's old Guild. We need a reason to contrive their entrance into the city -- that's not a setup that requires something major or exotic.


Celia led Haley and Belkar into Greysky, setting up Haley's reunion with her archrival, Belkar's vision quest and recovery (resolving a subplot that's been going on for ages), and leading to the Sending spell that partially reunites the Order (resolving another long running subplot).

Which tells us why Greysky was important. Not why Celia was important.


Celia may have been obnoxious, quarrelsome, self-righteous, generally ignorant and a poor team player, but she kept the plot on track (like a certain other female B-lister (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html)).

Getting the team to Azure City was considerably more difficult (requiring a "ludicrously complex" plot, to use Rich's own words), and Miko's impact on the plot was far more lasting -- not to mention it continued far beyond her role as "railroad conductor."

[Kaytara]

Celia may have been obnoxious, quarrelsome, self-righteous, generally ignorant and a poor team player, but she kept the plot on track (like a certain other female B-lister (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html)).

I see it! Upon her death, Miko reincarnated and merged with Celia!

It does sort of make you question Roy's taste in women...:smalltongue:

[B. Dandelion]

Oh, and as for the hair. Haley and Celia were braiding each others hair, and giving themselves pedicures, because they were bored. And hair is a big part of a girls' identity, particularly if you have a big chop after having it long. It's a little hard at first seeing yourself in the mirror as that's not the picture of you you carry in your head.

There's potential symbolism to hairstyle changes. For one thing they're a way to provide narrative distance from earlier events (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html). There's also an additional symbolism to a hair cut that is administered against one's will.

What I'm trying to do is establish a specific link to Haley's cut and Celia. Not sure if that's an idea with any traction, but hey -- it's hardly the zaniest theory floating around.

[LuisDantas]

Am I the only one who finds myself looking back on this past arc and wondering what purpose Celia's inclusion to the main storyline was supposed to serve?

Why was she there, narratively speaking? What did she do that was of real significance?

IMO she was spot-on perfect to expose the character flaws of Belkar and, mainly, Haley, who is a lot more self-righteous than she ever admits. That seems to me to be a setup for characters arcs for Haley and possibly Belkar. Given how weak the setup for Vaarsuvius' arc was, that is a welcome move.

Granted, I am apparently very much in a minority here. Most people seem to blame Celia, not Haley or Belkar. I don't quite get why.


Obviously, she provided a different perspective to the group. But not only was it not really insightful, it didn't seem like it was SET UP to be insightful. Most of the time, it wasn't her and Haley disagreeing but having equally understandable viewpoints -- most of the time, it was her being ridiculously naive, and Haley at worst being callous. By itself, that might not have been so bad, but she's self-righteous on top of it, assuming the worst about Haley and blaming her for Belkar's excesses. That's not the formula for a sympathetic POV.

Haley is a lot more self-righteous than Celia ever was. Come to think of it, so is Belkar, and so are most other characters.

Sometimes I can't help but wonder why Celia is so ill-liked.


Pesonally, I continually found myself wanting to sympathize with her, wanting some excuse to do so, but it never really materialized. Her decision to promise away half of Haley's earnings, ill-gotten or not, in 622/623 was the final straw -- those people she's using Haley's money to resurrect, for the express purpose of buying off her OWN professed guilt, died because Haley and Belkar killed them to save her when she'd gone into Greysky after having been warned explicitly not to do so. I'm as bleeding-heart as they come and I'd call that a bitch move.

I don't. I blame Celia for failing to notice the rather obvious danger signs of the situation that made Roy's corpse a Golem. But other than that, she has lots more sympathy from me than Belkar, and a significant amount more than even Haley. The way Haley handled the Guild Siege situation lost her a lot of points with me, with her callous self-righteousness and her puzzling (and dangerous) failure to reign on Belkar.


I might have agreed with her reaction to Haley's slaughter of Crystal later on, since by my terminology you might guess I didn't exactly approve of it (though it was very possibly neutral rather than evil), but of course that's the one time her opinion is unavailable.

Because by that point Celia was lying outright to Celia. The Giant's intent seems (to me at least) to be to highlight how dangerous is Haley's current path.


So what was she there for, then? Her character didn't change or develop.

But she did, very much so indeed. She compromised her principles for expediency's sake, for one thing. She learned not to expect too much acceptance from the likes of Haley and Belkar. She apparently even sobbered up for how unlike her path is from that of Roy.


Her impact on the plot was limited to her service as "exposition fairy" in Azure City and carrier of the Idiot Ball into Greysky -- was that it, really?

Nope.

[jidasfire]

Haley? Self-righteous? The girl who constantly talks about how she's not a good enough person and fears people will hate her if they know the real her? For that matter, Belkar? Belkar has no concept of what righteousness is, so there's really no way he could consider himself such. Inigo Montoya is spinning in his grave, sir.

In my opinion, the reason for Celia was to test Haley's skills as a leader. On one hand, she had Belkar, a CE death machine who, while useful in combat situations, made everything else harder because of his belligerence and selfishness. On the other hand, she had Celia, a LG Pollyanna who considers the adventuring standard of life and death, which most gamers and OOTS readers take for granted, to be horribly immoral. She was useful in non-combat situations, but made any dangerous situation harder because of her naivete and passiveness.

Haley was stuck in the middle. She needed them both, but neither would compromise with each other, or her for that matter, on everything. Your mileage may vary on how well she succeeded, but I think Haley did a decent, if not perfect, job of balancing the two extremes. It did, perhaps, leave her a little burnt out on leadership.

[Teddy]

Haley and Belkar are traveling north, toward Cliffport, where they will pass Greysky en route. Greysky just happens to be the home of Haley's old Guild. We need a reason to contrive their entrance into the city -- that's not a setup that requires something major or exotic.

Haley had a hundred reasons to stay away from Graysky City, and Belkar wasn't capable of traveling on his own. Haley wouldn't ever touch Greysky ground wouldn't it be because of Celia.

[Kish]

Haley? Self-righteous? The girl who constantly talks about how she's not a good enough person and fears people will hate her if they know the real her?

Talks to herself and never admits uncertainty to anyone else except, very recently, Elan, you mean?

I didn't get the impression Rich sat down with the idea "Haley is right and Celia is wrong" (or, for that matter, "Celia is right and Haley is wrong"). Each regards the other's moral stance with contempt--they don't understand and they don't want to understand any better than they do. The money thing just makes me laugh (Someone in Haley's group stole from her, it's hilarious!) and since Haley's never shown so much as a twinge of guilt for the times she stole from the rest of the Order--including Elan--I find the fact that she thinks she's entitled to frame her protest in terms of "You had no right!" incredibly hypocritical.

[Elan's Modron]

Well, certainly this comes down to a matter of personal tastes
& whatever that old Latin quote is: "de gustibus non disputem est" - (which I know I just butchered there- forgive me spirits of Cato & Virgil)

a.k.a. "Your Mileage May Vary."

I liked Celia, and *because* I do, I won't particularly argue her case, because - if I like her, and some of y'all don't- so what? (Be forewarned though- my dad is a secret agent man, and can beat up all of your dads.)

So- I won't really argue her case here- because again- everyone's gonna have their own opinion anyway- but I will say- in addition to many of the excellent points made by threaders before me:

-I appreciated Celia as an outsider, from another plane entirely- it's that old trick that Tolkien did- of referencing vast other stories and backgrounds - which ventilates the main narrative, and gives narrative depth. It's a way to imply infinity.

-Plus, I like anything that smacks of Planescape! I'd love to see more of the other OotS-verse planes- as I said on another thread.

-And finally, I like how ALL the OotS characters are mixed bags. *Everyone's* got both their irritating traits and their personal charm. All the PCs are irritating to varying degrees, and all the villains have some moxie or style you can't help but admire...

(Me and my buddy once used to write and direct an online animated series called "Piki & Poko"- and the greatest compliment anyone ever paid me was when they said "I like it because your heroes are as interesting as your villains.")

My two c.p.s

[Godskook]

Maybe, just maybe, Celia's inclusion isn't a 'literary technique'. Maybe Celia is included because that's what the Giant believes is the most logical turn of events? You know, give the story a sense of realism?

Actually, that's a form of literary technique too, but still a possibility.

[theinsulabot]

Maybe, just maybe, Celia's inclusion isn't a 'literary technique'. Maybe Celia is included because that's what the Giant believes is the most logical turn of events? You know, give the story a sense of realism?

Actually, that's a form of literary technique too, but still a possibility.


try to avoid occam's razor around here, most people seem to take simple direct answers as an insult.



i dont even know if i am kidding

[factotum]

I think it's reasonably clear that the Giant always knew Celia was going to be summoned at SOME point, or else he wouldn't have put the Chekov's Gun of the summoning talisman into the strip. As already pointed out, maybe the whole reason for that was to give Haley a reason to go into Greysky and have the run-in with the Thieves' Guild; I think we'll have to wait and see if the commentaries in the next book confirm that before we can be sure, though.

[Harr]

Aside from the fact that Celia was the one who told Haley about Cloister and forced her to leave Azure City in the first place (something said very early in the thread which OP seems to be ignoring), the strip is partly a comedy; comedy involves the protagonists getting into ridiculous/weird situations that can be mined for jokes and humor.

Without Celia, Haley and Belkar on their own would never have gotten into half the stuff that they did; it was fine to see them bumbling around and making huge mistakes in the early phases of the strip (e.g. Belkar's "when in doubt, set something on fire"), but nowadays and after all they've been through it would fall pretty flat to still see them continue to do that kind of stuff at every turn. Thus they needed someone to push them into doing that stuff for them. Enter Celia.

And yes, it's perfectly obvious to everybody that the stuff that Celia did COULD have been done by someone else, or another contrivance COULD have been found, but the Giant chose to do it through Celia, just as he MIGHT have chosen to do it through anything/anybody else had he wanted, and that's not a question of whether something is better or necessary... it's just a question of what the Giant chose to do.

[Kaytara]

The money thing just makes me laugh (Someone in Haley's group stole from her, it's hilarious!) and since Haley's never shown so much as a twinge of guilt for the times she stole from the rest of the Order--including Elan--I find the fact that she thinks she's entitled to frame her protest in terms of "You had no right!" incredibly hypocritical.

Just out of curiosity, when did she actually steal from the group? :smallconfused: All I remember is the "ordinary rock with no value whatsoever" incident after the first book.

Off-topic: Elan's Modron, your avatar is hilarious. :) I only now really took a close look at it in connection to your username... XD

[Elan's Modron]

Off-topic: Elan's Modron, your avatar is hilarious. :) I only now really took a close look at it in connection to your username... XD

:smallredface::smallbiggrin:

[Shale]

In Dorukan's dungeon, she stole a potion from...Roy, I think? The "My father was a first-edition thief" incident. And the time she looted an entire room, pried gems out of a statue, etc, and passed the gains off as "feminine hygiene products" to avoid giving her teammates a share.

[Sewblon]

Someone had to tell Haley about the cloister spell so she and Belkar would leave Azure City and the rest of the order could track them down, and if she never went into Greysky City Belkar would still have the Mark of Justice and still wouldn't get to do anything most of the time.
In Dorukan's dungeon, she stole a potion from...Roy, I think? The "My father was a first-edition thief" incident. And the time she looted an entire room, pried gems out of a statue, etc, and passed the gains off as "feminine hygiene products" to avoid giving her teammates a share. She stole the potion from Belkar.

[Kaytara]

In Dorukan's dungeon, she stole a potion from...Roy, I think? The "My father was a first-edition thief" incident. And the time she looted an entire room, pried gems out of a statue, etc, and passed the gains off as "feminine hygiene products" to avoid giving her teammates a share.

Oh, right. Can't believe I forgot that... Probably because it was back in the early strips.

[LuisDantas]

Haley? Self-righteous? The girl who constantly talks about how she's not a good enough person and fears people will hate her if they know the real her?

That does not relate to the matter much, now does it?


For that matter, Belkar? Belkar has no concept of what righteousness is, so there's really no way he could consider himself such.

That is true. Partially because he is so strongly self-righteous that he may be incapable of conceiving of any other way of being.


Inigo Montoya is spinning in his grave, sir.

Uh?


In my opinion, the reason for Celia was to test Haley's skills as a leader. On one hand, she had Belkar, a CE death machine who, while useful in combat situations, made everything else harder because of his belligerence and selfishness. On the other hand, she had Celia, a LG Pollyanna who considers the adventuring standard of life and death, which most gamers and OOTS readers take for granted, to be horribly immoral. She was useful in non-combat situations, but made any dangerous situation harder because of her naivete and passiveness.

Haley was stuck in the middle. She needed them both, but neither would compromise with each other, or her for that matter, on everything. Your mileage may vary on how well she succeeded, but I think Haley did a decent, if not perfect, job of balancing the two extremes. It did, perhaps, leave her a little burnt out on leadership.

A fair analysis.

[B. Dandelion]

try to avoid occam's razor around here, most people seem to take simple direct answers as an insult.



i dont even know if i am kidding

A simple direct answer such as


Celia's inclusion wasn't a 'literary technique'. She was included because that's what the Giant believed was the most logical turn of events, to give the story a sense of realism.

Would not at all have seemed insulting. Whereas, if a response such as...


Maybe, just maybe, Celia's inclusion isn't a 'literary technique'. Maybe Celia is included because that's what the Giant believes is the most logical turn of events? You know, give the story a sense of realism?

...is insulting, it's not because he's using Occam's Razor.


IMO she was spot-on perfect to expose the character flaws of Belkar and, mainly, Haley, who is a lot more self-righteous than she ever admits. That seems to me to be a setup for characters arcs for Haley and possibly Belkar. Given how weak the setup for Vaarsuvius' arc was, that is a welcome move.

That's why I've been talking about her potential application in future arcs. If she starts to look more relevant later on, that's a sort of "retroactive justification" for her inclusion, which seems empty to me at this point in time.


Haley is a lot more self-righteous than Celia ever was.

What makes you say this? As I'm going back over their altercations, I'm continually struck by how Haley will always graciously concede a point to her in their arguments, even if she's angry or annoyed. "You make a convincing argument," "that's actually a really good point," and she doesn't gloat when Celia makes a really stupid mistake by doing something she'd warned her against. The same CANNOT be said in reverse. Celia never concedes anything, graciously or otherwise, and whenever she's right she rubs it in.


I don't. I blame Celia for failing to notice the rather obvious danger signs of the situation that made Roy's corpse a Golem.

That's not really what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how Haley told her not to go to Greysky, which she did anyway, and in doing so endangered all of their lives to the point that Haley had to kill a number of people in order to save her. Then, feeling guilty over the lives she'd indirectly helped take, she freely offers up Haley's own money. Please note that she never did anything of the sort for Solt Luryurg -- she was content to let his body grow cold by the side of the road, and why? Because she could blame Belkar and Haley for it. But because she feels bad about the thieves that died as a result of her own stupidity, she thinks that gives her the right to rob Haley.

That's what I'm pissed about.


The way Haley handled the Guild Siege situation lost her a lot of points with me,

In what aspect? I'm curious.


and her puzzling (and dangerous) failure to reign on Belkar.

What was she supposed to do with Belkar? While I'll admit I wasn't exactly thrilled with this either, I draw a blank in trying to come up with alternatives. Leaving him after the incident with the Oracle was a good move, surely? Not her fault her memory got wiped. And she had no idea afterwords what had happened or that his condition wasn't temporary.


Because by that point Haley was lying outright to Celia. The Giant's intent seems (to me at least) to be to highlight how dangerous is Haley's current path.

I don't know, if anything, it seems like a contrast to the situation re: Vaarsuvius and Hinjo. V leaves it out and Elan points out that their need to lie to Hinjo about it is probably a good sign there was something screwed up about her actions. Haley doesn't tell Celia simply because she doesn't want to hear her carping about it. Unlike Hinjo, Celia has no authority (even a quasi-authority) over the group, and she doesn't have a compelling need to know about what happened to Crystal, while Hinjo certainly had several reasons for needing to know what had happened to Kubota. V's out of line. Haley? Not so much, or at least, if she's out of line it's not evidenced by that particular aspect.


But she did, very much so indeed. She compromised her principles for expediency's sake, for one thing.

What are you referring to?


She learned not to expect too much acceptance from the likes of Haley and Belkar.

I wouldn't call that "growth".


She apparently even sobbered up for how unlike her path is from that of Roy.

I didn't get the sense she really came to any kind of significant growth in understanding there. She started with "I don't understand all the violence" and ended with "I don't understand all the violence."

[spargel]

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how Haley told her not to go to Greysky, which she did anyway, and in doing so endangered all of their lives to the point that Haley had to kill a number of people in order to save her. Then, feeling guilty over the lives she'd indirectly helped take, she freely offers up Haley's own money. Please note that she never did anything of the sort for Solt Luryurg -- she was content to let his body grow cold by the side of the road, and why? Because she could blame Belkar and Haley for it. But because she feels bad about the thieves that died as a result of her own stupidity, she thinks that gives her the right to rob Haley.


That's actually a good point.

[Warren Dew]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet: she provided a mechanism for character interaction after Belkar's curse was triggered. Without Celia, Haley would have been basically solo for half the arc, which is probably enough strips for internal monologue to become really old.

[Tannhaeuser]

Just a couple of little matters of detail.

It's "de gustibus non diputandum est", where disputandum is a gerundive indicating necessity or desirability. (Sorry, Pavlovian response on the part of an old Latin teacher.)

It was Belkar from whom Haley stole the potion, in The Benefit of a High Bluff Score (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html). As she did it to save Elan's life, I personally am willing to forgive her, especially as Belkar was the victim.

On the main point, my own opinion is that Celia is not one of the Giant's most vividly realized characters. She does come across more as a device than as a person. I don't love her; I don't hate her. I don't think about her much.

[Prowl]

As per the Giant, IIRC, she got as deep into the story as she did primarily because Miko wasn't working out as a love interest for Roy, he needed a replacement, and she was a blank template suitable for the purpose. Worked out pretty well, I think.

[Kish]

It was Belkar from whom Haley stole the potion, in The Benefit of a High Bluff Score (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html). As she did it to save Elan's life,

Ah ah ah. Elan was hurt, but not dying.

How about here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0029.html)? Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0129.html)? Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0205.html)? For that matter, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0540.html), where she calls a lifetime of theft "working for a living"? The important thing, from my perspective, is that Haley's entirely consistent attitude is that she has every right to steal from the rest of the party and the whole idea that doing so might involve any moral issues is absurd. That being the case, I would find myself hard-pressed to dredge up an iota of sympathy for her if even a companion as loathsome as Belkar stole every penny she owned, or had owned, or would own for the next century. What goes around, y'know?

Edit: No. Miko was never ever meant to be Roy's love interest, just a temporary romantic foil. This is a meme actually more resilient than Belkar-is-Chaotic-Neutral, as people have proven themselves willing to argue with Rich about Miko's original destiny.

[Katana_Geldar]

As per the Giant, IIRC, she got as deep into the story as she did primarily because Miko wasn't working out as a love interest for Roy, he needed a replacement, and she was a blank template suitable for the purpose. Worked out pretty well, I think.

More like when Miko didn't work out, as it was never meant to. His relationship with Celia was the result of his respect for women as part of the Belt of Gender Changing.

[Je dit Viola]

Oh! I get why Celia was in the story for that while! Roy's character (if he had one) needed someone to play! Who better, than your character's girlfriend, to get you raised?

Seriously, though: I think Celia was a good character that did help the story move forward. Just Haley and Belkar alone would be boring.

[B. Dandelion]

As per the Giant, IIRC, she got as deep into the story as she did primarily because Miko wasn't working out as a love interest for Roy, he needed a replacement, and she was a blank template suitable for the purpose. Worked out pretty well, I think.

Nope. Miko was never intended as a serious love interest.


OK, so let's clear something up: This mythological notion that Miko was originally intended to be the indefinite romantic interest for Roy is pure fantasy and unfounded speculation. Everything from the point where Miko drags the Order to Azure City in chains in #251 is more-or-less exactly what was always going to happen, with only some tone changed. Miko, and only Miko, was intended to kill Shojo, fall from grace, and ultimately destroy the Azurite gate. No one else was ever considered for this role, and this role was assigned to her from before her first appearance in #200. It was the entire narrative purpose of her character. Of course, I couldn't SAY that in the notes to Paladin Blues, because none of that had happened yet. There was never an intention for there to be a relationship with Roy, merely a few clumsy attempts on Roy's part to start one, followed by a rebuff and the Order's capture. Miko was always a "villain", and I did not intend for Roy to have a long-running relationship with a villain, merely to make her an appealing enough antagonist that some people were rooting for her.

[ZeroNumerous]

Am I the only one who finds myself looking back on this past arc and wondering what purpose Celia's inclusion to the main storyline was supposed to serve?

Trope-wise: A MacGuffin.

She existed to put two character in Greysky. Now hopefully she gets on her bus quietly.

[David Argall]

As per the Giant, IIRC, she got as deep into the story as she did primarily because Miko wasn't working out as a love interest for Roy, he needed a replacement, and she was a blank template suitable for the purpose. Worked out pretty well, I think.
As has been pointed out, our writer has said that Miko was never intended to be a permanent love interest for Roy, which is a shame. Miko-Roy would have been a much more interesting combination, whereas Celia-Roy has been pretty much dull and insipid. About the only reason they seem to have for hopping into bed is that they are boy and girl. The romantic, and comic, possibilities of Miko-Roy are hugely beyond anything Celia-Roy has provided.
Of course, it may be for the best. Our writer could not even manage his intended romance scene, and to struggle thru a hundred strips of what he was having difficulties even starting could have been very bad.

[Tijne]

I think the first few points of Celia appearing had rather apparent reasons...
but why she stuck with the party after Roy's death. impacting the events that came (even if only slightly) was for a less apparent reason...



In DnD, when a PC dies and is going to remain dead for an expanding amount of time, the DM may be kind enough to let the PC take out a temporary character, such as a preexisting NPC or something similar.

I can easily see someone who would play Roy in DnD taking out Celia and playing her as she was portrayed in the comic; the focus on getting the PC rezzed ASAP, the lack of desire for violent action (who wants the party gaining xp while you're dead?), and the filling of (a few) roles Roy left behind.
To top it off, she had relations with "Roy" before these events... add in a bit of "pacifistic personality" and a desire to bring back her dead boyfriend, and the character can be roleplayed easily while still maining the goals of the PC...


Roy died. Soon after, Celia joined the party. Roy returned, Celia left the party-- Granted, I know there are no players for this "game"; it is a world set in a DnD stage... But there are still people called "NPCs" and "PCs"; so I can't see why there can't be a NPC who a PC is temporarily taking the role of while dead.

Whether it was planned or not, it works out very well; even if you have to stretch the entire idea a little..
Though, I actually think this was just coincidence.. But hey, it Still works out pretty nicely doesn't it?. xD

[Joerg]

Then, feeling guilty over the lives she'd indirectly helped take, she freely offers up Haley's own money. [...] But because she feels bad about the thieves that died as a result of her own stupidity, she thinks that gives her the right to rob Haley.

Well, from Celia's point of view, she does not 'rob' Haley. Haley stole the money in the first place, so she does not own the money. It's only Haley who thinks (like other thieves) that she has a right to take money off other people and that this money is then hers.

From the lawful point of view, the money belongs to Grubwiggler (and the other persons Haley stole from). So you can say Celia stole from Grubwiggler, but not from Haley.

[B. Dandelion]

Well, from Celia's point of view, she does not 'rob' Haley. Haley stole the money in the first place, so she does not own the money. It's only Haley who thinks (like other thieves) that she has a right to take money off other people and that this money is then hers.

From the lawful point of view, the money belongs to Grubwiggler (and the other persons Haley stole from). So you can say Celia stole from Grubwiggler, but not from Haley.

The thing is that it's not about Haley, or whether having her money taken from her constitutes "robbery," or whether she deserved it, or whatever. It's about how Celia's actions mark her as a hypocrite and are fueled by a rationalization -- she needs to buy off her own guilt, and so in order to do so takes money from the nearest available source, then casts about for an excuse to do so. She didn't do the same for Solt Lurkyurg, she only did it when her own impeccable self-image was damaged.

Stealing from Grubwiggler or Haley's other victims, rather than Haley herself, wouldn't make any difference.

[Meg]

You've all missed the obvious: She's an expy of Navi. Navi got tired of bugging one guy with a sword, trying to save the world without snapping and killing her, so she changed her name to bug several people with swords who are trying to save the world without snapping and killing her.

[Setra]

Celia's point is to at some point in the storyline be a hostage.

Probably once Roy gains an artifact capable of saving the world.

[veti]

Narratively, have we all forgotten - it was Celia who galvanised Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html) into leaving Azure City, and made it possible for her to reunite eventually with the rest of the Order?

Thematically, she shows how absurd (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0537.html) it is to apply real world morality to a D&D world. It's her constant harping on that difference that seems to earn her so much hate on this board.

Dynamically, she kept Haley and Belkar together - she was a constant reminder to Haley that she and Belkar, alignment differences notwithstanding, still had a great deal more in common (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0619.html) than she had with "regular" people.

And practically, as has been said - she was a logical replacement PC for Roy's player while he was dead. That's why she left (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html) when Roy came back, instead of - as one might expect - actually hanging around now that her boyfriend is back.

[Sholos]

Narratively, have we all forgotten - it was Celia who galvanised Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html) into leaving Azure City, and made it possible for her to reunite eventually with the rest of the Order?

Thematically, she shows how absurd (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0537.html) it is to apply real world morality to a D&D world. It's her constant harping on that difference that seems to earn her so much hate on this board.

Dynamically, she kept Haley and Belkar together - she was a constant reminder to Haley that she and Belkar, alignment differences notwithstanding, still had a great deal more in common (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0619.html) than she had with "regular" people.

And practically, as has been said - she was a logical replacement PC for Roy's player while he was dead. That's why she left (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html) when Roy came back, instead of - as one might expect - actually hanging around now that her boyfriend is back.

I agree with all of these, with the exception of the last one. There. are. no. players. It's been said I-don't-know-how-many times. There was a perfectly good explanation why she left. She's not cut out for the adventuring life. Staying around Roy will, at best, distract him. At worst, it'd get everyone killed and end the world.

[Gezol]

Thematically, she shows how absurd (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0537.html) it is to apply real world morality to a D&D world. It's her constant harping on that difference that seems to earn her so much hate on this board.

I see this defense of Celia a lot- that she's a representative of real-world morality and that she illustrates how it clashes with D&D morality- and I don't think it holds up. That bit with the hobgoblins was in the context of a state of war, not a stereotypical D&D dungeon crawl. The use of violence against a brutal occupying army (especially one that's commanded by people like Xykon and Redcloak) that's just taken over one's country is, I think, pretty universally considered acceptable under most systems of "real-world morality"- and that's what Celia was protesting, not some "go into a dungeon for the sole purpose of killing things and taking their stuff" scenario.

Except for those who actually are total pacifists, I don't think most of us in the real world would actually be taking a "violence is always wrong" position if we were faced with the same situation as Celia is there- we might be horrified to see it happen and unwilling to take part in it, but I don't think we'd generally see violent resistance against a brutal conqueror as something evil that we had to try to stop, as she does. I won't name specific examples so as not to violate the board rule against real-world politics, but I would imagine most of us can think of historical examples where violent resistance against an occupying army was justified- unless one is a true total pacifist, which is a rare position in the context of real-world morality. (I think it's a respectable and often admirable but difficult and problematic position to hold, and Celia is, well, a very, very bad representative of it.) Doing as Celia does- hanging around resistance fighters and depending on their willingness to use violence for your own protection, and then being self-righteous and snarky to their faces about the fact that they think it's acceptable to kill enemy soldiers- well, suffice to say, that doesn't sound like anything I think the average modern person thrust into a D&D world would do, nor does it reflect real-world morality to me, unless you have a very low opinion of real-world morality.

And on that note, Celia never actually seems all that horrified by the violence that she witnesses- in fact, she's callous about it in a way that I can't imagine the average modern person thrust into a D&D world would be. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html), she seems more surprised and irritated about Belkar killing the gnome than truly upset- almost immediately afterwards, she's snarking at Haley about it. The fact that her first reaction to witnessing the pointless murder of an innocent is to try to score debating points over it says a great deal about her real character, IMO, none of it good. And B. Dandelion makes an excellent point that she did nothing to try to help resurrect Solt Lorkyurg or do anything at all for him except scold Haley, which, combined with her initial reaction to the gnome's murder and how she handled the Thieves' Guild situation later, makes her pacifist principles seem like an excuse to be self-righteous far more than they do like the product of a genuine respect for all life.

So, yeah, I found Celia an intensely dislikable character, and I'm not sure much she was intentionally written to be one. But if the intent of her character was to show how real-world morality clashes with D&D morality, I'd have to call her an utter and resounding failure, and I think Rich is a much better writer than that.

[B. Dandelion]

Narratively, have we all forgotten - it was Celia who galvanised Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html) into leaving Azure City, and made it possible for her to reunite eventually with the rest of the Order?

Thematically, she shows how absurd (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0537.html) it is to apply real world morality to a D&D world. It's her constant harping on that difference that seems to earn her so much hate on this board.

Please don't make sweeping statements like that. I'm the OP and I dislike Celia because I perceive her as a self-righteous hypocrite. It has nothing to do with D&D, which I don't even play. Most of the rules I've only learned since reading OOTS, which I started reading because I liked TV Tropes and it linked here so incessantly that I finally wound up checking it out just to see what all the fuss was. (Ditto Avatar the Last Airbender. Though I didn't become nearly as obsessed with it.)

I have also defended Celia. A lot. Right up until 622/623. That was... well, not the Moral Event Horizon. More like the Final Annoyance Threshold. But a certain similar logic applies. Like I said, I had wanted to sympathize with her. That was the point at which I no longer did and just said "screw it."

[Lissou]

That bit with the hobgoblins was in the context of a state of war, not a stereotypical D&D dungeon crawl. The use of violence against a brutal occupying army (especially one that's commanded by people like Xykon and Redcloak) that's just taken over one's country is, I think, pretty universally considered acceptable under most systems of "real-world morality"- and that's what Celia was protesting, not some "go into a dungeon for the sole purpose of killing things and taking their stuff" scenario.

I disagree. I think that bit really showed how, even in circumstances that might happen in the real world (obviously not with hobgoblins) the reaction is different for DnD characters.
Their first thought was "let's kill them". Really, they didn't give it any thought. "There will be people on our way, we'll kill them".
Killing is the first thing that pops into their heads, even when it's not the most practical: as Celia pointed out, it would mean at the very least being found out, and possibly the resistance headquarters being discovered.
Using a stealth mission instead makes a lot more sense.

In our world, killing someone is usually considered at a last resort. When people are held hostage, first a negociator is sent to try and get everybody out of there alive. Only has a backup are snipers considered. And in time of wars, many missions are more about not being seen than killing everyone you notice.

So it still works. Sur, Celia is opposed to killing in general, but it still shows the difference between thinking of killing as a first option that goes without saying, or as a last resort.

[The Extinguisher]

I think one of the main reasons people seem to dislike Celia is because she was a relatively central character (while she was on screen) who wasn't a villain, and who didn't bend over and let the main characters do whatever they wanted.

But that's just my opinion.

[B. Dandelion]

Narratively, have we all forgotten - it was Celia who galvanised Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html) into leaving Azure City, and made it possible for her to reunite eventually with the rest of the Order?

I haven't, but the thing is that I doubt how much credit she deserves for "galvanizing" Haley. She served as the Exposition Fairy which took away Haley's delusion that she could stay put and hope for her friends to contact her. She also then demonstrated a really gung-ho attitude which certainly helped move her in that direction very quickly, but even taking Haley's neuroses into account I don't think she'd have stayed put after that.


Dynamically, she kept Haley and Belkar together

It was Celia's great idea to take Belkar with her, away from Haley if need be, by taking Roy's corpse. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html) Haley only tolerated him because she needed all the help she could get. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0540.html) After Belkar killed the Oracle, Haley stripped him of his standing within the OOTS and meant to leave him by the side of the road. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0570.html) So, uh, no.


she was a constant reminder to Haley that she and Belkar, alignment differences notwithstanding, still had a great deal more in common (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0619.html) than she had with "regular" people.

Yeah, 'cause Belkar's so sincere about the whole "team" thing you can just taste it. Oh, wait, I think that's the bow.


I think one of the main reasons people seem to dislike Celia is because she was a relatively central character (while she was on screen) who wasn't a villain, and who didn't bend over and let the main characters do whatever they wanted.

But that's just my opinion.

Well, it's just my opinion, but I'm starting to suspect one of the main appeals in defending Celia is that it offers the opportunity to make sweeping statements about the dubious nature of opinions of people with whom they disagree, with none of the risk of being called on it because they don't name names.

[Milcho]

Hmm, that's a whole lotta talk about this subject.

How about, she added a bit of variety, and a love interest for Roy, and it made the story.

There really doesn't have to be a ten page reason for a character to be included...(which I wouldn't have gathered by reading this topic)

[Teddy]

I haven't, but the thing is that I doubt how much credit she deserves for "galvanizing" Haley. She served as the Exposition Fairy which took away Haley's delusion that she could stay put and hope for her friends to contact her. She also then demonstrated a really gung-ho attitude which certainly helped move her in that direction very quickly, but even taking Haley's neuroses into account I don't think she'd have stayed put after that.

Haley was quite reluctant to move out of the city. She is very worried that the Order will come back when she has left, even though the proablility that they will rush blindly into a city flooded with hobgoblins without contacting the person they are trying to find to make sure she's alive is extremely low. She does also need to be informed of the function and the mere existence of the cloister spell. Celia is pretty much the only person alive that holds any usefull knowledge about it.


It was Celia's great idea to Belkar with her, away from Haley if need be, by taking Roy's corpse. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html) Haley only tolerated him because she needed all the help she could get. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0540.html) After Belkar killed the Oracle, Haley stripped him of his standing within the OOTS and meant to leave him by the side of the road. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0570.html) So, uh, no.

The first part is more speaking for that she actually functions to keep the party together than the opposite. By doing it that way, she forces Haley to come with them, because Haley loses any reason to stay in Azure City except fighting a losing battle against the hobbos.

The seccond part is neither speaking for nor against Celia.

The third part too.

She's keeping them together by telling Haley the holes in her plan. By suggesting that they should stay with Belkar in Greysky just to make sure that Roy-golem doesn't leave the city covers that possibility and keeps them where they need to be (the fact that the MoJ has been activated doesn't change anything, since they don't know about it).

[Tannhaeuser]

Ah ah ah. Elan was hurt, but not dying.

Weeeell, Kish, he had what appeared to be a major bodily organ detached from his body, two swords stuck in his spleen (or at least what he thought was his spleen ― I would not go bail for Elan’s knowledge of anatomy), and Durkon thought the case deserved at least a C(ure)S(erious)W(ounds). It is reasonable to think that in any further encounter, Elan might very possibly be killed. I will grant that, in such an early, shall I say, pre-Cerebean comic, the likelihood was very slight, and a genre-savvy character like Haley might well dismiss it. On the other hand, she was almost certainly already in love with Elan, and thus likely to be over-protective.

On the other hand, I am perfectly willing to yield you your main point: Haley does (or at least did) indeed regard the rest of the party as her legitimate prey. She was perfectly willing to cheat them out of any loot they did not actually see and to swindle them (even Elan) into taking worthless rocks in place of real treasure (though I am one of the group that hopes that somehow the rocks turn out to be valuable and that Haley cheated herself). I tend to think that her morals have improved somewhat since those early comics, but I expect a GREAT deal of backsliding along the way. Haley is no saint.

As I said, I have nothing against Celia. She seems to fulfil her plot functions admirably. I just don’t find her all that interesting independent of her plot function, personally. Others will doubtless differ. Chacun à son goût.

[B. Dandelion]

I just wanted to say that I liked your post a lot, Gezol. I'd hate to see it get buried with no comment.


Haley was quite reluctant to move out of the city. She is very worried that the Order will come back when she has left, even though the proablility that they will rush blindly into a city flooded with hobgoblins without contacting the person they are trying to find to make sure she's alive is extremely low. She does also need to be informed of the function and the mere existence of the cloister spell. Celia is pretty much the only person alive that holds any usefull knowledge about it.

Which makes her the Exposition Fairy. She tells Haley about Cloister. All she does of relevance is dispense information. Once Haley knows about Cloister, I don't see evidence that she needed Celia to convince her to move. That's what I've been saying. Since that's a role that could as easily be filled as an inanimate object, it doesn't work to convince me that she was all that necessary as a major character. So why was she a major character?


The first part is more speaking for that she actually functions to keep the party together than the opposite.

What I was arguing against was the statement that she kept them together because they were unified in their opposition to her. That they were only together because she roped them into it weakens this point.


The seccond part is neither speaking for nor against Celia.

My point was that Haley's reasons for tolerating Belkar had nothing to do with Celia, thus she didn't unify them. Haley only tolerated Belkar because she needed him, not because he was more like her than Celia or other "normal" people. The situation would have been the same without Celia.

Taken out of the context of the original argument, it's kind of meaningless.


The third part too.

She did not help keep the party together because she unified Haley and Belkar in their differences. Haley wanted to leave Belkar and did, and Celia cheered her on.


She's keeping them together by telling Haley the holes in her plan. By suggesting that they should stay with Belkar in Greysky just to make sure that Roy-golem doesn't leave the city covers that possibility and keeps them where they need to be (the fact that the MoJ has been activated doesn't change anything, since they don't know about it).

You're not really arguing the same point veti was. Ironically, you might be making a better one. Okay. Maybe Celia's presence kept Haley and Belkar together, thus explaining her presence thematically. It's an interesting angle, though I'm not sure I agree with it. What I definitely don't agree with is "Celia made Haley realize she had more in common with Belkar than "ordinary" people" and thus stick with him."

[Antacid]

IMHO there've been enough reasons for Celia's presence given in this thread that no one can really say she did nothing of relevance - the complaints are the result of people not liking her, not from her being any more 'useful' to the story than, say, Durkon, whose role for some time now has been to cast useful spells occasionally (although I don't think there's anything wrong with Durkon either).

I think the OTT irritation with Celia comes from players being traumatized by excessively codified rules of "lawful" behavior on the part of both hardcore roleplayers and DMs in actual games of D&D, typified by the horror of the 3E paladin's code. That and the fact that most people who play D&D do so to stop thinking about real-world morality for a few hours and act out their narcissistic fantasies, not that there's anything wrong with that. So Celia reacting to the gnome's death like an IRL murder is more jarring tonally than Belkar killing him in the first place. We'd gotten used to Belkar's excesses being either treated as comedy or as consequence-free, such as with the guard he killed escaping from the cells in Azure City.

For the record, the fact that Celia didn't attempt to get the Gnome raised likely has more to do with her having little idea of what the limitations of raising the dead even are, given that resurrection is not even an option on her home plane. If the characters had just thrown him on the cart the point the scene was making (that Belkar is a genuine liability and ultimately deserves to die before the end of the year) would have been totally negated.

I personally think it's very interesting how "Lawful" characters are typically the ones criticised for hypocrisy, whereas the same trait is simply accepted as inherant to the "Chaotic" character and therefore not worth reproaching with the same heat. It says something about the situational way people judge morality: Celia 'stealing' Haley's money is regarded as hypocrisy even if she uses it to raise a bunch of thieves from the dead - but she's also blamed for not raising a gnome from the dead earlier, even though the option was never even suggested by the only person who could have facilitated that actually happening (Haley).

[Zolkabro]

{scrubbed}
Of course Celia is plot-contribusive! She's Roy's girlfriend, for goodness sake!
And almost every Haley-strip after leaving Azure City was incredibly dependent on Celia for the plot. The ongoing arguements between them have made significant character growth for both, and we have discovered a more bossy, unfair, commanding side of Celia. An then in strip 573 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html) it shows that despite all their disagreements, they are quite close anyway. She understands Haley's "But they were like, lime green" thing much better than V, in strip 3
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html)
The last story arc would be half it's size if Celia didn't exist. What would have happened in the journey from Azure City? Most of it is focused on Celia vs. Haley.

[B. Dandelion]

IMHO there've been enough reasons for Celia's presence given in this thread that no one can really say she did nothing of relevance

Sure you can. You just can't prove anything definitively. It's not really the kind of topic you can give a definitive yes or no answer to. That's why it's "what was the point of Celia?" instead of "was there a point to Celia?" I was interested in seeing what people thought she was there for. I've had some thoughtful replies from people who argued purposes I hadn't noticed or thought of. I've had a few people agree with me that she seemed either a somewhat inexplicable or else a poorly implemented addition.


the complaints are the result of people not liking her, not from her being any more 'useful' to the story than, say, Durkon, whose role for some time now has been to cast useful spells occasionally (although I don't think there's anything wrong with Durkon either).

The subtle distinction that I was talking about was that I had been more inclined to see her as a character with a point if I thought she added a perspective with validity. I didn't have to agree or disagree with it so long as it seemed like it was bringing something to the table. I mean, Redcloak's a hypocrite but that doesn't make him an uninteresting character, and it's not like his perspective has no validity, it's just not consistent and it's not an absolution for his evil deeds. Celia, though... it not only seemed like she was hypocritical but she didn't really have anything else going on for her, and I wasn't sure if that was intentional, or what. And if it was, if I have to assume she wasn't brought on for the purposes of giving us her perspective at this time, what the hell WAS she there for?


So Celia reacting to the gnome's death like an IRL murder is more jarring tonally than Belkar killing him in the first place.

It was? Really? What I found shocking was that they didn't toss him in the cart and raise him. I remember posting a thread about that. (Under my old name that I idiotically locked myself out of...)


For the record, the fact that Celia didn't attempt to get the Gnome raised likely has more to do with her having little idea of what the limitations of raising the dead even are, given that resurrection is not even an option on her home plane.

Okay, I'm sorry, but I just don't buy this. That she doesn't know the rules sure the hell hasn't stopped her from making all kinds of other decisions, including the one to raise all the (considerably less innocent) members of the Guild. In fact, when has her total lack of relevant knowledge stopped her from doing squat? That's part of her problem!


If the characters had just thrown him on the cart the point the scene was making (that Belkar is a genuine liability and ultimately deserves to die before the end of the year) would have been totally negated.

Beg to differ. The Oracle proved that very point with his death as well, but he didn't have to stay dead for it to stick.


I personally think it's very interesting how "Lawful" characters are typically the ones criticised for hypocrisy, whereas the same trait is simply accepted as inherant to the "Chaotic" character and therefore not worth reproaching with the same heat.

Because I'm such a rabid Haley defender, right?


It says something about the situational way people judge morality: Celia 'stealing' Haley's money is regarded as hypocrisy even if she uses it to raise a bunch of thieves from the dead - but she's also blamed for not raising a gnome from the dead earlier, even though the option was never even suggested by the only person who could have facilitated that actually happening (Haley).

Celia stealing Haley's money is hypocrisy because she doesn't appear to even CARE about Solt Lurkyurg. She's not shocked and horrified like in 621 when she's all bemoaning the people who've suffered -- she's immediately and sarcastically criticizing Haley. In 531 she out-and-out tells Haley to raise money for Roy's resurrection by killing the "treasure-laden monsters [who] will throw themselves in front of your weapons" -- does that sound like someone who honestly gives one half-teaspoon of a crap for life there? Because I don't think so. I don't think she cares until it's HER fault. THEN out come the "oh what a senseless waste" tears. What baloney! Saying she's full of it has NOTHING to do with her Lawfulness, it has to do with the fact that she's full of it.

[LuisDantas]

Celia stealing Haley's money is hypocrisy because she doesn't appear to even CARE about Solt Lurkyurg.

Celia did not really steal Haley's money, and in fact #621 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0621.html) has her explicitly stating that she appropriated [i]half of what Haley had stolen[/url], not any money that she might have acquired as Monster Treasure or other legit means. And she did it to ensure their survival, so it is unfair to claim that she robbed Haley.

#539 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html) does not at all imply that she did not care about Solt the Gnome. Much on the contrary, she is shocked as soon as it happens, then stands aside while Haley complains to Belkar, before finally pointing out how absurd Belkar's attempts at rationalization are.


She's not shocked and horrified like in 621 when she's all bemoaning the people who've suffered -- she's immediately and sarcastically criticizing Haley.

Not quite immediately, and whatever sarcasm she employs is more than a fair fit to the situation. After all, it follows Belkar's absurd (if hilarious) talk.


In 531 she out-and-out tells Haley to raise money for Roy's resurrection by killing the "treasure-laden monsters [who] will throw themselves in front of your weapons" -- does that sound like someone who honestly gives one half-teaspoon of a crap for life there?

Actually yes, it does. She sounds like someone who recognizes that there are choices involved in preserving life, and that sometimes such choices force one to favor the fate of sentient lifeforms (more so when they are involved with reality-preserving schemes, as it turns out) over that of typical Dungeon Monsters that are in many ways meant to be slain.

Now, granted, one can legitimally counter such a stand, but it is not in itself hypocritical.


Because I don't think so. I don't think she cares until it's HER fault. THEN out come the "oh what a senseless waste" tears. What baloney! Saying she's full of it has NOTHING to do with her Lawfulness, it has to do with the fact that she's full of it.

But it does makes her more defensable than Haley or Belkar.

[Glass Mouse]

[COLOR="Red"]An then in strip 573 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html) it shows that despite all their disagreements, they are quite close anyway. She understands Haley's "But they were like, lime green" thing much better than V, in strip 3
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html)

'cause bonding over shoes is the deepest bonding ever :smalltongue:


Seriously, I'm pretty annoyed with Celia, as well. I think it has something to do with the self-righteousness mentioned. Pally-syndrome, Miko-syndrome, whatever you wanna call it.

I think her antics would have worked much better earlier in the story.
In ye typical dungeon crawl, a RL-inspired pacifist could have provided some laughs and added to the general absurdity.
In a more serious story where bastions of good are crushed, the world is threatened with complete destruction, and the heroes are getting increasingly desperate, the same pacifist just comes off as having NO grounding in reality (Aka "stupid") whatsoever.

At least, that's my thought.

[ericgrau]

Celia reminded us that most people in this world are neither adventurers nor soldiers. She provided an alternate perspective on the activities of the party, as an outside observer would see it rather than someone immersed in bloodshed all their lives. And then she took it too far and became a whiny annoying pacifist.

[Zolkabro]

'cause bonding over shoes is the deepest bonding ever :smalltongue:


Well, you know. Fashion these days.

[Janmorel]

Celia reminded us that most people in this world are neither adventurers nor soldiers. She provided an alternate perspective on the activities of the party, as an outside observer would see it rather than someone immersed in bloodshed all their lives. And then she took it too far and became a whiny annoying pacifist.

This. All of it. It has been pointed out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html)to Haley before that their lives are not the norm even for people trained to fight. Celia took it a step further, because she's a civilian. An annoying, whiny, self-righteous civilian.

[veti]

Except for those who actually are total pacifists, I don't think most of us in the real world would actually be taking a "violence is always wrong" position if we were faced with the same situation as Celia is there- we might be horrified to see it happen and unwilling to take part in it, but I don't think we'd generally see violent resistance against a brutal conqueror as something evil that we had to try to stop, as she does.

First: the point is that Celia is the only person who is even remotely "horrified" by violence in any way. Haley and Belkar actively enjoy it, to a greater or lesser degree, and everyone else seems to take it purely in their stride. Celia is the only person we see having a "normal", 21st-century civilised-society reaction to it.

Second, when does she try to stop it? She fully recognises the need for it, even though she personally won't take part. While in Azure City, she's the one who organises the summit conference between the resistance groups, so that they could "put this unfortunate division behind us and focus on the goal of reclaiming your homeland".

She's only a pacifist in that she refuses to use violence herself. She doesn't condemn anyone else for doing it - she just doesn't understand the way Haley and Belkar seem to actively prefer violence over any other approach.


Doing as Celia does- hanging around resistance fighters and depending on their willingness to use violence for your own protection, and then being self-righteous and snarky to their faces about the fact that they think it's acceptable to kill enemy soldiers- well, suffice to say, that doesn't sound like anything I think the average modern person thrust into a D&D world would do, nor does it reflect real-world morality to me, unless you have a very low opinion of real-world morality.

Nor does it sound like anything Celia does. She actually has very little interaction with the resistance fighters, she doesn't "hang around" them, and at no point is she "self-righteous" or "snarky" at them. The only one she gives that treatment to is Haley.

I could speculate as to why that is, but this post is already quite long enough.


And B. Dandelion makes an excellent point that she did nothing to try to help resurrect Solt Lorkyurg or do anything at all for him except scold Haley, which, combined with her initial reaction to the gnome's murder and how she handled the Thieves' Guild situation later, makes her pacifist principles seem like an excuse to be self-righteous far more than they do like the product of a genuine respect for all life.

They're on the run, hiding from enemies, practically broke, and weighed down by one corpse that they already have no means to pay for resurrecting, and you want them to pick up the body of a complete stranger? That's not moral, that's just Lawful Stupid.


So, yeah, I found Celia an intensely dislikable character, and I'm not sure much she was intentionally written to be one. But if the intent of her character was to show how real-world morality clashes with D&D morality, I'd have to call her an utter and resounding failure, and I think Rich is a much better writer than that.

From the first time we see Celia, she's shown as a refugee from a world that works very much like ours. Where you study at school and get homework and have job interviews and a resume and try to get work experience. When we next see her, she's defending clients in a court of law - could there be any more modern setting for her? Third time, she's catapulted into a world of violence and mayhem, and so she starts to freak out. Bad writing? I don't see it.

[B. Dandelion]

Celia did not really steal Haley's money, and in fact #621 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0621.html) has her explicitly stating that she appropriated half of what Haley had stolen, not any money that she might have acquired as Monster Treasure or other legit means.

(I fixed some of your coding there. No insult intended -- it just bugs me, otherwise.)

That's true, she did say "stolen," not "acquired." Though this isn't a distinction anyone else has thought to comment on. We haven't been given any indication that there is a practical difference, which would rather make sense, considering Haley's character, or Hank's character for that matter. I could easily see it meaning nothing since, as her party's Rogue, maybe everything she acquires is considered stolen by default. So it may not necessarily mean anything. Unfortunately, I wonder if we'll ever know whether it did or not, since Haley made it clear she wasn't giving Bozzak anything more, period. Nonetheless, that's a fair point.


And she did it to ensure their survival, so it is unfair to claim that she robbed Haley.

Not quite.

621
CELIA: "As it was, I did the best I could, given the circumstances. I only wish so many hadn't needed to suffer." [vomit]
HANK: "Don't worry, Celia. I have no intention of going back on my part of the deal.
"Celia stipulated as part of the truce that we get the Church of Loki to raise from the dead every Guild thief that you guys killed back there."

622
CELIA: "I had every right to try to reverse deaths that I accidentally helped cause, through any means at my disposal!"
HALEY: "Including using MY money?!?"
CELIA: "You mean, money that you stole from other people who earned it? Hell, yes!

The truce itself, which saved their lives, didn't require that option which is at the heart of the dispute. Celia herself demanded its inclusion.



#539 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html) does not at all imply that she did not care about Solt the Gnome. Much on the contrary, she is shocked as soon as it happens, then stands aside while Haley complains to Belkar, before finally pointing out how absurd Belkar's attempts at rationalization are.

How many hours afterwards is she still mooning over the poor innocent thieves who were doing their level best to murder them all? Quite a different time frame, wouldn't you agree?


Actually yes, it does. She sounds like someone who recognizes that there are choices involved in preserving life, and that sometimes such choices force one to favor the fate of sentient lifeforms (more so when they are involved with reality-preserving schemes, as it turns out) over that of typical Dungeon Monsters that are in many ways meant to be slain.

Like goblins? I thought they were sentient. I mean, isn't the need for the monsters to be sentient because otherwise they wouldn't have a logical reason to be carting around money? Or does D&D have nonsentient monsters that carry around cash for no discernible reason too? I know console RPGs have 'em in spades.


Now, granted, one can legitimally counter such a stand, but it is not in itself hypocritical.

Not if those are sentient lifeforms she's talking about. She only cares about sentient life to the extent that she can criticize other people for it, it only bothers her when it's gone if it's her own damn fault with no one to pin the blame on.


But it does makes her more defensable than Haley or Belkar.

By what metric? I mean, this isn't about whether Celia is a better moral person than they are. It's about her character in its entirety. Belkar and Haley's function to the plot is easier to see.

If you want to use a strictly linear grading scale for morality, I actually sort of have a makeshift one. It started out 1-10, eventually got to 15. Belkar clocks it at 9 (which seems low, honestly). I think Celia and Haley are at 3 and 4, respectively. Which would mean that technically I'd agree with you. Although it makes the descriptions kind of funny in retrospect.



THREE - THE RELUCTANT
ACCEPTANCE

Maturity -- or, if you will, Serenity -- for this group comes in learning to recognize and act upon the responsibilities that their ethics demand of their capabilities, AND in coming to accept the tides of time and change that they cannot hope to control. Their overt conflict may appear to be only one or the other, but they are dual sides of the same dilemma. Perhaps to compensate for the lack of certainty in their own abilities, the Reluctant tends toward black-and-white judgment of others and an inflexible interpretation of rules. This actually can be a virtue if the moral uncertainties and nuances espoused by other characters are just rationalizations for bad behavior, but there's a difference between being skeptical of ambiguities and being unable to recognize them at all. The latter group tends to be poor judges of character. This is a lesson the Three often finds themselves learning (sometimes over and over again), but while they can come to an understanding of more complex morality they tend to stay largely free of it themselves. They may have some resentment regarding their role in life and the sacrifices it's demanded from them, but by and large the only moral transgression they're prone to making is to put their own private concerns above that of the greater good, and even that tends to be done only when the risk is seen as minimal.

The best thing this group can ever do is learn to develop a sense of humor regarding themselves and their own position within the universe. If they're able to laugh, they'll probably turn out all right.

Man, I wish she'd have learned to take herself less seriously. That WOULD have probably helped a lot.

[Kish]

The truce itself, which saved their lives, didn't require that option which is at the heart of the dispute. Celia herself demanded its inclusion.

Well, now, hold it. You think the Thieves' Guild would have agreed to take Haley back without demanding retroactive dues?

I sure don't. It's probably true that they would have agreed to leave the dead people dead. And it's true that both Haley and people on the forum seem to link the "the Guild resurrects everyone" clause to the "Haley pays the Guild half of what she's stolen" clause. But the actual contract terms we've been given have no such link.

[B. Dandelion]

Well, now, hold it. You think the Thieves' Guild would have agreed to take Haley back without demanding retroactive dues?

I sure don't. It's probably true that they would have agreed to leave the dead people dead. And it's true that both Haley and people on the forum seem to link the "the Guild resurrects everyone" clause to the "Haley pays the Guild half of what she's stolen" clause. But the actual contract terms we've been given have no such link.

I don't think they'd have taken her back without retroactive dues, no. But the link you're talking about was the one Celia, Hank and Haley all seemed to be implying. It's possible they would have demanded half of her stolen goods regardless -- but that's not the line of reasoning being used to defend that move. Why not just tell Haley that it was the only way to get a truce at all, instead of argue that she'd had it coming anyway because it was never her money in the first place? The resurrection of the other thieves would then have no bearing on it at all, really, it'd just be additional terms Celia added that eased her own conscience, not at the expense of anyone else.

It might turn out to be a false implication either due to my reading or possibly even deceptive intent on the part of the Giant, but yeah, I'd say there's evidence that link exists.

[Shale]

Well, now, hold it. You think the Thieves' Guild would have agreed to take Haley back without demanding retroactive dues?

I sure don't. It's probably true that they would have agreed to leave the dead people dead. And it's true that both Haley and people on the forum seem to link the "the Guild resurrects everyone" clause to the "Haley pays the Guild half of what she's stolen" clause. But the actual contract terms we've been given have no such link.

My thinking is that they would have demanded the 50% regardless, but Celia only agreed because some of it would go toward reviving everybody.

[Lissou]

My thinking is that they would have demanded the 50% regardless, but Celia only agreed because some of it would go toward reviving everybody.

I think the same way.
The whole "Let's make a contract" idea came from the idea of pretending Haley had never left them. As a result, they were going to ask for her money. I'm sure Celia isn't the one who suggested that one.
I'm pretty confident that however, she would have suggested they use part of the money to raise the people who died.

But keep in mind, at this point, she has no idea what's going on and what's the battle status. For all she knos, Haley could be one of the people needing raising.
The only way they could reach an agreement was for them both to think it was beneficial to them. Celia probably thought they were losing. It certainly was the situation up to the point she worked on the contract with Hank.

As for why she didn't explain any of that to Haley, well, after she found a way to resolve everything peacefully (without knowing Haley was winning), Celia gets insulted by Haley, without knowing why, and Haley start shouting about how it's "her" money and Celia had "no right". That would hit a nerve with me, too: Haley is the one who takes other people's money all the time, and she talks about not having the right to take "her" money? I totally understand Celia for getting upset.

I understand both of them, actually, I think it's a very realistic argument they're having. I don't think her snappy comment means that when agreeing to the contract, that's how she felt. It's a reaction to feeling assaulted by Haley, who should be thanking her (from her point of view).
Seriously, when you get yelled at, chances are you're going to answer by yelling too, especially if you have no reason to believe you did something really wrong. Haley doesn't mention her father. She just seems to be worried about losing some of the money she stole from others. To Celia, she sounds selfish and ungrateful.

[B. Dandelion]

As for why she didn't explain any of that to Haley, well, after she found a way to resolve everything peacefully (without knowing Haley was winning), Celia gets insulted by Haley, without knowing why, and Haley start shouting about how it's "her" money and Celia had "no right". That would hit a nerve with me, too: Haley is the one who takes other people's money all the time, and she talks about not having the right to take "her" money? I totally understand Celia for getting upset.

Y'know, from the lead-in of 622, what with Belkar's opening and his assertion that the girls had been arguing for hours, I hadn't actually had the impression that the conversation going on between Haley and Celia in 622 took place immediately after the final panel of 621. I thought it was cut to the middle of an extended argument.

This works, though. I hadn't thought of it before, but it does.


I understand both of them, actually, I think it's a very realistic argument they're having. I don't think her snappy comment means that when agreeing to the contract, that's how she felt. It's a reaction to feeling assaulted by Haley, who should be thanking her (from her point of view).
Seriously, when you get yelled at, chances are you're going to answer by yelling too, especially if you have no reason to believe you did something really wrong. Haley doesn't mention her father. She just seems to be worried about losing some of the money she stole from others. To Celia, she sounds selfish and ungrateful.

I like your interpretation, Lissou, but I still find it kind of frustrating if I have to assume it's framed this way. They kept arguing for hours and their relationship (such as it was) never recovered, but it never even CAME UP that Celia'd had no choice? Or else I have to assume that Haley is the one being completely unreasonable in being angry with Celia because it totally wasn't her fault, at all, 100%, despite the fact that all prior evidence would lead me to believe Celia is the only one of the two seen to engage in such behavior? This is what I had in mind when I talked about "deceptive intent."

[Kish]

From Haley's perspective, of course Celia had a choice: Mention the "their cut of your earnings is down to 50% from what it used to be now, but it's retroactive" part of the deal, declare the deal off, and let her kill Bozzok. Find a way to retrieve Roy from Grubwiggler and get Durkon to resurrect him later. Haley and Celia both behaved as they consistently had from their first disagreement over the morality of killing: As if the other one's viewpoint existed for snarky comments, not comprehension.

[SPoD]

The point of Celia--at least during her post-Battle-of-Azure-City appearances, is twofold:

1.) To thematically explore the impact of the level of violence inherent in the D&D game. Whether or not she represents a "real-world" morality, she certainly represents a conflicting morality, and thus contrasts with the cavalier attitude towards murder that even Good-aligned adventurers have. Note that I said "explore" rather than "criticize" because Celia is sometimes rather clearly in the wrong--she's a character rather than a personified Author Tract simply because she doesn't get to be right all the time.

2.) To highlight and emphasize the fact that despite recent heroism, Haley is not a hero (in the traditional sense) and is not really suited to the task of leadership. And, perhaps, to further push Haley down the road of being less heroic by virtue of her determination to thwart Celia. Would Haley have killed Crystal if it weren't for Celia's actions AND Celia's constant harping about killing? Probably not. And it is almost certain that Crystal's death will be significant.

Everything else (Exposition Fairy, prodding Haley into leaving AC, etc.) is just the details of the plot, and any character can do that if the situation is right. The above were story tasks that only Celia, with her specific viewpoint, could have performed.

[B. Dandelion]

From Haley's perspective, of course Celia had a choice: Mention the "their cut of your earnings is down to 50% from what it used to be now, but it's retroactive" part of the deal, declare the deal off, and let her kill Bozzok. Find a way to retrieve Roy from Grubwiggler and get Durkon to resurrect him later.

That's not what I meant -- it's not Celia's fault then that she couldn't get the deal UNLESS she threw that bit in about the 50% retroactive payment. That means the resurrection of the thieves Haley killed is not an issue at all, because it would have been the same whether or not Celia arranged to have them brought back to life. But that's what, to all appearances, they are arguing about.


Haley and Celia both behaved as they consistently had from their first disagreement over the morality of killing: As if the other one's viewpoint existed for snarky comments, not comprehension.

Oh, I know. What I find frustrating is that with this kind of setup, usually there's merit to both sides which can be seen by the readers, just not one another. But in this case, it seems like Celia hardly ever offers a valid POV, while Haley is at worst kind of callous -- not faultless, not remotely, but still generally reasonable. So Celia didn't work in good counterpoint to Haley, she doesn't really offer an additional insight.

[SPoD]

But in this case, it seems like Celia hardly ever offers a valid POV (snip) So Celia didn't work in good counterpoint to Haley, she doesn't really offer an additional insight.

I propose that this is a matter of personal opinion. In your view, Celia's POV isn't ever valid. I don't think everyone agrees on this point, and I would say that Rich almost certainly doesn't. I doubt he would have bothered if he didn't find some of her beliefs worth discussing.

[B. Dandelion]

2.) To highlight and emphasize the fact that despite recent heroism, Haley is not a hero (in the traditional sense) and is not really suited to the task of leadership.

An excellent point.


And, perhaps, to further push Haley down the road of being less heroic by virtue of her determination to thwart Celia. Would Haley have killed Crystal if it weren't for Celia's actions AND Celia's constant harping about killing? Probably not. And it is almost certain that Crystal's death will be significant.

I think I alluded to this in the OP.


What I'm thinking is that she might have been brought in either to signal or possibly even kick off future development for Haley.

Yes, I'd like to see this bear fruit.


I propose that this is a matter of personal opinion. In your view, Celia's POV isn't ever valid. I don't think everyone agrees on this point, and I would say that Rich almost certainly doesn't. I doubt he would have bothered if he didn't find some of her beliefs worth discussing.

Ah, but that's your conjecture. In fact this was part of my overall point in the OP -- it seems like she wasn't SET UP to be insightful (which is not the same as saying they're not worth discussing). Not like Rich failed, but like he wasn't trying, for some reason.

I also didn't say she was NEVER valid. Just seldom.

[pjackson]

But in this case, it seems like Celia hardly ever offers a valid POV, while Haley is at worst kind of callous -- not faultless, not remotely, but still generally reasonable. So Celia didn't work in good counterpoint to Haley, she doesn't really offer an additional insight.

Haley may be reasonable, but no more so than Celia.

There was nothing invalid about Celia's PoV regarding the negotiations with the guild. The situation had seemed hopeless. Haley was expecting them to need resurrecting. Celia found a way out. She used the money Haley has stolen (and thus had no right to) to save the lives of the the party and saw that it was put to good use in resurrecting the dead. Celia did not know that Haley already had a good use planned for the money, but that was Haley's fault not Celia's. She did not know that Haley and Belkar had managed to get the advantage in the fight. Her expectation that the fight would be lost had been set by Haley. Celia had good reasons to expect praise for having saved their lives. Instead Haley complained about the loss of money apparently out of pure greed. Celia's resulting anger is entirely reasonable and valid.

[Lissou]

Or else I have to assume that Haley is the one being completely unreasonable in being angry with Celia because it totally wasn't her fault, at all, 100%, despite the fact that all prior evidence would lead me to believe Celia is the only one of the two seen to engage in such behavior? This is what I had in mind when I talked about "deceptive intent."

Well, see, the way I see it Haley is upset because she now owes money to the guild, which is Celia's fault since she made the deal (whether the clause was her idea or not), and because Celia didn't warn her while she could still kill Bozzok and say she didn't take the deal.

She's not being unreasonable, or if she is, it makes sense for her to be... Her father is in danger, and she was getting close to having enough money, and now she's down to only 50% of that? When she could have just killed Bozzok and found her own way to get Roy back?
It's not completely unrealistic either to imagine that Haley is also upset at herself, not necessarily consciously. If she didn't keep hiding things from other people, they wouldn't mess up with her plans without knowing.

Celia is a lawyer. When she signs a contract, when she makes a deal, she has to take full responsability for all clauses. Including those she didn't suggest in the first place. It doesn't make sense for a lawyer to say "Sure, I signed the contract, but that clause you dislike wasn't my idea". She already signed it.
She could recognise she made a mistake in agreeing to sign it, or turn it against the person who is upset with her. Being Celia (I like her, but it's obvious she doesn't like being wrong), she takes the second route.

And the fact that she might not have decided on the clause doesn't change the fact that she considered it acceptable, and that she later hid it from her "client". Obviously, she knew Haley wouldn't like it, although she misjudged by how much it would upset her.

I've had hour long arguments, you tend to shout things that you think will hurt the other person, and hide things you're weirdly ashamed of. I'll give you a stupid example from my actual life.

I was going to makwe myself a sandwich and my husband knew that. But he made one for me instead and brought it to me.
It wasn't the way I like it. I was busy, upset about stuff, and I snapped that I was going to make my own sandwich, that he knew that but made one instead (and the way I saw it at the time, it was... well it's weird but it felt like he was telling me I wasn't able to make my own sandwich, or that he hadn't listened when I told him I'd do it myself) and that he wasted the bread for one that I couldn't eat... thinking back I sound really bad >.>

He didn't say "I'm sorry, I made that sandwich because you were busy and I thought you would appreciate". If he had, I would have calmed down immediately, realising he was right and I was stupid to get upset. Instead, he yelled back about how I was obviously too good to spend some time with him or something, which he recognised afterwards he had just made up on the spot because he couldn't think of anything else.

So basically, his reaction was, upon being blamed for something he thought would make me happy, to blame me. Not explain his reasons. Because he didn't want to admit he was trying to be nice. He was upset with me, so he was upset with himself for trying to be nice with me and didn't want to recognise it.

So I think it makes sense for Celia to send the blame back to Haley rather than saying "that was the only way to get the deal and for all I knew you were dead too". Especially since she has no clue why Haley is so upset apart from "she's more greedy than I thought" which obviously doesn't make Haley look good.

And now they're upset with each other and both feel they have valid reasons to be. At least Celia seems to realise she's missing something, when she talks to Roy. Haley obviously is still too upset, which makes sense since she was hurt in a more personal way with bigger stakes.

[B. Dandelion]

Wow, Lissou, you're awesome. I don't even think I can counter that. I feel like I should thank you, since you're pretty much forcing me to reconsider. (Although in a way I kind of want to kick you for that too... sorry, hope you understand.)


Well, see, the way I see it Haley is upset because she now owes money to the guild, which is Celia's fault since she made the deal (whether the clause was her idea or not), and because Celia didn't warn her while she could still kill Bozzok and say she didn't take the deal.

She's not being unreasonable, or if she is, it makes sense for her to be... Her father is in danger, and she was getting close to having enough money, and now she's down to only 50% of that? When she could have just killed Bozzok and found her own way to get Roy back?

She had Bozzak at her mercy. That's right. I guess that was the deciding factor. Makes too much sense to ignore since you've pointed it out.


It's not completely unrealistic either to imagine that Haley is also upset at herself, not necessarily consciously. If she didn't keep hiding things from other people, they wouldn't mess up with her plans without knowing.

Back when I was defending Celia I remember bringing up the point that she never told Celia WHY she should stay away from Greysky except that it was a bad, bad place. Not a place with powerful personal enemies of hers.

I can't think of any clever comments to the rest of this, especially since I think you've pretty much made your point, at least to me. But, again, thanks. Or, conversely, damn you!

[Trobby]

The primary purpose of putting Celia into the story? Very simple.

He needed a way to get Haley out of the fallen Azure City. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html)

Haley has been holed up there for months now. If Belkar was going to get her to leave, he would've done it by now. Nobody in the resistance force would want her to go (save the rival resistance forces, and if she gave into pressure that easily after months, why not days, or weeks? It wouldn't make sense), and it resolves the whole "why didn't Roy's talisman break when he needed it to most of all?"

And after finding out that her boyfriend is dead in a cart and needing resurrection, do you really think Celia would just up and leave, assuming that Haley would take care of everything?

I know I wouldn't. I'd follow my lover's body around until I personally saw the magic work. I'd want to be the first to embrace my lover when they finally came back from the dead, and to comfort them, should their post-mortum experience be less than pleasant.

So while Celia may not have played a major contributing role to any sort of literary metaphor, I don't think her presence was entirely uncalled for. While she was there, he could also play with the idea of a Lawful Good outsider having to cope with the malleable moral guidelines of a DnD world, and Celia's actions, while obtusely optimistic, reflect someone who isn't exactly part of the same world as Haley Starshine. Haley's too smart to let herself get caught up in the short of havoc that occurred in her hometown, but Celia doesn't know any better.

That, and Celia isn't an adventurer. She doesn't know that a creepy old man with several golem-like beings isn't going to bring her boyfriend back from the dead.

Admittedly, she's more selfish than she thinks, and completely disregards the needs of others, but that's because she's altruistic, and very young (still in college, in fact), so she barely understands the concept of other people needing money.