PDA

View Full Version : The mechanical power of halflings (3.5)



Frog Dragon
2009-09-18, 07:07 AM
I've noticed that most people think that Dwarf is the king and Elf is the secod best race. While I will not contest the first claim the second, I will. How about halflings?
They seem to be actually very good. They make good casters (small size, dex bonus), great rogues (for the same reasons) and quite good warriors (while the lowered weapon damage dice hurts a bit as does the strenght, most damage is done with bonuses (PA, Leap Attack.. etc) and the strenght penalty can easily be overcome by just throwing a large number at it, especially when you don't need to buff your Dex and get a size bonus to armor class. The to hit bonus also helps)
They also get their save bonuses which I find to be very helpful.
All in all, the little fellas seem more powerful than elves.

Thoughts?

kamikasei
2009-09-18, 07:12 AM
Who is it you see saying elves are great? I was under the impression they were considered a fairly sub-par race. Humans are generally the king of +0 LA (feats are precious, skill points are gold), while dwarves and warforged have good racial abilities and gnomes and halflings are useful as casters (with Strongheart halflings being on par with humans in most assessments).

Frog Dragon
2009-09-18, 07:13 AM
I can't give an example right now, but i've seen lots of it.

Tavar
2009-09-18, 07:17 AM
Elves mostly get mentioned when using one of their many sub-races in conjunction with a full caster to get more spell per day/increase DC's(interesting note, Dwarves actually have more sub-races). Still, I'd agree that Human generally get top billing.

Yora
2009-09-18, 07:25 AM
I agree that halflings seem to be on the strong side of races.

Unless you start with a Strength score of 13 or higher, you come out even at ability points or with a considerable boost if you take Dexterity of 15 or higher.
Being small gets you a bonus to AC, attack and Hide.
+1 to all saves seems a very strong ability to me.
+2 to Climb, Jump, Listen, and Move Silently isn't that much, but all useful for stealth.

If you play a Rogue, halflings are just awsome, especially at low levels. You can get Hide to +14 at 1st level. The lack of ability to see in the dark is a small drawback, but that's very easy to overcome with magic items.

While writing some custom homebrew races, I noticed that it's only most of the core player races that have these tonnes of ability. About every other 1 HD humanoid in the MM, half-orcs, and special Eberron races only have Ability modifiers, one mode of special Vision, a bonus to two skills and maybe one special ability.
It's really mostly Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, and Halflings that have racial abilities that read like a grocery list.

kamikasei
2009-09-18, 07:34 AM
I can't give an example right now, but i've seen lots of it.

Hmmm. Would you say this was by people fairly knowledgeable in the system, or by more casual players? I mean, it's not all that surprising that elves might look better than they turn out to be when you consider the matter more closely.


It's really mostly Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, and Halflings that have racial abilities that read like a grocery list.

Legacy. Core races had a list of things they could do in previous editions that the designers wanted to keep, even if it amounted to a smattering of rather incoherent and pointless bonuses and immunities.

Yora
2009-09-18, 07:36 AM
I've read the AD&D complete book of dwarves and elves, and unless they left the basic abilities out, they didn't have that many racial abilities.

Mongoose87
2009-09-18, 07:41 AM
I had a friend play a halfling Ranger/Barbarian, from the Talenta plains in Eberron. He added the roll of his action points to his damage, and his damage was the DC to not be stunned by his boomerang. Deadly.

Eldariel
2009-09-18, 07:45 AM
Human is the best race by a long shot. It's really not even up for contention (as long as we play in an environment where feats are useful; Core Fighter wouldn't really benefit of being Human other than maxing out slightly faster since Core Fighter feats suck so much, but Druid, Wizard, Cleric & Sorcerer appreciate the extra feat a ton). Likewise, Dwarves are second and the third...well, Halflings are nice, but Gnomes are mechanically stronger (Con is the stronger ability of the two, the Illusion-bonus makes them awesome casters and yeah).

Elves are only superior to Half-Orcs (which are completely eclipsed by full Orcs) and Half-Elves (which are good for nothing) 'cause 3.5 screwed up Half-races something severe. Now, if we start talking about Elven subraces, that's a different matter; Gray Elf is an excellent Wizard race (or Factotum or whatever), for one and Wood Elves make great Archers/TWFers. And for most classes, Wild Elves are a decent option.

Telonius
2009-09-18, 08:31 AM
There's also the matter of Strongheart Halflings, if you have access to Forgotten Realms. Same as regular halflings, only you get a feat (with no bonus on saves). It's one of the of the strongest +0 LA races out there.

Vangor
2009-09-18, 08:53 AM
My favored race for practically anything is Strongheart Halfling. An effective +2 to AC, +1 to Hit, +1 Reflex, a smattering of additional skill points amounting to +12, +1 more on Throwing, +2 vs Fear, and a Feat? Beyond a Desert Orc for straight Melee types, I cannot think of anything I wouldn't be a Strongheart in. Regular Halflings, about as good.

bosssmiley
2009-09-18, 10:22 AM
Incredibly limited. They only have stumpy arms and poor endurance, see? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(physics))

Person_Man
2009-09-18, 10:38 AM
Elves are the strongest race in 4e. In 3.5, they suck.

IMO, the top no LA races in 3.5 are:

Human: Bonus feat and Skill points.
Dwarf: Numerous good bonuses, racial PrC.
Strongheart Halfling: Bonus feat and small size (useful for mounted builds)
Whisper Gnome (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3): Good bonuses, small size w/ 30 ft movement, racial feats.
Neraphim (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040613a&page=2): Outsider type, +2 NA bonus, Neraph Camouflage.
Darfellon: +2 Str, Bite attack, swim abilities.
Elan (www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm): Aberation type, naturally psionic, Resilience, Resistance, racial feats.
Raptorian: Fly speed.
Dragonborn: Draconic Aspect (fly speed or breath weapon)
Variant Kobold (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a): 2 claws + bite, Slight build, small size w/ 30 ft movement, +1 NA, racial feats.

There are a few others that are particularly good for certain builds (Incarnum races, etc). But for the most part, I only use halflings for mounted builds, and even then I only use the strongheart variant.

Epinephrine
2009-09-18, 10:45 AM
Incredibly limited. They only have stumpy arms and poor endurance, see? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(physics))

What? Halflings are related to Tyrannosaurids (http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/2009/09/raptorex_tiny_king_of_thieves_shows_how_tyrannosau rus_body_p.php)? I suppose that explains a lot...

thubby
2009-09-18, 10:46 AM
speed 20 can be a problem.

Eldariel
2009-09-18, 11:44 AM
Elves are the strongest race in 4e. In 3.5, they suck.

IMO, the top no LA races in 3.5 are:

Human: Bonus feat and Skill points.
Dwarf: Numerous good bonuses, racial PrC.
Strongheart Halfling: Bonus feat and small size (useful for mounted builds)
Whisper Gnome (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3): Good bonuses, small size w/ 30 ft movement, racial feats.
Neraphim (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040613a&page=2): Outsider type, +2 NA bonus, Neraph Camouflage.
Darfellon: +2 Str, Bite attack, swim abilities.
Elan (www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm): Aberation type, naturally psionic, Resilience, Resistance, racial feats.
Raptorian: Fly speed.
Dragonborn: Draconic Aspect (fly speed or breath weapon)
Variant Kobold (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a): 2 claws + bite, Slight build, small size w/ 30 ft movement, +1 NA, racial feats.

There are a few others that are particularly good for certain builds (Incarnum races, etc). But for the most part, I only use halflings for mounted builds, and even then I only use the strongheart variant.

If we talk about ALL races, I definitely would toss Dwarves a bit lower, and add a few:
(Dragonborn) Water Orc: +4 Str, +2 Con, penalties to mentals, swim-speed (loses NOTHING but Light Sensitivity going Dragonborn making it one of the best Dragonborn races in the game)
Lesser Tiefling: Just plain great adjustments, handy spell-like; solid unsocial Rogues
Lesser Aasimar: Just plain great adjustments; nice Clerics
Aasimar (Racial Progression 1st level; you get Outsider-type AND +2 Cha!): POLYMORPH! Perfect for Gishy Sorcerers, Bards and the like.
Warforged: They have many great exclusive feats and immunities.
Changeling: Qualification for any racial stuff, überskills Rogue substitution, nice abilities overall.
Illumian: Some of the sigils and combinations really kick ass.
Shifter: Great Druid PrC :smalltongue: Also, variants exist to boost basically anything.
Water Halfling: +2 Con, +2 Dex, enough said.
(Dragonborn) Fire Elf & Gray Elf: +2 Dex, +2 Int is a solid combination for a number of things.
Azurin: Incarnum Humans, can't be bad.
Synad: Extra actions, can't be bad.
Silverbrow Human: Draconic Human, can't be bad.

It's worth noting that elven Racial Weapon Proficiencies are extremely valuable in some Gish PrC qualifications for casters.

LibraryOgre
2009-09-18, 12:35 PM
Elves are the strongest race in 4e. In 3.5, they suck.

I don't know that I'd buy that. For light armored mobility builds, sure, they're pretty good... but for tankers? People's whose job it is to stand in one place and keep everyone from getting by?

HCL
2009-09-18, 12:40 PM
Halflings are WAY better than elves for anythign except maybe a barbarian (but really when you are talking about the power level of races what really matters is how good they are with casters)

woodenbandman
2009-09-18, 01:02 PM
Halfling Barbarian > Elf Barbarian. Halflings have no con penalty, and their small size makes up for their lower strength in added power attack return (you power attack for 1 more than normal). Plus with Rage, Frenzy, Fury, Bear Warrior, whatever, a Halfling has almost as much strength as any orc, and you're talking about the loss of 20 damage per round, tops, when you're dealing with numbers in the hundreds if you optimize properly.

Eldariel
2009-09-18, 01:13 PM
Halfling Barbarian > Elf Barbarian. Halflings have no con penalty, and their small size makes up for their lower strength in added power attack return (you power attack for 1 more than normal). Plus with Rage, Frenzy, Fury, Bear Warrior, whatever, a Halfling has almost as much strength as any orc, and you're talking about the loss of 20 damage per round, tops, when you're dealing with numbers in the hundreds if you optimize properly.

I dunno. Lost Movement Speed is pretty huge for melee, and the +1 To Hit is counterbalanced by -1 to hit from Str. Not to mention, penalties to Tripping.

grubblybubbly
2009-09-18, 01:18 PM
halflings rule! the benefeits of being small completely outnumber the bad stuff. unless your a fighter or barbarian, you'll probably rarely grapple. and at higher levels, the damadge difference from smaller weapons is insignificant when you stack on magic bonuses. and weapon finesse can substitute dex for strenth on attacks. andthen you get a +1 AC and +1 attack, +4 hide (verry useful for rogues and spellcasters:smallwink:). overall, small rules! plus halflings get +2 on climb jump and move silently, +1 on all saves and more!

Keld Denar
2009-09-18, 01:22 PM
Glimmerskin Halflings make good Dragonfire Insp Bards, especially if they are Glimmerskin Strongheart Halflings. The +3 to hit (effectively) with slings and daggers is really nice at low levels, and DFI stacks on the damage relatively quick.

aje8
2009-09-18, 01:24 PM
I know nothing on 4E.

3.5:
Human
Strongheart Halfling
Whisper Gnome

Other races fail by comparison.

CockroachTeaParty
2009-09-18, 02:05 PM
I think my biggest beef with halflings and gnomes (and to a lesser extent, dwarves) is their speed reduction.

Sure, the halfling gets +2 to jump, but because of the speed penalty they're already taking a -6 to it, essentially just lessening the hit they take. Their other racial abilities are okay, and if you're a caster mobility might not necessarily be as much of an issue, but for rogues and other warriors that speed penalty hurts. Dwarves typically favor heavy armor, so they don't care as much, but you start to miss that 15 foot Tumble check when all you can manage is 10 feet. Plus, it's tough to reach that top shelf as one of the wee folk.

A 1st level spell gives most of the benefits of being small (Reduce Person), and is easy enough to learn (or maybe UMD an eternal wand, or something). Aside from the benefits of being small and some minor skill boosts, about the only real thing going for halflings is the bonus to all their saves, and that starts to look pretty shabby compared to a feat and 23 skill points...

Don't get me wrong, I like me my halflings (and the occasional gnome, for spice). Whisper gnomes, however, are another pack of cards entirely, perhaps being the closest a LA +0 race can come to the +0/+1 border.

Person_Man
2009-09-18, 03:11 PM
I don't know that I'd buy that. For light armored mobility builds, sure, they're pretty good... but for tankers? People's whose job it is to stand in one place and keep everyone from getting by?

I'll concede that there are better races for defenders. And I'll also say that I haven't played any non-core 4E games, so I have no idea if the PHB2 though 10 have even more powerful races. But from what I've observed, Elven Accuracy and Wild Step are ridiculously useful for strikers and controllers, and certain leader builds.

ericgrau
2009-09-18, 03:17 PM
Yeah, halflings are great at all things mentioned. Like others, I do not understand this "powerful elf" you speak of. Maybe it was the 2e elf?

Cieyrin
2009-09-18, 04:04 PM
If you play a Rogue, halflings are just awsome, especially at low levels. You can get Hide to +14 at 1st level. The lack of ability to see in the dark is a small drawback, but that's very easy to overcome with magic items.

Just play a Stout Halfling. Crack open your MM and see the Halfling subraces and you see the 3 subraces of halfling in Core: Lightfoot (normal Halfling), Tallfellow (Halfling with a little Elf mixed in. Even better rogue, since you get the elven detection abilities :smallbiggrin:) and Stout (or Deep) Halfling (Halfling with a bit more Dwarf than the Tallfellow has Elf, for Darkvision and Stonecunning.

Leewei
2009-09-18, 04:17 PM
Tanks and generally anyone dealing melee damage is best off being either Medium or Large due to the reach bonus. Gnomes and Halflings suffer because they don't get a lot of mileage from enlarge person. At later levels, you can polymorph them into a Fire Giant or the like well enough, I suppose. At that point, race doesn't count for much anymore (excpet for the Human bonus feat, anyhow).

FMArthur
2009-09-18, 08:48 PM
Dragonborn elves can be good, since most of their racial abilities are basically ignorable, leaving you with +2 Dex -2 Con and the adjustments of whatever elven subrace you are (ordinary elves are nearly worthless). Grey elves and fire elves in particular are often selected for the ultra-rare Int bonus at LA 0. Unfortunately, Con is the one stat you should never trade for any other single stat bonus, so the Dragonborn template (+2 con, -2 dex) eliminates that problem.

Eldariel
2009-09-19, 03:36 AM
Dragonborn elves can be good, since most of their racial abilities are basically ignorable, leaving you with +2 Dex -2 Con and the adjustments of whatever elven subrace you are (ordinary elves are nearly worthless). Grey elves and fire elves in particular are often selected for the ultra-rare Int bonus at LA 0. Unfortunately, Con is the one stat you should never trade for any other single stat bonus, so the Dragonborn template (+2 con, -2 dex) eliminates that problem.

The proficiencies can be worthwhile though, effectively amounting to an extra feat in a build like Swiftblade/Abjurant Champion or Archer Cleric. So non-Dragonborn Elves have something going on for them.

LibraryOgre
2009-09-19, 09:29 AM
I'll concede that there are better races for defenders. And I'll also say that I haven't played any non-core 4E games, so I have no idea if the PHB2 though 10 have even more powerful races. But from what I've observed, Elven Accuracy and Wild Step are ridiculously useful for strikers and controllers, and certain leader builds.

They are, but dwarves make for fabulous defenders and pretty good leaders. Being able to heal themselves as a minor action is a big benefit for defenders, and without using up their encounter heals (for leaders). Dropping the forced movement distance by 1 keeps them where they want to be.