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View Full Version : [3.5] When will helmets get the recognition they deserve?



AxeD
2009-09-18, 08:29 AM
Seriously, unless it's magical (or made from adamantine?) helms are practically worthless. You'd think that it'd provide an AC bonus similar to that of a small shield.

Thoughts, opinions?

Myou
2009-09-18, 08:36 AM
Helmets are included in armour. :smalltongue:

Mordokai
2009-09-18, 08:37 AM
In AD&D, even non-magical helmets provided immunity to critical hits. Needles to say, that made them quite powerful among fighter types, since they were the only ones that could use them.

Note: the above is based on my experience with Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale computer games. I have never actually played AD&D in tabletop version, so somebody who did might find these information totally untrue.

Zovc
2009-09-18, 08:37 AM
Seriously, unless it's magical (or made from adamantine?) helms are practically worthless. You'd think that it'd provide an AC bonus similar to that of a small shield.

Thoughts, opinions?

In Baldur's Gate (And NWN?), helmets gave you immunity to critical hits.

Kaiyanwang
2009-09-18, 08:37 AM
Helmets are included in armour. :smalltongue:

This. If you say "full plate" ad you say "+8 armor", it's because in the +8 (and in its encumberance, armor chek, and so on) there is the helmet.

AxeD
2009-09-18, 08:39 AM
Helmets are included in armour. :smalltongue:

I know that they are a part of full plate armor, but can you say, wear the same helmet with leather armour? Would it affect it at all? Could a spell caster wear a helmet without penalty? I can't imagine how it would cause arcane spell failure.

woodenbandman
2009-09-18, 08:44 AM
I always thought that your heroic hair had to be free to billow in the wind if you wanted to benefit from your armor.

Telonius
2009-09-18, 08:44 AM
Helmets of some variety are included in the description for the best suits of armor at each weight level. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#armorDescriptions):


Breastplate
It comes with a helmet and greaves.

Chain Shirt
A chain shirt comes with a steel cap.

Full Plate
The suit includes gauntlets, heavy leather boots, a visored helmet, and a thick layer of padding that is worn underneath the armor.


Since it's part of the armor, I'd think that the AC granted by the armor would be affected in some way by its presence. And in fact, these three sets grant the highest AC of the Medium, Light, and Heavy armors respectively.

I do think that it would make sense that if somebody wearing padded armor put on a steel cap, that would give him a bit better protection. But the rules don't really support mixing and matching different sets of armor, and don't give any indication what kind of a bump that might be. I'd be inclined to houserule a helmet as a +1 AC, +1 armor check penalty, -1 Dex Bonus (gotta worry about it flying off), 5% arcane spell failure item that can't be enchanted as though it were normal armor.

kamikasei
2009-09-18, 08:45 AM
It's just a convention (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HelmetsAreHardlyHeroic). People look better when you can see their heads properly, so the game doesn't penalize you for going about without your helmet. Personally I'd say it's a good convention and might as well be stuck to.


Since it's part of the armor, I'd think that the AC granted by the armor would be affected in some way by its presence. And in fact, these three sets grant the highest AC of the Medium, Light, and Heavy armors respectively.

But note that you can replace those helms with, say, a headband of intellect and take no AC or other penalty for doing so.

JeenLeen
2009-09-18, 08:46 AM
I know that they are a part of full plate armor, but can you say, wear the same helmet with leather armour? Would it affect it at all? Could a spell caster wear a helmet without penalty? I can't imagine how it would cause arcane spell failure.

Same logic that an Animated Shield doesn't add to touch AC, since touching it is still the same as touching you who doesn't touch it :smallbiggrin:

In other words, I agree that helmets should work. It would be mechanically difficult, though, since you'd have to divide helmet AC from armor AC, like how shield bonuses are separate. I guess you could have it be a conditional 'hemlet bonus to AC' that doesn't apply if you are wearing heavy armor.

Grumman
2009-09-18, 08:47 AM
I'd be inclined to houserule a helmet as a +1 AC, +1 armor check penalty, -1 Dex Bonus (gotta worry about it flying off), 5% arcane spell failure item that can't be enchanted as though it were normal armor.
I'd suggest the same, but without the -1 Dex Bonus. Quite simply, max Dex bonuses aren't supposed to be cumulative.

kamikasei
2009-09-18, 08:48 AM
It would be mechanically difficult, though, since you'd have to divide helmet AC from armor AC, like how shield bonuses are separate. I guess you could have it be a conditional 'hemlet bonus to AC' that doesn't apply if you are wearing heavy armor.

If you want that level of detail, the proper way to go about it would be to use hit locations and work out what parts of the body different armours cover. And if you want that level of detail, the proper way to go about it would be to play a different system with a halfway realistic combat mechanic. D&D is just too abstracted to support it.

AxeD
2009-09-18, 08:50 AM
Helmets of some variety are included in the description for the best suits of armor at each weight level. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#armorDescriptions):



Since it's part of the armor, I'd think that the AC granted by the armor would be affected in some way by its presence. And in fact, these three sets grant the highest AC of the Medium, Light, and Heavy armors respectively.

I do think that it would make sense that if somebody wearing padded armor put on a steel cap, that would give him a bit better protection. But the rules don't really support mixing and matching different sets of armor, and don't give any indication what kind of a bump that might be. I'd be inclined to houserule a helmet as a +1 AC, +1 armor check penalty, -1 Dex Bonus (gotta worry about it flying off), 5% arcane spell failure item that can't be enchanted as though it were normal armor.

Hmm, do you think it would be acceptable for a great helm to be about: +2 AC, +2 armour check penalty, -5 to spot and listen checks?

BTW how would magic come into play? for example you get shields with AC bonus enhancements?

Grynning
2009-09-18, 08:58 AM
If you want super-detailed armor rules, check out Mongoose's Conan d20 RPG. It uses armor as DR and level based AC, but it does have rules for helmets, layering various armor types, etc. It also has probably the most nitpicky and in-depth combat rules of any d20 system game, so it's definitely not meant for casual gamers, YMMV.

Jarawara
2009-09-18, 09:24 AM
But note that you can replace those helms with, say, a headband of intellect and take no AC or other penalty for doing so.

Player: "I remove my helmet, and place upon my head the Headband of Intellect."

DM: "Your mind swirls with newfound intellect, and suddenly you become aware at how un-intelligent it is to remove your helmet."

Player: "oh... right."

:smalltongue:

kamikasei
2009-09-18, 09:28 AM
Note that for a higher-level Factotum, for example, swapping the helmet for a headband of intellect actually increases your AC.

Morty
2009-09-18, 09:28 AM
Since AC and HP are both largely abstract, I wouldn't include any additional rules for wearing a helmet from a different armor type. It'd be too much hassle to make up all those rules.

Renegade Paladin
2009-09-18, 09:33 AM
I'd be inclined to houserule a helmet as a +1 AC, +1 armor check penalty, -1 Dex Bonus (gotta worry about it flying off), 5% arcane spell failure item that can't be enchanted as though it were normal armor.
Flying off? I don't know what kind of helmets you wear, but I've never encountered a combat helmet (and I've worn a few) that would just fly off. Because if it would fly off just from normal moving around if you aren't careful, it isn't going to stay on if someone hits it with a weapon. :smalltongue:

LibraryOgre
2009-09-18, 09:40 AM
In AD&D, even non-magical helmets provided immunity to critical hits. Needles to say, that made them quite powerful among fighter types, since they were the only ones that could use them.

Note: the above is based on my experience with Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale computer games. I have never actually played AD&D in tabletop version, so somebody who did might find these information totally untrue.

It is, but your caveat saves me from excoriating you about it. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, though, I rather like the idea that helms will protect you from critical hits. What I would probably rule is that they give you (depending on the helm) a +X to AC against critical confirmation. So, for example, if you have a 14 AC, and are wearing a helm which gave you a +4, the critical confirmation would have to roll against an 18 AC, not a 14... which is enough to save you once in a while.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-09-18, 09:52 AM
Oh, back in AD&D helms were important - I believe they gave you defense against Head Shots (since, IIRC, you could theoretically do Called Shots back then).

In any case, WoTC D&D has moved towards simplification in terms of combat; for example, shields now give a flat AC bonus instead of the original, more complicated, rules.

Folks need to know their roots :smallbiggrin:

Matthew
2009-09-18, 09:53 AM
Indeed, though in first edition AD&D not wearing a helmet had a special rule that 1 in every X attacks would be directed at that unarmoured location, with results that I forget just at the moment. :smallbiggrin:

[edit] Here we go:

Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, Dungeon Master's Guide (1979), p. 28.


Helmets

It is assumed that an appropriate type of head armouring will be added to the suit of armour in order to allow uniform protection of the wearer. Wearing of a "great helm" adds the appropriate weight and restricts vision to the front 60° only, but it gives the head AC 1. If a helmet is not worn, 1 blow in 6 will strike at the AC 10 head, unless the opponent is intelligent, in which case 1 blow in 2 will be aimed at the AC 10 head (d6, 1-3 = head blow).

As it goes, second edition neglected to include this rule, but, as Oracle Hunter mentions above, later introduced various "called shot" mechanics.

AxeD
2009-09-18, 10:00 AM
Player: "I remove my helmet, and place upon my head the Headband of Intellect."

DM: "Your mind swirls with newfound intellect, and suddenly you become aware at how un-intelligent it is to remove your helmet."

Player: "oh... right."

:smalltongue:

Nice :smallamused:

bosssmiley
2009-09-18, 10:03 AM
They did in OD&D (not wearing a helmet drops your AC by 1 to represent the enemy going for your delicious exposed face).
They did in AD&D (as cited above).
They did in the OA and Historic Reference piecemeal armour systems (helmets gave you a +1 AC, no questions asked).
They did in my own homebrew sectional armour system derived from WFRP.

Just because the current rule sets don't, it doesn't mean the idea hasn't been explored already.

Related: super quick hit locations for D&D (borrowed from hackslash (http://www.hackslash.net/?p=29))

1: look at the digits column of the damage you just rolled.
2: compare to this chart

0 - arm
1 - arm
2 - arm
3 - leg
4 - leg
5 - body
6 - body
7 - body
8 - body
9 - head
3: glee at the fact that substantial damage = hitting vital areas.

AxeD
2009-09-18, 10:15 AM
They did in OD&D (not wearing a helmet drops your AC by 1 to represent the enemy going for your delicious exposed face).
They did in AD&D (as cited above).
They did in the OA and Historic Reference piecemeal armour systems (helmets gave you a +1 AC, no questions asked).
They did in my own homebrew sectional armour system derived from WFRP.

Just because the current rule sets don't, it doesn't mean the idea hasn't been explored already.

Related: super quick hit locations for D&D (borrowed from hackslash (http://www.hackslash.net/?p=29))

1: look at the digits column of the damage you just rolled.
2: compare to this chart

0 - arm
1 - arm
2 - arm
3 - leg
4 - leg
5 - body
6 - body
7 - body
8 - body
9 - head
3: glee at the fact that substantial damage = hitting vital areas.

Cheers, I vaguely remember reading about this stuff somewhere before. I was just wondering how it impacted 3.5

Oracle_Hunter
2009-09-18, 10:21 AM
Cheers, I vaguely remember reading about this stuff somewhere before. I was just wondering how it impacted 3.5
It doesn't.

WotC D&D simplified combat for a reason. Now, instead of remembering how many attacks your shield has defended against this round, you just add +1 to your AC. And instead of wondering whether or not you have a helm, you take every attack against AC.

If you're wondering about enchantment, then it's the same reason you can't wear Leather Pants +1 - extra bookkeeping for dubious reasons.

TheThan
2009-09-18, 11:50 AM
It's just a convention (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HelmetsAreHardlyHeroic). People look better when you can see their heads properly.. Personally I'd say it's a good convention and might as well be stuck to.



I dunno, Darth Vader looks pretty good wearing his helmet.

Kylarra
2009-09-18, 11:57 AM
Helm of brilliance!

deuxhero
2009-09-18, 12:58 PM
Player: "I remove my helmet, and place upon my head the Headband of Intellect."

DM: "Your mind swirls with newfound intellect, and suddenly you become aware at how un-intelligent it is to remove your helmet."

Player: "oh... right."

:smalltongue:

Player: My helm is non-magical and has no logical reason to prevent me from wearing a headband. I put my helm on over my headband.

LibraryOgre
2009-09-18, 02:55 PM
Player: My helm is non-magical and has no logical reason to prevent me from wearing a headband. I put my helm on over my headband.

DM: The diamond in the headband's front keeps stabbing you in the forehead. Take -3 to Concentration.

Draz74
2009-09-18, 03:32 PM
DM: The diamond in the headband's front keeps stabbing you in the forehead. Take -3 to Concentration.

What kind of incompetent armorsmith hasn't modified his helmets to be adventurer-equipment-friendly yet, and why hasn't he been driven out of business by the armorsmiths who have?

ericgrau
2009-09-18, 03:43 PM
Take piece of cloth, wad up, place between diamond and forehead.

SoD
2009-09-18, 04:42 PM
What kind of incompetent armorsmith hasn't modified his helmets to be adventurer-equipment-friendly yet, and why hasn't he been driven out of business by the armorsmiths who have?

Because he's secretly the BBEG, and sells helmets like that to adventurers, so that when they do eventually face him (and they will. It's, like, in some prophecy or something) their spellcaster won't be able to make the concentration checks. Also, he's dominated all the other blacksmiths, and using that for blackmail. Or, alternatively, you could say he's dominated the other blacksmiths, depending on the campaign.

Kris Strife
2009-09-18, 05:05 PM
Why not wear it outside the helmet? Or have one with a special groove/slot made for the headband to go?

AslanCross
2009-09-18, 05:32 PM
Why not wear it outside the helmet? Or have one with a special groove/slot made for the headband to go?

Or make it a Helmet of Intellect.

Malfunctioned
2009-09-18, 05:39 PM
Helm of brilliance!

Is majorly pimpin'

Korivan
2009-09-18, 10:15 PM
In AD&D, even non-magical helmets provided immunity to critical hits. Needles to say, that made them quite powerful among fighter types, since they were the only ones that could use them.

Note: the above is based on my experience with Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale computer games. I have never actually played AD&D in tabletop version, so somebody who did might find these information totally untrue.

In Ad&d, helmets did nothing...those games gave alot of groups new ideas for them though...

Paulus
2009-09-19, 10:13 AM
Fools! Do you not see? The helm is all important! For only with it may you control Weather as a spell like ability twice a day!!!

..

kill da wabbit... kill da wabbit...


But seriously, making your helmet magical, in any way, will definitely increase it's importance. But over all it doesn't add AC to your armor, for simplicity's sake. I suppose you add a natural armor bonus or Deflection bonus to your helmet, but why when you can add a natural armor bonus to a head band and smile wickedly as your hair blocks sword blows better than any helmet?


For those who don't get the joke, It's from loony toons "What's Opera Doc?" here is and exceprt.

Elmer Fudd: I will do it with my spear and magic helmet!
Bugs Bunny: Your spear and magic helmet?
Elmer Fudd: Spear and magic helmet!
Bugs Bunny: Magic helmet?
Elmer Fudd: Magic helmet!
Bugs Bunny: [aside to audience, cynical] Magic helmet.
Elmer Fudd as Siegfried: Yes, magic helmet and I'll give you a sample.
[summons lightning that strikes near Bugs]
Bugs Bunny: Bye-yeee!
[quickly runs off]
Elmer Fudd as Siegfried: Dat was da wabbit!

mistformsquirrl
2009-09-19, 10:39 AM
It's just a convention (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HelmetsAreHardlyHeroic). People look better when you can see their heads properly, so the game doesn't penalize you for going about without your helmet. Personally I'd say it's a good convention and might as well be stuck to.

Agreed.

While from a simulationist standpoint it's true, going without a helmet is a bad idea - when it comes to heroic fiction, you really, really need to SEE the hero.

It's the same reason why in Warhammer 40k (for example) so many Marines go without helmets. Heck, Exalted 2nd edition even has a section explicitly explaining precisely this <,<

Obviously if you're DMing and you want a more simulationist approach you can come up with something on your own that makes it fit your preference; but as a default I like it how it is.

Talya
2009-09-19, 10:53 AM
Bah, ye've all been drinkin' bilgewater! A bicorn or tricorn hat always be lookin' mighty fine on any young pirate.

Drakyn
2009-09-19, 01:49 PM
Agreed.

While from a simulationist standpoint it's true, going without a helmet is a bad idea - when it comes to heroic fiction, you really, really need to SEE the hero.

It's the same reason why in Warhammer 40k (for example) so many Marines go without helmets. Heck, Exalted 2nd edition even has a section explicitly explaining precisely this <,<

Obviously if you're DMing and you want a more simulationist approach you can come up with something on your own that makes it fit your preference; but as a default I like it how it is.

If the helmet's suitably awesome, I think I'd rather see it than hero mcheroson's mug. I mean, nothing says awesome like a huge carved dragon instead of a face.

chiasaur11
2009-09-19, 02:31 PM
If the helmet's suitably awesome, I think I'd rather see it than hero mcheroson's mug. I mean, nothing says awesome like a huge carved dragon instead of a face.

Echoed.

A guy in full armor in a field of mooks less geared up looks like a total badass.

A guy not wearing a helmet in otherwise full armor looks like a moron.

Tengu_temp
2009-09-19, 02:34 PM
Skimpy chainmail bikini gives the same total AC as a normal chainmail due to Indecency bonus to AC. Therefore, the AC bonus a helmet gives is the same as the Indecency bonus to AC from not wearing a helmet.

Matthew
2009-09-19, 02:42 PM
Skimpy chainmail bikini gives the same total AC as a normal chainmail due to Indecency bonus to AC. Therefore, the AC bonus a helmet gives is the same as the Indecency bonus to AC from not wearing a helmet.

That only works if you have "Exotic Armour Proficiency (Bikini)" (see Bride of Portable Hole, p. 107). Men apparently benefit from ripped shirts and giant cod pieces. :smallbiggrin:

Spiryt
2009-09-19, 02:45 PM
Agreed.

While from a simulationist standpoint it's true, going without a helmet is a bad idea - when it comes to heroic fiction, you really, really need to SEE the hero.


Just assume some form of open helmet being worn, and you're done.

At least if seeing literally whole head isn't required.