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View Full Version : Firedancer (3.5 base class) [P.E.A.C.H.]



Tatsel_Ganav
2009-09-18, 11:05 AM
Flavor text to come later, for now it's just mechanics.

Hit Die: 1d8

Class Skills:
Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Craft (Con), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Martial Lore (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier


Firedancer
{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Maneuvers Known|
Maneuvers Readied|
Stances Known

1st|+0|+0|+2|+0|Speed Increase +5, Skirmish (+1d4, +0AC)|
6|
4|
1

2nd|+1|+0|+3|+0|Whirling Blades 1|
7|
4|
1

3rd|+2|+1|+3|+1|Skirmish (+1d4, +1AC)|
8|
5|
1

4th|+3|+1|+4|+1|Soulfire -5|
9|
5|
1

5th|+3|+1|+4|+1|Skirmish (+2d4, +1AC)|
10|
6|
2

6th|+4|+2|+5|+2|Speed Increase +10|
11|
6|
2

7th|+5|+2|+5|+2|Dervish Dance 1/day, Skirmish (+2d4, +2AC)|
12|
7|
2

8th|+6/+1|+2|+6|+2|Whirling Blades 2, Acrobatic Mastery|
13|
7|
2

9th|+6/+1|+3|+6|+3|Soulfire -10, Skirmish (+3d4, +2AC)|
14|
8|
3

10th|+7/+2|+3|+7|+3|Evasion|
15|
8|
3

11th|+8/+3|+3|+7|+3|Speed Increase +15, Dervish Dance 2/day, Skirmish (+3d4, +3AC)|
16|
9|
3

12th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+4|Divine Soulfire|
17|
9|
3

13th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+4|Skirmish (+4d4, +3AC)|
18|
10|
4

14th|+10/+5|+4|+9|+4|Whirling Blades 3, Soulfire -15|
19|
10|
4

15th|+11/+6/+1|+5|+9|+5|Dervish Dance 3/day, Skirmish (+4d4, +4AC)|
20|
11|
4

16th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5|Speed Increase +20|
21|
11|
4

17th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5|Skirmish (+5d4, +4AC)|
22|
12|
5

18th|+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+6|Improved Evasion|
23|
12|
5

19th|+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+6|Dervish Dance 4/day, Soulfire -20, Skirmish (+5d4, +5AC)|
24|
13|
5

20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+6|One Thousand Cuts, Whirling Blades 4|
25|
13|
5

[/table]
Armor and Weapon Proficiencies: As a Firedancer, you are proficient with simple weapons, martial melee weapons (including those that can be used as thrown weapons) and light armor, but not with shields.
Maneuvers: You begin your career with knowledge of six martial maneuvers. The disciplines available to you are Army of One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5710173), Dancing Leaf (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85614), Desert Wind, Oncoming Storm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54816), Setting Sun and Tiger Claw.
Once you know a maneuver, you must ready it before you can use it. A maneuver useable by Firedancers is considered an extraordinary ability unless otherwise noted in its description. Your maneuvers are not affected by spell resistance, and you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you initiate them.
XD You learn additional maneuvers at higher levels, as shown in the table above. You must meet a maneuvers prerequisites to learn it. See page 39 of Tome of Battle to determine the highest level maneuver you can learn.
XD Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered level after that, you can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one you already know. In effect, you lose the old maneuver in exhange for the new one. You can choose a new maneuver of any level you like, as long as you observe your restrictions on the highest-level maneuvers you know; you need not replace the old maneuver with a maneuver of the same level. You can swap out only a single maneuver at any given level.
Maneuvers Readied: You can ready four of your six maneuvers known at 1st level, and as you advance in level and learn more maneuvers, you are able to ready more, but you must still choose which maneuvers to ready. You ready maneuvers by practicing your dances for 5 minutes. The maneuvers you choose remain readied until you decide to practice dancing again and change them. You need not sleep or rest for any long period of time to ready your maneuvers, any time you spend 5 minutes dancing, you can change your readied maneuvers.
XD You begin an encounter with all your readied maneuvers unexpended, regardless of how many times you might have already used them since you chose them. When you initiate a maneuver, you expend it for the current encounter, so each of your maneuvers can be used once per encounter (unless you recover them, see below).
XD You can recover an expended maneuver by spending a full-round action doing nothing but dancing in place. Doing this does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If you complete your dancing, you can choose one expended maneuver to refresh. It is no available for use in a subsequent round.
Stances Known: You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to you. At later levels, you can choose additional stances. Unlike maneuvers, stances are not expended, and you do not have to ready them. All the stances you know are available to you at all times, and you can change the stance you are currently in as a swift action. A stance is an extraordinary ability unless otherwise stated in the stance description.
XD Unlike with maneuvers, you cannot learn a stance at higher levels in place of one you already know.
Speed Increase: Starting at 1st level, and increasing every five levels afterwards, you gain a +5 competence bonus to your land speed.
Skirmish: As the Scout class feature, except the bonus damage is fire damage, and the AC bonus is a deflection bonus.
Whirling Blades 1: At 2nd level you gain the Two-Weapon Fighting feat regardless of if you meet the prerequisites. In addition, choose a melee slashing weapon. If it is a one-handed weapon, you can use it in your off hand as a light weapon. If it is a light weapon, you also gain Weapon Focus with that weapon.
Whirling Blades 2: At 8th level, you gain the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat for free, regardless of if you meet the prerequisites.
Whirling Blades 3: At 14th level, you gain the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feat for free, regardless of if you meet the prerequisites.
Whirling Blades 4: At level 20 you can make as many attacks with your off-hand weapon as with your primary weapon, using the same base attack bonus. You still take the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons.
Soulfire: Starting at level 4 you gain the ability to ignore a portion of enemy fire resistance.
Dervish Dance: As the Dervish class feature.\, except that activating and maintaining this ability requires spending a swift action each round.
Acrobatic Mastery: At 8th level you can take 10 on balance, jump and tumble checks even when distracted or threatened.
Divine Soulfire: At 12th level, half of any fire damage you deal is divine fire damage, meaning resistance and immunity do not negate it.
One Thousand Cuts: At 20th level, once per day you can make an extra attack for every attack you make in the round, at the same attack bonus, with all the same modifiers. This effectively doubles the number of attacks you can make for one round each day - this ability cannot increase your number of attacks by a number larger than the number of attacks you could have made without using this ability.

Lorien077
2009-09-19, 01:43 AM
As best I can tell it looks good. My only question/ concern is about the manuevers/ stances/ etc. Did you base them off a particular class in ToB? If so which one? I don't know loads about ToB, hence the question. ^_^;;

Eloel
2009-09-19, 01:48 AM
You listed 3 disciplines that don't exist in ToB, without linking to them. How do you expect your class to be balanced against other classes, if noone knows what it can do?

Tatsel_Ganav
2009-09-19, 11:23 AM
Maneuver progression is almost just like the swordsage, and thank you ozgun - the disciplines are now linked.

Silverscale
2009-09-19, 12:31 PM
What was the insperation for this class? I have several friends who are fire spinners, with fire poi, fire staff, fire whip, etc and so at one point i created a feat that allowed a fighter to use those sorts of weapons.....
let me see if i can find it.....

Found it...

Fire Dancer: Gain "Fire Dancer as a class skill. Gain proficiency with Fire Poi, Fire Staff, Fire Whip, and Fire Meteor. Add 1/2 ranks in Fire Dancer as an Attack Bonus with appropriate weapons.

Here's a brief description of the above mentioned items for those who are not familiar with them.

Fire Poi: This is a par of chains roughly 2ft long. One end has a pair of loops to go over your fingers, the other has a knot of kevlar which is soaked in fuel and lite on fire. They are held one in each hand (two in each hand if you wanna get fancy) and spun around the body to create different patterns.

Fire Staff: This is basically a quaterstaff with each end wrapped in kevlar. Again the ends are lit and the staff spun around to create various patters or if tossed in the are properly, you can create a dazzling fire ball.

Fire Whip: This is a 8-10ft length of kevlar with a wooden handle at one end. the kevlar is braided the same way leather is braided into a whip (Yes this means the whole length gets lit on fire). With a succesfull crack of the whip, usually about 3 before you run out of fuel, you can create a big burst of fire.

Fire Meteor: This is a long length of chain, approx 15ft. Both end have large knots of kevlar on them. It can be used much like a pair of poi or to do body wraps or many other impressive tricks, including swinging a very large circle by holding one end about a foot away from the flaming knot of kevlar and swinging the rest of the length around (this particular trick takes a bit of strength).

I also created this item for the same high level Dragon Fire Adept character:
Torc of Firestriding: Add 1/2 you HD as an extra point of damage to your Fire Breath-weapon and weapons that deal fire damage. 3/day activate to become part of your own breath weapon and instantly teleport yourself and all your stuff to an unoccupied square within the area of effect of your breath weapon.

Tatsel_Ganav
2009-09-19, 02:25 PM
I like fire, and dancing warrior classes are cool. I thought about dancing warrior classes, realized they should be on fire, and couldn't find one. Thus, the Firedancer.

zagan
2009-09-19, 04:07 PM
I really like it, it's weel well made and seem balance against other TOB class, one thing could you clarify One thousand cut ?
Particulary the part of maximum number fo attack, at 20th level you have 15 BaB and can make 3 attack with each weapon for a total of six with one thousand cut you can make 12 max even if under haste or speed weapon property or maneauvre granting extra attack? Is that it ?

Lorien077
2009-09-19, 04:14 PM
Looking at swordsage I'd say its on par (and likely as balanced as swordsage is) but check your stances known, I think you have a blooper there.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-19, 04:35 PM
This is awesome, I'm interested in playing one.

DragoonWraith
2009-10-01, 12:44 AM
I'm actually building one of these, and I have a question: Does the class really not get Martial Lore as a Class Skill? Seems very odd for a Martial Adept class...

Tatsel_Ganav
2009-10-01, 12:51 AM
Good call. I'll change that. Why would you WANT Martial Lore though???

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-10-01, 03:22 AM
Good call. I'll change that. Why would you WANT Martial Lore though???

It's not that it's a critical skill, it's that pretty much every martial adept gets it as a class skill, just like Spellcraft comes standard on Vancian casters.

DragoonWraith
2009-10-01, 04:33 AM
I also find it somewhat disappointing that a clearly finesse character doesn't get Shadow Hand and therefore has difficulty getting Shadow Blade... personally, I'd switch Setting Sun with Shadow Hand basically for this reason alone. Child of Shadow works well, though, with the movement requirement.

onthetown
2009-10-01, 08:19 AM
The "Whirling Blades" set gave me the impression of Whirlwind Attack, so it was a little disappointing to see that it wasn't included in a class that seems to fit it perfectly, what with the dancing (though, I've always treated it as a pirouette, not sure if I'm the only one). I know the player could take it aside from their class specials, but it's one of those feats that has a lot building up to it (Combat Expertise - assuming you have the abilities - then Dodge, then Mobility, then Spring Attack, then finally Whirlwind attack... if you're not a human with the extra feat at the beginning, that's level 12 of working toward one feat). Maybe it could be included with the class specials or one of the Whirling Blades?

Edit - This said, I don't have a clue about how maneuvers work or if they might imitate Whirlwind Attack, so if there is one, please excuse my ignorance :smalleek:

Tatsel_Ganav
2009-10-01, 08:22 AM
Well, what I wanted to do was add Dual Strike to Whirling Blades II, and add Whirlwind Attack to Whirling Blades III. I'm not sure if that counts as overpowered, though. Granted, none of those are exactly spectacular feats, just cool ones... hm.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-10-01, 08:54 AM
2 stances at 1st level? I'd change that.

That said, this is a little to powerful. It has the Swordsages BaB, Maneuvers readied/known, and HD, but it has better skills, and more (and better) class abilities. Skirmish alone is worth the loss of some maneuvers known and readied at the very least, as that damage stacks up quickly, especially with Dervish Dance and A Thousand Cuts thrown into the mix. Especially Dervish Dance, A Thousand Cuts, and Burning Blade, for example...sheer madness.

Honestly, I think this would be done better as a ToB Dervish revision. Otherwise you're going to have to tone down Skirmish (perhaps capping at +3d6) and maybe down the maneuvers known/readied a bit...this just looks a little to good.

Tatsel_Ganav
2009-10-01, 09:00 AM
So, how is Dervish Dance powerful, though? It just lets you move around, during a full attack, right?

EDITS: Changed skirmish damage to d4, made the AC bonus a deflection bonus instead of a miscellaneous one, lowered stances known.

ALSO: Making Dervish Dance a swift action, so you can't use boosts with it.

and, in defense of the combo you mentioned, that is at level 20, 1/day. Any 20th level caster I've ever made can top that at least 2/day. I know that comparing a warrior to a caster is kind of... pointless, basically, but still. That is a lot of attacks, yes, but probably not a lot of accurate attacks.

drakir_nosslin
2009-10-01, 10:51 AM
I like it, though it would be cool to be able to choose what element to focus on at 1:st level. I'd play this, but ever better would be an electric dancer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEgbW1FxR78)!

Electric....

Tatsel_Ganav
2009-10-01, 11:24 AM
If you wanted to change your element you could. Just change desert wind too, that's "supposed" to be the main discipline for the class. There's no reason not to play an Electric Dancer.

Hm. I could have sworn I did a Martial Dervish a while back, can't find it now though. Lost to the board wiping habits of the Wizards mods... :smallfrown:

drakir_nosslin
2009-10-01, 11:33 AM
I see, thanks! Anyway, it looks like a good class that I'd play. Not too powerful either, though I compare everything to wizards :smallwink:

Tatsel_Ganav
2009-10-01, 11:38 AM
Aye, same here. Tome of Battle does a pretty good job of levelling the playing field, I think. Except for when casters get cheesy, but then, I've never actually met a DM that doesn't say "no" to the stuff that makes Wizards, Clerics and Druids so powerful.

Godskook
2009-10-01, 12:01 PM
I think having skirmish at all is kind of weird for what is essentially a swordsage recolor. The d4s versus d6s doesn't matter too much, I don't think. The soulfire is nice, making Desert wind more useful.

Tatsel_Ganav
2009-10-01, 02:55 PM
Well, the class basically varies between full attack and move-standard action attack. The disciplines it uses have a lot of boosts and counters, or additions to full attacks, and a lot of standard action strikes. So, one of the drawbacks of the class is that it's hard to use everything in it at once. that's why Dervish Dance is such a powerful ability, and why I took the ability use boosts and counters out of the dance.

A note: This class was designed for a specific character of mine, and I am used to the Ultimate classes, thus why it might be a bit over-powered.

Godskook
2009-10-01, 03:25 PM
I'm not familiar with Dervish, which is hampering my ability to assess this class, but what would happen if a character of this class got his hands on an item that granted hustle(psionic power, grants an additional move action) or pounce(Lion Totem Barbarian, L1), or several tiger claw abilities that give non-move action movement, or Shadow Blink(no pre-req, so only 1 feat, despite not being 'in house').

Aha, found it. Um, as written, do you realize that Dervish Dance is giving +10 to attack and damage rolls?

DragoonWraith
2009-10-01, 04:38 PM
The "Whirling Blades" set gave me the impression of Whirlwind Attack, so it was a little disappointing to see that it wasn't included in a class that seems to fit it perfectly, what with the dancing (though, I've always treated it as a pirouette, not sure if I'm the only one). I know the player could take it aside from their class specials, but it's one of those feats that has a lot building up to it (Combat Expertise - assuming you have the abilities - then Dodge, then Mobility, then Spring Attack, then finally Whirlwind attack... if you're not a human with the extra feat at the beginning, that's level 12 of working toward one feat). Maybe it could be included with the class specials or one of the Whirling Blades?

Edit - This said, I don't have a clue about how maneuvers work or if they might imitate Whirlwind Attack, so if there is one, please excuse my ignorance :smalleek:
Not the maneuvers, but the Dancing Dervish does, pretty much.

Tatsel_Ganav
2009-10-01, 05:54 PM
How does it give +10 to attack and damage? and, as for the extra actions... well, any suggestions?

Godskook
2009-10-01, 06:11 PM
How does it give +10 to attack and damage? and, as for the extra actions... well, any suggestions?

You say:

"As the Dervish class feature.\, except that activating and maintaining this ability requires spending a swift action each round."

The class feature grants +1 to attack and damage rolls at first level, and an additional +1 at each odd level thereafter. Over 20 levels, that's +10.

DragoonWraith
2009-10-01, 06:18 PM
It gives +1 to attack and damage if you're using a slashing weapon (which you have to use in order to use the dervish anyway), +1 additional attack and damage on every odd level after you get it. Since you get it at 7, that's +1 at 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, and 19 - which is +7, as far as I can tell, not +10. Still, it's something, you should probably say that the damage only goes up when you gain additional daily uses of it.

Godskook
2009-10-01, 06:35 PM
It gives +1 to attack and damage if you're using a slashing weapon (which you have to use in order to use the dervish anyway), +1 additional attack and damage on every odd level after you get it. Since you get it at 7, that's +1 at 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, and 19 - which is +7, as far as I can tell, not +10. Still, it's something, you should probably say that the damage only goes up when you gain additional daily uses of it.

No, as worded, it starts at first level, not 7th, despite not getting access till 7th level. The wording is similar in complete warrior to how damage dice are calculated in spells.

Tatsel_Ganav
2009-10-01, 08:44 PM
Holy crap! I didn't know Dervish Dance did that! Okay, I'm changing that ability in just a moment...

EDIT: I'm changing that ability when I find Complete Warrior.

DragoonWraith
2009-10-01, 08:52 PM
Hmm, yes, I suppose you're right. Some modifications to the ability will have to be included to account for the fact that you don't gain it at 1st level and you don't gain it every other level.

Point: the Dervish gains the dancing dervish up to 5/day over the course of ten levels starting at 6, and gets A Thousand Cuts at 15. The Firedancer gains the dancing dervish up to 4/day over the course of twelve levels starting at 7, and gains A Thousand Cuts at 20. Obviously, the Firedancer gets a lot of other stuff, which is important, but I figure this is worth mentioning.

The other issue is that the rules for a dervish are really unclear on what you're allowed to do during a dancing dervish. If I read this right, you're giving up the opportunity to Hide, Move Silently, Search, or take any action that requires concentration, in order to gain the ability to move during a full-round action. The question is - does this exclude maneuvers? Some, certainly, like Diamond Mind maneuvers, but the Firedancer doesn't get any of those.

I guess the question is whether a Barbarian can use Maneuvers during a Rage, since Dancing Dervish is similar to Rage.

DragoonWraith
2009-10-05, 02:31 AM
More commentary:
Boosts are pretty important to Desert Wind, the supposedly "main" school here. Oncoming Storm's also got some great ones. But without being able to use them with Dancing Dervish, you have to avoid taking and readying them.

I'd say make activating the extra attack and damage from dancing dervish a Swift action, but enable people to move about attacking without that damage but using a boost. Burning Brand, Flurry of Blades, etc. would be really cool, and I don't think overpowering.

Violet Octopus
2009-10-05, 02:57 AM
The other issue is that the rules for a dervish are really unclear on what you're allowed to do during a dancing dervish. If I read this right, you're giving up the opportunity to Hide, Move Silently, Search, or take any action that requires concentration, in order to gain the ability to move during a full-round action. The question is - does this exclude maneuvers? Some, certainly, like Diamond Mind maneuvers, but the Firedancer doesn't get any of those.

I thought that "take any action that requires concentration" was intended to mean actions that invoke attacks of opportunity because they require mental effort/distraction. So, spellcasting, manifesting, and some skill uses. Concentration checks for Diamond Mind maneuvers wouldn't seem to fall under this.

DragoonWraith
2009-10-05, 03:26 AM
Oh, and Whirling Blades 4 doesn't do anything beyond Greater Two-Weapon Fighting unless you go Epic, because your BAB only gets to +15/+10/+5, no fourth attack. Which I guess is something, but you might as well just say you get Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting.

LunarWolfPrime
2009-12-11, 09:15 PM
please clarify this.

Soulfire: Starting at level 4 you gain the ability to ignore a portion of enemy fire resistance.

How much 1/2, 1/4 , etc.?

If even with just the 15 BAB with a dual wield that is still 6 attacks, if you do that.

But the idea of dropping that for the NO PEN to TWFing is a good idea to.

Narmy
2009-12-11, 10:03 PM
Uhm, I really do have to ask, what does PEACH mean in the title?

DragoonWraith
2009-12-11, 10:22 PM
Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly

Narmy
2009-12-11, 10:37 PM
Oh... I've gotta add that to my topics then. >.>

Tatsel_Ganav
2009-12-11, 11:36 PM
soulfire, the amount it drops enemy resistance is listed in the table. goes from -5 to -20 over the course of the class.

Narmy
2009-12-11, 11:42 PM
On second thought, I won't be able to give you a critique. I apologize, I've not read the Tomb of Battle, and those maneuvers and things are already confounding my brain. I fail, I know.

Sorry.

Seems like EVERYONE has read that book but me, but oddly enough, I never even knew it existed until I came to this forum. >.>

absolmorph
2009-12-11, 11:58 PM
On second thought, I won't be able to give you a critique. I apologize, I've not read the Tomb of Battle, and those maneuvers and things are already confounding my brain. I fail, I know.

Sorry.

Seems like EVERYONE has read that book but me, but oddly enough, I never even knew it existed until I came to this forum. >.>
I haven't read it, either.
Which is kinda irritating me, 'cause it looks like there's some really awesome stuff in there.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-12, 12:22 AM
There absolutely is. It's easily among the best books published for 3.5. Notable as just about the only book to appreciably improve melee. Though lots of books add power creep to melee that can improve them, that involves combing through books for feats that combine in the perfect way to make a killing machine. With ToB, you can literally just pick whatever sounds cool and have at it.