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Thrawn183
2009-09-18, 11:12 AM
Ok, so there have been a lot of threads out there about monsters that are way more challenging than their CR would indicate, such as the monstrous crab or outsiders that cast as a cleric of higher level than their CR.

But what about monsters that are totally undeserving of their CR? As an example, I give you the humble Aboleth Mage. It takes the standard aboleth and makes it a CR 17. Yes a CR 17 with a whole 10 levels of wizard casting ability.

bosssmiley
2009-09-18, 11:36 AM
Ogre Mage. CR8, for an Ogre with some SLAs? *meh*

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-18, 12:36 PM
Dragons, when not used as a Primary caster. I've seen too many DMs confounded when their dragon is turned into street pizza by a single melee character.

Kylarra
2009-09-18, 12:38 PM
Poor little Tarrasque is Over-CR'd against anything but the stereotyped party.

woodenbandman
2009-09-18, 12:57 PM
Over CR'd huh? Well how about the Pit Fiend? Shoot, it doesn't even have 20th level cleric casting. And its claws are only a +30 to-hit. Planetar, that's a CR 20 creature, if only for the 17th level cleric spellcasting which makes everything better.

EDIT: and the book calls it a CR 16. I wonder if a Planetar would defeat a pit fiend in one on one.

Eldariel
2009-09-18, 01:12 PM
Let's try...Ogres! These suckers are apparently a challenge to a level 1 party and yet a single Color Spray or Sleep has a very high chance of knocking them and their silly +1 Will-save senseless. Hell, toss 2 of them and the party still needs nothing but their Wizard to deal with them (and that's apparently CR 5).

Or the Purple Worm; it's cold to a single Hold Monster and even if that isn't available, something as simple as Glitterdust can take the sting out of its attacks; it doesn't exactly have quantity so 50% miss chance screws it over something royal. Basically, any dumb big brawler. They can't really even be vindicated by playing them in a cunning manner (though Worm snatching someone and escaping underground helps) since they tend to lack the mental capacity for cunning.

CockroachTeaParty
2009-09-18, 02:15 PM
In general, I find the big bruisers to be somewhat of a paradox. Yes, typically they can be owned by one or two spells. But if you send them against a significantly lower-level party than their CR would suggest, there's a chance they'll get a hit in, and suddenly somebody's taken 50+ damage from a single hit and is dead or worse.

I once sent five advanced gargantuan Remorhaz against a party who had routinely made a mockery out of big dumb low Will save bruisers, and they came very close to death, simply because they couldn't deal with the numbers. If anything helps big stupid monsters, its having some friends to back them up. Optimize all you want, but it's going to take time to kill 5+ monsters with 100's of hp, and during that time the ones you've been forced to ignore are going to cause some trouble.

Elfin
2009-09-18, 02:24 PM
Ogre Mage. CR8, for an Ogre with some SLAs? *meh*

Very true.

ericgrau
2009-09-18, 02:54 PM
Ogre Mage. CR8, for an Ogre with some SLAs? *meh*
Invisibility at will. Endless flight with a maneuverability that your wizard has to spend a round to get (overland flight can't hover). And a bow to go with it, in addition to the melee option. Higher HP, higher damage. Easy escape unless dumb enough to fight out in the open. Unlimited shape change disguises. If the PCs aren't wasting a round or two just trying to counter the ogre mage's tactics, you're playing him way below his int (and his MM tactics description for that matter).

Eldariel
2009-09-18, 03:02 PM
Invisibility at will. Endless flight with a maneuverability that your wizard has to spend a round to get (overland flight can't hover). And a bow to go with it, in addition to the melee option. Higher HP, higher damage. Easy escape unless dumb enough to fight out in the open. Unlimited shape change disguises. If the PCs aren't wasting a round or two just trying to counter the ogre mage's tactics, you're playing him way below his int (and his MM tactics description for that matter).

The principal issue is their lack of HP. Once the Invisibility is negated (say, by See Invisibility or Invisibility Purge or Glitterdust or some such), he'll be dying really fast.

They simply have too low HD & AC for their level, and given that their offense is practically nil (their Bow isn't even Composite!), as a combat encounter they really have no chance of being viable; Invisibility at Will still requires activation and ends when attacking.


As social movers, they could be rather efficient thanks to Change Shape, but they lack the necessary spells/skills to go all the way in that way too.

ericgrau
2009-09-18, 03:11 PM
At will invisibility can be kept on all day, before the encounter begins. Glitterdust must be aimed, and see invisibility often isn't prepared. Nor do they know to use it anyway until after the ogre reveals himself. More likely it is broken with a free attack or full attack... perhaps in the air with a bow... in an enclosed dungeon so the overland flight wizard can't do much. The PCs are likewise forced to use range or spend a round casting fly. Once the ogre gets hurt he uses gaseous form to get under a door or crack and shapechanges to get a disguise or downs a potion or escapes or w/e. Assuming he didn't already shapechange and run to fool the PCs earlier. Using SLA's and avoiding combat if possible is the whole point; that's exactly what the MM says to do.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-18, 03:14 PM
Invisibility at will. Endless flight with a maneuverability that your wizard has to spend a round to get (overland flight can't hover). And a bow to go with it, in addition to the melee option. Higher HP, higher damage. Easy escape unless dumb enough to fight out in the open. Unlimited shape change disguises. If the PCs aren't wasting a round or two just trying to counter the ogre mage's tactics, you're playing him way below his int (and his MM tactics description for that matter).

His feats make up for it. Combat Expertise? When you have Invisibility at will? Imp Init makes sense. It would help if he had 1 more HD, or had Quicken SLA without needing to meet the requirements.

Eldariel
2009-09-18, 03:20 PM
At will invisibility can be kept on all day, before the encounter begins. Glitterdust must be aimed, and see invisibility often isn't prepared. Nor do they know to use it anyway until after the ogre reveals himself. More likely it is broken with a free full attack... perhaps in the air with a bow... in an enclosed dungeon so the overland flight wizard can't do much. The PCs are likewise forced to use range or spend a round casting fly. Once the ogre gets hurt he uses gaseous form to get under a door or crack and shapechanges to get a disguise or downs a potion or escapes or w/e. Assuming he didn't already shapechange and run to fool the PCs earlier. Using SLA's and avoiding combat if possible is the whole point; that's exactly what the MM says to do.

This is all true, but fact is that due to the way actions are constructed, he'll be visible for a PCs' turn after the turn he shoots his volley. As his ranged attacks are sad (honestly, +2? Even at +2 vs. flat-footed, he still doesn't hit anything) and closing down to melee is a bad idea, his attacks are really trivial leaving him with that one Cone of Cold and not much else in terms of offense.

At this point, he eats the Glitterdust and better be close enough to a wall to Gaseous Form the hell out of there...if the party Fighter didn't already skewer him. Staying undetected is all fine, but as an encounter, he's hardly threatening to the PCs. Sure, if the PCs have to KILL him, it becomes much more difficult (though they'll know to prepare See Invisibilities at that point), but as a combat encounter, he isn't in any ways threatening to a level 8 party since his offense is inexistent. They're basically just different kinds of "turtles".

ericgrau
2009-09-18, 03:21 PM
His feats make up for it. Combat Expertise? When you have Invisibility at will? Imp Init makes sense. It would help if he had 1 more HD, or had Quicken SLA without needing to meet the requirements.

CE does seem semi-odd. Maybe it's to make sure he survives a full round or two after breaking invisibility, so he can escape. But he doesn't have the AB to support such a tactic. Bear in mind while he likely enters combat invisible, he'll break invisibility with his first attack and it takes a standard action to put it up again.

Eldariel
2009-09-18, 03:23 PM
CE does seem semi-odd. Maybe it's to make sure he survives a full round or two after breaking invisibility, so he can escape. Bear in mind while he likely enters combat invisible, he'll break invisibility with his first attack and it takes a standard action to put it up again.

Indeed, which is why he can never go invisible again the turn he attacks; giving the PCs a chance to act means they can Glitterdust him or w/e. Combat Expertise...sure, even with full CE, his AC is 21. At CR8. Just...not gonna cut it. It doesn't just matter. All Combat Expertise does is ensure that he doesn't deal damage.

ericgrau
2009-09-18, 03:30 PM
As for tactics above: Bow (or invisibility and melee) lets him pick the low AC target. But actually he's more likely to open with a 9d6 cone of cold (31.5 avg damage to multiple targets). In melee he has combat expertise for safety. Not to mention, for the 3rd time, his description says to use physical combat only when necessary. Invisibility, cone of cold, win initiative, finish off a low HP/AC PC and run after the PCs only get 1 round to respond is one brutal option, for example. Or run in round 1 before any significant response, invis, and come back with another surprise attack. Or shapechanged trickery, getting involved with the plot. Following the PCs until they burn some spells or get hurt, etc.

Bear in mind he's not supposed to be that hard for a level 8 party (just a typical challenge), and a level 6 wizard with 2+dex reflex save and low HP risks going down from the DC 18 cone of cold alone.

Eldariel
2009-09-18, 03:40 PM
Indeed, as I said, Cone of Cold is his only real attack option. And even there, the save DC is quite low for the level meaning there's a decent chance of it doing ~15 points of damage.

Did you check his To Hit with the bow? It's +2. Even if he manages to catch the PCs by surprise again AND gets the shot off, it's still at +4 vs. flat-footed AC which I'd assume is a bare minimum of 14 (Mage Armor) so at best everything going right for him it's a 50/50 chance for him to hit. And even then it's only average 7 points of damage.


And PCs honestly can deal 40 points of damage in a single turn. Hell, if the Wizard happens to have Scorching Ray around, that alone can add up to 28 points of damage at CL 7 with a trivially easy Touch AC.

ericgrau
2009-09-18, 03:47 PM
The wizard who fell unconcious in the surprise round? And even a 6th level rogue has around a 50:50 chance of making that save. And scorching ray hits 8d6 at 7th level, when the fight isn't supposed to be all that hard anyway.

Like I said, maybe it's easy for an 8th-ish level party that blows "1/4 of its resources" on a high level spell, but that's what CR 8 means.

Gorbash
2009-09-18, 03:48 PM
But actually he's more likely to open with a 9d6 cone of cold (31.5 avg damage to multiple targets)

...on a failed save. Against DC 18. Can't really call that challenging even at lvl 5, when Greater Resistance comes into play.


Or run in round 1 before any significant response

In one round he'll be dead, he only has 37 hp for christ's sake. :smallwink:

ericgrau
2009-09-18, 03:52 PM
You should look at a 5th-6th level party's saving throw modifiers. Their chance of failure is high. If using splatbooks, enemy CR or stats should be upped to match.

See above for survivability issues.

Fiery Diamond
2009-09-18, 03:52 PM
I am a little confused. Why would glitterdust work? It might blind him, sure, but it isn't going to keep him from going invisible. As soon as he activates his invisibility, the sparkles on him go caput. If he's invisible and hit with glitterdust - hey, now we know where he is! But hitting something with glitterdust before they go invisible (as long as they don't get blinded) doesn't do anything.

ericgrau
2009-09-18, 03:54 PM
I dunno about that, but it's moot. He comes in invisible before the PCs act and leaves gaseous formed. If glitterdusted anyway he can wait out the duration before returning. The downside is the PCs may heal up in 5+ rounds, but with 1 less spell slot and fewer heals for next time.

Deepblue706
2009-09-18, 03:57 PM
I think many of the monsters that appear weak for their CR tend to do well under circumstances where their CR accumulates with other monsters to meet for a slightly higher-level challenge (Edit: I mean to accomodate a higher level party, not simply making the CR higher) - specifically, other monsters with different strengths and weaknesses so that choosing to nullify one will likely do nothing for the other. Or, merely others alike itself as a buffer, or a distraction altogether.

Although I think the Ogre Mage is a fair-enough CR 8 challenge, I think he and 3 Ogre buddies will likely make for a better encounter than say, most lone CR 9 creatures, if they play to their tactics. At the moment, I can only think of Dragons of the CR to be an exception.

ericgrau
2009-09-18, 03:58 PM
Good point, who says the ogre mage can only prep invisibility on himself?

Starscream
2009-09-18, 04:11 PM
Vampires. Yeah, they have lots of impressive powers, but they also have the most incredibly crippling weaknesses of any monster.

The biggest one is holy symbols. According to SRD "A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action."

Get that? Just wave a holy symbol at them. You don't need to spend a turn attempt. You don't need to make a roll. The vampire doesn't get a save. You don't even need to worship or believe in the god in question. All you need is a holy symbol (on sale for 1GP) and the ability to perform standard actions. A 1st level commoner can do it just as well as a 20th level cleric. And they can both do it to Strahd von Zarovich.

That means that no party that is even slightly prepared will have trouble with them. Get some hirelings, give them a holy symbol each, and have them hold the thing at bay while you dispatch it.

Or better yet, get some golems or animated skeletons to do it. Imprison the vampire forever by surrounding him with skeletons who have orders to do nothing but show him the symbols every round. He won't be able to leave or attack them. Even turning into a cloud won't help if you suspend a skeleton from the ceiling.

Turn it into a tourist attraction. For five GP you get three cloves of garlic to throw at him. Land one in his mouth and get a free "Sparkle this." t-shirt.

Unless he has spells. Then he can probably find a way out of it. But even then you are talking a spellcaster who gave up 8 caster levels for a template that gave them some truly awful weaknesses.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-18, 04:13 PM
Core only.

Level 8 Wizard save of +4-5 before items/spells. HP of 37.5 or 45.5. AC (not flat footed, since invis broken by spell) AC 13-14 before armor or spells. See Mage Armor and Protection From Arrows.

Chance of dropping in surprise round given Ogre rolling average on damage? 0%.

Level 8 Rogue save of +11-12 before items. HP of 46.5 before items. AC of 18 min.

Level 8 Cleric save of probably fail. HP of 55.5 or maybe only 47.5. AC of 18 or more.

Nope. Not seeing anyone drop in the surprise round at all.

Seeing lots of people with good init modifiers rolling against a CR 8 enemy who dies to 37 damage.

And once again, Cone of Cold done, even if Ogre Mage escapes, they heal up with a wand, and then what? He can never do decent damage again. His attack against anyone is a whole +4 vs AC 14 at the least for 2d6 damage? Ouch, look at those HP numbers again, the ones that they will have when he comes back for the second time to do 3.5 average damage against a flat footed Wizard.

Escape? Maybe. Be a threat later that day at all? No.

Eldariel
2009-09-18, 04:18 PM
The wizard who fell unconcious in the surprise round? And even a 6th level rogue has around a 50:50 chance of making that save. And scorching ray hits 8d6 at 7th level, when the fight isn't supposed to be all that hard anyway.

Like I said, maybe it's easy for an 8th-ish level party that blows "1/4 of its resources" on a high level spell, but that's what CR 8 means.

I claim a level 8 party needs only one-two attacks and low-level spells (e.g. Scorching Ray & Magic Missile); practically no resources outside charges from the Wand of Cure Light Wounds to kill an Ogre Mage. And again, the Gaseous Form escape is ONLY possible if circumstances favor the Ogre Mage by the fight being in some enclosed space with lots of cracks in walls, and walls near enough to go through with that 10' fly of Gaseous Form (in other words, +1 to the CR of the encounter).

I'm going to claim an NPC level 8 Human Wizard is going to be MUCH more formidable a challenge than an Ogre Mage even though by the CR system they should be the same; the NPC Wizard lacks Invisibility at will, true, but he DOES know Greater Invisibility which removes the need for multiple castings. Other than that, he replicates all the Ogre Mage's tricks better (with much more gas for offensive casting if going that road), the same HP (assuming 14 starting Con from Elite Array), better AC (with magical buffs; e.g. Alter Self into Trogdolyte, which is a 10 min./level spell), etc.

ericgrau
2009-09-18, 04:30 PM
As I said, a level 8 party should be at little risk against a CR 8 encounter. It should (and does) only cause them to burn some resources. For a CR 8 fight to be dangerous, try a level 6 party. For a chance of TPK, try 4 levels lower, i.e. a level 4 party. And usually the monsters pick the dungeon, not the PCs. Most have doors anyway.

As for vampires, they do seem like all or nothing. They're easy if prepared, but a nuisance the first time you fight one.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-18, 04:35 PM
As I said, a level 8 party should be at little risk against a CR 8 encounter. It should (and does) only cause them to burn some resources. For a CR 8 fight to be dangerous, try a level 6 party. For a chance of TPK, try 4 levels lower, i.e. a level 4 party.

Except the entire and complete point is that literally every single other CR monster that is not an animal, and also, every CR 7 Monster that isn't an Animal, is going to expend more resources than an Ogre Mage, because they have ABs that actually hit, and are real threats.

ericgrau
2009-09-18, 04:37 PM
That would be quite contradictory to the openly stated purpose of the CR system if it were so. Storm Giant, CR 8, 20 damage per hit and a hit maybe every other round vs. a decent AC. High HP for a longer fight, but still droppable in short order since all the PCs stay healthy. Each PC does similar damage to it. Little risk to a level 8 party; anyone can heal even if they do get hit. No special ability to put all the PCs at low HP in round 1, for example. Likewise more trouble against a level 6 party.

Eldariel
2009-09-18, 04:41 PM
That would be quite contradictory to the openly stated purpose of the CR system if it were so.

Hence why it's over-CRd.

AslanCross
2009-09-18, 04:49 PM
Ogre Mage. CR8, for an Ogre with some SLAs? *meh*

Victim of adaptation decay.

Wizards made a slightly more cohesive CR 5 Ogre Mage with 6 HD. It didn't have Charm Person and Sleep, and its invisibility and darkness were thrown out along with regeneration. It was left with lightning bolt (instead of Cone of Cold), 3/day invisibility, and 1/day swift invisibility. It retained flight, had regen replaced with fast healing, and got 2d6 Sneak Attack.

The 4E Oni Lurker took on the same role.

I think the Giant type in general is over CR'd. They're mostly just batteries of HP and big damage, but by the time the PCs are strong enough to go against them, they've got all the tools (assuming a Wizard and Cleric in the party) to trounce them. Trolls might be the only Giants who can actually be scary in CR-appropriate encounters.

Saph
2009-09-18, 06:09 PM
I've got to back ericgrau up on this one. Our Level 6 party ran into an Ogre Mage once, and the ensuing fight was pretty nasty. Getting knocked down to less than half HP before you even get to take a turn isn't fun. It's probably over-CRed, but permanent invisibility and flight plus a spell that can blast the entire party at once is nothing to laugh at . . . especially since it can hang around invisibly for basically as long as it likes, watching you, before picking its time to strike.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-18, 06:35 PM
I've got to back ericgrau up on this one. Our Level 6 party ran into an Ogre Mage once, and the ensuing fight was pretty nasty. Getting knocked down to less than half HP before you even get to take a turn isn't fun. It's probably over-CRed, but permanent invisibility and flight plus a spell that can blast the entire party at once is nothing to laugh at . . . especially since it can hang around invisibly for basically as long as it likes, watching you, before picking its time to strike.

Not really. You get an opposed listen check every round to detect it, even as a level 6 party you are rolling something like +9-15 vs +0 MS.

Even with Range penalties, you pretty much hear that something is around, and at that point, you close all the doors and start actively checking.

This probably sets it up for a gaseous form escape a little bit, but it certainly can't pick it's time to strike in any meaningful way.

Saph
2009-09-18, 06:37 PM
It flies with magical Good maneuverability, which means no wings. What are you going to be listening for?

Kelpstrand
2009-09-18, 06:50 PM
It flies with magical Good maneuverability, which means no wings. What are you going to be listening for?

It's breathing? The Wind? Does it matter? The rules stipulate MS, they do not stipulate that creatures that are flying make no noise. MS rules apply just as much to flying Ogre Mages as to walking people.

Eldariel
2009-09-18, 06:50 PM
That's heavily DM rule area; without wings, hearing the movement is obviously harder but he's still displacing air as he moves so a sound is generated. Nevertheless, the bigger thing is Spot.

Spotting the presence of an active, invisible creature is DC 20, meaning it's going to happen quite soon as long as the party isn't sitting still (thus allowing the Ogre Mage to sit still too, which keeps it inactive and thus keeps the DC at 40).

Kelpstrand
2009-09-18, 06:57 PM
Spotting the presence of an active, invisible creature is DC 20, meaning it's going to happen quite soon as long as the party isn't sitting still (thus allowing the Ogre Mage to sit still too, which keeps it inactive and thus keeps the DC at 40).

Actually, inactive is only DC 30, still well within the range of possibility given a few rounds.

DC 40 is only for completely immobile creatures that do not need to breathe or move at all.

The Glyphstone
2009-09-18, 07:04 PM
It's DC40 to know what square(s) he is in - DC20 to spot the active, invisible creature, +20 to localize him down to a certain area. It'd be DC30/50 if he was just standing and watching without moving, DC40/60 for a immobile creature that doesn't need to breathe or move.

Spiryt
2009-09-18, 07:09 PM
Actually, inactive is only DC 30, still well within the range of possibility given a few rounds.

DC 40 is only for completely immobile creatures that do not need to breathe or move at all.

Where is the part about breathing? I only see "completely immobile" in SRD, and I don't think it involves no breathing...

Maybe in for example cold air, then it's fair, but I don't want to know how someone wants to notice breathing in normal conditions.

And anyway, the biggest disatvantage of this noticing the invisble creature with spot is range - only 30 feet is really small distance, even smallest dungeon will have corridors times longer than that.

Listening seem like a lot better idea. It seems that the Ogre Mage doesn't even have ranks in Move Silently.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-18, 07:26 PM
Where is the part about breathing? I only see "completely immobile" in SRD, and I don't think it involves no breathing...

Maybe in for example cold air, then it's fair, but I don't want to know how someone wants to notice breathing in normal conditions.

And anyway, the biggest disatvantage of this noticing the invisble creature with spot is range - only 30 feet is really small distance, even smallest dungeon will have corridors times longer than that.

Listening seem like a lot better idea. It seems that the Ogre Mage doesn't even have ranks in Move Silently.

The difference is that creatures already hold still and are hard to notice, getting a DC 30 check, so why would a creature that is holding still trying hard not to be noticed not be completely immobile unless they counted things like breathing and involuntary movements? When you are trying to not be noticed do you move parts of your body?

Not to mention compare it with the rest of the statement, inanimate objects and unliving creatures. IE things that have no general vibrations, involuntary movements and breathing.

As for listen, yeah, I already pointed that out. The argument was made that Ogre Mage possess the Su ability: "automatically never make any noise of any kind"

I disagree, but spot was just another issue.

Spiryt
2009-09-18, 07:46 PM
The difference is that creatures already hold still and are hard to notice, getting a DC 30 check, so why would a creature that is holding still trying hard not to be noticed not be completely immobile unless they counted things like breathing and involuntary movements?

I can't find the exact meaning of "hold still" in dictionary, but I was under impresion, that it means "to stop", so don't change your position.

While "completely immobile" would mean no gestures, no turning your head around. Total freeze, but I would allow some slow breaths just for health. :smallwink:


When nyou are trying to not be noticed do you move parts of your body?


Yes, but when I was trying not to be noticed in hide and seek as a child, I was hiding in some bushes where breathing really didn't matter, I couldn't be invisible. :smallamused:

The problem with it is that spoting any movement of creature that cannot be seen anyhow is anyway somehow supernatural, so it's hard to take it logically.

EDIT : Perhaps it's about results of movement - some vapors caused by breathing, moving the tiny gravel under feet, the dust falling down weirdly near the invisible creature.

Cedrass
2009-09-18, 07:54 PM
Am I the only one thinking the Hydra is way under-CRed?

My group and I met one, it only had +1 CR than our characters had levels and damne did it kick the living hell out of us... 3d6x6? Are you kidding me!? No breathe? Ok well it'll be 6 times 1d10+3, still hurts!

Oslecamo
2009-09-18, 08:04 PM
Guys, you're doing it all wrong with the ogre magi. He's a leader monster.

He won't use his invisibility on himself only. He'll have a bunch of minions wich he'll also turn invisible (normal ogres for the lulz). Then he will hide traps inside his darkness spells.

He only dies horribly if you play him like a big dumb bruiser, wich he isn't in any way.

EDIT: for the matter, the designers expect you to use the monster abilities to the full, not just throw the monster against the party and try to full attack every turn.

The purple worm, for example, is that much scary when it bursts out of the ground whitout any warning, instantly swallowing a character, and then going back underground with something like spring attack. Hold monster? sorry, no line of sight wizard.

jiriku
2009-09-18, 09:04 PM
I rarely find MM creatures to be over-CR'd, although I'll admit I rarely use them without advancing them. My big CR complaint is NPC ADVENTURERS! A regular +0 LA character (human, goblin, kobold, orc, elf, whatever) with class levels is almost always a poor match for a party of its CR, and the problem gets worse at higher levels when the disparity in gear becomes more obvious. Further, even with their pitiful gear, NPCs have far too much treasure, forcing me to use several other encounters with monsters that have no treasure in order to maintain balance. Yuck.

Volkov
2009-09-18, 09:23 PM
I once used 5 epic level hand book pseudonatural paragon 96 hit dice tarrasques, they almost murdered a level 35 party, they were coming in far too fast for the party to do much of anything during the surprise round. Only a last second teleportation saved them from being killed.

Volkov
2009-09-18, 09:26 PM
I also onced used a max hit dice Twelve headed Half Blue Dragon Cyro-Pyro Hydra of legend, that was impervious to acid, could vomit forth acid, and could reattach limbs. He was a brutally monstrous challenge for a level 17 party and almost wiped out a level 15 party entirely.

Korivan
2009-09-18, 09:52 PM
If I'm not mistaken, in the monster manuel, camels are a CR of 1, orcs are what? 1/3, 1/2? An orcs are what, stronger then humans right? Well, I've never heard of someone being killed by a camel....

Jergmo
2009-09-18, 09:52 PM
...Where is this Advanced dealybob? Is it in Epic rules?

Also, I think they were thinking more of the Ogre Magi's regeneration and spell resistance than its attacks for CR, and indeed, you've gotta remember that if you put an equal CR monster of a party's level, that's supposed to consume 1/4 of their daily resources. My level 4 rogue, backed up by a level 5 NPC fighter took down an Ogre Mage that was the leader of a goblinoid army attacking a town. Man, that was crazy. We managed to do it, but it was difficult. Ended up having to burn its decapitated head in the blacksmith's forge to kill it. :smallamused:

Jergmo
2009-09-18, 09:53 PM
If I'm not mistaken, in the monster manuel, camels are a CR of 1, orcs are what? 1/3, 1/2? An orcs are what, stronger then humans right? Well, I've never heard of someone being killed by a camel....

Perhaps, but that's because we don't have any camels here except in zoos. Think of all the stories where you've heard of horses trampling and killing people when they got riled up.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-18, 09:59 PM
I can't find the exact meaning of "hold still" in dictionary, but I was under impresion, that it means "to stop", so don't change your position.

While "completely immobile" would mean no gestures, no turning your head around. Total freeze, but I would allow some slow breaths just for health. :smallwink:


Yes, but when I was trying not to be noticed in hide and seek as a child, I was hiding in some bushes where breathing really didn't matter, I couldn't be invisible. :smallamused:

The problem with it is that spoting any movement of creature that cannot be seen anyhow is anyway somehow supernatural, so it's hard to take it logically.

EDIT : Perhaps it's about results of movement - some vapors caused by breathing, moving the tiny gravel under feet, the dust falling down weirdly near the invisible creature.

I meant to make an edit to my last post, but got distracted by real life.

I was misreading "a creature holding still is very hard to notice [Spot DC 30]" and in my head it came out as "a creature holding still and trying not to be noticed is very hard to spot, [DC 30]"

So yeah, a creature holding still trying to hide is DC 40.

Masaioh
2009-09-18, 10:05 PM
Mind Flayers. 2 of them couldn't even take down a level 7 Psion. They should be like CR 5. This was in a game I DM'ed, and both Mind Flayers were killed by one power in the first round, which then proceeded to demolish half of the dungeon. My solution? Fire Giant.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-18, 10:05 PM
Guys, you're doing it all wrong with the ogre magi. He's a leader monster.

He won't use his invisibility on himself only. He'll have a bunch of minions wich he'll also turn invisible (normal ogres for the lulz). Then he will hide traps inside his darkness spells.

He only dies horribly if you play him like a big dumb bruiser, wich he isn't in any way.

EDIT: for the matter, the designers expect you to use the monster abilities to the full, not just throw the monster against the party and try to full attack every turn.

The purple worm, for example, is that much scary when it bursts out of the ground whitout any warning, instantly swallowing a character, and then going back underground with something like spring attack. Hold monster? sorry, no line of sight wizard.

1) Yes, anyone can take the abilities of many monsters, set up the situation to favor them heavily (+1 CR) provide them with a bunch of allies (+more CR), but by that point, he's not a challenge for an actual party that should face him then either. He just doesn't contribute in offense except with a single Cone of Cold per day, and after that, he has the damage and HP and AC of a CR 2 enemy. He has some nice defenses, but that's not impressive when he can't do anything.

2) No, the designers really didn't intend for you to trade out monster feats for much better ones, including giving a Purple Worm more actions (because even a fly speed and Flyby attack wouldn't let him do what you are describing).

It might be best to do that with weaker monsters for better play. Or even all monsters with tricked out PCs. But by no means was dumpster diving for the best possible feats, especially ones based on HD, on every monster to make them 10 times the threat they are in the current rules, an actual expectation of the design. The monsters are supposed to just roll in and compete with players, like many of them actually do just fine.

Korivan
2009-09-18, 10:07 PM
Perhaps, but that's because we don't have any camels here except in zoos. Think of all the stories where you've heard of horses trampling and killing people when they got riled up.

Honestly...never. I've never heard of that happening. But it makes sense since horses have alot of mass, and it wouldn't be hard for them to go *squish squish squish* all over some poor dude infront of them. Still, it probably has happened in some desert somewhere. But still, take into consideration relativity... Consider orcs killing other races in D&D akin to humans killing humans in real life. In both scenarios, its a sentient creature capable of tactics, tricks, and use of long range and short range weapons. Where as, a camel, or a horse, needs to actually trample you. Given the rules are figuring its a four-man team of level ones against a camel should give "decent challenge"...pffffftttttt. Make me a DM, give me an orc, and he'll give you a challenge rating doubling a camel, easy. Though I should clerify that its not that animals can't trample, God knows I've used that with buffalo with past groups, its that I feel an orc can give a party a heck of alot more grief then a camel...

Jergmo
2009-09-18, 10:20 PM
Mind Flayers. 2 of them couldn't even take down a level 7 Psion. They should be like CR 5. This was in a game I DM'ed, and both Mind Flayers were killed by one power in the first round, which then proceeded to demolish half of the dungeon. My solution? Fire Giant.

Aye, but Illithids should never be encountered without other creatures serving them. That's what makes them strong, they're battlefield control.

Jergmo
2009-09-18, 10:33 PM
Mind Flayers. 2 of them couldn't even take down a level 7 Psion. They should be like CR 5. This was in a game I DM'ed, and both Mind Flayers were killed by one power in the first round, which then proceeded to demolish half of the dungeon. My solution? Fire Giant.

Aye, but Illithids should never be encountered without other creatures serving them. That's what makes them strong, they're battlefield control.

Edit: I tried pitting two Illithids with the elite array against a level 8-9 party who had charmed a number of ogres, who I had off to the side harassing their expedition members because I thought it might be too much trouble. It didn't go well for the Illithids.

Sharkman1231
2009-09-18, 10:40 PM
I was wondering, what's "that damn crab"?

Stormlock
2009-09-18, 10:50 PM
I really don't get all the people harping on the smart creatures for their poor performance when played solo. Just because it has a CR of 8 doesn't mean it's meant to be thrown in by itself vs a full level 8 party. It's too smart for that. What happens when, instead of being the first encounter in the day, it's the last, after the party has eaten some CR 8 traps and a band of ogres? (Say, a barbarian and 4 normal ogres together.) Now the wizard is lacking a scorching ray or three and a surprise round cone of cold doesn't seem so fair anymore.

You might as well complain that the Power Word: Stun trap isn't really CR 8 because it can't do anything unless something else comes along to back it up.

Also, vampires can summon packs of wolves to chew on you while you're waving your trinket around.

Jergmo
2009-09-18, 11:10 PM
-snips-

Also, there's that whole bit about the weaknesses of vampires being rather dumb. Why should we have to use what mythology says?

Milskidasith
2009-09-18, 11:26 PM
Err, stormlock, by the rules, a CR 8 encounter (IE one CR 8 monster against an ECL 8 party of four) is supposed to use one fourth of their resources. An Ogre Mage can just be full attacked to death after getting a suprise round or two to do some, but not a lot, of damage.

Dhavaer
2009-09-18, 11:50 PM
Shriekers. CR 1, AC below 10, no ability to move or attack.

Umael
2009-09-18, 11:53 PM
Err, stormlock, by the rules, a CR 8 encounter (IE one CR 8 monster against an ECL 8 party of four) is supposed to use one fourth of their resources. An Ogre Mage can just be full attacked to death after getting a suprise round or two to do some, but not a lot, of damage.

J-H-C!

Are you guys playing the same game?!?

By the RULES, one CR 8 monster should take an AVERAGE of one-fourth of the total resources of an AVERAGE ECL 8 party of four!

That makes, playing the monster the way it was meant to be played, against a bunch of average (not elite, not super-human, average) ECL 8 party of four, it will use up, an average, of one-fourth their resources.

Mind you, what constitutes one-fourth of the group's resources is somewhat undefined. So, let's just go with a definition of one-fourth that everyone will appreciate - the Ogre Magi has to kill one PC before dying.

Okay, how?

Well, if you could go invisible at will, I think the first thing I would do is stalk the party while invisible. When the time is right and one of the PCs is separated from the group, the Ogre Magi would attack.

A grapple from surprise, plus the ability to fly? Grab the fighter, fly up 200' feet, let go. Assuming Constitution 16 and average rolls, your average 8th-level fighter has about 70 hp. 20d6 of falling damage averages to 70 hp - and don't forget to save vs. Massive Damage.

That's one tactic. I'm pretty sure the Ogre Magi can think of a few more.

Milskidasith
2009-09-18, 11:59 PM
I don't think that "grapple somebody while he isn't near the group" is really an "encounter" for all four PCs. At best, it's sending a CR 8 monster against an ECL 8 party member, which isn't what the rules implied by an encounter.

By that argument, kobolds are around CR 5 because, if played as geniuses with access to fair amounts of money, Tuckers Kobolds can easily wipe out high level PCs. CR is meant to be CR in a straight up fight, not if you use optimal tactics and obliterate the PCs during their off time. Are commoners CR 4 because one, equiped with a strong exotic weapon, can kill the sleeping mage with a CDG in his sleep?

Not to mention the fact that an Ogre Mage actually has pretty terrible grapple modifiers and a fighter at level 8 with 18 strength (pretty low, honestly) would break even on grapple modifiers. Plus, it doesn't have improved grapple, and it's AC is terrible, so the fighter should have no trouble hitting it (80% chance with no feats, 18 strength, and a +2 sword.) So grappling the fighter when he splits up (if he splits up; remember, splitting up is dumb, and with passive spot and listen, it would take around two minutes or so for them to roll a 20 to notice the invisible creature was somewhere in the area.

So if the fighter splits up in the few minutes they have before they notice they are being stalked and if the ogre mage is optimized for grapping (which it's not, at all) and if the fighter is totally unoptimized for grappling short of even having a strength modifing item, and if the fighter is also unoptimized for hitting things, he still has an 80% chance of avoiding the attack, and even worse for the ogre mage, it's also got a mediocre chance of even hitting AC 10 for the grapple attempt.

OracleofWuffing
2009-09-19, 12:26 AM
Mind you, what constitutes one-fourth of the group's resources is somewhat undefined. So, let's just go with a definition of one-fourth that everyone will appreciate - the Ogre Magi has to kill one PC before dying.
I don't think it changes the point you're trying to make, but you have your definitions mixed up. If one of the PC's might die, "The Rules" say that's a Very Difficult encounter, not a Challenging one.

Umael
2009-09-19, 12:42 AM
I don't think that "grapple somebody while he isn't near the group" is really an "encounter" for all four PCs. At best, it's sending a CR 8 monster against an ECL 8 party member, which isn't what the rules implied by an encounter.

Look, if you want to play a leader-type monster like the Ogre Magi as an idiot, go for it. But going toe-to-toe with a band of four isn't too bright, nor is taking on the group all alone.



By that argument, kobolds are around CR 5 because, if played as geniuses with access to fair amounts of money, Tuckers Kobolds can easily wipe out high level PCs.

Kobolds are cunning, but they are not geniuses.
They do not have access to "fair" amounts of money, most of the time.
Playing them as Tuckers Kobolds would probably amount to giving an experience bonus, or treating them as higher CR monsters because the kobolds are getting to optimizing the battle setting beyond their normal abilities - or are you forgetting that you include the CR of a trap when calculating the challenge the party is going to encounter?

Also, kobolds can be played as cunning trapsters or cannon fodder, minions of a greater monster who sends them to their death.



CR is meant to be CR in a straight up fight,

Cite.
Or admit that is just your opinion.



not if you use optimal tactics and obliterate the PCs during their off time.

I didn't use optimal tactics by far.



Not to mention the fact that an Ogre Mage actually has pretty terrible grapple modifiers and a fighter at level 8 with 18 strength (pretty low, honestly)

...you don't get the part about AVERAGE, do you?

15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.

Those are your stats at 1st level.

I already gave the fighter a 16 Constitution by assuming it had acquired an item or used its stat boosts at 4th and 8th on Constitution (and that it started at 14).

I'm sure you can manipulate the WBL guidelines and go shopping for whatever item you want to get that strength up to 18, but not do that and convince me you aren't optimizing instead of playing average.



would break even on grapple modifiers.

Bull Rush the fighter into a deep pit. Or off the mountain. Or grapple the wizard instead.

Or forget the grapple altogether. Wait until the party triggers a trap and then take advantage to strike and then run. Flying at will means that the Ogre Magi retreats OVER untriggered traps.

Or is there ANOTHER tactic you want me to consider?



it would take around two minutes or so for them to roll a 20 to notice the invisible creature was somewhere in the area.

Already been mentioned before - the difficulty is a lot higher than 20, especially if the Ogre Magi stays far enough back. And rolling a 20 is not an automatic success on skill checks.

Umael
2009-09-19, 12:44 AM
I don't think it changes the point you're trying to make, but you have your definitions mixed up. If one of the PC's might die, "The Rules" say that's a Very Difficult encounter, not a Challenging one.

Oops.

(Makes my argument easier - go figure. Thanks.)

ZeroNumerous
2009-09-19, 12:46 AM
I was wondering, what's "that damn crab"?

A CR 2 crab that will kill every CR 2 party that isn't designed specifically to defeat only it.

EDIT:


A bunch of stuff about ogre magi

Did you forget that the CR of all combatants and traps are added together? 2 CR 8s is a CR 9. That's not a level appropriate encounter. If a creature needs other creatures and traps to be a threat, then it's over CR'd.

Forbiddenwar
2009-09-19, 12:58 AM
Shriekers. CR 1, AC below 10, no ability to move or attack.

Seconded. along with thier cousins, Violet fungus. A typical group of mushrooms can be easily taken down by a 1st level party.

On the subject of vampires. the Vampire spawn are a lot tougher than the vampires, it seems. No weakness regarding holy symbols, +2 turning resistence, Domination at will, Gaseous form, Damage reduction, fast healing, etc. for a CR5?

Gan The Grey
2009-09-19, 12:59 AM
Did you forget that the CR of all combatants and traps are added together? 2 CR 8s is a CR 9. That's not a level appropriate encounter. If a creature needs other creatures and traps to be a threat, then it's over CR'd.

That's not really true. Not all monsters are logically CR'd for being a solo encounter. Look at the Adamantine Horror. Disintegrate, Disjunction, decent HP, and I think it is like a CR 8. Someone with more patience than myself look this up to confirm. This thing is WAY under CR'd. Why? Because it is meant to be fought with followers.

EDIT I can't find any good info on this thing online. Too much conflicting info.

ZeroNumerous
2009-09-19, 01:03 AM
This thing is WAY under CR'd. Why? Because it is meant to be fought with followers.

How do you know that? Unless you have some specific mention of followers in it's Monster Manual entry, then we must assume that it's CR follows the general rule of all CRs.


Challenge Rating
This shows the average level of a party of adventurers for which one creature would make an encounter of moderate difficulty.

Emphasis Mine (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm).

Gan The Grey
2009-09-19, 01:34 AM
I'd quote its entry, but don't have my books with me, and can't for the life of me find an excerpt from MMII online. I do remember something about it having a number of platinum horrors around it at all times, and that the general entry of the clockwork horror states that these creatures attack in swarms.

And I thought doubling the number of creatures increased the CR by 2, not 1. This is within reason of course. Two kobolds is not a CR 2 1/4.

tyckspoon
2009-09-19, 01:37 AM
How do you know that? Unless you have some specific mention of followers in it's Monster Manual entry, then we must assume that it's CR follows the general rule of all CRs.



Emphasis Mine (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm).

For the Adamantine Horror in particular, it's the singular head beast of what is essentially a mechanical insect swarm. If you fight it without any followers, it means you've either already killed every lesser horror or you've found some very tricky and/or powerful way to draw it out alone- it'd be like going after a Formian Queen and not expecting it to have some Soldiers/Myrmarchs/other misc. Formians around.

Gan The Grey
2009-09-19, 01:38 AM
For the Adamantine Horror in particular, it's the singular head beast of what is essentially a mechanical insect swarm. If you fight it without any followers, it means you've either already killed every lesser horror or you've found some very tricky and/or powerful way to draw it out alone- it'd be like going after a Formian Queen and not expecting it to have some Soldiers/Myrmarchs/other misc. Formians around.

Yeah, this.

Sholos
2009-09-19, 02:49 AM
Over CR'd huh? Well how about the Pit Fiend? Shoot, it doesn't even have 20th level cleric casting. And its claws are only a +30 to-hit. Planetar, that's a CR 20 creature, if only for the 17th level cleric spellcasting which makes everything better.

EDIT: and the book calls it a CR 16. I wonder if a Planetar would defeat a pit fiend in one on one.

I think you missed the part where it can cast Blasphemy. At will. That potentially completely and totally locks down anybody near it that's not 19th level or up. Also, Power Word Stun at will, as well as Quickened Fireballs at will.

Not to mention the CON damaging poison (with a secondary effect of death). Pit fiends are nasty critters.

Also, they're CR 20.

Eldariel
2009-09-19, 04:01 AM
Look, if you want to play a leader-type monster like the Ogre Magi as an idiot, go for it. But going toe-to-toe with a band of four isn't too bright, nor is taking on the group all alone.

If it has favorable circumstances, its CR increases by 1. It's all there in CR description. I suggest you read them. Ogre Mages suck for their CR; there's no way around that. It's not a combat threat beyond the Cone of Cold, which is what CR assumes.

Hell, even WoTC acknowledges this. There's a rebuild (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060721a) of the Ogre Magi on WoTC site.

mostlyharmful
2009-09-19, 04:04 AM
I think you missed the part where it can cast Blasphemy. At will. That potentially completely and totally locks down anybody near it that's not 19th level or up.

At caster level 18 and since it's a SLA you can't use several of the CL booster tricks. you literally do nothing to your CR equivilant enemies. PCs two levels lower will have to deal with daze which is managable and avoidable. Blasphemy at will lets it autogib your minions at the cost of a standerd action. If they actually give a damn about their minions the party can shut down this with a Silence, a level 2 spell for crying out loud.


Also, Power Word Stun at will, as well as Quickened Fireballs at will.

Stun can be avoided at these levels and even so Power word stun has a range of close and any target with more than 150 (just about everyone at these levels) gets to ignore it although the pit fiend doesn't know how many they have so it might well try and blow the action.

The feat gives it quickened fireball 3/day. and at this level who the heck cares? the save is so low everyone'll make it just fine and everyone's had enough fire resistence to just flat ignore it for ten levels now, it's the easiest energy type to get resistance to and the most important as so many things use it.


Not to mention the CON damaging poison (with a secondary effect of death).

At level 15+ nobody cares. at CR20 poison is a joke.


Pit fiends are nasty critters.
Also, they're CR 20.

Meh, so far none of their tactics mentioned are worrying to a level 15+ party.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-19, 04:32 AM
...you don't get the part about AVERAGE, do you?

15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.

Those are your stats at 1st level.

I already gave the fighter a 16 Constitution by assuming it had acquired an item or used its stat boosts at 4th and 8th on Constitution (and that it started at 14).

The Elite Array isn't average, it's calculated without taking into account the actual reroll rules in the PHB. And Average character will have a starting stat of 16 or higher.


I'm sure you can manipulate the WBL guidelines and go shopping for whatever item you want to get that strength up to 18, but not do that and convince me you aren't optimizing instead of playing average.

No one needs to manipulate WBL guidelines to get a +str item, that's part of the WBL guidelines, not that it matters, because a level 8 Fighter with no items using the Elite Array could still easily have 20 Str.


Bull Rush the fighter into a deep pit. Or off the mountain. Or grapple the wizard instead.

Or forget the grapple altogether. Wait until the party triggers a trap and then take advantage to strike and then run. Flying at will means that the Ogre Magi retreats OVER untriggered traps.

Or is there ANOTHER tactic you want me to consider?

None of those work, because they all rely on stalking the party, something the Ogre Mage can't do, since it rolls 1d20 vs 1d20+9 minimum every round, and is known the second that 1d20+9 rolls higher than 1d20.


Already been mentioned before - the difficulty is a lot higher than 20, especially if the Ogre Magi stays far enough back. And rolling a 20 is not an automatic success on skill checks.

No, the difficulty is DC 20 for spotting him when he moves, which he would have to do to follow the party.

In the mean time, it's DC basically 10, to hear him, but it's even better because over 2-3 rounds, he'll roll a lower number, so the DC could be as low as 1.

bosssmiley
2009-09-19, 08:38 AM
Shriekers. CR 1, AC below 10, no ability to move or attack.

Shriekers are really a CR1 trap, rather than a proper monster. Their payload? The other creatures attracted...

woodenbandman
2009-09-19, 09:22 AM
The wizard who fell unconcious in the surprise round?

No. Wizards have 32 hp starting at level 5. It only takes a 16 in con. And honestly, what else is the wizard going to put his stat points into? Not charisma.

Wizards don't fall unconscious in the surprise round to a cone of cold spell. You seem to be making the common fallacy that people make when defending any given wizard, which is that the (monster in question) is facing opponents that are unprepared and stupid. Versus a party of four, the ogre mage will die. Even a lowly Spiritual Weapon will kill it. No matter how prepared the Ogre Mage is. It doesn't have the ability to compete with a party of four. Which is categorically untrue for a wizard, whose spell choices help him save the day. An Ogre Mage gets some SLAs at-will, which means nothing because all monsters have at-will abilities. And the SLAs aren't that good.

It's like this:
Ogre Mage: Prepare to enact my cunning plan

Wizard: Prepare 5 cunning plans. Apply as necessary.

Milskidasith
2009-09-19, 09:22 AM
Look, if you want to play a leader-type monster like the Ogre Magi as an idiot, go for it. But going toe-to-toe with a band of four isn't too bright, nor is taking on the group all alone.



First of all, I never suggested playing him as an idiot. But your tactics would not work, for a multitude of reasons, and would still involve sending him in a 1 on 1 fight. Hell, it's not smart for anything, even actually tough monsters, to attempt a fight with the party straight up, but some monsters with a high CR can do it and be a threat. Let's say that he's got a +1 CR from favorable circumstances (which is a pretty low addition when you consider that you've suggested bull rushing the fighter, while alone, off of a cliff)... that means that, even if the ogre mage could roll well enough to grapple and not, in fact, be detected, it would be an encounter above their level, sent at one person.


Kobolds are cunning, but they are not geniuses.
They do not have access to "fair" amounts of money, most of the time.
Playing them as Tuckers Kobolds would probably amount to giving an experience bonus, or treating them as higher CR monsters because the kobolds are getting to optimizing the battle setting beyond their normal abilities - or are you forgetting that you include the CR of a trap when calculating the challenge the party is going to encounter?

That's my point, actually. Don't you get it? I said that kobolds are higher CR monsters because, played cleverly, they can be a threat. You are proving that an ogre mage has to play cleverly just to work at it's appropriate CR. so does it really deserve a CR 8? While yes, you shouldn't play your things as idiots, sending it after one PC while it's alone is about the same as having a commoner CDG your wizard in the night and then getting killed by the rest of the party, and then claiming it's a level appropriate encounter.



Also, kobolds can be played as cunning trapsters or cannon fodder, minions of a greater monster who sends them to their death.

This statement is just plain irrelevant.



Cite.
Or admit that is just your opinion.

From SRD:


Challenge Rating
This shows the average level of a party of adventurers for which one creature would make an encounter of moderate difficulty.

Notice how it does not say "an encounter of moderate difficulty for one PC."


I didn't use optimal tactics by far.

Since your strategy was "Use invisibility, which is easy to detect by level 8 just with spot, then grapple the fighter, who, even if he uses the elite array and does not, for whatever reason, even have a magic sword or something to increase his strength or something to allow him to fly, is still better at grappling than the ogre mage, then drop him from a height that would require a couple rounds of flight where he could escape prematurely," I'd say we can agree on the fact that you did not use optimal tactics.




...you don't get the part about AVERAGE, do you?

15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.

Those are your stats at 1st level.

It's called "using a different race than human." Besides, that's not even as high as the standard point buy suggested in the DMG (which is 25), nor is it a particularly good point buy. Besides, you never mentioned what method you used to generate the fighters stats.


I already gave the fighter a 16 Constitution by assuming it had acquired an item or used its stat boosts at 4th and 8th on Constitution (and that it started at 14).



I'm sure you can manipulate the WBL guidelines and go shopping for whatever item you want to get that strength up to 18, but not do that and convince me you aren't optimizing instead of playing average.

It's a fighter. Is it really that unreasonable to suggest that it picks a race with +strength (Now 17), gets a +2 strength item by level 8 (considering it's 4000 GP, which isn't even a tenth of their WBL, it isn't that hard), and increases strength at each level, for a grand total of 21? That's not even nearly optimized.




Bull Rush the fighter into a deep pit. Or off the mountain. Or grapple the wizard instead.

More favorable circumstances... fighter alone by a deep pit fighting an invisible ogre mage who has some way of avoiding the fact it's still easy to detect him... that's at least a +1 to CR, and an encounter against one PC, where CR 9 (8+1 from circumstances) is supposed to be "overpowering" and instead we've got something that may be a threat if the wizard doesn't have, say, fly prepared, or if the fighter is terribly unoptimized and you roll well.


Or forget the grapple altogether. Wait until the party triggers a trap and then take advantage to strike and then run. Flying at will means that the Ogre Magi retreats OVER untriggered traps.

Untriggered.... traps? Weren't you telling me that you have to take the trap into account? Assuming three CR 8 traps (untriggered traps plus one trigger), that's a "Very difficult" encounter, and the ogre mage is still probably less of a threat than the traps.


Or is there ANOTHER tactic you want me to consider?

Realizing that the Ogre mage is under CR'd, because your tactics involve giving it absurdly favorable circumstances in fighting solo PCs and still don't work well, or involve giving it a bunch of traps to make it a credible threat (especially if it's flying over them, which actually should be a favorable circumstance making the encounter overpowering, where it's really "maybe difficult if the traps are annoying.")



Already been mentioned before - the difficulty is a lot higher than 20, especially if the Ogre Magi stays far enough back. And rolling a 20 is not an automatic success on skill checks.

The DC to notice an active invisible creature is 20. Distance penalties would apply... but it's not that hard to eventually roll a 20, and assuming you have even a +1, you can notice it.

woodenbandman
2009-09-19, 09:41 AM
Hey I have an idea. I'll make an adventurer. You make an Ogre mage. We will have an encounter featuring my adventurer and your ogre mage and nothing else. No traps. No minions. No unfair circumstances. No cliff to bull rush me off of. That is the definition of CR. A challenge for a party of X level, where X is the CR of the monster. I'll wager that my 1 well-rounded adventurer of level 8 will defeat an Ogre Mage. Shoot, I'll even optimize both of them. I will twink the crap out of that Ogre Mage.

jiriku
2009-09-19, 09:55 AM
You seem to be making the common fallacy that people make when defending any given wizard, which is that the (monster in question) is facing opponents that are unprepared and stupid.

I am not entering the ogre mage debate, but as an experienced DM, I'd like to point out that expecting stupidity and a lack of preparation from players often works out pretty well. :smallbiggrin:

Milskidasith
2009-09-19, 09:57 AM
I am not entering the ogre mage debate, but as an experienced DM, I'd like to point out that expecting stupidity and a lack of preparation from players often works out pretty well. :smallbiggrin:

Depends on your players... My RL players range from "complete ditz who actually managed to make a druid underpowered by spending rounds hugging her wolf and telling it things were going to be OK" to "OK, let's crack some skulls. *insert cunning plan IC,*" with it averaging out to be pretty well prepared for anything not incredibly specific.

waterpenguin43
2009-09-19, 10:02 AM
He won't be able to leave or attack them. Even turning into a cloud won't help if you suspend a skeleton from the ceiling.

Turn it into a tourist attraction. For five GP you get three cloves of garlic to throw at him. Land one in his mouth and get a free "Sparkle this." t-shirt.

You have won this thread.

Sharkman1231
2009-09-19, 10:38 AM
So could you tell me the exact name of "that damn crab" I'm on my iPhone and cant get my MM pdf.

woodenbandman
2009-09-19, 10:39 AM
So could you tell me the exact name of "that damn crab" I'm on my iPhone and cant get my MM pdf.

It's a monstrous crab with the Paragon and Pseudonatural templates applied, I think.

EDIT: Here's the Ding Dong Daddy (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=128381): Rogue3/Totemist2/Umbral Disciple3

When he's out of combat, he walks around, minding his own business. He is on the lookout for danger, hiding in the shadows to make sure that he's undetected. His spot modifier is +17, while his listen modifier is a mere +13. Ever vigilant (and just a little shy), he hides in shadows. His Embrace of Shadow ability is invested with 2 essentia, allowing him to hide in plain sight, with a hide modifier of (pre-engagement) +23, as is his Move Silently modifier.

When he encounters a monster, he usually sneaks up on it, waiting until he is within range, and lets loose a volley of four tail spikes. He makes 4 attacks at a +10 against the monster's Flat-Footed AC, each dealing 1d6-1 +3d6+4 Sneak Attack, with half sneak attack damage against immune opponents. Assuming all attacks hit, that's 16d6+12 damage, for a total of 68 damage average. That's just his standard action in the surprise round, by the way.

This is a guy who has nothing but the chain shirt on his back and a pair of dexterity gloves+2. I just picked a random sheet from my Mythweavers account and leveled him down to level 8. Originally he was intended for the Test of Might. The sad thing is that he's better at the "darkstalker" role than the Ogre Mage is, despite claims that the Ogre Mage was suited for this role.

Anyway, I suppose I should pick up an Ogre Mage and try to twink him out. BRB.

EDIT: The best I could think of was either Magic In The Blood (which turned out to be illegal) or Rock Throwing + Power Throw to give the ogre a fighting chance and turn him into a glorified flying hill giant.

SparkMandriller
2009-09-19, 11:34 AM
So could you tell me the exact name of "that damn crab" I'm on my iPhone and cant get my MM pdf.

Monstrous Crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)

20-34 damage from one hit, hoo.

Eldariel
2009-09-19, 11:36 AM
So could you tell me the exact name of "that damn crab" I'm on my iPhone and cant get my MM pdf.

THIS (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) is the infamous That Damn Crab™. Basically, there's no way for a level appropriate party to kill it short of really abusing the rules. Believe me, we've tried. It has way too much HP and way too high attacks and damage for any kind of direct fighting to function against it.

It has way too high Grapple for any appropriate characters to survive against it. It also has sick Fort-save and Mindless-trait, which just so happens to grant it immunity to the normal Brute-killers of low levels, and a very passable Reflex-save as well. And it's as fast as Barbarians making skirmish an unrealistic option. It's supposedly CR 3; two should form a dire challenge for a level 1 party with 50/50 chances. I dare you to kill even ONE with any sort of decent chances with a level 1 party when fighting on a mostly barren coast (ok, it can be done, but man, it ain't easy).

PinkysBrain
2009-09-19, 11:53 AM
The DC to notice an active invisible creature is 20.
"generally"

If he tries to hide it's simply an opposed check with a +20 bonus to his hide.

Milskidasith
2009-09-19, 11:59 AM
Which, with a +9 to spot, is still reasonably going to be made within a few minutes or so; you just have to beat his roll by around ten.

lord_khaine
2009-09-19, 12:13 PM
But you get a penalty to spot things far away, the dungeon dont have to be very big before you dont have a chance to detect him.

Milskidasith
2009-09-19, 12:21 PM
But at 90 feet away for a +9, or 170 feet away for a +17 to spot, the Ogre Mage, as written, has no way to harm the PCs.

ashmanonar
2009-09-19, 12:21 PM
Also, there's that whole bit about the weaknesses of vampires being rather dumb. Why should we have to use what mythology says?

See, that's when I would have the Vampire recoil in horror (faking it), then laugh.

Then reach out and kill somebody.

*monster knowledge check*

"Why, this vampire is a vampire of the (insert organization name). They don't suffer the weaknesses of normal vampires, by virtue of their different culture of origin."

"What?"

"You should have made the monster knowledge check first. Quit metagaming."


Now, obviously I wouldn't pull this, except vs a party that likes to metagame and destroy stuff with perfectly appropriate tactics (that they shouldn't know.)

Sliver
2009-09-19, 01:32 PM
See, that's when I would have the Vampire recoil in horror (faking it), then laugh.

Then reach out and kill somebody.

It happened to me in one game..

Some NPC came out of the woods to my TN rogue trying to harm me or w/e with some holy symbol or something.. So I reacted as the vampire, faking pain and stuff.. 'till I chased him down, tied him to a tree and went to town..

PinkysBrain
2009-09-19, 01:46 PM
"You should have made the monster knowledge check first. Quit metagaming."
You don't have to roll knowledge checks for things your character simply knows.

Personally I think it's a bit weird that in a world with magic and books you can learn a language for a minimal investment but you can never have read a book summarizing common monster weaknesses.

Umael
2009-09-19, 01:46 PM
Hey I have an idea. I'll make an adventurer. You make an Ogre mage. We will have an encounter featuring my adventurer and your ogre mage and nothing else. No traps. No minions. No unfair circumstances. No cliff to bull rush me off of. That is the definition of CR. A challenge for a party of X level, where X is the CR of the monster. I'll wager that my 1 well-rounded adventurer of level 8 will defeat an Ogre Mage. Shoot, I'll even optimize both of them. I will twink the crap out of that Ogre Mage.

It already is unfair.

The encounter is ALREADY figured with the party knowing that they are going to fight the Ogre Magi.

Also, optimizing FOUR PCs versus one optimizing Ogre Magi gives the party a lot more of an advantage.

That's why I keep stressing an average encounter.

Tell you what - CR 10. 4 PCs, level 10 vs. 2 Ogre Magi.

Given that the Ogre Magi can start off invisible (giving them surprise round) and can release both cones of colds - can you see how that an AVERAGE party is going to find that a little difficult?

(Actually, I don't think we're ever going to agree on what an AVERAGE PC is, so I think I just say forget it and leave the discussion.)

Kelpstrand
2009-09-19, 01:51 PM
"generally"

If he tries to hide it's simply an opposed check with a +20 bonus to his hide.

Except of course that the Ogre Mage's Hide check is actually -4, so the DC ranges between 17 and 36 over a series of rounds, with the PCs rolling quite high. And as already established, MS also comes into play, and that's just a straight opposed check of 1d20 v 1d20+stuff.

between four PCs, even assuming the Ogre Mages is 90ft away, outside of Cone of Cold Range, he'll still be noticed by listen checks in about two rounds.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-19, 02:04 PM
The encounter is ALREADY figured with the party knowing that they are going to fight the Ogre Magi.

I can easily build a non Ogre Mage aimed party. I just have to pull my standard Core 8 together and prepare the usual dungeon spells.


Tell you what - CR 10. 4 PCs, level 10 vs. 2 Ogre Magi.

And do you not see how taking a Monster with a heavily front loaded attack followed by basically zero damage, and then doubling the front loaded ness might be a bad method of judging CR.

If you take a monster with a once per day DC 10 Finger of Death that is unleashes in the surprise round, and then argue that because 64 of them together is a good CR 20 encounter that might kill PCs, therefore one of them is a good CR 8 encounter, is not good maths. The Ogre Mage is front loaded then useless, and facing a CR 8 party, has a 0% chance of killing anyone, and requires practically nill resource expenditure. Doubling up his front loaded offense does make it more likely to see a surprise round drop, but it also make a DC 10 Finger of death look level appropriate, when it isn't.


Given that the Ogre Magi can start off invisible (giving them surprise round) and can release both cones of colds - can you see how that an AVERAGE party is going to find that a little difficult?

(Actually, I don't think we're ever going to agree on what an AVERAGE PC is, so I think I just say forget it and leave the discussion.)

Well, as established, Can you see how a single Cone of Cold is not going to be even a little bit difficult for the average party.

So how about this. I make a Core only party of 4.

They are level 8. They are made with PB 28 PB. Since there is a 0% chance of the Ogre Mage actually killing anyone. What we do is take the consumable expenditure of a level 8 party, convert that into Wands of Cure Light wounds. Then we divide that by 14.33 (or 15 if it makes a pretty number).

Then your Ogre Mage goal is to attempt to expend it's fair share of HP, as defined by this consumable budget, assuming wands roll average.

sonofzeal
2009-09-19, 02:58 PM
Gah. Can't we give it up already? Ogre Mages miiiight be a challenge to some groups, but {a} they really aren't built for stalking, and {b} they only get one attack period that can do anything, and {c} their defenses are pathetic. Yes, a clever Ogre Mage can potentially be effective; almost any monster played cleverly can be effective. Yes, they can be effective in the right group; almost any monster can be effective in the right group. They're still fundamentally not suited for any combat style you might actually want to use them with.

Compare them with Amnizu (FC11 pg 112). They're not invisible, but they have more AC, more HP, better saves, DR, SR, Regeneration, Immunities, resistances, Quickened Fireball 3/day at a higher caster level, and a nasty Int-damage attack to boot. And they're at a lower CR. An Amnizu is far more likely to last multiple rounds in combat, and can pose a credible threat to even higher level group. One is far more dangerous to an ECL 8 party than an Ogre Mage is; two are devastating to an ECL 10 party that doesn't have fire immunity already up.

Now granted, Amnizu's are under-CR'd. Let's look through SRD; I see the Lammasu who's got Greater Invisibility to the Ogre Mage's lesser one, far better defenses, 4th level Cleric casting, and Pounce to get four decent attacks that can be made devastating with the right buffs at that level. Lammasu played decently has a greater chance of getting the jump on the party, is more likely to take down a character in the surprise round, and has much more staying power to be a credible threat to the rest of the group. The only thing it lacks are SR, and regeneration (which can be covered somewhat by Cleric spellcasting). It even has Dimension Door to 'port out, refresh its buffs, heal itself, and stalk the party again.

I also see a Bodak, who's going to be killing half an unoptimized party every round as a free action (seriously; I'm helping DM for an ECL 8 group now, with Fort saves of 8, 7, 3, and 5). Possibly under-CR'd against an unoptimized party, but it's also pretty trivial against an optimized one so I'll give it a pass. There's the Gorgon which also has a decent chance to screw half the party, the Destrachan which is just nasty, the Erinyes which does the grab-and-drop thing better than the Improved-Grapple-less Ogre Mage can, the 7-headed cryohydra which is either a pushover or incredibly frigging lethal depending on the context the Elder Xorn which has a better chance of ambushing the party with Earth Glide than the Ogre Mage does with Invisibility (and is nigh-impossible to kill and massively dangerous against a land-bound party), and I'm sure there's others.

Heck, compare an Ogre Mage to an Adept. Adept levels are non-associated, so a CL 16 Adept is CR 8, can do everything the Ogre Mage can do but better, can do a whole bunch of other things besides, and is probably going to be much harder to kill. And we all know what a CL8 Wizard can do to the party if he tries. So let's just leave the Ogre Mage; a single decent-damage Cone of Cold is not going to turn him into a major threat for his CR.



Anyway, back on topic.

Sea Cat - total pushover for its level. Compare with Polar Bears, which are the same CR and same fighting style.

Arrowhawks - can be hard for some ill-prepared groups, but 2d8 per round on a CR 8 monster? What's that going to do?

Kuo-Toa - hilariously awesome to use, with the whole racial-insanity thing, but absolutely no offensive threat by themselves and very over-CR'd for cannon fodder.

Phase Wasps - now, these guys start becoming a threat eventually due to how the EL curve works, but they die like (har!) flies and their damage, while reliable, is miniscule. You need 16 of these guys at CR 10 or 32 at CR 12, as well as decent tactics that their Int and description don't support, to cause any trouble for the heroes.

Volkov
2009-09-19, 03:01 PM
66 hp for a CR 3 monster? Jeeze, That's a vicious crustacean, perhaps I should make one have max hit dice, be awakened, and slap on a monster of legend template on it. I'm going to take the paragon, pseudonaural monstrous crab, give it max hit dice, the monster of legend template, add the lords of madness and complete arcane pseudonatural templates, add the half prismatic dragon, half force dragon, and half fiend. And awaken it, and slap on at least 200 levels of cleric, and give it all 18's for it's base stats, and then slap on the half-farspawn template, slap it with the spell warped template, throw on the half earth elemental template to add insult to injury, add both shadow templates and the dark template, add the chimeric template, and throw the multi-headed template on it, one hundred times, then add 50 divine ranks.

Eldariel
2009-09-19, 03:12 PM
66 hp for a CR 3 monster? Jeeze, That's a vicious crustacean.

It's honestly closer to CR 5...except Fly single-handedly makes it unable to affect the party in the natural environment. But yeah, on level 1, it's frankly an overwhelming challenge; out of Core I'd use the Gray Elf Wizard/Gray Elf Wizard/Human Barbarian/Human Barbarian party if I wanted to try and kill it realistically with a reasonable party. I think CR 5-6 is about right for it, 'cause it beats the crap outta e.g. Ogre.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-19, 03:27 PM
perhaps I should make one have max hit dice, be awakened, and slap on a monster of legend template on it. I'm going to take the paragon, pseudonaural monstrous crab, give it max hit dice, the monster of legend template, half dragon, and half fiend. And awaken it, and slap on at least 50 levels of duskblade or ranger. And give it all 18's for it's base stats, and then slap on the half-farspawn template, and throw the multi-headed template on it, ten times.

Been there, done that, bought the T-Shirt. Somebody already made a Super Demigod version that has much lower CR, because they didn't waste 50 levels of bad classes, and they didn't have to use pseduo methods like arbitrary 18s for stats or max HP per HD to make it virtually unkillable to a non Epic caster.

Of course, a level 21 Wizard could kill it like candy, and it's flat footed touch AC was only like 44 or something, so Incantatrix Death Orbs still win. But if it takes an Incantatrix or Epic Caster to kill you, you are basically invulnerable.

All it needed was Ray Deflection.

Volkov
2009-09-19, 03:28 PM
66 hp for a CR 3 monster? Jeeze, That's a vicious crustacean, perhaps I should make one have max hit dice, be awakened, and slap on a monster of legend template on it. I'm going to take the paragon, pseudonaural monstrous crab, give it max hit dice, the monster of legend template, add the lords of madness and complete arcane pseudonatural templates, add the half prismatic dragon, half force dragon, and half fiend. And awaken it, and slap on at least 200 levels of cleric, and give it all 18's for it's base stats, and then slap on the half-farspawn template, slap it with the spell warped template, throw on the half earth elemental template to add insult to injury, add both shadow templates and the dark template, add the chimeric template, and throw the multi-headed template on it, one hundred times, then add 50 divine ranks.

There I added more crap to it.

Volkov
2009-09-19, 03:29 PM
But it would still lose to someone's 3.5e stats for count bleck in a heart beat. Because that count bleck was literally impervious to all negative effects and did huge amounts of damage per attack.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-19, 03:40 PM
Yes, Homebrew "I'm invincible!" is better than everything.

Not that it matters.

But your example That Damn Crab + templates and 200 Cleric levels and 50 Divine Ranks still loses to a level 21 Wizard, unless it has the Epic Casting feat and abuses it, in which case they are equal.

Jergmo
2009-09-19, 03:40 PM
See, that's when I would have the Vampire recoil in horror (faking it), then laugh.

Then reach out and kill somebody.

*monster knowledge check*

"Why, this vampire is a vampire of the (insert organization name). They don't suffer the weaknesses of normal vampires, by virtue of their different culture of origin."

"What?"

"You should have made the monster knowledge check first. Quit metagaming."


Now, obviously I wouldn't pull this, except vs a party that likes to metagame and destroy stuff with perfectly appropriate tactics (that they shouldn't know.)

I was playing a vampire True Necromancer one time who was exploring a crypt to see if it would make a good base of operations, and encountered a gang of smugglers who were kidnapping folks to sell as slaves. (Villain campaigns are always fun), and they freaked out when she busted the door down and pitifully waved a holy symbol in her face. Moments later, hundreds of bats were swarming into the room and attacking them while she proceeded to snap the holy symbol bearer's neck. Fun times, all-around. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Also, first female vampire that wasn't a lesbian (or even had any interest in sex) ever!

Volkov
2009-09-19, 03:44 PM
Yes, Homebrew "I'm invincible!" is better than everything.

Not that it matters.

But your example That Damn Crab + templates and 200 Cleric levels and 50 Divine Ranks still loses to a level 21 Wizard, unless it has the Epic Casting feat and abuses it, in which case they are equal.

It would be a battle of cheese and rule abuse that would destroy the seven heavens and the nine hells. In fact it may involve literally summoning huge chunks of cheese the size of small nations to throw at each other. Until Vecna unleashes the plot device of the day and kills them both. Damn Vecna and his plot devices and xanatos roulette's and gambits. And the fact that some sources say he is at the very least a level 33 or so wizard, with divine ranks. That will allow huge amounts of cheese.

Jergmo
2009-09-19, 04:16 PM
My attempt at making the Ogre Mage respectable. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125562)

chiasaur11
2009-09-19, 04:29 PM
It would be a battle of cheese and rule abuse that would destroy the seven heavens and the nine hells. In fact it may involve literally summoning huge chunks of cheese the size of small nations to throw at each other. Until Vecna unleashes the plot device of the day and kills them both. Damn Vecna and his plot devices and xanatos roulette's and gambits. And the fact that some sources say he is at the very least a level 33 or so wizard, with divine ranks. That will allow huge amounts of cheese.

The overdeity of cheese might object to all parties involved.

And he has "I win" at will.

Let's go back to under CR'd.

Gnorman
2009-09-19, 06:48 PM
Practically anything in the MMII.

I note the Dune Stalker and Ethereal Slayer in particular. CR's of 9 and 12, respectively, and neither will ever even come close to killing a single character of that level, let alone an entire party.

Volkov
2009-09-19, 08:12 PM
Practically anything in the MMII.

I note the Dune Stalker and Ethereal Slayer in particular. CR's of 9 and 12, respectively, and neither will ever even come close to killing a single character of that level, let alone an entire party.

Do not mock the Ethereal slayer, it looks really damned awesome.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-19, 08:17 PM
See, that's when I would have the Vampire recoil in horror (faking it), then laugh.

Then reach out and kill somebody.

*monster knowledge check*

"Why, this vampire is a vampire of the (insert organization name). They don't suffer the weaknesses of normal vampires, by virtue of their different culture of origin."

"What?"

"You should have made the monster knowledge check first. Quit metagaming."


Now, obviously I wouldn't pull this, except vs a party that likes to metagame and destroy stuff with perfectly appropriate tactics (that they shouldn't know.)

Yknow, holy symbol vs a vampire is sufficiently well known here, in a world without vampires, that I suspect that in a world where they are an actual danger, word of an I-win button against them would spread around pretty rapidly.

Volkov
2009-09-19, 08:20 PM
The Linnorm's CR is much too high. A Gray linnorm would be flattened by the tarrasque, which has the same CR. A dread linnorm would still be flattened by the tarrasque, which has a lower CR, and the Corpse Tearer Linnorm would most certainly still be flattened by the tarrasque. Then again the tarrasque would slaughter the majority of the monsters with higher CR's than it with it's "haw you can't kill me" factor.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-19, 08:42 PM
The Linnorm's CR is much too high. A Gray linnorm would be flattened by the tarrasque, which has the same CR. A dread linnorm would still be flattened by the tarrasque, which has a lower CR, and the Corpse Tearer Linnorm would most certainly still be flattened by the tarrasque. Then again the tarrasque would slaughter the majority of the monsters with higher CR's than it with it's "haw you can't kill me" factor.

Well, except that anything with a fly speed can slaughter the Tarrasque with it's "I can fly" factor.

Granted most of them can't cast Wish. But a Efreeti + Allip is only EL 8 or 9, and it can take down an infinite number of Tarrasques at once.

Volkov
2009-09-19, 08:46 PM
Well, except that anything with a fly speed can slaughter the Tarrasque with it's "I can fly" factor.

Granted most of them can't cast Wish. But a Efreeti + Allip is only EL 8 or 9, and it can take down an infinite number of Tarrasques at once.
It has to get the hit points down first. And the linnorms cannot harm the tarrasque, who can simply wait until they tire, and then he will rip their guts out.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-19, 09:16 PM
It has to get the hit points down first. And the linnorms cannot harm the tarrasque, who can simply wait until they tire, and then he will rip their guts out.

Um. What? Who was talking about Linnorms? Seriously.

Genie + Allip. Allip does Ability Drain. Aillip is immune to Tarrasque. Efreeti can fly, can even use transport travelers to get Allip to catch Tarrasque if Tarrasque runs away. Tarrasque not smart encough to run away, keeps trying to hit Allip who is immune.

Allip does Wis drain until Tarrasque passes out keeps doing it all the time. Tarrasque is unconscious. Allip wishes for a +5 Collision Scythe for Efreeti. Does coup de grace for (2d6+19)x4 damage, average 104 damage. Does this until Tarrasque fails Massive Damage save or is brought to below -40. Does it some more to give him some extra room. Allip Wishes for Tarrasque Death.

Yes, anything without Wish, like Linnorms, can't kill the Tarrasque, that doesn't mean they are under CRed, it means they don't have Wish. You determine CR based on interactions with PCs.

Volkov
2009-09-19, 09:19 PM
Um. What? Who was talking about Linnorms? Seriously.

Genie + Allip. Allip does Ability Drain. Aillip is immune to Tarrasque. Efreeti can fly, can even use transport travelers to get Allip to catch Tarrasque if Tarrasque runs away. Tarrasque not smart encough to run away, keeps trying to hit Allip who is immune.

Allip does Wis drain until Tarrasque passes out keeps doing it all the time. Tarrasque is unconscious. Allip wishes for a +5 Collision Scythe for Efreeti. Does coup de grace for (2d6+19)x4 damage, average 104 damage. Does this until Tarrasque fails Massive Damage save or is brought to below -40. Does it some more to give him some extra room. Allip Wishes for Tarrasque Death.

Yes, anything without Wish, like Linnorms, can't kill the Tarrasque, that doesn't mean they are under CRed, it means they don't have Wish. You determine CR based on interactions with PCs.
I was talking about linnorms. Pretty much anything of a similar CR to a linnorm would destroy it. A level 26 lich would devastate a corpse tearer linnorm. A great wyrm gold dragon would pretty much rip apart the linnorm with ease.

sonofzeal
2009-09-19, 09:21 PM
It has to get the hit points down first. And the linnorms cannot harm the tarrasque, who can simply wait until they tire, and then he will rip their guts out.
Dude, every single Linnorm gets 9th level spells of one sort or another. These things can and will kill the Tarrasque with fairly little effort.

Volkov
2009-09-19, 09:22 PM
Dude, every single Linnorm gets 9th level spells of one sort or another. These things can and will kill the Tarrasque with fairly little effort.

I am pretty sure that their CL does not allow any really good spells to be casted. I looked over their Spell list, not a tarrasque tickler, much less a killer.

sonofzeal
2009-09-19, 09:25 PM
I am pretty sure that their CL does not allow any really good spells to be casted. I looked over their Spell list, not a tarrasque tickler, much less a killer.
The Grey and Corpse Terrors cast as Cleric, meaning they can choose new spells every day. The Dread casts as Sorc, with no spell list given, and still gets 9th level spells.

What you're looking at is their Spell-Like Ability list. They get actual real spellcasting on top of that. Also, the weakest of the bunch gets 3/day Shapechange, which is a Tarrasque-killer all by itself.

tonberrian
2009-09-19, 09:25 PM
Practically anything in the MMII.

I note the Dune Stalker and Ethereal Slayer in particular. CR's of 9 and 12, respectively, and neither will ever even come close to killing a single character of that level, let alone an entire party.

Counterpoint: Adamantine Horror.

It's what, CR 12? But it has ridiculous spell-like abilities like Disintigrate and Disjunction at will.

Vangor
2009-09-19, 09:36 PM
Counterpoint: Adamantine Horror.

It's what, CR 12? But it has ridiculous spell-like abilities like Disintigrate and Disjunction at will.

CR 9 with at-will Disintegrate, Implosion, and Mordekainen's Disjunction as a CL14 with 15+SL saves...or concentration for four rounds of Fort vs 24 or die.

Sliver
2009-09-20, 01:46 AM
Practically anything in the MMII.

I note the Dune Stalker and Ethereal Slayer in particular. CR's of 9 and 12, respectively, and neither will ever even come close to killing a single character of that level, let alone an entire party.

It's not like they are supposed to come close to killing an entire party, only make the party use some resources for the day..

Now that is some motivation..

"Go my minions! Die so those pesky heroes use their resources so they will have to rest to regain them! Muhahaha"

Kelpstrand
2009-09-20, 01:59 AM
It's not like they are supposed to come close to killing an entire party, only make the party use some resources for the day..

Now that is some motivation..

"Go my minions! Die so those pesky heroes use their resources so they will have to rest to regain them! Muhahaha"

He also said not come close to killing a single character. But by the CR rules, they should have a 50% chance of doing so.

Overpowering encounters are those you have a 50% chance of losing, 50% of winning.

A Level 8 party is 4 level 8 PCs.
A party of half size is -2 level.
A Party of two level 8 characters is a level 6 party.
A Party of one level 8 character is a level 4 party.
An EL of Party level +4 is overpowering.

An 'Overpowering' encounter for a party of a single level 8 character is a CR 8 encounter.

Therefore, if your CR 8 monster has a 0% chance of killing a Fighter in one on one, a 0% chance of killing a Rogue, a 0% chance on a Cleric, and a 0% chance on a Wizard...

Chances are that monsters is Over CRed.