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View Full Version : [3.5] Optimizing a bard build? Need help!



MustacheFart
2009-09-18, 01:47 PM
Hello all,


I'm going to be playing in a new campaign real soon here and I have decided that I want to try my hand at a bard. First and foremost, the campaign is going to be more centered around roleplaying (out of combat stuff) and less around hack & slash. Given that, a bard should obviously shine ... I would think. I just need some help accomplishing what I want to do, both in combat and out of combat. So, what I am really seeking from all you mighty character builders is advice on builds, gear, race, etc.

Here are the details of my character:

I am a traveling musician (original I know) who realized from a young age that there is way too much beauty in the world--one specific beauty being music. I also came to the conclusion that too many people out there are set on destroying all the beauty in the world and using it for their own selfish desires and to further their own ill-gotten gains (this will make sense after you read details of game-world). This was when I vowed to use the beauty of music to purify the lands of all tyranny and abuse.

So, basically I want to focus on using music to "control" my targets/opponents, get them to do whatever bidding I may have at the time, and then ultimately dispatch them.

One little shtick I would like to be able to perform, is to be able to make someone kill themselves. Like say for example, I encounter someone who's basically a tyrant. I would like to be able to sneak into his bed-chamber at night, awaken him via my music, and then make him walk out a window or hang himself.

Here are all the details of the campaign:

- Starting at level 1 so, any builds need to be playable from low levels

- All 3.5 edition books are allowed, whatever I pull just has to make sense

- 28 point buy for stats

- Starting gold for level 1 character

- 2 other party members include: 1 wizard(going to be a gish build) and 1 gnome illusionist

Details of game-world:

- The world is highly developed. There are lots of smaller cities/towns and several big ones.

- Magic however, is very rare. It is not hated or feared, instead it is admired, valued, and revered.


Well, that's it. Any help is appreciated. So far for a build I was considering maybe a strong-heart halfling who's straight bard going into the Mind Bender Prc.

Thanks,

MustacheFart

Keld Denar
2009-09-18, 02:02 PM
Pretty default Bard build is:

Bard5/Mindbender1/Bard+3/Virtuoso1/SublimeChord2/Virt+8 using Virtuoso to progress your Sublime Chord casting from 3 to 10.

Relavant feats include:
Melodic Casting (CMage, Cast while you sing, always a plus)
Song fo the Heart (ECS, +1 Inspire Courage, stuff)
Mindsight (Lords of Madness, Telepathic Blindsense)
Plus whatever else you want.

Suggested Spells:
Charm Person (Prereq for Mindbender, fits character)
Inspirational Boost (SpC, boosts Inspire Courage)
Dominate Person/Monster (get these with SubChord casting)

Plays as a buffer/caster with good social skills. Gets Bardic Suggestion to get people to see things your way, as well as 100' telepathy, which, combined with Mindsight, keeps you from pretty much ever being surpised by invisible stuffs, and also lets you perform music non-verbally in cases where you don't want to give away your position. All subjects can still "hear" you, you are just bypassing their ears on the way to their brain.

You might have to word your suggestions carefully, though, since according to the rules, suicidal orders are never carried out. The trick is to make it seem harmless, but thats more of a roleplaying aspect than a mechanical aspect.

The suggestion itself is relatively simple to optimize. Since the will save is based on your perform check, just maximize your perform check. Skill Focus, while normally a bad feat, gives +3 to the DC...thats better than Spell Focus, allthough more focused. There Chokers of Elocquence boost your cha based checks, and an item may give a specific bonus to Perform. You can also get a masterwork tool, maybe something like a song book, that you reference often, to gives you a +2 competance bonus.

TheThan
2009-09-18, 02:03 PM
Music no, magic YES!

Take a look at the bard spell list, notice anything yet?

No? well here you go: you have a lot of “control” spells. Both of the mental and of the battle field varieties. I suggest spells like Cause fear, charm person, grease, hideous laughter, hypnotism, sleep… and that’s just first level spells, I could keep going.

The problem with bards is that most people focus on their bardic music ability. While it’s a nice ability (mostly) they completely forget about the spells they have available to them (think Elan). The spells are where the bard’s power lies, Bardic music is just icing on the cake.

Another thing to realize is that the bard’s roll is that of a backup, he’s the perfect 5th character in a game. He takes the workload off the other characters by being able to wade into close combat, sit back and sling spells and doing some sneaking work. The bard is powerful, he’s just not as overtly so as the druid or wizard, he slips under the radar and then make the party glad he’s around.

Draz74
2009-09-18, 02:36 PM
One thing you definitely need to specify: are you willing to use spells to do the kind of controlling you envision (and after all, it's pretty strongly implied that all of a Bard's spells involve music to at least some extent), or are you looking specifically for a non-spell music effect that can make someone e.g. kill themselves?

If spells are ok, then Keld's build is a pretty safe staple. Although it sounds like you might be Good, so you'll have to drop the Mindbender part.

Either way, you definitely want to look into the Captivating Melody feat from Complete Mage.

Zaq
2009-09-18, 03:32 PM
Don't forget one of the golden rules of character flavor: Fluff as necessary or as awesome. If it doesn't have a mechanical change, pretty much any change you want to make to your abilities should be OK. (Yes, you need to run it by your GM first, but the point is, the books strongly encourage him to allow it.)

If you're not comfortable with that and you want something that sits on your character sheet, try Thematic Spell, which is I believe from PGtF but I might be mistaken. It makes all of your spells follow a specific theme... in your case "musical performance." Oh, and there's a penalty to Spellcraft to identify them, which is the only real mechanical benefit of the feat.

jiriku
2009-09-18, 03:32 PM
Disguise Spell and Subsonics, both from complete adventurer, are helpful for activating bardic music or spellcasting without letting anyone know you're doing it. This is endlessly useful if you're casting enchantments.

Enchanting Song from Races of Stone improves the effectiveness of bard enchantment spells. Green Ear from Complete Adventurer and Requiem from Libris Mortis allow you to affect plants and undead, respectively, with your bardic music.

Sublime Chord and Virtuoso are both effective prestige classes for what you're trying to do.

MustacheFart
2009-09-18, 03:35 PM
One thing you definitely need to specify: are you willing to use spells to do the kind of controlling you envision (and after all, it's pretty strongly implied that all of a Bard's spells involve music to at least some extent), or are you looking specifically for a non-spell music effect that can make someone e.g. kill themselves?

If spells are ok, then Keld's build is a pretty safe staple. Although it sounds like you might be Good, so you'll have to drop the Mindbender part.

Either way, you definitely want to look into the Captivating Song feat from Complete Mage.

I am totally willing to use spells to do the kind of controlling I envision. I just want it to be some how tied in with my music. That is to say, I don't want spell casting to completely overshadow the music aspect of my character, which is pretty much the main concept of the character.

As for being good, I don't think that's going to be a problem. Though I hate tyranny and all that, I'd be leaning more toward a neutral alignment as I am willing to do whatever it takes (within character concept) to achieve my goals.

---

I do have a couple questions, is singing the best route to go? I envisioned my character's choice of instrument to be a violin, not his voice. Though I did plan to take ranks in singing as a just-in-case measure.

About mind bender, would it not be better to go full mind bender? I mean I can totally see the whole perma-dominating creatures fitting my characer concept. Though I guess with access to higher level spells from Sublime Chord I could just use the actual dominate spell. It wouldn't last as long but it also wouldn't be as overpowered/intrusive out-of-combat, which means I probably wouldn't annoy the DM as much. I've already been told by some friends that mind bender is the way to go if you want to piss off the DM, which I know the end result of doing that so, that is totally not my intent.

On another note what about race? Does it matter? I was leaning toward a halfling (more for concept that mechanic-wise), possibly a strong-heart halfling in order to get the extra feat.

What would be good starting stats (28-point buy) for the above posted build? What should my spell list look like at first level?


Thanks for all the help so far!

MustacheFart

Telonius
2009-09-18, 03:48 PM
One little shtick I would like to be able to perform, is to be able to make someone kill themselves. Like say for example, I encounter someone who's basically a tyrant. I would like to be able to sneak into his bed-chamber at night, awaken him via my music, and then make him walk out a window or hang himself.

First, Fascinate your target. Use Disguise Spell and/or Subsonics to cast Crushing Despair. Then, Suggestion.

Draz74
2009-09-18, 03:48 PM
Enchanting Song from Races of Stone improves the effectiveness of bard enchantment spells.

This is similar to the Captivating Melody feat I suggested, but IMHO Captivating Melody is better.


I am totally willing to use spells to do the kind of controlling I envision. I just want it to be some how tied in with my music. That is to say, I don't want spell casting to completely overshadow the music aspect of my character, which is pretty much the main concept of the character.
Well, Sublime Chord does make you very spells-focused, but maybe not too much. Especially if you spend your feats on music-enhancers (including that old staple, Extra Music) instead of e.g. Metamagic.


As for being good, I don't think that's going to be a problem. Though I hate tyranny and all that, I'd be leaning more toward a neutral alignment as I am willing to do whatever it takes (within character concept) to achieve my goals.
Mindbender is a great option, then.


I do have a couple questions, is singing the best route to go? I envisioned my character's choice of instrument to be a violin, not his voice. Though I did plan to take ranks in singing as a just-in-case measure.
If you can spare a feat, check out Versatile Performer. Dilemma gone.

In any case, though, focusing on the violin should be fine. +2 bonus from masterwork and all that.


About mind bender, would it not be better to go full mind bender? I mean I can totally see the whole perma-dominating creatures fitting my characer concept. Though I guess with access to higher level spells from Sublime Chord I could just use the actual dominate spell. It wouldn't last as long but it also wouldn't be as overpowered/intrusive out-of-combat, which means I probably wouldn't annoy the DM as much. I've already been told by some friends that mind bender is the way to go if you want to piss off the DM, which I know the end result of doing that so, that is totally not my intent.
That, and the fact that you would be taking 5 levels that don't advance your casting or your singing. Ick.

Besides, full Sublime Chord gets you Dominate Monster ... which lasts for one day per caster level. It may not be permanent, but in most campaigns it might as well be.


On another note what about race? Does it matter? I was leaning toward a halfling (more for concept that mechanic-wise), possibly a strong-heart halfling in order to get the extra feat.
Strongheart Halfling, if it's available, is definitely much more powerful than Halfling.

Gnome also deserves a mention if you think you might use Illusions in combat.

Really, you'll be fine with any of (Strongheart) Halfling, (Whisper) Gnome, or Human.


What would be good starting stats (28-point buy) for the above posted build?
Str 8, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 18 is probably the optimal, though personally I kind of prefer to lower my casting stat to about 16 and boost the others up accordingly.

That's before racial adjustments btw. And it all depends on whether there are non-standard ways you're planning to use your Intelligence (e.g. Versatile Performer, Knowledge Devotion ...)


What should my spell list look like at first level?

They're cantrips. :smalltongue:

Prestidigitation, Message, Detect Magic are pretty much staples. For the last one, you can choose by flavor: Mending, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Summon Instrument, Stick.


First, Fascinate your target. Use Disguise Spell and/or Subsonics to cast Crushing Despair. Then, Suggestion.

Works better if you also have Melodic Casting from CMage.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-18, 04:03 PM
I would like to be able to sneak into his bed-chamber at night, awaken him via my music, and then make him walk out a window or hang himself.
That's a rather risky proposition, what if he saves? You could just benign transposition him out of the window (with a familiar) or at higher level simply DD with him. Sleeping == willing, so no save.

There are a couple other no save spells which you can use to give you a chance to establish your mind control with a little less risk of him calling for guards, silence, levitate and gaseous form for instance (he can move max 20 feet per round in gaseous form so he isn't going anywhere fast, also makes it very hard for him to use magic).

Keld Denar
2009-09-18, 04:10 PM
Badass bard with a violin? You mean....this?
http://media.photobucket.com/image/bard%20awesome/ClericofPhwarrr/bards.jpg

Yea, spellcasting is just gonna be plain old better than songs. I mean, bardic suggestion is MUCH more powerful than the spell, simply due to the save mechanic, but Dominate Person is MUCH more powerful than Suggestion in ANY form.

Yea, Human or Strongheart Halfling are both great options.

I wouldn't suggest more levels of Mindbender. It doesn't do much that you can't replicate with spells, and the hit to both Spellcasting AND music is pretty traumatic, from a CharOp PoV. Mechanically, you can do all that just the same with spells. Now, if you were talking about a Psion/Thrallherd, then we're talking about a horse of a different color. Thrallherd is obscenely powerful compared to Mindbender...but thats neither here nor there.

Try your hand a posting a sample build with the info we've given you here, and we'll critique it. It is your character, afterall!

PinkysBrain
2009-09-18, 07:58 PM
Psionics also has control body ... if you're character is really a sick SoB who wants people to hang themselves he probably wants them fully conscious while it happens. Which is not really the case with dominate person.

gorfnab
2009-09-19, 04:05 AM
Now if you really want to oppose tyranny then CG alignment can have interesting results.
Bard 6/ Crusader 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8
9th level spells, BAB 17, and a decent amount of maneuvers to back you up.
Song of the White Raven feat and some of the White Raven maneuvers fit very nicely thematically with bard. Also anything you or your wizard summons is technically an ally so that opens up some more options with White Raven. I would also almost go with Dragonfire Inspiration with a build like this.