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Amador
2009-09-18, 02:04 PM
I've seen several posts on the forums implying that the MT is not worth taking and I was wondering why this might be the case. It seems to me that progression in cleric and wizard spell casting would be really good. I've been thinking about going MT with a cleric 3/wizard 3 that is about to level up after the next session.

kamikasei
2009-09-18, 02:07 PM
Having to take those three levels in each class puts you two full spell levels behind in both. Two spell levels add up to a lot of lost power. You have extra versatility, but can still only cast the same number of spells in a round, so you're generally better off having more powerful spells to cast than more and different ones.

It's not that MT is useless so much as that it looks much more powerful to many people than it actually is.

The Mentalist
2009-09-18, 02:07 PM
The problem is you have both progressions at the cost of -2 spell levels in each, even with practiced spellcaster (Complete Divine?) you're biting spell levels... a very very bad thing. Where a lot can be done with low level spells, with the loss of a single caster level in either class (beyond MT) you don't get any 9th level spells. It comes down to the caster maxim

Thou shalt not lose caster progression... unless it's just too sweet to pass up.

Magnor Criol
2009-09-18, 02:07 PM
The MT's problem is not that its abilities would not be useful, it's that the usefulness doesn't come soon enough. By the time you can take the class, you've had to go through 3 levels of cleric and 3 levels of wizard - meaning that, when you take your first level at character level 7, you're just casting level 2 spells, and only at CL 3. When you're facing level 7-appropriate monsters, level 2 spells at CL 3 just don't measure up well.

There's ways around both problems, but they're kinda twinky and force you to invest a lot of your precious feat slots in them, and they're still not total fixes.

-e- Double ninja'd! Should've known I'd not be quick enough to be first...I'm too wordy. =p

Alex Star
2009-09-18, 02:09 PM
MT Lacks the ridiculous power jump that not having maximum level spells provides.

However, keep in mind much of the optimization that occurs on this board (and many other boards) is not truly intended to ever see actual play.

The problem with MT is that it finds it's Niche in the power scale for a very small period of time. Before it's momentary versitility is outclassed by the higher power of pure class builds.

Douglas
2009-09-18, 02:10 PM
If you're already cleric 3/wizard 3, then yes Mystic Theurge is pretty much the best way to go. The problem comes when you start comparing that cleric 3/wizard 3/MT 1 to a cleric 7 or wizard 7. While you're casting Invisibility, Cure Moderate Wounds, Glitterdust, and Spiritual Weapon, the single class character is casting Improved Invisibility and Phantasmal Killer or Cure Critical Wounds and Divine Power. Sure, he's limited to just one of the two spell lists and that cuts down on his versatility, but his spells are a lot more powerful.

kamikasei
2009-09-18, 02:13 PM
However, keep in mind much of the optimization that occurs on this board (and many other boards) is not truly intended to ever see actual play.

Er, the only optimization required to outclass a theurge is to play a straight-classed cleric or wizard. That's hardly something that's never intended to see actual play.

Murdim
2009-09-18, 02:18 PM
I've seen several posts on the forums implying that the MT is not worth taking and I was wondering why this might be the case. It seems to me that progression in cleric and wizard spell casting would be really good. I've been thinking about going MT with a cleric 3/wizard 3 that is about to level up after the next session.If your character can already qualify for Mystic Theurge, then the damage is done and you have no reason not to take it. It's the pre-PrC levels which makes most multiclassed builds underpowered compared to single classed casters ; the PrC itself actually limits the disaster.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2009-09-18, 02:26 PM
with the loss of a single caster level in either class (beyond MT) you don't get any 9th level spells.

Actually you only sacrifice 3 levels and Wiz and cleric. Both get 9th level spells at 17th so hypothetically you still getting 9th level spells in a standard 20 level progression. The difference is you can get 9th level spells as a cleric AND a wizard. (Personally very fond of having Time Stop AND True Resurection)

The problem is really with the middle levels and in a game that is not overly optimized it would work very well actually.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-18, 02:27 PM
I enjoy Favored Soul 1/Sorcerer2/MT 7/Sacred Exorcist2/Ab Champ5/MT3

Use Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell to get early entry for Favored Soul and Sorcerer. You can get 12th level Favored Soul spellcasting and 18th level sorcerer spellcasting this way.

Still, not as good as it could be. I mean, you lose 2 9th level spells for 6th level divine spells and turn undead.

Something like Wizard8/Ur Priest2/MT8 would get you 9th level spells on both sides, and that's better.

ericgrau
2009-09-18, 02:28 PM
I've seen several posts on the forums implying that the MT is not worth taking and I was wondering why this might be the case. It seems to me that progression in cleric and wizard spell casting would be really good. I've been thinking about going MT with a cleric 3/wizard 3 that is about to level up after the next session.

People are more worried about what someone might do rather than what he really can do. MT gives up 3 caster levels for more versatility and spell slots. Theoretically speaking, the latter is worth zippo b/c any build could theoretically have those same spells and higher level ones as well. As for whether you actually have that spell prepared, it's more likely if you have more of them.

I mean, do play smart and remember it's still a trade-off. If you're in a 1 encounter per day group with nothing but the same whack-a-monster combats where it doesn't matter much which high level spell (yes, singular) you have prepared, nor do you have to worry about running out (of just 1 spell), then the MT is pretty much giving up power for nothing. But in more interesting settings the MT can benefit more. Just look at Tsukiko. The solution for simpler settings is just don't play a MT. I mean, you'd have to give him full caster level in both classes just so a MT could keep up - you can still only cast 1 high level spell per round - and no DM would allow such a MT.

AmberVael
2009-09-18, 02:32 PM
Actually you only sacrifice 3 levels and Wiz and cleric. Both get 9th level spells at 17th so hypothetically you still getting 9th level spells in a standard 20 level progression. The difference is you can get 9th level spells as a cleric AND a wizard. (Personally very fond of having Time Stop AND True Resurection)

The problem is really with the middle levels and in a game that is not overly optimized it would work very well actually.

The problem with this being that (pre-epic) Mystic Theurge only has 10 levels, so you can't progress in it long enough to gain 9th level spells from both classes.
Even if you COULD advance in epic Mystic Theurge levels, you'd still not gain 9th level spells from both classes by level 20, as epic MT levels advance only one side per level.

Arakune
2009-09-18, 02:32 PM
If you can break the action economy in some way, maybe it's worth it a try?

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-18, 02:32 PM
Mystic Theurge is very good at epic levels, though.

Especially if he has the Animal domain.

Three times the epic spell slots? Yes please. (That ruleset is written so badly.)

HCL
2009-09-18, 02:32 PM
Its not bad if you do an early entry trick. Otherwise its strictly worse than going straight in divine or arcane casting class

kamikasei
2009-09-18, 02:33 PM
Actually you only sacrifice 3 levels and Wiz and cleric. Both get 9th level spells at 17th so hypothetically you still getting 9th level spells in a standard 20 level progression. The difference is you can get 9th level spells as a cleric AND a wizard.

It's a 10-level class. You'd have to find some other dual-progression class to take after it in order to get 17th-level casting in both classes; otherwise you have to pick one.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-18, 02:36 PM
Everything is better with Ur Priest.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2009-09-18, 02:38 PM
The problem with this being that (pre-epic) Mystic Theurge only has 10 levels, so you can't progress in it long enough to gain 9th level spells from both classes.
Even if you COULD advance in epic Mystic Theurge levels, you'd still not gain 9th level spells from both classes by level 20, as epic MT levels advance only one side per level.

Good point, i'm more accoustomed to useing MT after levels in Arcane heirophant. I'd have to look around for another PrC with full dual progression. . . im sure there another one out there.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-18, 02:40 PM
Good point, i'm more accoustomed to useing MT after levels in Arcane heirophant. I'd have to look around for another PrC with full dual progression. . . im sure there another one out there.

Fochlucan Lyrist.

Umael
2009-09-18, 02:42 PM
Two things:

* If you are fixated on optimization, it's probably not worth taking. If you like the concept, go for it.

* Mystic Theurge does NOT set you back 2 spell levels. It sets you back 1.5 spell levels.

Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT 1 = spells of 2nd level, as per Wizard 4/Cleric 4
Wizard 7 = spells of 4th level
Cleric 7 = spells of 4th level

Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT 2 = spells of 3rd level, as per Wizard 5/Cleric 5
Wizard 8 = spells of 4th level
Cleric 8 = spells of 4th level

Small difference, but it might be enough of one to make the MT look a little less unattractive to someone who is considering it.

Vangor
2009-09-18, 02:42 PM
The niche I have found for MT is in a lower power, generally new player, group to assure an amount of Arcane and Divine utility. Notice, you broaden utility and resources, but you lose greater utility and efficiency of resources, and this is why low power groups are essentially necessary. While you certainly have more spells per day and a massive selection for all tasks (Archivist/Wizard for practically every spell), what you can select is not as devastating nor may not be as capable of completing the task.

Personally, if choosing a split caster, I have preferred an Arcane Hierophant. I have used either once, however, but the AH was significantly more powerful and was not as cornered by actions due to the animal companion progression.

Murdim
2009-09-18, 02:43 PM
Everything is cheesier with Ur Priest.Fix'd. Why Evil always has the coolest, most powerful things is, of course, another question. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilIsCool)

ericgrau
2009-09-18, 02:43 PM
If you can break the action economy in some way, maybe it's worth it a try?

In a setting where you couldn't possibly use so many spell slots nor need so much versatility, you could greatly limit the spells per day in exchange for a higher caster level.

Starscream
2009-09-18, 02:45 PM
Personally, if choosing a split caster, I have preferred an Arcane Hierophant. I have used either once, however, but the AH was significantly more powerful and was not as cornered by actions due to the animal companion progression.

Agreed. You will still not be as powerful as a straight caster, but AH offers at least a few handy class features on top of the split casting to give it a boost.

jiriku
2009-09-18, 02:47 PM
Amador, I'd agree with the others: given that you alredy have a wiz3/cleric3, mystic theurge is the best avenue for you. If you had it to do over again from level 1, I wouldn't recommend it.

For your current character, I'd encourage you to consider quicken spell and divine metamagic (quicken). Also get a lesser metamagic rod of quickening as soon as you can. You need quickened spell in order to take advantage of all your extra spell slots, and you don't have enough higher level spell slots to quicken things the usual way.

Also take a glance at the arcane strike feat in Complete Arcane, which might combine well with the many powerful touch attack spells available to you as a cleric.

Godskook
2009-09-18, 02:54 PM
Having exactly 10 levels of Mystic Theurge is very good at epic levels, though.

Especially if he has the Animal domain.

Three times the epic spell slots? Yes please. (That ruleset is written so badly.)

Fixed it for you. Seriously. In epic play, there's no excuse for taking an 11th level of MT. I'm sure that you meant that, but it helps to be clear. I mean, a hybrid class fails utterly when simply taking half progression in each of the originals works better.

Zaq
2009-09-18, 02:56 PM
In a setting where you couldn't possibly use so many spell slots nor need so much versatility, you could greatly limit the spells per day in exchange for a higher caster level.

Such as... by playing a straight-classed Wizzie or Cleric?

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-18, 02:57 PM
Fixed it for you. Seriously. In epic play, there's no excuse for taking an 11th level of MT. I'm sure that you meant that, but it helps to be clear. I mean, a hybrid class fails utterly when simply taking half progression in each of the originals works better.

Well, yeah. Obviously.

Epic Mystic Theurge is broken. In the Truenamer way.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-18, 02:57 PM
I've seen several posts on the forums implying that the MT is not worth taking and I was wondering why this might be the case. It seems to me that progression in cleric and wizard spell casting would be really good. I've been thinking about going MT with a cleric 3/wizard 3 that is about to level up after the next session.

Let's look at it another way:

The sorcerer. Compared to the Wizard, the Sorcerer's spell progression is nerfed to make up for extra spells/day. In effect, it's like playing a Wizard who is one level behind everyone else at all times, but is able to overcome this nerf with extra spells/day (but not spells known, which is the other major problem with the Sorcerer). his caster level is fine thanks to an invisible application of Practiced Spellcaster, but he is always going to be the Luigi to the Wizard's Batman (yes, I mean Luigi to Batman, not to Mario).

The Mystic Theurge? It's like being 1/4th of what the Sorcerer has. In exchange for the casting abilities of two classes, you end up 3 or more levels behind the advancement of the Wizard. By the time you are casting 3rd level spells in both classes (Wiz 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 2), the pure Wizard is all ready at 4th level spells (and about to get 5th). The sorcerer just got 4th level spells himself.

Likewise, by the time you have 8th level spells on both sides (Wiz 5/Cleric 5/MT 10, the worst possible combination), the pure Wizard has had those same spells for almost 5 levels now! He's even had 9th level spells for 3 levels. The Sorcerer has had access to his 9th level spells for two full levels, and you won't get them until level 24 (not 22 people, 24, the Epic Theurge is nerfed even further than the normal one).


In other words, you exchange sheer power for endurance and breadth. But those don't matter by the time you get it. Here's why:


The biggest problem here was that 2-5 spells would be the most a Wizard would cast each combat. He wouldn't need more than that unless he was specifically designed to nova every battle. The other problem was spells/day. A wizard has 9 levels of spells, and 4-6 spells of each level (before items and bonus spells). That's about 54 spells/day. Possibly more.

Assuming the average combat lasts 3 rounds, and that the Wizard knows what he is doing, 3-5 spells would be cast and he could just sit back and do nothing. At the rate of 4 encounters/day, he's going to burn through 25 spells a majority of the time, just under half of his base allotment.


Compare to the Mystic Theurge: At level 20, you will have (assuming Focused Specialist on the Wizard's side) 8 levels of spells (not counting cantrips and orisons here). On the Wizard's side, you have 6 spells/day of 5th level and lower, for a total of 30 spell slots under 5th level. The cleric is just behind, with 28 spells/day. That's 58 spells/day of 5th level and below. This is before bonus spells here, and not counting the remaining 12 wizard slots and 9 cleric slots (Focused Specialist, remember). So in truth, you have a total of 79 spells/day before bonus spells.

Seeing as a pure Wizard can go through entire encounters on 5 or less spells/day, and you are half-Wizard, you trade access to the most powerful of those encounter-ending spells for extra endurance. In a single round, barring DMM Quicken or other shenanigans, you will only be able to cast one or two spells/round.

Guess what? That extra endurance is wasted if there's less than 8 encounters/day. At the rate of 8 encounters/day, you'd be leveling up every other day or so (13.3 encounters between levels is how the XP ends up being distributed). At that point, you may as well have been playing a Martial Adept or a Warlock or a DFA, not a caster. If you knew there were going to be 8 encounters/day, those classes end up being the better choices if you really know how to use their abilities.

So, really, you're sinking 5 levels of spell aquisition into getting a 50% increase in spells/day. More with Bonus spells. That isn't worth 5 levels of spell advancement. That's worth a class feature (Focused Specialist gives you a 50% increase in spells/day as a Wizard).

Godskook
2009-09-18, 03:12 PM
Uh guys, the question posed was:

"Is Mystic Theurge worth taking on my wiz 3/cleric 3 character?"

And the answer is almost definitely yes. Now, if you were somehow able to retrain into a single caster, that'd be a better choice, but since you're there, you might as well gain MT levels.

ericgrau
2009-09-18, 03:15 PM
Such as... by playing a straight-classed Wizzie or Cleric?

I meant similar spells per day but spells from both lists.

Lysander
2009-09-18, 04:29 PM
In terms of combat, a wizard is a soldier with a bazooka. A mystic theurge is a medic with a machine gun. The first has bigger blasts, but the second has a lot more shots and he can heal you.

Also, a mystic theurge is a good way for DMs to fairly limit magic in campaigns where they don't want their players getting Wish and Shapechange. If the campaign is better suited by a weaker caster that can do almost anything and never runs out of spells, instead of an archmage reshaping reality a few times a day, MT can really help.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-18, 04:31 PM
You still get Wish or Miracle if you go MT though.

Lysander
2009-09-18, 04:35 PM
You still get Wish or Miracle if you go MT though.

But fewer times. And if you've done any additional multiclassing then no.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-18, 04:37 PM
But fewer times. And if you've done any additional multiclassing then no.

Additional multiclassing?

What sort of insane character would multiclass out of Mystic Theurge?

quick_comment
2009-09-18, 04:40 PM
Additional multiclassing?

What sort of insane character would multiclass out of Mystic Theurge?

Someone who already took 10 levels of MT?

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-18, 04:43 PM
A Wizard 7/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10 (or Cleric 7, Wizard 3) isn't that bad. Especially if she took Practiced Spellcaster.

Doc Roc
2009-09-18, 04:48 PM
I have nothing to add except to emphasize that you should either use early entry, or fast progression classes with mystic theurge.
Any other schema is a fail-boat seeking harbor.

Strictly worse than the Psychic Theurge variant, in most cases.

quick_comment
2009-09-18, 04:53 PM
A Wizard 7/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10 (or Cleric 7, Wizard 3) isn't that bad. Especially if she took Practiced Spellcaster.

And if your GM isnt aware/doesnt care about the errata that stops DMM from working on arcane spells.

Amador
2009-09-19, 08:11 PM
Ok, so after reading through this I've talked with the DM, and took a look at the Arcane Hierophant, and we've agreed that if I can come up with better version of Mystic Theurge then I might be able to use that. I was thinking that upping the HD to a d6 and either some kind of ignore armor spell failure, or maybe bonus feats. What does the Playground think?

tonberrian
2009-09-19, 08:47 PM
One thing that I saw way back, and it seemed to catch on, was just giving Geomancer 10/10 progression and calling that Mystic Theurge.

Mauril Everleaf
2009-09-19, 10:04 PM
Consider taking a look at the Pathfiner Mystic Theurge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/mystic-theurge). While still not amazing, it is still better than the MT from the 3.5 DMG.

Volkov
2009-09-19, 10:17 PM
The Mystic theuge has a bucket load of spells, and not much else.

Kobold-Bard
2009-09-20, 06:25 AM
Ok, so after reading through this I've talked with the DM, and took a look at the Arcane Hierophant, and we've agreed that if I can come up with better version of Mystic Theurge then I might be able to use that. I was thinking that upping the HD to a d6 and either some kind of ignore armor spell failure, or maybe bonus feats. What does the Playground think?

Assuming Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge:

- d6 Hit Dice (half way between)
- 1/2 BAB (sice it has no need to melee anymore)
- Good Fort and Will Saves (To balance the reduced BAB?)
- Eldritch Fusion:A Mystic Theurge's blending of two different casting types unlocks within him a unique ability.

1/day he cast two spells as a Full-Round Action. One of these spells must be from an Arcane casting class and the other from a Divine casting class. Both of these classes must have been advanced by at least one level of Mystic Theurge, although they need not have been advanced at the same level. Both spells must have a casting time of 1 Standard Action or less, and be at least one level lower than the maximum you can cast for that particular class.

He may do this 1/day at first level, and an additional time/day at every odd Mystic Theurge level. This has no effect on the number of Quickened Spells the Theurge may cast.
- At Levels 2 + 6 you gain Practised Spellcaster as a bonus feat. The feat must be taken for a class that you have advanced with at least one level or Mystic Theurge.
- Capstone Ability of some description.

Whaddaya think?

Sliver
2009-09-20, 06:44 AM
I was wondering, why is taking cleric for MT better then taking archivist?

Kobold-Bard
2009-09-20, 07:11 AM
I was wondering, why is taking cleric for MT better then taking archivist?

Archivists have more class features to lose. The only thing Clerics give up is Turn Undead.

Sliver
2009-09-20, 07:33 AM
Archivists have more class features to lose. The only thing Clerics give up is Turn Undead.

But isn't something like "I need INT for all my spells" more important then "I don't lose that much"?

Kobold-Bard
2009-09-20, 07:40 AM
But isn't something like "I need INT for all my spells" more important then "I don't lose that much"?

I never said it was a bad choice, I'm just telling you why Cleric is better than Archivist. If you want to focus your stats, and can live without Dark Knowledge (as I usually can), then Archivist is definitely better than Cleric, especially if your Spellbook and Prayerbook are the same one.

Sliver
2009-09-20, 07:59 AM
I would even think that it would be more useful if your DM allows you to get the same spells from other classes but at lower level, so you can max your wizard and keep the archivist a bit lower because you still can get some of the higher level spells..

taltamir
2009-09-20, 05:50 PM
Any of those three PrCs absolutely suck because they cap out at level 10.

That means that your character progression is:
level 1 through 3: normal class
level 4 through 6: You get progressively WEAKER with every level...
start a second casting class, you are essentially not gaining any power and are stuck as strong as a you were in level 3.
Level 7 through 17: You maintain your power level, but you do not "catch up" with the rest of the party. you gain 1 CL in each side per level, you are finally back on track with normal progression and don't LOSE power every level, having sacrificed some CL to get where you are, you are still behind any single level caster.

Level 18+: your theurge, hirophant,whatever PrC maxed out, you can no longer gain +1 on both, instead having to choose a single base class, like wizard or cleric or druid, to level per level. If you choose to alternate them you will RAPIDLY lose power. If you choose to focus on one or the other, you will simply end up being a somewhat weaker arcane or divine caster with useless vestigial casting of the other type.

EX: at level 30, if focused on arcane you will have divine caster level 13, arcane caster level 27. Vs a straight CL30 arcane or divine.
Or vice versa... and you can bet your ass that all those CL13 cleric spells are not gonna be of ANY use against 30th level monsters.

If you made the crippling mistake of choosing to alternate between them. Than you are now a lvl10 wiz, lvl10 clr, lvl10 theurge... aka a CL20 wiz and CL20 cleric who can only cast 1 spell a turn between the two of them... while fighing ECL 30 opponents. Not to mention your familiar / companion / turning abilities are all crippled (since those do NOT gain levels from the theurge.. it explicitly says that a wiz3 clr3 theurge 10 has a familiar as a 3rd level wizard and turning abilities like a 3rd level cleric)

I think you should just get with your DM and design a real BASE class (not PRC) that gives dual progression.
This is like a paladin, it was simply a bad idea to just multiclass cleric + warrior to get a "paladin"... so they made a paladin base class... do the same for wiz + cleric or whatever combination it is you want.

Mongoose87
2009-09-20, 06:37 PM
You know what I don't get? The Epic Mystic Theurge says it increase spells know and spells per day, even though that's impossible, because it's Epic!

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-20, 06:41 PM
You know what I don't get? The Epic Mystic Theurge says it increase spells know and spells per day, even though that's impossible, because it's Epic!

No it isn't. A Wizard 5/Cleric 5/Mystic Theurge 10 still has five whole caster levels to catch up on for each side. He can still do that in epic. For example, if his 21st level is a level of Wizard, he gains two new spells in his spellbook of any level up to 8th, and gains a new spell slot for spell levels 7 and 8.

Mongoose87
2009-09-20, 06:43 PM
No it isn't. A Wizard 5/Cleric 5/Mystic Theurge 10 still has five whole caster levels to catch up on for each side. He can still do that in epic. For example, if his 21st level is a level of Wizard, he gains two new spells in his spellbook of any level up to 8th, and gains a new spell slot for spell levels 7 and 8.

Oh, does he just never get 9th level spells? I thought you couldn't get any more at all, after 20.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-20, 06:45 PM
...Where the heck are you getting this idea? Class progressions still function normally at epic, if you're multiclassed.

Do you think taking your first level of Sorcerer post level 20 would mean you couldn't cast Sorcerer spells?

If our Wizard 6/Cleric 5/Mystic Theurge 10 spent his 22nd level also on Wizard, he could gain two new spells in his spellbook, an extra 6th-level spell slot, and a brand new 9th-level spell slot, due to just having achieved Wizard level 17.

Diamondeye
2009-09-20, 06:56 PM
Mystic Theurge is fine as long as you understand it's not as powerful as it sounds. The real problem with the class is the entry requirements; it really should be "Ability to cast 1st level arcane and divine spells and ability to cast 2nd level arcane OR divine spells" so that you could enter at level 5. Eldritch knight has the same problem.

My recommendation if you want to play one would be Cleric 3 (or Druid)/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10/ Archmage 3, and then go back to MT at epic if you're going that far.

Alternately, if you can get the DM to agree to reduced requirements, I'd go cleric 1/wizard 3/ MT 10/archmage 5/cleric 1 again, then MT again at epic levels.

That's all assuming you prioritize arcane magic over divine. You're trading higher level spells for a lot MORE spells overall, and greater variety. It's going to take a while to catch back up in power, but if you can get the DM to agree to lower prereq... much less painful.

As a side not, I'd take cleric or druid at level 1 for the hitpoints.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-20, 06:58 PM
Assuming Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge:

- d6 Hit Dice (half way between)
- 1/2 BAB (sice it has no need to melee anymore)
- Good Fort and Will Saves (To balance the reduced BAB?)
- Eldritch Fusion:A Mystic Theurge's blending of two different casting types unlocks within him a unique ability.

1/day he cast two spells as a Full-Round Action. One of these spells must be from an Arcane casting class and the other from a Divine casting class. Both of these classes must have been advanced by at least one level of Mystic Theurge, although they need not have been advanced at the same level. Both spells must have a casting time of 1 Standard Action or less, and be at least one level lower than the maximum you can cast for that particular class.

He may do this 1/day at first level, and an additional time/day at every odd Mystic Theurge level. This has no effect on the number of Quickened Spells the Theurge may cast.
- At Levels 2 + 6 you gain Practised Spellcaster as a bonus feat. The feat must be taken for a class that you have advanced with at least one level or Mystic Theurge.
- Capstone Ability of some description.

Whaddaya think?
I would rename Eldritch Fusion, since Eldritch usually means Warlock. Using Pathfinder's name for a similar effect (Spell Synthesis) sounds decent. The Pathfinder Mystic Theurge, on the other hand, while it has the right ideas, limits them too much to be useful, much less actually solve the Mystic Theurge's problem.

The capstone is one of two things. One, you just make it a 15 level class with no capstone, so you can just keep progressing it, or two, do what I did with my Cerebremancer: after MT 10, any class that progresses Arcane casting also progresses Divine casting, and vice versa. You now get 17th level Arcane and Divine casting, plus you can have 4 levels of some Prestige Class - Archmage, Fatespinner, etc, would be appropriate.

taltamir
2009-09-20, 07:17 PM
No it isn't. A Wizard 5/Cleric 5/Mystic Theurge 10 still has five whole caster levels to catch up on for each side. He can still do that in epic. For example, if his 21st level is a level of Wizard, he gains two new spells in his spellbook of any level up to 8th, and gains a new spell slot for spell levels 7 and 8.

technically he doesn't need to, he uses transform, summon, or origin of species to create an arbitrarily large crew that gives him spell mitigation allowing him to reduce any arbitrarily high DC spell to DC0, costing 0gp, 0xp, and 1 day to research. And auto succeeding on cast. (take 10)
You cannot do ANYTHING useful with epic casting WITHOUT mitigation, and every one of the mitigation mechanics is exploitable as hell.
He can also use the arbitrarily large crew to form his own empire, create his own demiplane, etc etc etc... the entire epic book is as broken as possible.

Mongoose87
2009-09-20, 07:29 PM
...Where the heck are you getting this idea? Class progressions still function normally at epic, if you're multiclassed.

Do you think taking your first level of Sorcerer post level 20 would mean you couldn't cast Sorcerer spells?

If our Wizard 6/Cleric 5/Mystic Theurge 10 spent his 22nd level also on Wizard, he could gain two new spells in his spellbook, an extra 6th-level spell slot, and a brand new 9th-level spell slot, due to just having achieved Wizard level 17.

I don't know where, but, somehow, I got the idea that you couldn't gain spells in a casting class you started before 20 after you had hit 20.

Douglas
2009-09-20, 07:34 PM
Oh, does he just never get 9th level spells? I thought you couldn't get any more at all, after 20.
After class level 20, not character level 20. A wizard 10/fighter 10 who takes 10 more levels of wizard gains just as many spells per day and free spells for his spellbook as an identical character without the fighter levels would, ending up with the same spellcasting ability as a wizard 20/fighter 10. So long as an individual spellcasting progression has not yet hit its individual maximum (level 20 for base classes, 10 for most PrCs with their own spellcasting), that progression can still be advanced no matter what other classes and levels the character may have.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-20, 07:35 PM
technically he doesn't need to, he uses transform, summon, or origin of species to create an arbitrarily large crew that gives him spell mitigation allowing him to reduce any arbitrarily high DC spell to DC0, costing 0gp, 0xp, and 1 day to research. And auto succeeding on cast. (take 10)
You cannot do ANYTHING useful with epic casting WITHOUT mitigation, and every one of the mitigation mechanics is exploitable as hell.
He can also use the arbitrarily large crew to form his own empire, create his own demiplane, etc etc etc... the entire epic book is as broken as possible.

No, he still needs two more levels of Wizard to get Epic Spellcasting.

taltamir
2009-09-20, 07:39 PM
No, he still needs two more levels of Wizard to get Epic Spellcasting.

Only if he split apart his levels...
Level in this order:
3 cleric
3 wizard
10 theurge
4 wizard OR cleric.

You are now a CL 17 wizard OR cleric (with the other class being CL13), capable of casting 9th level spells... thus you qualify for epic casting on level 21.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-20, 07:42 PM
...Sure. But the example I gave was explicitely Wizard 5/Cleric 5/Mystic Theurge 10.

taltamir
2009-09-20, 07:50 PM
ouch, you are right I messed that one up... although technically, he could just decide to be a wiz5/clr5/theurge10/warrion infinity. and NEVER attain epic casting. Why would anyone WANT to shoot themselves in the foot that way?

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-20, 07:52 PM
Well if he decided to do that his Intelligence score wouldn't be high enough to cast epic spells anyway.

taltamir
2009-09-20, 07:53 PM
Well if he decided to do that his Intelligence score wouldn't be high enough to cast epic spells anyway.

HA! nice..

Another problem with theurge is... once you are epic casting, you are a god. It is a goal, you need to reach it ASAP.
As a theurge you are losing power per level from 4 through 6, you are behind from 7 through 20, and if you properly focused those last 3 level ups, you get epic casting, and epic casting is not just game breaking, it is 100% Dependant on your knowledge and spellcraft skills and have NOTHING to do with caster level. So you spend 16/20 = 80% of your career being weaker than a straight caster only to finally become equal to them with no benefit at all...
and the higher levels take longer to achieve, so realistically, much higher than 80%

Of course, this is completely different if your DM simply bans the entire epic spellcasting BS and makes his own homebrew system

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-20, 07:55 PM
Yes, but a Wizard/Cleric with the Animal domain/Mystic Theurge will have three times the epic spell slots of a single-classed Wizard.

taltamir
2009-09-20, 07:58 PM
Yes, but a Wizard/Cleric with the Animal domain/Mystic Theurge will have three times the epic spell slots of a single-classed Wizard.

irrelevant, only a fool will use them in battle. early on you use 1 spell every several weeks to perma create /transform / summon /whatever a creature with spells to act as a mitigating factor. When you finally have enough of them to cast more than one a day, you have an entire army of high level casters, and your epic spells focus more towards grand creation...

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-20, 08:00 PM
Who said anything about using them in combat? If you have more spell slots, you can get that army of minions faster.

Godskook
2009-09-20, 08:03 PM
irrelevant

No it isn't. Any 'scheme' for epic spell mitigation is only accelerated by the MT's bonuses. There's also no domain choice required, Yuki.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-20, 08:04 PM
Well, no, as Knowledge (any) is on the Wizard class skill list. The domain just makes it slightly cheaper. And more thematic.

taltamir
2009-09-20, 08:11 PM
No it isn't. Any 'scheme' for epic spell mitigation is only accelerated by the MT's bonuses. There's also no domain choice required, Yuki.

what bonuses... they are strictly 1 slot per 10 knowledge levels.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-20, 08:13 PM
what bonuses... they are strictly 1 slot per 10 knowledge levels.

The Wizard side gives him one slot per 10 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana).

The Cleric side gives him one slot per 10 ranks in Knowledge (Religion) and Knowledge (Nature).

These slots explicitely stack.