PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Red Wizard



weenie
2009-09-19, 05:47 AM
I was looking at the Red Wizard Prc and I must say it looks pretty good. But of course as with everything else I felt this sudden urge to break it as hard as possible.

So the first thing I noticed was that to enter the Prc you must lose an additional school of magic. Now this is a bit of a hit for a wizard, but the text says, that you can still cast spell that you knew before you became a Red Wizard. So you could write all the good spells from a school into your spellbook and then ban that school, and be able to cast those spells when you reach the right level even though they're from a prohibited school and thus end up losing completely nothing.

The second thing that struck me as breakable is circle magic. If you have a focused specialist cohort, heightening spells to spell lvl 20(thus getting them at least a +10 to their save DCs) is easy as pie, but what would be even more fun is if you could somehow get to use Persist spell, or other metamagic feats in this way. and this is where i need your help, fellow playgrounders. Do you know of any way to use other metamagic feats with circle magic? I get the feeling that this would make incantatrixes around the world cry.. :smallbiggrin:

Myou
2009-09-19, 06:13 AM
You can't learn spells higher than your maximum spell level.

weenie
2009-09-19, 06:56 AM
You can't learn spells higher than your maximum spell level.

Are you sure? I think you can learn any spell you want as a wizard, as long as you make the spellcraft check to write it in your spellbook and have a high enough int. You can't cast them, but as I see it you can learn them. Or did I miss something?

Melamoto
2009-09-19, 07:01 AM
Sadly enough, by RAW, that is correct. You can simply learn all of the spells and then cast them later, since Wizards don't have any rules about learning spells other than "It costs X much to write them in, requires an X spellcraft check and you must have X intelligence". There's nothing more to it.

Myou
2009-09-19, 07:11 AM
Are you sure? I think you can learn any spell you want as a wizard, as long as you make the spellcraft check to write it in your spellbook and have a high enough int. You can't cast them, but as I see it you can learn them. Or did I miss something?

Well, I thought that was the rule, but I can't find it in the PHB. I'm not sure now.

Vangor
2009-09-19, 08:14 AM
The only limitation included in the PHB is on Spells Gained at a New Level on Pg 179, which "must be of spell levels she can cast." Nothing appears to restrict scribing spells of greater level except for the increasing Spellcraft DC of 15+Spell's Level, which should be rather negligible; at level 1 a decent Wizard should possess a Spellcraft of 4 Ranks+2 Knowledge:Arcana Synergy+3 Intelligence, meaning above average success on spells 21,000 exp away. Each level gains a slightly greater success rate, too, but from level one you may potentially scribe in a Black Blade of Disaster on a 15 or greater, and at minimum entry level before Red Wizard, five, you should have 8 Ranks+2 Synergy+3 Intelligence+2 Fox's Cunning for success on a 9 without including any other bonuses.

Just need to make checks each level since you cannot make a new Spellcraft check without gaining an additional rank in Spellcraft.

As for Circle Magic, I believe the problem would be only Heighten, Empower, and Maximize can only be applied without regard for the restrictions on increased effective spell slot. Other metamagics would be applied regular, but the wording is rather awkward in my FRCS.

Jair Barik
2009-09-19, 08:42 AM
Inevitably though if you were to do that you would have to invest in spellbook protection. Otherwise the next time your DM drops you into a vat of acid or a pool of lava you may have to say bye bye to your spellbook. You could leave at home but then it will be stolen by passing thieves. That sort of abuse will likely cause a response by your DM in a fashion like this

Sliver
2009-09-19, 08:52 AM
The only limitation included in the PHB is on Spells Gained at a New Level on Pg 179, which "must be of spell levels she can cast." Nothing appears to restrict scribing spells of greater level except for the increasing Spellcraft DC of 15+Spell's Level, which should be rather negligible; at level 1 a decent Wizard should possess a Spellcraft of 4 Ranks+2 Knowledge:Arcana Synergy+3 Intelligence, meaning above average success on spells 21,000 exp away. Each level gains a slightly greater success rate, too, but from level one you may potentially scribe in a Black Blade of Disaster on a 15 or greater, and at minimum entry level before Red Wizard, five, you should have 8 Ranks+2 Synergy+3 Intelligence+2 Fox's Cunning for success on a 9 without including any other bonuses.

You need 5 ranks for the bonus, so level 2..

Under "spells" in the wizard class description it says you have to have minimum of 10+spell level INT to learn, prepare or cast a spell, but I didn't find anything else related..

jiriku
2009-09-19, 09:41 AM
Your biggest restriction on picking up higher level spells is more likely WBL. If you're planning to move into Red Wizard at L6, your WBL at that point is going to be something less than 13,000g. With a "typical" copying fee of spell level x 50g and a copying cost of spell level x 100g, copying even a solid selection of 4th and 5th level spells could break you financially. Still, it is a nice way to get into 4th level spells. I wish I'd thought to do that for my current red wizard character - I barred illusion, and I'm sorely missing greater invisibility.

Circle magic is much more exploitable. In hindsight, WotC really should have limited circle magic to once per day.

If you keep all your followers at your base and spend two teleports/plane shifts per day to visit them during your adventures, you can benefit from giving them the sanctum spell feat, which will get you an additional +1 bonus level per participant. If your cohort is also a red wizard, you can alternate circle magic sessions with him until the group runs out of high-level spell slots. Each session, heighten a spell up to the best level you can get, then in the following session, sacrifice that spell to give bonus levels to the other. In the final session, you get beacoup bonus spell slots for fun and profit.

Vangor
2009-09-19, 09:48 AM
You need 5 ranks for the bonus, so level 2..

Under "spells" in the wizard class description it says you have to have minimum of 10+spell level INT to learn, prepare or cast a spell, but I didn't find anything else related..

Good points. Was trying to show about how simple this would be and forgot about that (we have a 4 rank houserule for synergy to allow this for first level). You'll notice as well I included a +3 Intelligence modifier which meant a maximum of 6th or 7th level spells, though a Gray Elf or similar with an natural 20 in Intelligence has the same chance as previously discussed. A more significant barrier is strictly gaining the scroll or a spellbook with this written in.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 10:35 AM
I've been working with circle magic builds for the last three days now, and so far the top end of them involved both Incantatrix and Shadowcraft Mage (non-racial version in the adaptation section), with Halruuan Elder granting the ability in the first place. I'm currently working on making a loomlord circle leader (SCM/War Weaver/HalEld or Red Wiz), to see how high I can crank up the action economy abuse goodness of the Eldritch Tapestry.

Eldariel
2009-09-19, 11:20 AM
Inevitably though if you were to do that you would have to invest in spellbook protection. Otherwise the next time your DM drops you into a vat of acid or a pool of lava you may have to say bye bye to your spellbook. You could leave at home but then it will be stolen by passing thieves. That sort of abuse will likely cause a response by your DM in a fashion like this

Boccob's Blessed Book, a dimensional pocket, some protective Wards, sufficient application of Teleport/Explosive Runes/whatever and it's pretty safe.

Killerloop
2009-09-21, 05:33 AM
The best way IMHO is to adjust your "circle magic abuse" to the level of the campagn or theme.

Even with two level 1 red wizard which do circle magic for you naked you get like 30 circle magic levels, which is more than enough to make you powerful, VERY powerful until epic level things come screaming vengeance.

I'm going to play a campaign with a level 12 wizard/red wizard and you know what? I will be very happy if the DM will let me use 2 apprentices of the minimum level :)

bosssmiley
2009-09-21, 09:36 AM
So the first thing I noticed was that to enter the PrC you must lose an additional school of magic. Now this is a bit of a hit for a wizard, but the text says, that you can still cast spell that you knew before you became a Red Wizard. So you could write all the good spells from a school into your spellbook and then ban that school, and be able to cast those spells when you reach the right level even though they're from a prohibited school and thus end up losing completely nothing.

By RAW, maybe. But that just means the RAW is badly worded and rich in loopholes.

Banned school means banned school. As in, you don't get to play with these toys no more. That is a sacrifice you made in return for circle cheese power. :smallannoyed:


The second thing that struck me as breakable is circle magic. If you have a focused specialist cohort, heightening spells to spell lvl 20(thus getting them at least a +10 to their save DCs) is easy as pie, but what would be even more fun is if you could somehow get to use Persist spell, or other metamagic feats in this way. and this is where I need your help, fellow playgrounders. Do you know of any way to use other metamagic feats with circle magic? I get the feeling that this would make incantatrixes around the world cry.. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, circle magic is cheesy broken Leadership feat abuse crap. It should really die in a fire for turning D&D magic into an exercise in Manpower and Management. I mean, it's not like we haven't had 4-5 attempts at super spells already (Dark Sun, Netheril, Birthright, quest spells/true dweomers, Epic Level Joke Book, Eberron).

Red Wizard was NPC villain-only in pre-3E days, and that's how it should have stayed. But then what else do you expect from FR, the setting that brought us circle magic, mythals, two separate versions of the Weave, Netheril and all the crap that went with it, Alphatia Halruaa, Chosen of Mystra, and a load of other caster fap?

jiriku
2009-09-21, 09:46 AM
Killerloop is right about in-game balancing. In my current game, I have throttled back my circle magic to a single session granting me typically 4-6 bonus levels to work with (my cohort is a cleric). Even this is quite helpful, as I can (for instance) devote 4 levels to increasing my caster level, which effectively provides me with the spell penetration and greater spell penetration feats for free, gives me 2-4 bonus dice on damage-dealing spells, increases my ranges by 10%, and lets me teleport an extra party member. That's pretty handy, and since my DM is already struggling to make challenging encounters for us as-is, any further optimization on my part would simply be a killjoy.

Godskook
2009-09-21, 09:47 AM
Your biggest restriction on picking up higher level spells is more likely WBL. If you're planning to move into Red Wizard at L6

The answer to this is to plan on Red Wizard from a L8 position, Having just spent 2 levels in Geometer for a lovely class feature which eases the WBL issues a lot. That 9th level spell you're wanting to get? Costs 550 to get it, as opposed to 1350, not to mention the WBL increase you got from leveling twice.