Just how strong is Thog?

[golentan]

I did a search for thog threads, and didn't find anything. I don't have enough solid numbers to put this in Class and Level Geekery, so here we go:

Rereading the archives recently, I noticed some stuff.

Thog never shows damage graphics. Thog has never been defeated through force of arms, only intimidation, promises of ice cream, and blowing a will save. Thog 3 hit KOs a PC with an improvised weapon.

Thog has the rest of the guild terrified of what he can do, to the point that they change timetables on their plans based on their ability to keep him from rampaging. They try to keep him far away except when something needs to die, at which point? Thog is the first response to "it needs to die quickly, and without subtlety. Thog can make an at least DC 25 break check (iron bars in prison, I'm going to say he massively overachieved there based on the graphic) in what: a round or two? Admittedly, he was raging then and had elan's help, but even so...

And for a barbarian build raging doesn't seem to be essential to his victories. Maybe he just doesn't care. Or maybe he's trying to conserve uses of class features for actual threats. He kills pretty much everything he's trying to kill while his mind is elsewhere, and in one or two hits.

I know roy "made him retreat" in that first battle, but he did one hit. A hit that had no visible effect but make thog go "Ouch." Thog never bothered hitting back, and nale swapped them out then.

...

Is thog possibly epic level? A stupid, petulant, childish epic level character? Is he simply the possessor of d12 hit dice, a massive strength and con, and some good luck? Or am I reading too much into things?

[Zerter]

Doh. Thog is epic level! how did we not see that before o_O.

[Kish]

I did a search for thog threads, and didn't find anything. I don't have enough solid numbers to put this in Class and Level Geekery, so here we go:

Rereading the archives recently, I noticed some stuff.

Thog never shows damage graphics. Thog has never been defeated through force of arms, only intimidation, promises of ice cream, and blowing a will save. Thog 3 hit KOs a PC with an improvised weapon.

Thog has the rest of the guild terrified of what he can do, to the point that they change timetables on their plans based on their ability to keep him from rampaging. They try to keep him far away except when something needs to die, at which point? Thog is the first response to "it needs to die quickly, and without subtlety. Thog can make an at least DC 25 break check (iron bars in prison, I'm going to say he massively overachieved there based on the graphic) in what: a round or two? Admittedly, he was raging then and had elan's help, but even so...

...it was a Hulk joke.

Epic-level barbarians don't have catastrophically bad Will saves. Durkon Held Thog without even bothering to glance at him. Thog, at least, thought he was losing his fight with Roy. I'm sure Elan and Haley would contemplate the prospect of Roy randomly attacking them with great trepidation. So, yes, I'm pretty sure Thog is <~Roy's level.

[Ya Ta Hey!]

Thog is strong enough to support the full weight of his narrative role. :smallsmile:

[DOOMBOT9000]

A stupid, petulant, childish epic level character?
Without the stupid, that could easily be describing Xykon too.

[Olorin Maia]

exchange stupid for bored, and it can describe Xykon as well.

[King of Nowhere]

A half-orc barbarian of that level can easily have +8 to str modifier when raging, even without magic items. With those, he can go further. No need for epic levels.

[Kumo]

I'm rereading OoTS, and there actually IS a point where Thog is beaten through force of arms. It isn't shown directly, but when Nale kidnaps Julia, Haley and Roy subdue him enough (off panel) so that he chooses to go quietly.

There is also a point where Thog switches places with Nale because both were afraid they couldn't finish off their respective adversaries during their first encounter with the Order.

It's an interesting question, though. Half-Orcs get plus 2 to strength, and assuming he got an 18 in his dice rolls, he started out with 20 strength. It's possible he also spent every other stat point you get when you level up enough on the same stat. 20+ strength (that's at least +5) plus Bard song, plus Barbarian rage ability, plus whatever bonus you get to strength because you're really mad... Yeah, not surprising he can break bars.

I think it should also be noted, though, that while the world portrays everything it does to sound or look like a homebrew campaign setting, it's still a webcomic. Drama plays a big role in what happens, and ripping a cage to bits is a lot more dramatic than thog yelling "THOG SMASH PUNY PRISON" and then failing to break the bar.

Granted, it'd be funny, but that would still leave them with a need to get out, and Elan had already said he'd tried everything else he could think of, and Thog's entire plan probably was break out with the power of rage.

[golentan]

I'm rereading OoTS, and there actually IS a point where Thog is beaten through force of arms. It isn't shown directly, but when Nale kidnaps Julia, Haley and Roy subdue him enough (off panel) so that he chooses to go quietly.

Nah, that was under orders to surrender. With promises of ice cream, and rescue. If you read the prison scenes, he says as much. And still no battle damage graphics.

(plus, no magic items in prison. That was one of the problems they had to overcome. Bardic music can't grant a strength bonus in core, just skill checks, so figure +8 modifier when raging and he should still take multiple rounds if we're going by expected outcome)

Like I said, I may be reading too much into stuff, and it is a narrative first as you've said, but it's the little stuff that adds up over the narrative that makes me wonder.

[Meridian]

Is it just me, but when you think of Thog, especially his prison escape.. doesn't he remind you of Minsc?

GO FOR THE EYES, BOO! GO FOR THE EYES!

[Threeshades]

Imagining thog was 10th level starting with rolling ort buying 18 for STR +2 for being a half ork, +2 for being past level 8 and +4 for raging. Comes up to Str 26, which is a +8 modifier. enough for smashing puny prison!

[Forbiddenwar]

he is as strong as the plot and jokes allow. I know that is a cop out answer, but not even Rich knows how strong Thog is.
That being said, Thog appears to have a decnt Str. Without Magic and raging He probably has a 24 Str score, 30 or more with raging and magic.
According to the strip he does take a few rounds to bust the bars.

[Hardcore]

Ah yes, Minsc and BOO! Who can forget about that maniac and his space hamster:)
I bet Thog is stronger however.

[Tass]

As you can se here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0121.html) he can Power Attack for 1d12+567 damage.

If his BAB is at most 10 then that means that his strength modifier is at least 547, giving him a strength of at least 1104. :smallamused:

[FujinAkari]

As you can se here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0121.html) he can Power Attack for 1d12+567 damage.

If his BAB is at most 10 then that means that his strength modifier is at least 547, giving him a strength of at least 1104. :smallamused:

Any argument based on Thog's mathematical acumen is an argument doomed to failure :P

[Morquard]

Any argument based on Thog's mathematical acumen is an argument doomed to failure :P

Not to mention it was Elan who told us this panel. So Elan's mathematical acumen trying to depict thog's mathematical acumen, is doomed for an epic fail. :)

[ericgrau]

An iron wall has a DC 30 strength check to break. An iron door has a DC 28 strength check. Iron bars are probably similar, maybe a little lower. He may retry each round and eventually get a 20. So he needs a rage-boosted strength mod of around 8-10, putting his rage strength at 26-30. Maybe a little less if bars are easier. Maybe a little more if his strength was overkill. Assuming he was level 11+ at the time of the jail escape, his strength without rage would be 20-24. Again maybe a little more or less. That's around what half-orc character strength tends to be.

Elan's inspire competence doesn't actually boost ability checks, btw. He just uses it on everything anyway.

[JaxGaret]

am I reading too much into things?

Probably. It's an interesting theory, but it's more likely that he's simply the same level as the others in the Order and LG (which is pretty high level, mind you), with a very high Str and Con, and perhaps a Toughness feat or three on top of it, maybe even a feat that boosts Str ability checks.

You never know.

[Zolkabro]

Allow me to just say here:

THOG IS AWESOME!!!

[Kumo]

Nah, that was under orders to surrender. With promises of ice cream, and rescue. If you read the prison scenes, he says as much. And still no battle damage graphics.

(plus, no magic items in prison. That was one of the problems they had to overcome. Bardic music can't grant a strength bonus in core, just skill checks, so figure +8 modifier when raging and he should still take multiple rounds if we're going by expected outcome)

Like I said, I may be reading too much into stuff, and it is a narrative first as you've said, but it's the little stuff that adds up over the narrative that makes me wonder.Yes, but if you define a round as a skill check (for spell durations it's 6 seconds, if i remember right) Thog tried at least once in each panel, starting with the one where Elan says that only Thog can save Nale. That's four or five checks.

@Tass: Considering how everything else in this comic plays out, it's possible.

[Liwen]

probably has been suggested before, but could the MitD....

[Flarp]

I'm rereading OoTS, and there actually IS a point where Thog is beaten through force of arms. It isn't shown directly, but when Nale kidnaps Julia, Haley and Roy subdue him enough (off panel) so that he chooses to go quietly.

There is also a point where Thog switches places with Nale because both were afraid they couldn't finish off their respective adversaries during their first encounter with the Order.

It's an interesting question, though. Half-Orcs get plus 2 to strength, and assuming he got an 18 in his dice rolls, he started out with 20 strength. It's possible he also spent every other stat point you get when you level up enough on the same stat. 20+ strength (that's at least +5) plus Bard song, plus Barbarian rage ability, plus whatever bonus you get to strength because you're really mad... Yeah, not surprising he can break bars.

I think it should also be noted, though, that while the world portrays everything it does to sound or look like a homebrew campaign setting, it's still a webcomic. Drama plays a big role in what happens, and ripping a cage to bits is a lot more dramatic than thog yelling "THOG SMASH PUNY PRISON" and then failing to break the bar.

Granted, it'd be funny, but that would still leave them with a need to get out, and Elan had already said he'd tried everything else he could think of, and Thog's entire plan probably was break out with the power of rage.

I could imagine that quite easily, and funnily too.

:thog: THOG SMASH PUNY PRISON!
*fail*
:elan: Take, take, take 20 on the puny prison!
*cutaway to long distance shot of the prison*
:thog: THOG SMASH PUNY PRISON!
:thog: THOG SMASH PUNY PRISON!
Ad nauseam.

[Stormthorn]

I could imagine that quite easily, and funnily too.

:thog: THOG SMASH PUNY PRISON!
*fail*
:elan: Take, take, take 20 on the puny prison!
*cutaway to long distance shot of the prison*
:thog: THOG SMASH PUNY PRISON!
:thog: THOG SMASH PUNY PRISON!
Ad nauseam.

I dont think 20 is an auto-sucess in skill checks. Otherwise i could Jump to the moon.


Not to mention it was Elan who told us this panel. So Elan's mathematical acumen trying to depict thog's mathematical acumen, is doomed for an epic fail. :)

Perhaps if his/their ability to do math is low enough it will glitch like in old video games and wrap around to a very high number.

Also, in that panel, he might just be using a +560 axe.

[Acero]

he might just be using a +560 axe.

where can i get 1 of those?

[Sewblon]

I would put it at 25-26. I had this same discussion but about Xykon, and it is impossible to distinguish the effects of the character's abilities from the power of plot.

[rangermania]

Not to mention it was Elan who told us this panel. So Elan's mathematical acumen trying to depict thog's mathematical acumen, is doomed for an epic fail. :)

It was a flashback. Nothing told by Elan... But still I agree to your epic fail proposition...

[Katana_Geldar]

I dont think 20 is an auto-sucess in skill checks. Otherwise i could Jump to the moon.



Perhaps if his/their ability to do math is low enough it will glitch like in old video games and wrap around to a very high number.

Also, in that panel, he might just be using a +560 axe.

I thought with most skills you could take 20 as long as you are uninterrupted. There are some you can't though.

[t_catt11]

Thog has the strength of plot. Nothing more, nothing less.

Also, note that the +567 was in a reader email strip, where the characters were clearly breaking the fourth wall. Pretty clear that was not canon, it was filler. (I realize that Tass was almost certainly aware of it, but I could see this coming up as gospel somewhere on the forums)

[Tass]

Thog has the strength of plot. Nothing more, nothing less.

Also, note that the +567 was in a reader email strip, where the characters were clearly breaking the fourth wall. Pretty clear that was not canon, it was filler. (I realize that Tass was almost certainly aware of it, but I could see this coming up as gospel somewhere on the forums)

He he. Thanks for that parenthesis good sir (althoguh I could do without the "almost") :)

I also liked the Thogs and Elans mathematical acumen arguments. I dont agree that it is a flashback though (on the contrary, its a joke).

[Kupi]

I thought with most skills you could take 20 as long as you are uninterrupted. There are some you can't though.

What Stormthorn is saying is that, while you can Take 20, all that means is you automatically get a 20-- the best possible roll. But unlike with melee attacks, getting a 20 as your roll doesn't mean an automatic success; it just means you got a 20 on your roll. If 20 plus whatever your modifiers are still can't beat the skill DC, you can't do it, period. Thus you can't Take 20 on a Jump check to the moon-- the skill DC is completely out of your league.

[Bagelz]

1- lets not forget that a barbarian will have DR 2/- at level 10, 3/- at 13 so not showing damage could have been a really bad damage roll by roy (roll 1, +4 for str -3dr ~2damage, not bloody but an ouch).

so epic - probably not.

as for +damages lets a assume hes 5barb/2fighter/5 frenzied berserker (-12attack +24 dmg on normal power attack)
remember 1.5*str for twohanded weapons, level 5 frenzied berserker is 3x instead of 2x on power attack (+36) give him a magic axe +3 (comic 347),weapon specializtion/greater weapon spec (+4) we know he can used improvised weapons, power lunge from sword and fist lets you double your str mod if charging, Leap attack triples (2handed) your power attack dmg when charging (108 dmg), and lets give him another +2 from a buff (bardsong, cleric bless, ect)
if the defender counts as helpless you count it as a crit (as in coup de grace) or the power critical feat once a day and greataxes are x3 crit (so it should have been 1d12*3 + whatever but we'll ignore that)

if he had a few levels of ranger i could get more redikculous with feats, or if he was mounted, but neither of those seem likely, so we'll go with this

567 = 3*(1.5*2*str + 3 + 4 + 108 + 2) = 9*str + 351
Str = +24 mod or a str of 58... much less than 1100

not quite there but very close, +4 str for rage/ +6 frenzy +4 for buff (bulls str or magic item), +8 if thog thought his target was a door (destructive rage) if we start with str of 22-24 then we have 44-46 str.

so who can get thog that extra 12 str? (or extra 63 dmg).

[woodenbandman]

Clearly Thog has taken Destructive Rage. Also note when thog said that Fighter 5 (or 3) stupid level. thog no take. He probably took the Dungeoncrasher substitution level for another +5 to break objects. So already he has like +13 to breaking objects, as well as probably a strength of base 23 (assuming he's 12th level) and probably items of +Strength and Rage. Heck he might even have Frenzy. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that his total bonus to breaking down doors is +20 or higher. Not to mention his ungodly power attack.