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sonofzeal
2009-09-19, 04:34 PM
Okay, a level 21 Wizard with Epic Spellcasting breaks the game. Everyone says so, so it must be true. The question is, how? Is he all that much more powerful than a level 20 Wizard without?

Here's where the challenge comes in. By the CR/EL rules, a level 22 wizard should be a match for two level 20 wizards. Since the purpose of the challenge is to prove that Epic Spellcasting is borked, the challenge needs to be harder than that. Your level 21 Epic Wizard has to take on three non-epic Wizards, and win, to successfully demonstrate the bork'dness of Epic Spellcasting.





Rules:

- You get one 28 point buy ECL 21 Wizard, who must have taken "Epic Spellcasting"

- Your opponents are three 28 point buy ECL 20 Wizards, who will use roughly comparable optimization as you, but will function more or less independently of eachother. If you don't use Celerity+Timestop, they don't either. They are not your lesser clones, but they will let you set the bar for what sort of munchkinry can be pulled.

- PrC's are allowed, but discouraged; your opponents will remain pure-Wizard if you do.

- All four of you have 10,000 spare xp to use for crafting and/or spellcasting.

- You can take as much time to prepare as you want, but your opponents get the same, and everyone is equally aware when "combat" is going to begin.

- All four of you start with WBL gear and no allies. Gaining allies through various magical means is allowed, but might piss of people who would be reasonably pissed off by that. For example, chain-gating Solars will bring in their patron deities against you.

- No fortresses/deathtraps. You can choose the field of battle, but they get equal time to prepare there as you.

- You must use Epic Spellcasting as part of your victory.

- All official 3.5 books allowed. Un-updated 3.0 material allowed only on a case-by-case basis.

- Rules may be added or clarified later. Any changes will be added to the thread.




Scoring:

- Victory will be defined as defeating (killing or rendering harmless) all three opponents while remaining undefeated (alive and dangerous) yourself.

- Partial victory will be defined as defeating at least two of the opponents, or defeating all three but losing Epic Spellcasting in the process (due to xp drain or other factors). This may also cover victory under certain limited restrictions (winning if they attack in serial rather than in tandem; using unique items such as artifacts; winning primarily through non-epic advantages; dying shortly after the challenge ends as a direct result of actions taken). You can also attain a Partial Victory by winning at level 22 instead.



Winners:

Full Victory
Eldariel
Kelpstrand


Partial Victory
quick_comment

(edit) Just saying something's possible doesn't count unless you actually stat it out and show that it's reasonably attainable.

mostlyharmful
2009-09-19, 04:41 PM
research an epic spell that makes a spellcasting minion, use time or xp mitigators to reduce the cost in time, gp and xp to 0. use your new minion to start creating other minions, no angry gods with stolen solars involved. once you get recursive spellcasting minions with total loyalty there's not much else you need to do before giving yourself 21+ divine ranks and all the hot girlz.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-19, 04:46 PM
Call (do not summon) spellcasting monster of your choice.

Craft an epic spell that uses all of said spellcasting monster's highest spell slots. This spell calls as many of said spellcasting monster as you can reasonably manage while still mitigating the XP and gold cost to zero.

Repeat this process an arbitrary number of times.

Craft an epic spell that disposes of your enemies with an arbitrarily high save DC using your arbitrary number of called spellcasting monsters.

Win.

sonofzeal
2009-09-19, 04:48 PM
Please actually stat out the Epic Spell you're trying to research. Include full specification on Seeds, gp/xp costs, Spellcraft DC, etc. Make sure your Wizard can actually reasonably cast it.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-19, 04:51 PM
Why? To prove that an epic spellcasting can totally game the system to create arbitrarily powerful spells?

Everyone already knows that.

Tavar
2009-09-19, 04:51 PM
Please actually stat out the Epic Spell you're trying to research. Include full specification on Seeds, gp/xp costs, Spellcraft DC, etc. Make sure your Wizard can actually reasonably cast it.

You realize that, given no time constraints, the Wizard can cast a spell of arbitrarily high Spellcraft, simply by using the calling trick? I believe one spell actually had a Spellcraft cost(pre-mitigation) of millions.

sonofzeal
2009-09-19, 04:55 PM
You realize that, given no time constraints, the Wizard can cast a spell of arbitrarily high Spellcraft, simply by using the calling trick? I believe one spell actually had a Spellcraft cost(pre-mitigation) of millions.
If you're referring to chain-gating Solars, that's already addressed. If you're referring to something else, please elaborate.

olentu
2009-09-19, 05:01 PM
Hmm could one create a personal demiplane made out of coldfire or am I remembering the spells incorrectly.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-19, 05:02 PM
Hmm could one create a personal demiplane made out of coldfire or am I remembering the spells incorrectly.

Yes. Yes you could.

You can also use epic spells to do such fun things as, say, creating spellcasting minions, negating the whole "angry god" scenario.


Basically, what we're getting at here is that you really need to put some time constraints on this thing. If given an arbitrary amount of time to prepare, the epic wizard really can't lose. Ever.

Meek
2009-09-19, 05:08 PM
I don't see why calling in the one or two Solars that it would take to give up enough 8th and 9th level spells to drastically reduce the DC of the spell you're trying to create would piss off a God. Every 9th/8th level spell a Solar contributes is like, 15 or 17? or so off the Spell DC.

Each Solar has 5 level 9 spells and 5 level 8 spells. If they burn all of them, that's like -150ish to the Spell DC. From ONE Solar.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-19, 05:11 PM
Yes, but it's really more fun to call several dozen so your spellcraft DC before mitigation can be somewhere in the tens of thousands.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 05:12 PM
You realize that, given no time constraints, the Wizard can cast a spell of arbitrarily high Spellcraft, simply by using the calling trick? I believe one spell actually had a Spellcraft cost(pre-mitigation) of millions.

A properly optimized wizard with access to the right PrC's can easily trounce a Wizard 21, or even a Wizard 24. At Character Level 20. But the factor is superior use of Epic Spellcasting, so if Mr. Twink encounters Mr. Twink +4 levels, all that really happens is the planet blows up, since neither will be able to affect the other. And this is with less than a day of time constraint at this level. By the way, don't forget that one Mythal can elevate one to divinity given enough prevalent and vanguard effects, and that's not to mention that you can use a Major Effect to mimic any item or power there is. Miracle at will? Can it be built as an item? Yes, please.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-19, 05:14 PM
Elan Wizard with Genesis Plane:

Step 1, Research Spell that creates single Coutal Ally permanently, mitigate to DC 0, 0 XP.
Step 2: Cast spell hundreds of times.
Step 3: Using spells from Coutals, Mitigate new spell to call 10 Solars.
Step 4: Cast Spell hundreds of times.
Step 5: Use Arbitrarily Large Solar and Coutal Army to mitigate the Conjure seed used to create a creature:

"The conjure seed can be used in conjunction with the life and fortify seeds for an epic spell that creates an entirely new creature, if made permanent. To give a creature spell-like abilities, apply other epic seeds to the epic spell that replicate the desired ability. To give the creature a supernatural or extraordinary ability rather than a spell-like ability, double the cost of the relevant seed. Remember that two doublings equals a tripling, and so forth. To give a creature Hit Dice, use the fortify seed. Each 5 hit points granted to the creature gives it an additional 1 HD. Once successfully created, the new creature will breed true."

Giving it:

Arbitrarily large number of HD.
Extraordinary Mind switch ability (So that it will switch minds with you).
Extraordinary Armor bonus of + AN
Extraordinary Deflection bonus of + AN
Extraordinary immunity to Divinations, and Permanent Greater Invis.
Extraordinary ANd6 damage with Destroy Seed at will.
Extraordinary Divinations with Forsee seed at will.
Extraordinary +AN enhancement bonuses to all stats and saves, and SR AN.
Extraordinary Heal itself for AN damage.
Extraordinary Reflect attacks (AN per round melee or ranged, and AN number of spells, including epic, but also 1-9, and even area spells)
Extraordinary True Seeing that auto Pierces all non epic spells.
Extraordinary Ward against all spells level 1-10. (10 means Epic).

Elan wins.

Now, you could do something merely game breakingly awesome like not use the Conjure seed to create your new vessel, but instead just give your self +500 to all stats, +500 to all saves, +500 deflection bonus to AC, Ward against all spells 1-10, and SR 500, DR 500/Epic, Energy Resistance 500 to all elements.

And then just use your regular Wizard casting, or heck, melee attacks, to kill things while you remain invulnerable against your non Epic opponents. But Conjure Seed is more fun.

EDIT: All spells cost 0 XP and 0 GP and DC 0 spellcraft. Because of Coutal and Solar contribution.

The first spell to call a Coutal to obey me for a permanent duration is mitigated to 0 by increasing casting time.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-19, 05:16 PM
A properly optimized wizard with access to the right PrC's can easily trounce a Wizard 21, or even a Wizard 24. At Character Level 20. But the factor is superior use of Epic Spellcasting, so if Mr. Twink encounters Mr. Twink +4 levels, all that really happens is the planet blows up, since neither will be able to affect the other. And this is with less than a day of time constraint at this level. By the way, don't forget that one Mythal can elevate one to divinity given enough prevalent and vanguard effects, and that's not to mention that you can use a Major Effect to mimic any item or power there is. Miracle at will? Can it be built as an item? Yes, please.

But leve 20 wizards don't have Epic Spellcasting.

The hint here is that a level 20 character is not Epic. You don't become Epic until level 21.

Eldariel
2009-09-19, 05:18 PM
If we don't want to use assistants, we can also just figure out the Spellcraft DC we can make:
-We can have 24 ranks
-+2 from K: Arcana synergy
-~+14 Intelligence as a base (more if we're truly utilizing Polymorph Any Object, but that is probably excessive)
-+15 Divine Insight
-+20 Guidance of the Avatar (assuming no custom items)
-some miscellaneous bonuses.

The above add up to about +65 or so, so we can expect to hit ~DC 75 consistently. We can also easily get -42 by taking 42d6 Backlash Damage (averages 147; simple Con 24 is gonna get us by that) and for permanent spells, -220 from casting time (which is made quite trivial by Genesis and fast time progression planes). All we need are ways to consistently cast Heal, such as Shapechange into Planetar & preparing it.

So we can quite easily generate DC 120 boost spells without any XP cost or such, and actual permanent spells of DC ~350 without much pain (note that XP costs are less painful on permanent spells for obvious reasons; not using Thought Bottles here).


DC120 allows generating a spell that grants us...+16 Insight to Int, for example. We can then generate a spell that also gives us +20...Luck to Int. These have to be cast daily due to the stupid stipulation preventing permanencying non-Inherent bonuses. Anyways, this gives us some extra for our DCs, though not much. The bigger effect is that if a non-epic Wizard is targeted by our non-epic SoD effects, they will fail their saves. We'll also have lots of dailies.

Permanent Ward vs. all spells would be a bit too expensive to generate. However, you can Ward yourself vs. Orbs, Maw of Chaos, Anti-Magic Field, Disjunction, Greater Dispel Magic & other Dispel-magic and overall, things which might prove detrimental to your health. You can also generate a few Contingencies, all these permanent mind you, to better protect yourself. And yeah, eh, you can just become immortal with little effort with epic spellcasting.


Even then you can do a lot, though of course the true reason Epic Spellcasting is so busted is 'cause of what you can do with help.

mostlyharmful
2009-09-19, 05:20 PM
But leve 20 wizards don't have Epic Spellcasting.

The hint here is that a level 20 character is not Epic. You don't become Epic until level 21.

true but they are able to call, bind, mindgank or create epic minions with epic casting.

Myou
2009-09-19, 05:22 PM
The problem with Epic Spellcasting is that it's useless if you play nice and utterly broken if you optimise.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 05:23 PM
But leve 20 wizards don't have Epic Spellcasting.

The hint here is that a level 20 character is not Epic. You don't become Epic until level 21.

All is not as it seems, young grasshopper. We have the technology to get access to Epic Spellcasting, if only for the duration of a form change. And in that time, we will raise a mythal that will persist indefinitely after our base epic spellcasting ability lapses. It was on 339 a bit ago, Noldor and Dr. Rocktopus special :) Only I do it without being a Kobold, and at a different level (really any level once you have what you want). So yes, I do have Epic Spellcasting at level 20, and remaining epic spellcasting afterwards.

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-19, 05:34 PM
Some of the posters here are sorely mistaken about how Epic Spellcasting mitigation works. For example, backlash is dealt per round of a spell's duration and a given creature can only submit one spell slot to a ritual casting.

@OP: I'd suggest taking out all the most ludicrous shenanigans, like time-trait genesis planes. I'd also suggest removing NI nonsense and possibly all ritual casting. A time limit would be nice too.

olentu
2009-09-19, 05:40 PM
All is not as it seems, young grasshopper. We have the technology to get access to Epic Spellcasting, if only for the duration of a form change. And in that time, we will raise a mythal that will persist indefinitely after our base epic spellcasting ability lapses. It was on 339 a bit ago, Noldor and Dr. Rocktopus special :) Only I do it without being a Kobold, and at a different level (really any level once you have what you want). So yes, I do have Epic Spellcasting at level 20, and remaining epic spellcasting afterwards.

While characters can obviously gain epic spellcasting before 21 that may not not be relevant to this challenge since the opponents are using comparable optimization and as epic spellcasting is so powerful that any optomization that got it before 21 would only really be comparable to another build who did the same at exactly the same level. So to preclude any method of gaining access to epic spellcasting or anything that has epic spellcasting the level 21 wizard need only to avoid gaining such things before level 21.

Jack_Simth
2009-09-19, 05:43 PM
research an epic spell that makes a spellcasting minion, use time or xp mitigators to reduce the cost in time, gp and xp to 0. use your new minion to start creating other minions, no angry gods with stolen solars involved. once you get recursive spellcasting minions with total loyalty there's not much else you need to do before giving yourself 21+ divine ranks and all the hot girlz.

Let's see... the as-written Epic Spellcasting rules don't include how to add actual spellcasting to a newly-created creature for ritualists. However, it's not necessary:


Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)

Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.

A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell:(Emphasis added, specific text from Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities)), and the create critter option of the Conjour seed lets you add spell-like abilities.

So you use Conjor (where the rules for creating critters with spell-likes are found) along with Life (required), Fortify (required), and Compel (to make it loyal) to make a critter that has an Epic spell-like ability (what that ability is doesn't matter, as long as it can use it at least twice per day) that is utterly loyal to you. The creature only needs one hit dice.

21: Conjour (Base DC 21) is my base seed (no save, no SR); and I don't need to add anything to it not found in the base seed (besides the spell-like, which we'll get to)
25: Fortify (Base DC 17) is required by Conjour for giving the critter hit dice. I only need it to have one hit die (5 "temporary" HP), so I need 4 levels of temp HP augmentation for a DC of 25 from this aspect.
27: Life (base DC 27) gives the critter stats. I don't really need anything beyond the base, for this.
29: Compel (Base DC 19) needs to be in there. "Follow all the commands of your creator" is good, although I'll want the +10 for "unreasonable course of action" in there, for a 29.
60: I also need a spell-like ability, which can be anything. Maybe Life (DC 27) for what amounts to Ressurection, and Heal (Base DC 25, +6 for getting rid of ability drain, +2 for getting rid of negative levels, too).
So before adding Permanent, it's got a base DC of 162. After making it Permanent, it's 810 (which is a pity; Permanently summoning a Planetar would only be 210, but that's essentially disallowed here). Now we need to mitigate that to the point where it doesn't cost anything.

I use Lesser Planar Binding to get some allied ritualists.

Trumpet Archons are 12 HD Outsiders that cast as 12th level clerics. We can do better - Ghaeles are 10 HD outsiders that cast as 14th level clerics. That'll do. They've got a +10 Will save and a Charisma modifier of only +3, and SR 28. Which means if I've got a Will save DC on Conjouration spells of 30 or better, and can get a +22 or better modifier on my opposed Charisma check, I'm only looking at nat-20 and nat-1 clauses on getting these guys to do me a service. Moment of Prescience will give me a +caster level on an opposed ability check. If I've got an Orange Prism Ioun Stone, that's a a caster level of 22, for a +22 modifier on the bargaining (provided I've got a Charisma of 10). Sufficient. If he gets a 20, he's got a 23. If I get a 2, I've got a 24. I win. 90% success rate on the Calling. If I ignore any slots from a high ability modifier, a standard Wizard can do this four times per day with the full ritual. At a caster level of 22, I can keep them around for up to 22 days. The deal is that they help me as ritualists on my next 44 Epic spells. 88 attempts in that period, with a 90% success rate, averages 79.2 Called Ghaeles. Each casts as a Cleric-14, so that's 7th level spells, at 13 points of mitigation each. Oh, hey - that's 1027 points of mitigation right there from their 7th level spell slots. When it comes down to it, I really only need 62 of them (so a 70% success rate on the Planar Binding is enough for this; that'd be a save DC of 26 - as I can Heighten the Planar Binding spell to 9th, I only need a +7 Intelligence modifier to do that (+5, if I take Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (Conjouration)). With all those spell slots, it's a DC 0 Epic spell, for no research time, no XP cost, and no GP cost.
This is a 22 day warm-up time.

So now I'm mass-manufactoring healing critters, at a rate of 2 per day. If they're left running around after? Well, I don't really care, they won't hurt much, and they're easy to dispose of if they do turn out to cause problems. Plus they're fanatically loyal to me, forever. But each one I create has a 10th level spell-like abilities that I can use to fuel Epic casting, at 19 mitigation each, for 38 per day (initially). As creating one costs 810 base spellcraft, after I've got 43 of them (22 days after I'm done with warm-up, day 44), I can double up all my numbers and twin the Epic spell, still be at 0 DC. After another 43 of them (11 days after that, day 55), I can triple up my base numbers to make 3 of them with each casting. After I've got another 43 of them (8 more days, day 63), I can quadruple up my base numbers to make 4 of them with each casting. Oh yeah, and at this point, about two month's into my prep-work, I've got something like 3,200 points of mitigation readily available. And this is exponential growth - I double my available mitigation every 22 days this way, quite easily (it's actually slightly faster than that, but I don't feel like working up the spreadsheet at the moment to get precise figures).

How high of a DC is the "I Win" spell? You've granted me arbitrarily high prep-time. With a 22 day doubling period on the 22 day warm-up period for an 810 DC, in 220 days from "start" I get mitigation of roughly 14,580. In 352 days (22 day warm-up plus 15 doubling cycles), I get mitigation of roughly 26,542,080 points.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 05:47 PM
While characters can obviously gain epic spellcasting before 21 that may not not be relevant to this challenge since the opponents are using comparable optimization and as epic spellcasting is so powerful that any optomization that got it before 21 would only really be comparable to another build who did the same at exactly the same level. So to preclude any method of gaining access to epic spellcasting or anything that has epic spellcasting the level 21 wizard need only to avoid gaining such things before level 21.

In that case it's best to limit it to strictly Wizard levels, because otherwise you'll have 2v1 epic spellcasting throwing solar systems at each other (pun intended). And don't forget...even if you do piss off a god, you shouldn't be mortal by this point, and Epic Spells affect gods. So long as you are never surprised, you can steal initiative all day, even from SDA's, and if they have the same tech, it's the same old song and dance of rocket tag. Even for a god 20-40 HD higher :P

olentu
2009-09-19, 05:58 PM
In that case it's best to limit it to strictly Wizard levels, because otherwise you'll have 2v1 epic spellcasting throwing solar systems at each other (pun intended). And don't forget...even if you do piss off a god, you shouldn't be mortal by this point, and Epic Spells affect gods. So long as you are never surprised, you can steal initiative all day, even from SDA's, and if they have the same tech, it's the same old song and dance of rocket tag. Even for a god 20-40 HD higher :P

Ah yes the comparable optimization restriction means that it seems best to optimize the level 21 character to be as bad as possible at non epic magic while still getting epic spellcasting at level 21.

Kyrthain
2009-09-19, 06:04 PM
I have a method that uses absolutely zero goons.

Step 1: Have a 21st level wizard who knows shun/embrace dark chaos.

Step 2: Design an epic spell that is arbitrarily powerful, but is mitigated by requiring 9 thousand decillion epic spells contributed. For these purposes, let us imagine that it does 2 billion d20 points of every type of damage, the same amount of negative levels, causes a save or die to anyone with less than 1 trillion HD, and makes them save or be turned into a potato. Boost the save DC to 2 billion, and have it have +2 billion to overcome SR. Finally, make it an emanation with an area equal to the size of the milky way galaxy. Let's call the spell "Annihilation"

Step 3: Shun/embrace to get permanent emanation (Annihilation) because the feat does not specify non epic spells, or spells you can cast on your own.
Nor does it state that you must actually cast the spell to be made permanent.

Step 4: Win.

Flickerdart
2009-09-19, 06:05 PM
Ah yes the comparable optimization restriction means that it seems best to optimize the level 21 character to be as bad as possible at non epic magic while still getting epic spellcasting at level 21.
The non-epics aren't idiots or clones. The OP evidently means that they will only use as much cheese as you do. That doesn't include nerf-batting themselves into oblivion.

Douglas
2009-09-19, 06:09 PM
Step 3: Shun/embrace to get permanent emanation (Annihilation) because the feat does not specify non epic spells
It doesn't need to. The rules for epic spells do that. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#metamagicItemsandEpicSpells)

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 06:10 PM
Ah yes the comparable optimization restriction means that it seems best to optimize the level 21 character to be as bad as possible at non epic magic while still getting epic spellcasting at level 21.

Sarcasm duly noted, but I wasn't refering to the Level 21 dude. I'm tempted to trick out a build like my usual level 20s, and then see what gets thrown up against me.

olentu
2009-09-19, 06:14 PM
The non-epics aren't idiots or clones. The OP evidently means that they will only use as much cheese as you do. That doesn't include nerf-batting themselves into oblivion.

I only see that they are not clones they might still be idiots. But yes I understood what was the intention but why not try to win while using as few non epic spells as possible and not taking any prestige classes.

Kyrthain
2009-09-19, 06:18 PM
It doesn't need to. The rules for epic spells do that. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#metamagicItemsandEpicSpells)

Dang.

Wait. Could a creature that has an at-will spell like ability contribute infinite spell slots?
Or am I crazy?

sonofzeal
2009-09-19, 06:20 PM
Step 1, Research Spell that creates single Coutal Ally permanently, mitigate to DC 0, 0 XP.
Mitigate how exactly?


If we don't want to use assistants, we can also just figure out the Spellcraft DC we can make:
-We can have 24 ranks
-+2 from K: Arcana synergy
-~+14 Intelligence as a base (more if we're truly utilizing Polymorph Any Object, but that is probably excessive)
-+15 Divine Insight
-+20 Guidance of the Avatar (assuming no custom items)
-some miscellaneous bonuses.

The above add up to about +65 or so, so we can expect to hit ~DC 75 consistently. We can also easily get -42 by taking 42d6 Backlash Damage (averages 147; simple Con 24 is gonna get us by that) and for permanent spells, -220 from casting time (which is made quite trivial by Genesis and fast time progression planes). All we need are ways to consistently cast Heal, such as Shapechange into Planetar & preparing it.

So we can quite easily generate DC 120 boost spells without any XP cost or such, and actual permanent spells of DC ~350 without much pain (note that XP costs are less painful on permanent spells for obvious reasons; not using Thought Bottles here).


DC120 allows generating a spell that grants us...+16 Insight to Int, for example. We can then generate a spell that also gives us +20...Luck to Int. These have to be cast daily due to the stupid stipulation preventing permanencying non-Inherent bonuses. Anyways, this gives us some extra for our DCs, though not much. The bigger effect is that if a non-epic Wizard is targeted by our non-epic SoD effects, they will fail their saves. We'll also have lots of dailies.

Permanent Ward vs. all spells would be a bit too expensive to generate. However, you can Ward yourself vs. Orbs, Maw of Chaos, Anti-Magic Field, Disjunction, Greater Dispel Magic & other Dispel-magic and overall, things which might prove detrimental to your health. You can also generate a few Contingencies, all these permanent mind you, to better protect yourself. And yeah, eh, you can just become immortal with little effort with epic spellcasting.


Even then you can do a lot, though of course the true reason Epic Spellcasting is so busted is 'cause of what you can do with help.
Excellent! However, remember that you only have two epic spell slots at this level. Which two epic spells are you going to cast on the big day?





Let's see... the as-written Epic Spellcasting rules don't include how to add actual spellcasting to a newly-created creature for ritualists. However, it's not necessary:

(Emphasis added, specific text from Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities)), and the create critter option of the Conjour seed lets you add spell-like abilities.

So you use Conjor (where the rules for creating critters with spell-likes are found) along with Life (required), Fortify (required), and Compel (to make it loyal) to make a critter that has an Epic spell-like ability (what that ability is doesn't matter, as long as it can use it at least twice per day) that is utterly loyal to you. The creature only needs one hit dice.

21: Conjour (Base DC 21) is my base seed (no save, no SR); and I don't need to add anything to it not found in the base seed (besides the spell-like, which we'll get to)
25: Fortify (Base DC 17) is required by Conjour for giving the critter hit dice. I only need it to have one hit die (5 "temporary" HP), so I need 4 levels of temp HP augmentation for a DC of 25 from this aspect.
27: Life (base DC 27) gives the critter stats. I don't really need anything beyond the base, for this.
29: Compel (Base DC 19) needs to be in there. "Follow all the commands of your creator" is good, although I'll want the +10 for "unreasonable course of action" in there, for a 29.
60: I also need a spell-like ability, which can be anything. Maybe Life (DC 27) for what amounts to Ressurection, and Heal (Base DC 25, +6 for getting rid of ability drain, +2 for getting rid of negative levels, too).
So before adding Permanent, it's got a base DC of 162. After making it Permanent, it's 810 (which is a pity; Permanently summoning a Planetar would only be 210, but that's essentially disallowed here). Now we need to mitigate that to the point where it doesn't cost anything.

I use Lesser Planar Binding to get some allied ritualists.

Trumpet Archons are 12 HD Outsiders that cast as 12th level clerics. We can do better - Ghaeles are 10 HD outsiders that cast as 14th level clerics. That'll do. They've got a +10 Will save and a Charisma modifier of only +3, and SR 28. Which means if I've got a Will save DC on Conjouration spells of 30 or better, and can get a +22 or better modifier on my opposed Charisma check, I'm only looking at nat-20 and nat-1 clauses on getting these guys to do me a service. Moment of Prescience will give me a +caster level on an opposed ability check. If I've got an Orange Prism Ioun Stone, that's a a caster level of 22, for a +22 modifier on the bargaining (provided I've got a Charisma of 10). Sufficient. If he gets a 20, he's got a 23. If I get a 2, I've got a 24. I win. 90% success rate on the Calling. If I ignore any slots from a high ability modifier, a standard Wizard can do this four times per day with the full ritual. At a caster level of 22, I can keep them around for up to 22 days. The deal is that they help me as ritualists on my next 44 Epic spells. 88 attempts in that period, with a 90% success rate, averages 79.2 Called Ghaeles. Each casts as a Cleric-14, so that's 7th level spells, at 13 points of mitigation each. Oh, hey - that's 1027 points of mitigation right there from their 7th level spell slots. When it comes down to it, I really only need 62 of them (so a 70% success rate on the Planar Binding is enough for this; that'd be a save DC of 26 - as I can Heighten the Planar Binding spell to 9th, I only need a +7 Intelligence modifier to do that (+5, if I take Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (Conjouration)). With all those spell slots, it's a DC 0 Epic spell, for no research time, no XP cost, and no GP cost.
This is a 22 day warm-up time.

So now I'm mass-manufactoring healing critters, at a rate of 2 per day. If they're left running around after? Well, I don't really care, they won't hurt much, and they're easy to dispose of if they do turn out to cause problems. Plus they're fanatically loyal to me, forever. But each one I create has a 10th level spell-like abilities that I can use to fuel Epic casting, at 19 mitigation each, for 38 per day (initially). As creating one costs 810 base spellcraft, after I've got 43 of them (22 days after I'm done with warm-up, day 44), I can double up all my numbers and twin the Epic spell, still be at 0 DC. After another 43 of them (11 days after that, day 55), I can triple up my base numbers to make 3 of them with each casting. After I've got another 43 of them (8 more days, day 63), I can quadruple up my base numbers to make 4 of them with each casting. Oh yeah, and at this point, about two month's into my prep-work, I've got something like 3,200 points of mitigation readily available. And this is exponential growth - I double my available mitigation every 22 days this way, quite easily (it's actually slightly faster than that, but I don't feel like working up the spreadsheet at the moment to get precise figures).

How high of a DC is the "I Win" spell? You've granted me arbitrarily high prep-time. With a 22 day doubling period on the 22 day warm-up period for an 810 DC, in 220 days from "start" I get mitigation of roughly 14,580. In 352 days (22 day warm-up plus 15 doubling cycles), I get mitigation of roughly 26,542,080 points.
I like your idea of using SLA's for mitigation. I'm not quite sure it works though - SLA's are cast like spells, but what the epic spellcasting asks for isn't spells, it's spell slots. As much as your minion might cast the spell, I don't think they could be argued to have the slot.

Also, Ghaele suffer a similar issue to the whole "chain-gating Solar" thing, in that you'll get some nasty company fairly quickly. Specifically, the Court of Stars and related deities are not going to look kindly on binding that many Ghaele. They may not all have 9th level Wizard spells, but the resources at their disposal are tremendous. I'm assuming for this that deities and various other interplanar powers generally keep an eye out for people binding/calling whole bunches of minions, because {a} they like having minions, and {b} they don't like mortals running around with DC eleventy-billion epic spells.

Eldariel
2009-09-19, 06:38 PM
Excellent! However, remember that you only have two epic spell slots at this level. Which two epic spells are you going to cast on the big day?

All the relevant ones are Permanent.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-19, 06:42 PM
As has been said, you don't actually need to summon or call anything. You can create critters wholecloth to fuel your spells with spell-like abilities.

ZeroNumerous
2009-09-19, 06:47 PM
On chain-gating:

Chain gate Black Ethergaunts. You successfully piss off no deities.

sonofzeal
2009-09-19, 06:48 PM
All the relevant ones are Permanent.
Ah, yes. Only the Int and Init ones need to be cast daily, yes? I'll count that as a total win then.



As has been said, you don't actually need to summon or call anything. You can create critters wholecloth to fuel your spells with spell-like abilities.
You can research a spell with a pretty high DC that creates a creature with an SLA. However, hitting that high DC can be an issue, and I'm highly sceptical that having an SLA gives them a "spell slot" to contribute.

sonofzeal
2009-09-19, 06:57 PM
On chain-gating:

Chain gate Black Ethergaunts. You successfully piss off no deities.
No, just other Black Ethergaunts, who can cast Heightened Magic Circle Against Good on themselves before they 'port after you, and auto-free their companions the instant they arrive. Might be trouble, depending on how many you had ("had", not "have"), and how many come after you.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-19, 07:06 PM
Mitigate how exactly?

There are endless choices,

But here we have a level 21 Wizard.

Let's do a Lillend, because they can be built to Couatl, and you are making a big deal about how everyone who ever casts Planar Binding is instantly murdered. (Even though my example is in a Genesis Plane, and therefore cannot ever be attacked by anyone).

Lillend is CR 7. Therefore, using the Summon Seed:

Base DC 14
+2 per CR over two = +10
DC 24. I'm a conjurer. So now DC 19.
Permanent Duration x5 -> DC 95.

Mitigating Factors: +10 minutes to casting -20 = DC 75
+38 days to casting time = DC 0.

Now, with Couatl, you have DC 125 before mitigating factors.
-20 for minutes casting time
-106 for +53 days casting time.

Of course, right away, after casting your First couatl summon, you want to develop a new Epic spell that is 4 days shorter but requires a ritual component of a 4th level spell from your coutal. Luckily, being DC zero, this spell take 0 seconds to develop.

Then you cast it. And then you develop a new spell that is 3 days shorter and requires both coutals. Then 4 days shorters requiring 3 coutals, ect.

Until you build your infinite summon army of Coutals to the point where you can mitigate the Summoning of a Solar. Or multiple coutals.

You can optimize the speed you do this by figuring out the exact break point where days added to casting become worth it for the upgrade to Couatl over Lillend, or two coutals or Solar over single Coutal. But it's too much work for me, so i don't worry about it. You have infinite time, and are invulnerable, so no reason to care.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-19, 07:15 PM
Chain gate your solars in Sigil. No gods coming to smite your ass then... just other solars...

Okay so my plan isn't foolproof.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-19, 07:25 PM
Chain gate your solars in Sigil. No gods coming to smite your ass then... just other solars...

Okay so my plan isn't foolproof.

Well the question is whether Lady of Pain allows chain gating.

If she doesn't, you get smited for trying.

But if she does, you win D&D, because Lady of Pain insta smites anyone who attempts to hurt you, and doesn't allow them to do any damage.

In fact, my Elan doesn't even need Genesis, though of course, the Time traits is nice, because he could go to Sigil and do his eternal Summoning, and Lady of Pain would prevent anyone from harming him, and Lady of Pain explicitly doesn't stop people from summoning.

ZeroNumerous
2009-09-19, 07:27 PM
No, just other Black Ethergaunts, who can cast Heightened Magic Circle Against Good on themselves before they 'port after you, and auto-free their companions the instant they arrive. Might be trouble, depending on how many you had ("had", not "have"), and how many come after you.

Gate: You gotta obey, no possession or mindscrewery involved. Magic Circle Against God Good fails.

EDIT: Magic Circle Against God fails too, but for entirely different reasons.

Mr.Bookworm
2009-09-19, 07:34 PM
Chain gate your solars in Sigil. No gods coming to smite your ass then... just other solars...

Okay so my plan isn't foolproof.

Of course, if a Solar starts what would essentially be a small-scale nuclear war (a Cleric 20 with a incredibly ridiculous template against an Epic Wizard) in Sigil, the Lady is going to show up and kick both their fundaments so hard that they'll both wake up next to Orcus in bed three weeks later.

Therefore, I'm guessing the nigh-immortal angels will elect to just wait until you come out of Sigil before jumping you in the metaphorical alley that is the planes.

The real problem with this challenge is, as someone else pointed out, that there are really only two ways to play it out. The Epic Wizard doesn't get enough time to prepare, and gets trounced rather soundly by three only slightly less powerful Wizards, or the Epic Wizard gets enough time to prepare, and uses an epic spell that puts every single atom in their bodies into a different star and then alters time so that they never existed. No save.

sonofzeal
2009-09-19, 07:35 PM
There are endless choices,

But here we have a level 21 Wizard.

Let's do a Lillend, because they can be built to Couatl, and you are making a big deal about how everyone who ever casts Planar Binding is instantly murdered. (Even though my example is in a Genesis Plane, and therefore cannot ever be attacked by anyone).
I'm not exactly sure about the "cannot ever be attacked by anyone" thing. Certainly a Discern Location reveals exactly where you and your summons are, and keeping the whole place Dimensional Lock'd is going to be an utter bitch; you'll need 729 simultaneous shaped castings to do it, much more if your Dimensional Lock is only spherical. That's assuming you've only cast Genesis once, and if you're keeping hordes of Lillends and Couatls and Solars around then you might need it even bigger. Cast it twice, and you need 5,832 simultanious shaped casting of Dimensional Lock. I'm not exactly sure how this is supposed to work. Oh, and even if Flowing Time is allowed for Genesis (which, by my reading, is uncertain), invoking it allows other high level forces to do the same, allowing them to keep up with you and negate the advantage.


Lillend is CR 7. Therefore, using the Summon Seed:

Base DC 14
+2 per CR over two = +10
DC 24. I'm a conjurer. So now DC 19.
Permanent Duration x5 -> DC 95.

Mitigating Factors: +10 minutes to casting -20 = DC 75
+38 days to casting time = DC 0.

Now, with Couatl, you have DC 125 before mitigating factors.
-20 for minutes casting time
-106 for +53 days casting time.

Of course, right away, after casting your First couatl summon, you want to develop a new Epic spell that is 4 days shorter but requires a ritual component of a 4th level spell from your coutal. Luckily, being DC zero, this spell take 0 seconds to develop.

Then you cast it. And then you develop a new spell that is 3 days shorter and requires both coutals. Then 4 days shorters requiring 3 coutals, ect.

Until you build your infinite summon army of Coutals to the point where you can mitigate the Summoning of a Solar. Or multiple coutals.

You can optimize the speed you do this by figuring out the exact break point where days added to casting become worth it for the upgrade to Couatl over Lillend, or two coutals or Solar over single Coutal. But it's too much work for me, so i don't worry about it. You have infinite time, and are invulnerable, so no reason to care.
What if deities are not obligated to grant divine spells? I'm not sure if this is RAW or not, but it certainly throws yet another monkeywrench into the whole "gain legions of contributors" thing.

Look, can we try something else? What can you do without shaky pyramid schemes, and actually casting spells on your own merit?

sonofzeal
2009-09-19, 07:37 PM
Gate: You gotta obey, no possession or mindscrewery involved. Magic Circle Against God Good fails.

EDIT: Magic Circle Against God fails too, but for entirely different reasons.
See my post in the other thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125582). "Protection From Evil" is almost certainly worded broadly enough to counter Gate.

olentu
2009-09-19, 07:40 PM
See my post in the other thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125582). "Protection From Evil" is almost certainly worded broadly enough to counter Gate.

Well I would disagree as per my counter argument but unlike the other thread you are the on presenting the challenge here and so can rule as you wish.

Edit: So is it coldfire then or would that be banned as not on ones own merit even though one goes and gets it ones self.

sonofzeal
2009-09-19, 07:45 PM
Well I would disagree as per my counter argument but unlike the other thread you are the on presenting the challenge here and so can rule as you wish.

Edit: So is it coldfire then or would that be banned as not on ones own merit even though one goes and gets it ones self.
Well, as much as I favour my own interpretation (don't we all), I can see why someone might disagree. Still, for the purposes of the challenge, I think it's much more interesting to see what people can do without that. Chain-gating, or chain-binding, or chain-creating, all leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It's obviously cheesy, obviously would never fly with a typical DM, and obviously beats the challenge trivially. Much more interesting to me is what sort of epic spells can be cast with the type of DC a normal Wizard can hit, and how much advantage those give over non-epic spells.

(edit) ....but I do like your iteration of the idea enough to count it as a partial win. It's a creative way around some of the other limitations of Binding or Gating, and that's worth some credit.

fractal_uk
2009-09-19, 08:14 PM
Use wish (or something) to replicate the wu jen spell "Body Outside Body," these cannot actually cast traditional spells or have any standard spells, however, they do have your skill points and feats, meaning that they share both your ranks in knowledge(arcana) and the Epic Spellcasting feat - this means that your duplicates have epic spell slots.

Since Body Outside Body is fixed range, an incantatrix can make it extended, persistant etc.

Once they have epic spell slots you can mitigate your epic spells by requiring other participants (your duplicates) to provide epic spell slots to the epic spell. Due to the 48 hours they can be around for, you can get substantial mitigation from time as well.

With unlimited mitigation, you can basically do whatever you want with epic spellcasting.

Volkov
2009-09-19, 08:15 PM
On chain-gating:

Chain gate Black Ethergaunts. You successfully piss off no deities.

Careful, some of them may have four or more levels in wizard, thus giving them epic spells. Some may even have 23 levels or more.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-19, 08:16 PM
I'm not exactly sure about the "cannot ever be attacked by anyone" thing. Certainly a Discern Location reveals exactly where you and your summons are, and keeping the whole place Dimensional Lock'd is going to be an utter bitch; you'll need 729 simultaneous shaped castings to do it, much more if your Dimensional Lock is only spherical. That's assuming you've only cast Genesis once, and if you're keeping hordes of Lillends and Couatls and Solars around then you might need it even bigger. Cast it twice, and you need 5,832 simultanious shaped casting of Dimensional Lock. I'm not exactly sure how this is supposed to work. Oh, and even if Flowing Time is allowed for Genesis (which, by my reading, is uncertain), invoking it allows other high level forces to do the same, allowing them to keep up with you and negate the advantage.

One of the traits of your Demiplane is you can dictate who is allowed to enter the plane. IE, you and your summoned minions only. Awesome.


What if deities are not obligated to grant divine spells? I'm not sure if this is RAW or not, but it certainly throws yet another monkeywrench into the whole "gain legions of contributors" thing.

1) So Dieties don't grant spells to Summoned Solars ever? Why?

2) Why would Pelor not grant spells to Solars that are using spells to aid their master in creating a powerful new life form to destroy all the Undead in the universe?

3) Just use nothing but Couatls. Problem solved. Sorcerer casting is awesome.


Look, can we try something else? What can you do without shaky pyramid schemes, and actually casting spells on your own merit?

Look, can we try something else? What can Wizards do without spells? Oh nothing, then clearly Wizards are inferior characters to fighters.

Or, maybe the whole point is that Epic spellcasting hands you a pyramid scam with zero chance of failure for free.

The whole point of Epic Spellcasting is that without Mitigation, it is terrible, and with Mitigation, you can have infinite anything.

Every level 21 Wizard with Epic Spellcasting has a free +19 Armor, +19 Natural Armor, + 4 Deflection, +4 Luck, +4 Insight, +4 Profane, +4 Divine, +4 Happy, +4 Enhancement bonus to AC. Also a +13 enhancement bonus to each stat, and each saving throw, and natural armor and SR.

All this at the cost of 0XP, 0 Gold and nothing but time. If you assume he even has a Cleric Friend, you can make that, +28/28/6/6/6/6/6/6/6 to AC, and + 22 to each stat/save/natural Armor and SR.

Yeah, I think +125 AC, +33 to each saving throw, and +22 to the SR you'll have from transformation, plus all the crazy stuff you can do with permanent transformations that let you determine what you keep or give away.

That pushes him off of the RNG of AC, Touch AC, and Saves against his level 20 Wizard opposition for one.

But the main problem is the free Pyramid Scheme that comes built in.

PirateMonk
2009-09-19, 08:22 PM
For example, chain-gating Solars will bring in their patron deities against you.

What can gods do to you when you have an infinite army of Solars?

Volkov
2009-09-19, 08:22 PM
Get your dungeon master drunk, then ask him to approve a totally broken spell that gives death with no saving throw or spell resistance. Then blow the level 21 wizard away.

Volkov
2009-09-19, 08:23 PM
What can gods do to you when you have an infinite army of Solars?

Instantly convert the solars back into the base form of petitioner of their home plane.

Volkov
2009-09-19, 08:25 PM
Or they can smash you with the divine blast salient ability, which leaves you no way to resist the often stupidly large amounts of damage. Thus killing you. Or if they are feeling like jerks, you get the hand of death or life and death salient ability.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 08:36 PM
Or they can smash you with the divine blast salient ability, which leaves you no way to resist the often stupidly large amounts of damage. Thus killing you. Or if they are feeling like jerks, you get the hand of death or life and death salient ability.

Ward seed can stop a divine blast, and if you're still mortal by this level, you're doing it wrong. Next!

Volkov
2009-09-19, 08:37 PM
Ward seed can stop a divine blast, and if you're still mortal by this level, you're doing it wrong. Next!

Hand of death, death with no saving throw, and no idea of what the crap just happened.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 08:38 PM
Hand of death, death with no saving throw, and no idea of what the crap just happened.

Does not work on non-mortals. Only mortals die with no save. Against anything else, it's just a death effect.

PirateMonk
2009-09-19, 08:45 PM
Hand of death, death with no saving throw, and no idea of what the crap just happened.

Hand of Death allows a save:


This ability works like the destruction spell, except that there is no material component. The mortal is allowed a Fortitude saving throw with a DC of 20 + the deity’s Charisma bonus + the deity’s divine rank. Even if the save succeeds, the subject takes 10d6 points of damage, which may kill it anyway.

It's Life and Death and Divine Splendor which are problematic if you're mortal.

Volkov
2009-09-19, 08:47 PM
Hand of Death allows a save:



It's Life and Death and Divine Splendor which are problematic if you're mortal.
So just hope they aren't greater deities, because even if you succeeded, it's 60 hit points gone, which is a massive blow to a wizard, and then the deity tries again, and again until you just drop down dead.

Vecna however, would just use some sort of cheap, unfair plot device.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 08:51 PM
So just hope they aren't greater deities, because even if you succeeded, it's 60 hit points gone, which is a massive blow to a wizard, and then the deity tries again, and again until you just drop down dead.

Vecna however, would just use some sort of cheap, unfair plot device.

Not in a closed plane he can't, and not if my persistent extended (NI years) planar bubble is up, which it will be from the mythal (pre-epic mind you). Next! Bear in mind, I was a close follower of the killing gods thread, and while I may not be able to bring Vecna down at level 20, I can keep from going down myself. And without going Pun-pun.

EDIT : Oh, and hp loss is a non-issue if I know I'm facing something nasty, and I have the divinations available to know that :P

Volkov
2009-09-19, 08:52 PM
Not in a closed plane he can't, and not if my persistent extended (NI years) planar bubble is up, which it will be from the mythal (pre-epic mind you). Next! Bear in mind, I was a close follower of the killing gods thread, and while I may not be able to bring Vecna down at level 20, I can keep from going down myself. And without going Pun-pun.
Vecna has some 13 levels or more on you, ten or so divine ranks, a good amount of cleric levels as well, and the bat-man factor. He's got a plan for everything. He forced D&D to change from 2e to 3e once with only the power of a greater god.

PirateMonk
2009-09-19, 08:52 PM
So just hope they aren't greater deities, because even if you succeeded, it's 60 hit points gone, which is a massive blow to a wizard, and then the deity tries again, and again until you just drop down dead.

Vecna however, would just use some sort of cheap, unfair plot device.

By this point, you are no longer a puny human(oid) wizard. You are creature with limitless hit dice and every epic spell ever as an at-will extraordinary ability. On second thought, the solar army is pretty irrelevant.

Volkov
2009-09-19, 08:54 PM
By this point, you are no longer a puny human(oid) wizard. You are creature with limitless hit dice and every epic spell ever as an at-will extraordinary ability. On second thought, the solar army is pretty irrelevant.

If that god has 21 levels in any primary spellcasting class and epic spellcasting, you have no advantage over him/her/it/hermaphrodite.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 08:58 PM
Vecna has some 13 levels or more on you, ten or so divine ranks, a good amount of cleric levels as well, and the bat-man factor. He's got a plan for everything. He forced D&D to change from 2e to 3e once with only the power of a greater god.

I can get 4 extra from whenever I can cast one polymorph and psyref them into permanent. Now we're level 24. 20 levels of cleric are one spell away, since the Dusk Giant is no longer needed. Batman factor I'll match spell for spell. And if I don't feel divine (since they've all at some time been converted to arcane via one of a hundred methods, and thus scribed into my spellbook via ToAL), I'll match his Int even as an ethergaunt. Now even the most convoluted plan I'll have a contingency for. Am I a god? Nope. But a god will have to really work to bring me down. Short of time travel trickery (which a high level wizard can also do), there's really no reason an epic spellcaster should die unless it's part of some plan of theirs.

Volkov
2009-09-19, 09:05 PM
Vecna probably has a "Anti epic-spell caster" plot device. He's got everything.

sonofzeal
2009-09-19, 09:13 PM
Vecna probably has a "Anti epic-spell caster" plot device. He's got everything.
I'm of the opinion that his plan (and the plan of every other "batman" epic level entity) for dealing with epic spellcasting upstarts is to keep careful tabs on summonable/callable minions that those other epic spellcasters would use for massive mitigation purposes. That assumption is one of the big factors in why I've been rather harsh on it; the trick would reasonably be known by any epic spellcaster, and would be their #1 prime concern to prevent if they want to keep their position of power.

quick_comment
2009-09-19, 09:31 PM
Shadow Ritual
Base Seed: Shadow
Effect: Makes a duplicate of the caster for 24 hours. I dont have lost empire of faerun on me, but its a pretty easy spell.

Epic Ward:
Wards against foresight, shapechange in a 100ft radius
Permanent (still cheap)

Epic Ward Ward
Wards against epic ward in a personal radius.
Permanent (still cheap)


Die!
Base Seed: Summon (DC 14)
Summon a unique individual: +60
Seed: Destroy(DC 29)
+50d6 damage (+100) (total of 120 dice)
Seed: Dispel(DC 19)
Dispel check at 1d20+50 (+40)
Other:
Increase die size to 20 (+8) (8,10,12,20)
+100 on save: +200
Additional target: +10
Subtotal: 480
Mitigation:
Increase casting time to 10 minutes (-18)
25 Duplicates each donating an epic spell slot (-475)
Total DC: 5

The Die! spell summons two individuals from anywhere at all (Will save DC 110 to negate). After they are summoned, they are subjected to a dispel effect (at d20+50), then take 50d20 damage (fort save DC 110 to negate).


The wizard casts shadow ritual once, then the shadow duplicate casts it, until you have 25 duplicates. Then he casts the spell on the targets. There is a small chance one makes the save. If that happens, he just casts the spells again tomorrow. If somehow the target fails the save vs summon but survives, then the 26 epic wizards get their surprise round. (And you cannot cast celerity during the surprise round because foresight is shut down via the epic ward.)

Kelpstrand
2009-09-19, 09:34 PM
I'm of the opinion that his plan (and the plan of every other "batman" epic level entity) for dealing with epic spellcasting upstarts is to keep careful tabs on summonable/callable minions that those other epic spellcasters would use for massive mitigation purposes. That assumption is one of the big factors in why I've been rather harsh on it; the trick would reasonably be known by any epic spellcaster, and would be their #1 prime concern to prevent if they want to keep their position of power.

Why? If they already did it, they already have all the benefits, and are unkillably awesome. They can't lose to anything, so why does it matter if other people are good?

I don't understand why anyone would make the assumption that every epic level spellcaster and god has this thing were they want to kill anyone who looks like they might not suck.

Lots of good fiction has ascended beings that want more beings to ascend. Or Gods who don't mind cooperating, or even creating, other Gods.

Volkov
2009-09-19, 09:41 PM
I know what can beat a level 21 wizard...A level 22 wizard.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 09:49 PM
I know what can beat a level 21 wizard...A level 22 wizard.

No, not if they're built right. A level 22 wizard has exactly one advantage that is null and void by one spell, and that's average 2+Con mod hp. CL is a moot point thanks to either Circle Magic or Greater Consumptive Field, and they'll both have the same basis in defense. They'll lay waste to the plane in a shoot-out, but do basically nothing to each other, because they're immune to absolutely everything. My only point was that in the event of the original challenge, a super highly optimized level 21 would end up fighting level 20 clones of himself, also armed with epic capability. Which, as above, will end in a draw (or a double win, if they're both Red Wizards hell bent on blowing up the place).

sonofzeal
2009-09-19, 09:50 PM
Why? If they already did it, they already have all the benefits, and are unkillably awesome. They can't lose to anything, so why does it matter if other people are good?

I don't understand why anyone would make the assumption that every epic level spellcaster and god has this thing were they want to kill anyone who looks like they might not suck.

Lots of good fiction has ascended beings that want more beings to ascend. Or Gods who don't mind cooperating, or even creating, other Gods.
Well, I'd draw a parallel with nuclear weapons. They exist, and right at the beginning got used and spread to a fairly small group of powers, who then tried to do their best to prevent it from spreading any further because of the massive repercussion that could come from evil use of it. In this case, even if another gate-chaining epic spellcaster couldn't kill you, they could kill/destroy the things you love and you wouldn't be able to kill them back. They could thwart all your plans, and even if you could thwart theirs too that just leaves both of you in a permanent stalemate, hardly what such a powerful being would wish for. You could either try to stop all epic spellcasting, or stop the summon/calling cheese. In a suitably vast cosmology, there's probably a sufficient number who want others to ascend, ones who don't want any epic spellcasters at all, and ones who allow epic spellcasters but not gate-chaining.

For my purposes, I'd generally assume that the time when you start cheesing it up is the time when things start arriving to smack you silly. Personally, I think that's a reasonable assumption; there's enough things out there that would know and wouldn't want it, that it'd be effectively impossible to do unless another one of them "sponsored" you somehow. And hey, maybe that does happen.

Anyway, you can "not suck" without gate-chaining. There's a couple people who've already demonstrated ways in this thread, and kudos to them. It's harder, and you're not nearly as close to Pun-Pun level power, but you can still claim a decisive advantage over the vast majority of the material plane and your former peers. Isn't that enough?

Volkov
2009-09-19, 09:51 PM
No, not if they're built right. A level 22 wizard has exactly one advantage that is null and void by one spell, and that's average 2+Con mod hp. CL is a moot point thanks to either Circle Magic or Greater Consumptive Field, and they'll both have the same basis in defense. They'll lay waste to the plane in a shoot-out, but do basically nothing to each other, because they're immune to absolutely everything. My only point was that in the event of the original challenge, a super highly optimized level 21 would end up fighting level 20 clones of himself, also armed with epic capability. Which, as above, will end in a draw (or a double win, if they're both Red Wizards hell bent on blowing up the place).

Fine then, A level 441 wizard can beat the level 21 wizard.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 10:06 PM
Fine then, A level 441 wizard can beat the level 21 wizard.

That one I'll only grant by process of attrition, and only if he can 100% shut down the casting ability of the 21. I.e. taking mage slayer and it's tree and casting only epic spells inside an AMF and a Shadow AMF. Oh, and you better get a surprise round, and supress the 21's mythal, and hope he doesn't have a contingency tied to a gauge opponent effect (there's a spell somewhere that measure's threat level, I just can't remember the name), and another that detects hostile intent, and another that autoactivates anytime he is scryed upon or teleported near (after the waiting period, and before, and during), and another and another and another...

sonofzeal
2009-09-19, 10:06 PM
Shadow Ritual
Base Seed: Shadow
Effect: Makes a duplicate of the caster for 24 hours. I dont have lost empire of faerun on me, but its a pretty easy spell.

Epic Ward:
Wards against foresight, shapechange in a 100ft radius
Permanent (still cheap)

Epic Ward Ward
Wards against epic ward in a personal radius.
Permanent (still cheap)


Die!
Base Seed: Summon (DC 14)
Summon a unique individual: +60
Seed: Destroy(DC 29)
+50d6 damage (+100) (total of 120 dice)
Seed: Dispel(DC 19)
Dispel check at 1d20+50 (+40)
Other:
Increase die size to 20 (+8) (8,10,12,20)
+100 on save: +200
Additional target: +10
Subtotal: 480
Mitigation:
Increase casting time to 10 minutes (-18)
25 Duplicates each donating an epic spell slot (-475)
Total DC: 5

The Die! spell summons two individuals from anywhere at all (Will save DC 110 to negate). After they are summoned, they are subjected to a dispel effect (at d20+50), then take 50d20 damage (fort save DC 110 to negate).


The wizard casts shadow ritual once, then the shadow duplicate casts it, until you have 25 duplicates. Then he casts the spell on the targets. There is a small chance one makes the save. If that happens, he just casts the spells again tomorrow. If somehow the target fails the save vs summon but survives, then the 26 epic wizards get their surprise round. (And you cannot cast celerity during the surprise round because foresight is shut down via the epic ward.)
Nice! I especially like the Epic Ward Ward. By the way, it's a DC 75 Spellcraft check, pre-mitigation, to make a shadow of yourself for 1 hour. Toss in 10 or 20d6 of backlash, and you're down to number that are quite feasible.

The only potential issue is auto-passing your Will save to recognize them as illusions, and whether or not that ruins the effect. If we could make them 100% quasi-real, that would help. Unfortunately it doesn't have the "figment" descriptor, so Shadowcraft Mage is out. I'm honestly not sure if this ruins the trick or not, so I'll put it under the "partial" list for now.

Volkov
2009-09-19, 10:08 PM
That one I'll only grant by process of attrition, and only if he can 100% shut down the casting ability of the 21. I.e. taking mage slayer and it's tree and casting only epic spells inside an AMF and a Shadow AMF. Oh, and you better get a surprise round, and supress the 21's mythal, and hope he doesn't have a contingency tied to a gauge opponent effect (there's a spell somewhere that measure's threat level, I just can't remember the name), and another that detects hostile intent, and another that autoactivates anytime he is scryed upon or teleported near (after the waiting period, and before, and during), and another and another and another...

He'd be much more able to cast much more powerful epic spells than the level 21 wizard however.

speeddemon
2009-09-19, 10:14 PM
heres an idea for how an 21st level spellcaster could beat the 3 20th level casters
round 1 epic mage casts power word kill to take down one spellcaster the uses a quickend antimagic feild to stop the others then a slay spell seed quickend to a standerd action to kill the others as an antimagic field wont affect an epic spells that easily but will stop the 2 remaing spellcasters from casting

Mushroom Ninja
2009-09-19, 10:18 PM
...round 1 epic mage casts power word kill to take down one spellcaster...

The twentieth level casters will have more than 100 hp.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 10:19 PM
He'd be much more able to cast much more powerful epic spells than the level 21 wizard however.

That is true, but it is not relative power. When you are immune to death effects, a DC 20 death effect is the same as a DC 2,000 death effect. When you cannot die from hp damage, you can take as many 50000d100 blasts as you'd like. When you have a contingent effect for anything that can possibly bring down your defenses, you will always be capable of escaping a possibly fatal situation. The main thing epic spellcasting does for a wizard is remove variables. Survival if they're smart is a variable at lower levels. At higher levels, if they're smart, it's a near constant. The moment you can raise a mythal, it IS a constant. And all it takes is one contingency to fire off to instantly whisk you away to safety, regardless of the attacker. Cowardly? Hells yes. But did you just stare down the barrel of a cosmic scattergun and moon the shooter before he could blow you away? Hell yeah!

As for the OP, wasn't there a thread somewhere on 339 that had the planar factor? As in the cost to make an epic spell effect the whole plane. Dimensional Lock the entire plane, then AftS the entire planet. ALL of it. And burninate it too with breath weapon abuse. They can't teleport out, and hell, for good measure, encase the plane in a Ward/Conjuration of force, so when they get blown to the edge, they just get smashed by the pressure of several hundred quintillion tons and more turning into gas :D

Kelpstrand
2009-09-19, 10:23 PM
For my purposes, I'd generally assume that the time when you start cheesing it up is the time when things start arriving to smack you silly. Personally, I think that's a reasonable assumption; there's enough things out there that would know and wouldn't want it, that it'd be effectively impossible to do unless another one of them "sponsored" you somehow. And hey, maybe that does happen.

Except the whole point is that Vecna would totally kill everyone who ever tries to figure out anything if he could, but he can't, because Boccob will stop him because Boccob wants everyone to know everything.

That's the point, every invincible person is already dealing with invincible people, and Grummush and Corellan Lanthian are trapped in an eternal struggle of self correcting thwarting, and that's the reason why when some Orcs go to burn down an Elf forest, Grummush doesn't make the fires hotter, and Cor doesn't make the Trees immune to fire.

They cancel out, so the orcs have to do stuff themselves, the elves have to do stuff themselves, and an Epic Wizard in a demiplane that gives access only to his summoned minions doesn't have to worry about Vecna killing him to prevent him from gaining new knowledge.


Anyway, you can "not suck" without gate-chaining. There's a couple people who've already demonstrated ways in this thread, and kudos to them. It's harder, and you're not nearly as close to Pun-Pun level power, but you can still claim a decisive advantage over the vast majority of the material plane and your former peers. Isn't that enough?

You entirely missed my post showing what you can do solely with Permanent spells with DC 0 casting times and no minions at all, didn't you?

Volkov
2009-09-19, 10:24 PM
That is true, but it is not relative power. When you are immune to death effects, a DC 20 death effect is the same as a DC 2,000 death effect. When you cannot die from hp damage, you can take as many 50000d100 blasts as you'd like. When you have a contingent effect for anything that can possibly bring down your defenses, you will always be capable of escaping a possibly fatal situation. The main thing epic spellcasting does for a wizard is remove variables. Survival if they're smart is a variable at lower levels. At higher levels, if they're smart, it's a near constant. The moment you can raise a mythal, it IS a constant. And all it takes is one contingency to fire off to instantly whisk you away to safety, regardless of the attacker. Cowardly? Hells yes. But did you just stare down the barrel of a cosmic scattergun and moon the shooter before he could blow you away? Hell yeah!

As for the OP, wasn't there a thread somewhere on 339 that had the planar factor? As in the cost to make an epic spell effect the whole plane. Dimensional Lock the entire plane, then AftS the entire planet. ALL of it. And burninate it too with breath weapon abuse. They can't teleport out, and hell, for good measure, encase the plane in a Ward/Conjuration of force, so when they get blown to the edge, they just get smashed by the pressure of several hundred quintillion tons and more turning into gas :D

He could cast a spell that would permanently strip a level 21 wizard of his powers, with no saving throw and doesn't allow spell resistance, and penetrates all magical or mundane defenses.

Volkov
2009-09-19, 10:26 PM
Except the whole point is that Vecna would totally kill everyone who ever tries to figure out anything if he could, but he can't, because Boccob will stop him because Boccob wants everyone to know everything.

That's the point, every invincible person is already dealing with invincible people, and Grummush and Corellan Lanthian are trapped in an eternal struggle of self correcting thwarting, and that's the reason why when some Orcs go to burn down an Elf forest, Grummush doesn't make the fires hotter, and Cor doesn't make the Trees immune to fire.

They cancel out, so the orcs have to do stuff themselves, the elves have to do stuff themselves, and an Epic Wizard in a demiplane that gives access only to his summoned minions doesn't have to worry about Vecna killing him to prevent him from gaining new knowledge.



You entirely missed my post showing what you can do solely with Permanent spells with DC 0 casting times and no minions at all, didn't you?

Vecna almost totally destroyed Boccob. Boccob and all the other gods fear Vecna too much to touch him. The outsider lords fear him, the archoelementals fear him, everything fears him, because he was very close to destroying all reality and remaking it in his image.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 10:27 PM
He could cast a spell that would permanently strip a level 21 wizard of his powers, with no saving throw and doesn't allow spell resistance, and penetrates all magical or mundane defenses.

That's called DM fiat ;) And regardless, fails to the contingency on hostile intent from a source of greater than 5 HD above his own, triggering a massive drop of teleport effects to his home plane through his planar bubble, rendering him immune since it is a closed plane.

olentu
2009-09-19, 10:27 PM
Actually the only use of caster level that I can remember off the top of my head in epic spells is using the destroy or dispel seed. But then again I am not so familiar with epic spell creation rules having not looked them over in detail in quite some time.

Edit: Closed plane where is that term coming from as I can not recall that exact term being used.

quick_comment
2009-09-19, 10:28 PM
That's called DM fiat ;) And regardless, fails to the contingency on hostile intent from a source of greater than 5 HD above his own, triggering a massive drop of teleport effects to his home plane through his planar bubble, rendering him immune since it is a closed plane.

You cant contingency on "hostile intent". At best, you can contingency on your epic version of foresight going off.

speeddemon
2009-09-19, 10:28 PM
The twentieth level casters will have more than 100 hp.

how does 19d4+4=more than 100 hp cause my adding gets alot lower number

quick_comment
2009-09-19, 10:29 PM
how does 19d4+4=more than 100 hp cause my adding gets alot lower number

They get d4+con per level. So a level 20 wizard with 20 con has 100 hp without factoring his HD in at all.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 10:31 PM
You cant contingency on "hostile intent". At best, you can contingency on your epic version of foresight going off.

Bingo, and that can be tied to nearly anything. Such as one of a myriad of your detection spells.


how does 19d4+4=more than 100 hp cause my adding gets alot lower number

Forgetting that con bonus, are we?

EDIT : Dammit, ninja-ed!

olentu
2009-09-19, 10:32 PM
Bingo, and that can be tied to nearly anything. Such as one of a myriad of your detection spells.



Forgetting that con bonus, are we?

EDIT : Dammit, ninja-ed!

So closed plane or is that not an exact term. Er the question is where it is used as I can not recall that exact term.

Edit: That reminds me detecting someone using the epic conceal seed is another place where caster level is used.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 10:33 PM
So closed plane or is that not an exact term.

On a closed plane, the only entity that can enter in any way is the creator, and not even them if they want to seal it. Think of Ravenloft as a closed plane. Hell, make it a closed plane with no functional magic other than yours, and take pride in knowing you still live in fear of Mystra, who ignores planar restrictions :P

EDIT : Where did they first put that...it was originally originally a 2nd ed term, and was brought over in either the ELH or the first Manual of the Planes. I imagine they reprinted it though in the Planar Handbook. Hell, I haven't looked at that chapter in a while, it could be in the DMG even.

EDIT #2 : Oh, and pre-existing gateways. Closed planes are still accessible through those, if you put one up.

olentu
2009-09-19, 10:35 PM
On a closed plane, the only entity that can enter in any way is the creator, and not even them if they want to seal it. Think of Ravenloft as a closed plane. Hell, make it a closed plane with no functional magic other than yours, and take pride in knowing you still live in fear of Mystra, who ignores planar restrictions :P

Oh I understand what you mean but I was wondering where that exact term is defined in the rules for my own edification as I could have use of it in the future.

Edit: And I see that you have seen my clarification making this somewhat redundant.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-19, 10:36 PM
Vecna almost totally destroyed Boccob. Boccob and all the other gods fear Vecna too much to touch him. The outsider lords fear him, the archoelementals fear him, everything fears him, because he was very close to destroying all reality and remaking it in his image.

Your personal feelings about how Vecna is the bestest ever have no bearing on the actual conversation.

Vecna wants everything to be a secret, Boccob wants everyone to know everything. Vecna can't kill everyone or erase everyone's mind, because Boccob stops him, and Boccob can't tell people everything, because Vecna stops him.

Boccob is a Greater God. After Greater Gods, come Intermediate Gods. Then Lesser Gods. Vecna is a lesser god. Greater Gods do not fear lesser gods.

speeddemon
2009-09-19, 10:47 PM
They get d4+con per level. So a level 20 wizard with 20 con has 100 hp without factoring his HD in at all.

how much con does a wizard have?
most would put it as there 3rd score after intelligence and dexterity so i really high con is 14 so the +2 bonus still dosen't add up to a 100

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 10:50 PM
how much con does a wizard have?
most would put it as there 3rd score after intelligence and dexterity so i really high con is 14 so the +2 bonus still dosen't add up to a 100

Don't know about your wizards, but most of mine are at least Planatars by this level...and they have an unbuffed con of 20. That and having a familiar and access to 8th level spells = arbitrary hp.

quick_comment
2009-09-19, 10:50 PM
how much con does a wizard have?
most would put it as there 3rd score after intelligence and dexterity so i really high con is 14 so the +2 bonus still dosen't add up to a 100

Every wizard I build has con as a secondary stat. Usually start with a 16 in it, then have a +6 item by level 20, for a total of 22(+6). Then add in a +4 inherent bonus and you have 26(+8). So about 200 hp at level 20, and more when shapechanged.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-19, 10:52 PM
how much con does a wizard have?
most would put it as there 3rd score after intelligence and dexterity so i really high con is 14 so the +2 bonus still dosen't add up to a 100

Many would put it as their second score. It would almost never be lower than third. A Con 14 is average starting score. A level 20 Wizard has 760,000gp to spend. Some of that is going to work it's way into a +6 Con item, because there aren't enough things to spend money on besides that.

Even still, a Level 20 Wizard with a mere 14 Con has an average of 92HP, even a single +2 Con item would push that up to 112HP.

EDIT: um... Hello people. Polymorph errata.

Con from shapechange and PoO don't add to HP.

quick_comment
2009-09-19, 10:53 PM
And for hilarity, you can take the faerie mysteries initiate feat from dragon magazine that makes your hp dependent on int, not con.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 10:54 PM
Many would put it as their second score. It would almost never be lower than third. A Con 14 is average starting score. A level 20 Wizard has 760,000gp to spend. Some of that is going to work it's way into a +6 Con item, because there aren't enough things to spend money on besides that.

Even still, a Level 20 Wizard with a mere 14 Con has an average of 92HP, even a single +2 Con item would push that up to 112HP.

EDIT: um... Hello people. Polymorph errata.

Con from shapechange and PoO don't add to HP.

Moot point when you can psyref levels.

EDIT : Not to mention, see above about familiar hit point batteries :P

tyckspoon
2009-09-19, 10:55 PM
how much con does a wizard have?
most would put it as there 3rd score after intelligence and dexterity so i really high con is 14 so the +2 bonus still dosen't add up to a 100

If you're talking about an Epic wizard? 20-some; 10 base +6 Enhancement +5 Inherent. A +6 stat enhancement item is nothing to somebody with Epic money to play with, and a Wizard can arrange to get the Wishes for +5 Inherent for pretty much free. Pre-Epic, he might not want to cash out for the full +5 Inherent, but you're still going to be looking at at least 16-18.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-19, 10:58 PM
Moot point when you can psyref levels.

And how is PsyRef doing anything at all to make you have more Con?

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 11:01 PM
And how is PsyRef doing anything at all to make you have more Con?

Rebuild your levels as a planatar. You won't be going off your original con modifier. And regardless, as I said, you have arbitrary hit points with DCFS tech. Not to mention +100 HP from a single spell.

lsfreak
2009-09-19, 11:07 PM
And we're forgetting this is an epic-level wizard. He can just make up a few spells that give +12 enhance, +4 morale, +4 sacred, +4 competence, +4 circumstance bonus to Con if he wants to take the time. Which, with his 1000:1 demiplane, he really has no reason not to.

EDIT: I really need to start refreshing tabs before I post in them...

tyckspoon
2009-09-19, 11:11 PM
Rebuild your levels as a planatar. You won't be going off your original con modifier. And regardless, as I said, you have arbitrary hit points with DCFS tech. Not to mention +100 HP from a single spell.

:smallconfused: I'm not sure what 'PsyRef' you're thinking of, but Psychic Reformation doesn't do that. It lets you repick feats, skills, and psychic power choices. That's it. Not sure what DCFS is referring to either.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-19, 11:15 PM
Rebuild your levels as a planatar. You won't be going off your original con modifier. And regardless, as I said, you have arbitrary hit points with DCFS tech. Not to mention +100 HP from a single spell.

Rebuild you 21 levels of Wizard as LA - Planetar levels that you could never have selected and still cannot select.

So in other words. No. You are wrong.

You never had the option, even at level 1 of taking a level in 'Planetar' so you can't use Psy ref to do that. You can't even use it to choose a different race, since you never choose that in the first place (you did, your character did not, and it's not a decision like "feats" or "skills"). You'd be hard pressed to argue you can even change class levels.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 11:21 PM
:smallconfused: I'm not sure what 'PsyRef' you're thinking of, but Psychic Reformation doesn't do that. It lets you repick feats, skills, and psychic power choices. That's it. Not sure what DCFS is referring to either.

Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle. Familiars grant Alertness. DCFS that into Toughness. Have the familiar move 10 feet away. Have the familiar return. Repeat as desired.


Rebuild you 21 levels of Wizard as LA - Planetar levels that you could never have selected and still cannot select.

So in other words. No. You are wrong.

You never had the option, even at level 1 of taking a level in 'Planetar' so you can't use Psy ref to do that. You can't even use it to choose a different race, since you never choose that in the first place (you did, your character did not, and it's not a decision like "feats" or "skills"). You'd be hard pressed to argue you can even change class levels.

Rebuilding levels the old fashioned way. Your average HP will increase. Also, time isn't an issue at this point. Psionics should speed it up, but my XPH isn't here and I don't feel like looking at what the higher level one can do (Psi Chirugy I think?). But regardless, as I said, it's a moot point. Hell, one spell = never die from hp damage, and a second spell = act normally below 0. After a certain point, hp are the least of your worries. Oh, and if you can find a way (aka a massive epic spell) you WILL gain more hp from becoming a planetar, as you'll be DvR 0 and as such automatically get max hp per level. Do the same thing with Paragon if you want, just to prove that you are the big man on campus. I would say the sky's the limit, but you conquered that at 3rd level :)

speeddemon
2009-09-19, 11:25 PM
fine, fine, fine
power word kill wouldn't work but a weird would work as it would almost definetly have 1 wizard fail there will save and they really don't have much hope for a fort save and even if they all made it one time then procced with plan as normal to take out 2 wizards then end antimagic feild next turn to use a time stop buff then blast the remaining wizard alot

tyckspoon
2009-09-19, 11:27 PM
Rebuilding levels the old fashioned way. Your average HP will increase. Also, time isn't an issue at this point. Psionics should speed it up, but my XPH isn't here and I don't feel like looking at what the higher level one can do (Psi Chirugy I think?). But regardless, as I said, it's a moot point. Hell, one spell = never die from hp damage, and a second spell = act normally below 0. After a certain point, hp are the least of your worries. Oh, and if you can find a way (aka a massive epic spell) you WILL gain more hp from becoming a planetar, as you'll be DvR 0 and as such automatically get max hp per level. Do the same thing with Paragon if you want, just to prove that you are the big man on campus. I would say the sky's the limit, but you conquered that at 3rd level :)

That.. is probably one of the most absurd means of applying the Chaos Shuffle I've ever heard, and that's saying something in reference to a tactic that is already one of the more absurd things you can do with the game.

As for the Planetar bit, I'd like to know a couple of things: A, how do you intend to become a Planetar; B, how do you intend to 'rebuild' your levels as a Planetar without losing your Wizard levels in the process and rendering the whole thing hugely counterproductive, and C, what makes you think a Planetar is Divine Rank 0? Perhaps we are not thinking of the same Planetar?

quick_comment
2009-09-19, 11:30 PM
fine, fine, fine
power word kill wouldn't work but a weird would work as it would almost definetly have 1 wizard fail there will save and they really don't have much hope for a fort save and even if they all made it one time then procced with plan as normal to take out 2 wizards then end antimagic feild next turn to use a time stop buff then blast the remaining wizard alot

Weird will work 0% of the time on level 20 wizards.

olentu
2009-09-19, 11:31 PM
Hmm has a planetar been given a level adjustment or had a racial progression been stated out somewhere that I have not heard about.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 11:31 PM
That.. is probably one of the most absurd means of applying the Chaos Shuffle I've ever heard, and that's saying something in reference to a tactic that is already one of the more absurd things you can do with the game.

As for the Planetar bit, I'd like to know a couple of things: A, how do you intend to become a Planetar; B, how do you intend to 'rebuild' your levels as a Planetar without losing your Wizard levels in the process and rendering the whole thing hugely counterproductive, and C, what makes you think a Planetar is Divine Rank 0? Perhaps we are not thinking of the same Planetar?

Rebuild as in your levels will be identical, you're just using a different base race. LA be damned, you got it as a spell :P And regardless, that is a minor point that is easily compensated for by previous tricks.

As for DvR 0, transform seed is the key to your divinity. It'll be a ton of +10's for all those special abilities, but mitigation capability is arbitrary, as shown earlier. And really, you can go higher if you want. Might piss off some gods in the process though...

EDIT : Oh, and it was Archmage_Joda who came up with kicking your rat to get NI hp. On BG. If you guys would like, I'll copy my SCM from over there to show you how a level 20 wizard can achieve Pun-pun without anything being NI.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-19, 11:31 PM
Rebuilding levels the old fashioned way. Your average HP will increase. Also, time isn't an issue at this point. Psionics should speed it up, but my XPH isn't here and I don't feel like looking at what the higher level one can do (Psi Chirugy I think?).

Rebuilding levels will not give you more HP, as already stated, you can't even change your class levels, you certainly can't do anything to change you HP, seeing as Con is retroactive already.

Psychic Chirurgery merely cures conditions and grants knowledge of powers, it does not allow you to rebuild at all.


But regardless, as I said, it's a moot point. Hell, one spell = never die from hp damage, and a second spell = act normally below 0. After a certain point, hp are the least of your worries. Oh, and if you can find a way (aka a massive epic spell) you WILL gain more hp from becoming a planetar, as you'll be DvR 0 and as such automatically get max hp per level. Do the same thing with Paragon if you want, just to prove that you are the big man on campus. I would say the sky's the limit, but you conquered that at 3rd level :)

This is all entirely superflous, as I have not at any point made statements regarding HP being a problem. I would appreciate it if you refrained from contradicting me about things I have not been saying.

Speaking of contradicting. Planetars are not DvR 0, they have no Divine Rank at all.

speeddemon
2009-09-19, 11:42 PM
Weird will work 0% of the time on level 20 wizards.

i don't see how it will work 0% of the time but the secondary plan still works so to bad

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 11:42 PM
Rebuilding levels will not give you more HP, as already stated, you can't even change your class levels, you certainly can't do anything to change you HP, seeing as Con is retroactive already.

Psychic Chirurgery merely cures conditions and grants knowledge of powers, it does not allow you to rebuild at all.



This is all entirely superflous, as I have not at any point made statements regarding HP being a problem. I would appreciate it if you refrained from contradicting me about things I have not been saying.

Speaking of contradicting. Planetars are not DvR 0, they have no Divine Rank at all.

Reread the post above you. And since when did I specify you as regarding HP as a problem again? I'm stating the entire issue is a non-issue. If becoming a planatar in a non-dispelable way (aka not permanent, instantaneous) doesn't increase HP, so be it. Kicking your familiar away every round with DCFS does. And Planetar transformation doesn't give you DvR 0, said epic spell above does. Or higher.

quick_comment
2009-09-19, 11:45 PM
i don't see how it will work 0% of the time but the secondary plan still works so to bad

Mind blank, and your secondary plan is so poorly worded I have no idea what you intended.

tyckspoon
2009-09-19, 11:45 PM
i don't see how it will work 0% of the time but the secondary plan still works so to bad

Mind Blank. Level 20 Wizards are Mind Blanked as a matter of course, and Weird is Mind-Affecting. And if they're inside an AMF you can't affect them with it anyways, since it's an instant effect that gets suppressed. And you're taking your action to try to Weird them, which means they get their turns, and I wouldn't count on you still being alive after letting 3 level 20 Wizards have a go at you even if you do have Epic magic.

quick_comment
2009-09-19, 11:47 PM
Seriously, weird is the worst choice you could have made for killing high level wizards. Wail of the banshee is blocked just as easily, but at least its a fort save instead of will AND fort.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 11:52 PM
Here's an idea...can an epic spell act as a trigger for dropping a bunch of spells at once with a single command? I.e. dimensional lock+forcecage and then epic conjure seed to fill the cages with something nasty, like quintessence?

olentu
2009-09-19, 11:52 PM
Reread the post above you. And since when did I specify you as regarding HP as a problem again? I'm stating the entire issue is a non-issue. If becoming a planatar in a non-dispelable way (aka not permanent, instantaneous) doesn't increase HP, so be it. Kicking your familiar away every round with DCFS does. And Planetar transformation doesn't give you DvR 0, said epic spell above does. Or higher.

Actually from what I recall trying to rebuild into a LA - race with racial HD causes the game to stop working completely.

quick_comment
2009-09-19, 11:53 PM
Here's an idea...can an epic spell act as a trigger for dropping a bunch of spells at once with a single command? I.e. dimensional lock+forcecage and then epic conjure seed to fill the cages with something nasty, like quintessence?

You mean the pretty standard timestop+cloudkill+forcecage?

Forcecage doesnt work on wizards, they can teleport out or disintegrate or disjunct the forcecage.

olentu
2009-09-19, 11:56 PM
Here's an idea...can an epic spell act as a trigger for dropping a bunch of spells at once with a single command? I.e. dimensional lock+forcecage and then epic conjure seed to fill the cages with something nasty, like quintessence?

Why not just use the epic conjure seed to put them in a flying ball of quintessence.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-20, 12:01 AM
You mean the pretty standard timestop+cloudkill+forcecage?

Forcecage doesnt work on wizards, they can teleport out or disintegrate or disjunct the forcecage.

Hence the dimensional lock...


Why not just use the epic conjure seed to put them in a flying ball of quintessence.

They could teleport out of that if they survived. Maybe do it inside a time stop, and sculpt it so it's still usable inside a time stop. When it lapses, have a readied action to sculpt it again via Metamagic Effect. Bam, eat condensed time!

quick_comment
2009-09-20, 12:03 AM
Hence the dimensional lock...



Which is dispellable, and doesnt stop disintegrate, disjunction or shadowform.




They could teleport out of that if they survived. Maybe do it inside a time stop, and sculpt it so it's still usable inside a time stop. When it lapses, have a readied action to sculpt it again via Metamagic Effect. Bam, eat condensed time!

They couldnt teleport out, since in quintessence you dont get any actions

KellKheraptis
2009-09-20, 12:08 AM
Which is dispellable, and doesnt stop disintegrate, disjunction or shadowform.



They couldnt teleport out, since in quintessence you dont get any actions

If that's the case, dimensional lock isn't needed anyhow. Just need to win initiative and lead in with a twinned AMF. The seed should still work as it's creating matter and dumping it, akin to the Orb spells, and thus work in AMF. Time Stop and friends, or maybe even cast it across planar boundaries.

olentu
2009-09-20, 12:09 AM
If that's the case, dimensional lock isn't needed anyhow. Just need to win initiative and lead in with a twinned AMF. The seed should still work as it's creating matter and dumping it, akin to the Orb spells, and thus work in AMF. Time Stop and friends, or maybe even cast it across planar boundaries.

Hence the question (assuming a reasonable usage of stasis).

speeddemon
2009-09-20, 12:43 AM
Mind Blank. Level 20 Wizards are Mind Blanked as a matter of course, and Weird is Mind-Affecting. And if they're inside an AMF you can't affect them with it anyways, since it's an instant effect that gets suppressed. And you're taking your action to try to Weird them, which means they get their turns, and I wouldn't count on you still being alive after letting 3 level 20 Wizards have a go at you even if you do have Epic magic.

if you had read it properly you would realize that they are in an AMF AFTER being hit with weird or wail of the banshie. your assuming that they all have mind blank on at the begining of the battle and my secondary plan was to end the antimagic feild on my turn after killing the other 2 casters then using a time stop to allow me to buff myself then use a temporal stasis on the remaining spellcaster and throwing him in a volcanoe. Ok, do we all understand the plan now?

tyckspoon
2009-09-20, 12:58 AM
Mind Blank is a 24 hour spell. Yes, they do have it up at the start of the fight; it's the next closest thing to being permanent. Wail of the Banshee would be a smarter choice, but it's got enough holes that you can't be certain of it working either- it can be blocked by not hearing it, by being immune to Death effects, or by being immune to Fortitude saves (by acquiring Undead or Construct traits, for example.) Or, of course, by simply making the saving throw, which is unlikely but not impossible.

Do remember that dismissing a spell is a standard action- if you want to end your own AMF, you're left with a Swift action to use a spell in that round. You'll pretty much have to be using a Greater Rod of Quicken to do much effective.. although as an Epic character, one of your advantages is having much greater wealth than any pre-epic character, so that's ok.

speeddemon
2009-09-20, 01:04 AM
See thats why i have the buffs so I can survive his spell easily enough for a round then use temporal stasis on him.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-20, 01:08 AM
I'm still a big fan of closing off planar travel and nuking the planet, but then again, I always was a fan of overkill...

olentu
2009-09-20, 01:18 AM
I'm still a big fan of closing off planar travel and nuking the planet, but then again, I always was a fan of overkill...

What kind of wizard would be on the planet in the first place.

speeddemon
2009-09-20, 01:23 AM
I'm still a big fan of closing off planar travel and nuking the planet, but then again, I always was a fan of overkill...

What some people call overkill, other people call being thorugh

tyckspoon
2009-09-20, 01:30 AM
See thats why i have the buffs so I can survive his spell easily enough for a round then use temporal stasis on him.

Mind walking through this one? You're making a lot of assumptions that I don't share, so I can't tell what you're doing. For starters, what is your plan to reliably eliminate two of the opposing wizards right from the start? For that matter, what is your plan to win initiative over all three so that you don't get shot down by them first? What permanent/semi-permanent buffs of note are you using (and, relevant to the challenge, are any of them Epic in source?)

speeddemon
2009-09-20, 02:04 AM
Mind walking through this one? You're making a lot of assumptions that I don't share, so I can't tell what you're doing. For starters, what is your plan to reliably eliminate two of the opposing wizards right from the start? For that matter, what is your plan to win initiative over all three so that you don't get shot down by them first? What permanent/semi-permanent buffs of note are you using (and, relevant to the challenge, are any of them Epic in source?)

I want you to go back and read about my Slay spell seed idea okay. That deals with the first two wizards. As for my buffs they are in order of how many i can cast before time stop runs out:

Spell turning, quickend Haste: round 1 of time stop
Dimensional Lock, quickend Stoneskin: round 2
True seeing, quickend Invisibilty greater: round 3
Globe of invunribility, quickend major illusion(of me standing where I was. I am now not directly behined him but behined one corner of where he is standing): round 4
Summon monster 8, quickened Fly: round 5 and end of time stop

As for winning Initiavie I have the feat Improved Initiative and 26 Dex after enhancments and modifiers ( Look its my secondary stat so no neeed to ask where all the bonuses come from ). And while this would not make it certain that i win initiative it would make it alot easier.

tyckspoon
2009-09-20, 02:19 AM
round 1 epic mage casts power word kill to take down one spellcaster the uses a quickend antimagic feild to stop the others then a slay spell seed quickend to a standerd action to kill the others as an antimagic field wont affect an epic spells that easily but will stop the 2 remaing spellcasters from casting

This Slay seed 'idea'? You didn't list what the actual spell you would develop using this is. What would its save DC be? What is the Spellcraft DC to cast? And what are you going to do if one or more of your targets are immune to [Death] effects? There are several spells and affordable magic items that will do that.

..oh, and you have two standard actions in your plan there, which is going to require at least two rounds. Although I must assume you have since decided against attempting Power Word: Kill and are just going to open with Slay + Quickened AMF. Not sure why you think an AMF is going to significantly hamper your opponents; you haven't used any sort of debuffing effects or field control, so there's nothing stopping them from just walking out of it and casting normally.

I asked about initiative because, unless you are using something that requires you to be Epic (a massive Dex buffing Epic spell, for example) then your opponents can match you, which means you have pretty good odds of at least one of the opponents going first. Which is very, very bad for you.

speeddemon
2009-09-20, 02:21 AM
Slight change with the buffs. Depending on how long the time stop lasts switch the Spell turning effect with the last one then cast spell turning after casting the quickened spell of that round

speeddemon
2009-09-20, 02:34 AM
This Slay seed 'idea'? You didn't list what the actual spell you would develop using this is. What would its save DC be? What is the Spellcraft DC to cast? And what are you going to do if one or more of your targets are immune to [Death] effects? There are several spells and affordable magic items that will do that.

..oh, and you have two standard actions in your plan there, which is going to require at least two rounds. Although I must assume you have since decided against attempting Power Word: Kill and are just going to open with Slay + Quickened AMF. Not sure why you think an AMF is going to significantly hamper your opponents; you haven't used any sort of debuffing effects or field control, so there's nothing stopping them from just walking out of it and casting normally.

I asked about initiative because, unless you are using something that requires you to be Epic (a massive Dex buffing Epic spell, for example) then your opponents can match you, which means you have pretty good odds of at least one of the opponents going first. Which is very, very bad for you.

The epic spell is one that I made useing the base slay spell seed then making it a standard action with a +20 DC modifier. And true they can cast a spell at me out side of the AMF but it won't affect me because I'm inside said field.

As for initiative I also have supireor intiative, and 2 rings of universal energy resistance, greater and a +8 clock of resistance.

speeddemon
2009-09-20, 02:45 AM
Tykpsoon could you please cut back on the nit-picking cause im just trying to create a somewhat realistic character within the rules of the contest. And if you aren't going to stop then at least put it on hold till tomorrow cause im going to sleep.

tyckspoon
2009-09-20, 02:47 AM
The epic spell is one that I made useing the base slay spell seed then making it a standard action with a +20 DC modifier. And true they can cast a spell at me out side of the AMF but it won't affect me because I'm inside said field.

As for initiative I also have supireor intiative, and 2 rings of universal energy resistance, greater and a +8 clock of resistance.

So that's a Spellcraft DC 45 spell. It costs 405,000 GP to develop and 16,200 XP. Well, that's a problem there- by fiat of Original Poster, you have only 10,000 XP to work with. That limits any Epic Spell you make to having a final Spellcraft DC of at most 27. What are you going to do to mitigate the spell?

They don't really need to cast a spell at you directly. One of 'em raises a Wall of Stone or Force around the perimeter of your AMF, which blocks your line of effect and possibly line of sight. You now have to spend your actions exiting your own 'defense'.

And no, you don't have Superior Initiative. Your Epic Feat is Epic Spellcasting. You don't get another one until level 23, which is the first Wizard bonus, or 24 if you multiclassed and are farther away from an Epic bonus feat.

Edit: Nit-picking? I'm trying to find out how your character *works*. So far you haven't presented a character. You've given some ideas for what a character *might* do, but none of it convincingly leads to a victory.

mostlyharmful
2009-09-20, 04:37 PM
And no, you don't have Superior Initiative. Your Epic Feat is Epic Spellcasting. You don't get another one until level 23, which is the first Wizard bonus, or 24 if you multiclassed and are farther away from an Epic bonus feat.

Unless some fool has written up a spell allowing you to change around your feat choices. But nobody would be that dumb, surely.

speeddemon
2009-09-20, 05:02 PM
So that's a Spellcraft DC 45 spell. It costs 405,000 GP to develop and 16,200 XP. Well, that's a problem there- by fiat of Original Poster, you have only 10,000 XP to work with. That limits any Epic Spell you make to having a final Spellcraft DC of at most 27. What are you going to do to mitigate the spell?

They don't really need to cast a spell at you directly. One of 'em raises a Wall of Stone or Force around the perimeter of your AMF, which blocks your line of effect and possibly line of sight. You now have to spend your actions exiting your own 'defense'.

And no, you don't have Superior Initiative. Your Epic Feat is Epic Spellcasting. You don't get another one until level 23, which is the first Wizard bonus, or 24 if you multiclassed and are farther away from an Epic bonus feat.

Edit: Nit-picking? I'm trying to find out how your character *works*. So far you haven't presented a character. You've given some ideas for what a character *might* do, but none of it convincingly leads to a victory.

I don't have superior intiative but i do havee that feat from complete scoundrel that allows me to reroll my initative if I don't like it so i still have a good chance of winning initiative.

I am allowed to make the spell seed cause im getting rid of this epic rod that lets me cut the xp cost down alot when making an epic spell (I don't remeber the name of it so if anyone wants to know just look it up don't ask me)

A wall of stone won't work cause I'll just skipp right to the buff stage of my plan without having to waste a time stop cause while I can't see them they also can't see me and wouldn't know when my antimagic feild was down. Then I teleport out and use wail of the banshiee and my slay spell seed idea to pick them off.

Yes a wall of force does throw a wrench in my plans but why would an wizard prepare a wall of force against another wizard when there so easy to escape from for wizards ( in fact almost any other secnario than the antimagic field would let the wizard easily escape)

quick_comment
2009-09-20, 05:16 PM
I don't have superior intiative but i do havee that feat from complete scoundrel that allows me to reroll my initative if I don't like it so i still have a good chance of winning initiative.

I am allowed to make the spell seed cause im getting rid of this epic rod that lets me cut the xp cost down alot when making an epic spell (I don't remeber the name of it so if anyone wants to know just look it up don't ask me)

A wall of stone won't work cause I'll just skipp right to the buff stage of my plan without having to waste a time stop cause while I can't see them they also can't see me and wouldn't know when my antimagic feild was down. Then I teleport out and use wail of the banshiee and my slay spell seed idea to pick them off.

Yes a wall of force does throw a wrench in my plans but why would an wizard prepare a wall of force against another wizard when there so easy to escape from for wizards ( in fact almost any other secnario than the antimagic field would let the wizard easily escape)


http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/11/3/

speeddemon
2009-09-20, 05:20 PM
So I made a few spelling mistakes. Bite me. It's good enough to be understandible and thats really all that matters.

quick_comment
2009-09-20, 05:25 PM
So I made a few spelling mistakes. Bite me. It's good enough to be understandible and thats really all that matters.

No, its not really understandable.

speeddemon
2009-09-20, 05:38 PM
If you went back then looked at it from the begining of it all the way up to this point it would make more sense

quick_comment
2009-09-20, 05:48 PM
If you went back then looked at it from the begining of it all the way up to this point it would make more sense

I have better things to do with my time than try to parse posts without any punctuation.

speeddemon
2009-09-20, 05:56 PM
I have better things to do with my time than try to parse posts without any punctuation.

If you have so much better things to do with your time then bug off and stop posting here.

taltamir
2009-09-20, 06:11 PM
Okay, a level 21 Wizard with Epic Spellcasting breaks the game. Everyone says so, so it must be true. The question is, how? Is he all that much more powerful than a level 20 Wizard without?

.
.
.


Why are you challenging us to take wizards and just smash them against each other like warriors doing direct damage?

The reason epic spells is broken is because:
1. You can do ANYTHING, including creating life, imbuing said life with magical powers, and creating your own custom dimension.
2. Mitigating the DC reduces both the cost to research and the time to research.
Mitigate DC to 0 and you got a practically free spell that can be researched in a day.

A level 21 wizard can take out a thousand level 20 wizards... not by getting into a ring with them and just slinging damage spells (although the "total immunity to anything epic" really helps... EX: you can cast a non epic anti magic field... which your own epic magic bypasses. Or cast an epic anti magic field, tweaked to only affect the enemy) But no, you do not want to just sling spells in an ARENA. You want to send a thousand archons to kick their ass instead.

A level 21 wizard, lets call him lord Munch will create a spell with DC0 to create his own servent with the powers of an archeon / high level devil / whatever... will summon someone of his choice (or get human wizards to help) by contributing spell levels.
Will then cast said spell with the assitants and create his first permanent assitant that belongs to him... So Lord Munch's Angels... aka LMA, is an archeon totally loyal to lord munch, created by lord much... lets create... spend 5 days to create 5 of those. Then research a new spell... creates the same creature, only with the ability to reproduce this time... increases cost by 5x before mitigation... good thing you have 5 of them to help you mitigate the spell... so you do.
Now you have your own caste of true breeding angels/demons/whatever in your command.

Get a lot of them, creature your own plane (you can do so without a single helper, but getting a lot means less work)... imprt flora and fauna, create your own MORTALS to worship you as a god... and so on.

taltamir
2009-09-20, 06:16 PM
I'm of the opinion that his plan (and the plan of every other "batman" epic level entity) for dealing with epic spellcasting upstarts is to keep careful tabs on summonable/callable minions that those other epic spellcasters would use for massive mitigation purposes. That assumption is one of the big factors in why I've been rather harsh on it; the trick would reasonably be known by any epic spellcaster, and would be their #1 prime concern to prevent if they want to keep their position of power.

or he could just use his divine power of instant death to any one being of his choice. Said being is instantly killed and cannot be resurrected unless a god with the divine power of resurrection AND a higher divine rank than vecna chooses to resurrect him.

quick_comment
2009-09-20, 06:18 PM
{Scrubbed}

taltamir
2009-09-20, 06:20 PM
There are endless choices,

But here we have a level 21 Wizard.

Let's do a Lillend, because they can be built to Couatl, and you are making a big deal about how everyone who ever casts Planar Binding is instantly murdered. (Even though my example is in a Genesis Plane, and therefore cannot ever be attacked by anyone).

Lillend is CR 7. Therefore, using the Summon Seed:

Base DC 14
+2 per CR over two = +10
DC 24. I'm a conjurer. So now DC 19.
Permanent Duration x5 -> DC 95.

Mitigating Factors: +10 minutes to casting -20 = DC 75
+38 days to casting time = DC 0.

Now, with Couatl, you have DC 125 before mitigating factors.
-20 for minutes casting time
-106 for +53 days casting time.

Of course, right away, after casting your First couatl summon, you want to develop a new Epic spell that is 4 days shorter but requires a ritual component of a 4th level spell from your coutal. Luckily, being DC zero, this spell take 0 seconds to develop.

Then you cast it. And then you develop a new spell that is 3 days shorter and requires both coutals. Then 4 days shorters requiring 3 coutals, ect.

Until you build your infinite summon army of Coutals to the point where you can mitigate the Summoning of a Solar. Or multiple coutals.

You can optimize the speed you do this by figuring out the exact break point where days added to casting become worth it for the upgrade to Couatl over Lillend, or two coutals or Solar over single Coutal. But it's too much work for me, so i don't worry about it. You have infinite time, and are invulnerable, so no reason to care.

there are actually SPECIFIC rules allowing to stat the DC for each individual creature so as to pick and CHOOSE which abilities you want to give them...

So you can just drop all supernatural abilities, drop all the stats except their casting stat to 10, etc... to greatly decrease your cost; so your 56 days is an overstatement as it assumes you give them the full powers of the creature that they are based upon... you can call them "magic fountains" instead of coatls or solars... and make them look like anything you want.

taltamir
2009-09-20, 06:22 PM
Look, can we try something else? What can you do without shaky pyramid schemes, and actually casting spells on your own merit?

nothing really, but that is why epic casting is broken.


Look, can we try something else? What can Wizards do without spells? Oh nothing, then clearly Wizards are inferior characters to fighters.

Or, maybe the whole point is that Epic spellcasting hands you a pyramid scam with zero chance of failure for free.

The whole point of Epic Spellcasting is that without Mitigation, it is terrible, and with Mitigation, you can have infinite anything.

Every level 21 Wizard with Epic Spellcasting has a free +19 Armor, +19 Natural Armor, + 4 Deflection, +4 Luck, +4 Insight, +4 Profane, +4 Divine, +4 Happy, +4 Enhancement bonus to AC. Also a +13 enhancement bonus to each stat, and each saving throw, and natural armor and SR.

All this at the cost of 0XP, 0 Gold and nothing but time. If you assume he even has a Cleric Friend, you can make that, +28/28/6/6/6/6/6/6/6 to AC, and + 22 to each stat/save/natural Armor and SR.

Yeah, I think +125 AC, +33 to each saving throw, and +22 to the SR you'll have from transformation, plus all the crazy stuff you can do with permanent transformations that let you determine what you keep or give away.

That pushes him off of the RNG of AC, Touch AC, and Saves against his level 20 Wizard opposition for one.

But the main problem is the free Pyramid Scheme that comes built in.

This sums it up perfectly...

You have a built in pyramid scheme, if you use it, nothing is beyond your power. If you do not use that than casting the equivalent of a spell level 5 spell (aka, from 9th level wizard) is the best you can do using an epic level spell, at tremendous cost to yourself.

speeddemon
2009-09-20, 06:26 PM
I didnt say I didnt have time to post here. I said I had better things to do than reading poorly formatted posts that look like crappy twilight fanfiction

You could actually try posting something about the challenge rather than my spelling or puntuation, thank you very much.

speeddemon
2009-09-20, 06:27 PM
And yes I know I did not spell punctuation correctly

Kelpstrand
2009-09-20, 06:42 PM
or he could just use his divine power of instant death to any one being of his choice. Said being is instantly killed and cannot be resurrected unless a god with the divine power of resurrection AND a higher divine rank than vecna chooses to resurrect him.

Except of Course the Boccob has a higher Divine Rank, and uses Alter Reality to bring them back to life completely overriding everything Vecna ever does.

Because Vecna's actual goal is to prevent anyone from knowing anything, so if there weren't some other God stopping him, he would actaully kill every single person with even a single rank in knowledge.


there are actually SPECIFIC rules allowing to stat the DC for each individual creature so as to pick and CHOOSE which abilities you want to give them...

So you can just drop all supernatural abilities, drop all the stats except their casting stat to 10, etc... to greatly decrease your cost; so your 56 days is an overstatement as it assumes you give them the full powers of the creature that they are based upon... you can call them "magic fountains" instead of coatls or solars... and make them look like anything you want.

You are thinking of the Conjure Seed + Life Seed + ect. But that's different, because it doesn't grant spells, so you can't use it for mitigation. First you use Permanent Summons to create a Couatl and then Solar Army of Mitigation to deal with the much larger DCs of creating creatures with Extraordinary abilities at will that are the equivalent of Epic spells.

Or maybe you are thinking Transformation, and that's cool, but it's not actually that great, since the DC is way higher to Permanent Transform a squirrel into a Couatl than it is to just Summon one.

Godskook
2009-09-20, 06:49 PM
Question: How much of an increase to the DC of Eidolon would it be to not receive a negative level just for casting the spell? I.e., it would work exactly as normal, except the amount of negative levels for creating an eidolon is not X, but X-1, where X is the Eidolon's level - 20, limited to your 'level'?

quick_comment
2009-09-20, 06:51 PM
You could actually try posting something about the challenge rather than my spelling or puntuation, thank you very much.

I did. I made a set of epic spells to easily kill the two level 20 wizards. I also provided a method for infinite epic spell mitigation without using gate or any xp at all.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-20, 06:52 PM
Kelp, getting people to realize that the gods can't fling around Life and Death is a lost cause, it seems. Especially since they can't even wrap their heads around the concept that an epic spellcaster will be neither mortal or susceptible to death effects. The Transform seed though is the key. But first you need to create the race, and the Fortify and Life seeds add abilities to a new life form they did not previously have (because they had 0). Innate spellcasting is an ability, and statted out tied to race in quite a few races. Most likely, it's scalar, so it would be an ad hoc modifier, but then again, granting it as a single ability means it gets more powerful as the creature gains HD (kind of like Power Attack does linearly more damage per level as BAB goes up...though bad example since spells really start to soar in the mid levels and skyrocket in the high levels, but you get the idea). That's only a +10 to transform into. IIRC from the wiz boards, Instantaneous (instead of Permanent) is x10, meaning nothing can reverse or supress it. Build an ubercreature, build another one of the opposite gender (assuming they are gendered, but so long as there are two so Ubercritter isn't The Ubercritter), and then Transform seed into it. It doesn't have to be Pun-pun, but I imagine if you gave yourself demilich magic immunity and Dragon type stats, with an Ethergaunt intelligence, you could clean house on just about any number of level 20 wizards, being so bold as to whack them with their own staves if you felt so inclined. Really once you have The Batcave of Epic R&D, it's not IF you kill them, it's how. Unless it's my SCM shadow miracle at will inside a mythal level 20, in which case it's invite them over to a planet to destroy it playing never-ending rocket tag :P

Kelpstrand
2009-09-20, 06:54 PM
I did. I made a set of epic spells to easily kill the two level 20 wizards. I also provided a method for infinite epic spell mitigation without using gate or any xp at all.

Well yeah. I specifically beat everyone to the punch on infinite Mitigation without Gate, since my very First spell is a Permanent Summon of a spellcasting Outsider for DC 0.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-20, 06:58 PM
Kelp, getting people to realize that the gods can't fling around Life and Death is a lost cause, it seems. Especially since they can't even wrap their heads around the concept that an epic spellcaster will be neither mortal or susceptible to death effects. The Transform seed though is the key. But first you need to create the race, and the Fortify and Life seeds add abilities to a new life form they did not previously have (because they had 0). Innate spellcasting is an ability, and statted out tied to race in quite a few races. Most likely, it's scalar, so it would be an ad hoc modifier, but then again, granting it as a single ability means it gets more powerful as the creature gains HD (kind of like Power Attack does linearly more damage per level as BAB goes up...though bad example since spells really start to soar in the mid levels and skyrocket in the high levels, but you get the idea). That's only a +10 to transform into. IIRC from the wiz boards, Instantaneous (instead of Permanent) is x10, meaning nothing can reverse or supress it. Build an ubercreature, build another one of the opposite gender (assuming they are gendered, but so long as there are two so Ubercritter isn't The Ubercritter), and then Transform seed into it. It doesn't have to be Pun-pun, but I imagine if you gave yourself demilich magic immunity and Dragon type stats, with an Ethergaunt intelligence, you could clean house on just about any number of level 20 wizards, being so bold as to whack them with their own staves if you felt so inclined. Really once you have The Batcave of Epic R&D, it's not IF you kill them, it's how. Unless it's my SCM shadow miracle at will inside a mythal level 20, in which case it's invite them over to a planet to destroy it playing never-ending rocket tag :P

I think you and I are talking past each other.

I'm talking about the ways to get infinite mitigation, not what you do with once you have it.

Personally, my favorite thing to do with infinite mitigation is use the Conjure + Life + Fortify seeds to create a super creature with all the various badassness of Epic Spells at will as Extraordinary abilities, and then make one of it's abilities Instantaneous Mind switch. That way it becomes an old Wizard, and you become a badass with arbitrarily high stats and HD, which is slightly better than transform seed, since you can't turn into anything with more HD than you.

olentu
2009-09-20, 07:05 PM
IIRC from the wiz boards, Instantaneous (instead of Permanent) is x10, meaning nothing can reverse or supress it.

Hmm do you happen to recall where this would be listed (assuming of course that it is listed anywhere) as I can not remember where all the epic stuff is since it was distributed throughout several books.

I mean there are ways to get around the limitation but it would be nice to know where there is just a straight change to instantaneous duration.

taltamir
2009-09-20, 07:10 PM
You are thinking of the Conjure Seed + Life Seed + ect. But that's different, because it doesn't grant spells, so you can't use it for mitigation. First you use Permanent Summons to create a Couatl and then Solar Army of Mitigation to deal with the much larger DCs of creating creatures with Extraordinary abilities at will that are the equivalent of Epic spells.

Or maybe you are thinking Transformation, and that's cool, but it's not actually that great, since the DC is way higher to Permanent Transform a squirrel into a Couatl than it is to just Summon one.

I was considering all three... the only reason i went with the whole "create from scratch" via either transform or origin of species is because the OP arbitrarily decided that any creature you perma summon results in all the gods descending on you to kill you AND that creature not getting spells anymore.

Epic spells lets you make pun pun via a multiple routes which are essential mechanics of an entire core function found in one single book... it is unnerfable, you must simply throw out the entire system.

one correction though... 0 DC spells take 0 gold, 0 XP, and 1 day to research... no 0 days... because days are always rounded up to a min of one.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-20, 07:24 PM
Hmm do you happen to recall where this would be listed (assuming of course that it is listed anywhere) as I can not remember where all the epic stuff is since it was distributed throughout several books.

I mean there are ways to get around the limitation but it would be nice to know where there is just a straight change to instantaneous duration.

It was in the Epic threads on the Epic board, and most likely archive material. You might check the forum there if it indeed still exists. I think the specific thread was something like "Epic Spell Creativity" or somesuch. Also, technically it's homebrew, but virtually the entire community came to concensus on the vast majority of listed factors (which included stuff like metamagic factors, that sort of stuff that bending the raw properties of magic SHOULD be able to do).

taltamir
2009-09-20, 07:26 PM
plus the epic book is intolerably vague. The spell EXAMPLES given in it most carry an "ad hoc" adjustment and does things beyond the basic description of each seed...

Godskook
2009-09-20, 07:52 PM
Question: How much of an increase to the DC of Eidolon would it be to not receive a negative level just for casting the spell? I.e., it would work exactly as normal, except the amount of negative levels for creating an eidolon is not X, but X-1, where X is the Eidolon's level - 20, limited to your 'level'?

I hate being the last post on the page....

olentu
2009-09-20, 08:05 PM
It was in the Epic threads on the Epic board, and most likely archive material. You might check the forum there if it indeed still exists. I think the specific thread was something like "Epic Spell Creativity" or somesuch. Also, technically it's homebrew, but virtually the entire community came to concensus on the vast majority of listed factors (which included stuff like metamagic factors, that sort of stuff that bending the raw properties of magic SHOULD be able to do).

Ah well ad hoc is ad hoc and so knowing the thread would not be of to much help to me in most situations.

taltamir
2009-09-20, 08:09 PM
Ah well ad hoc is ad hoc and so knowing the thread would not be of to much help to me in most situations.

the majority of epic spells given in the epic handbook, the more core of the core... almost all of those have an ad hok factor.

tyckspoon
2009-09-20, 08:13 PM
So, because I have enough time to actually write this up now- attempting the challenge honestly, that is, not using infinite mitigation. There will be mitigation, because you frankly cannot do a damn thing with Epic seeds without it, it'll just be provided by the caster's own daily resources.

The Epic Wizard is a 21st level Grey Elven Generalist. No PrCs yet, just for initial simplicity. He has slapped around some Efreet to get +5 Inherent to all his stats (and so it is assumed the level 20 Wizards, with equal capability to do so, have also done such, so the bonuses should even out.) Significant gear is an Orange Ioun Stone, a Ring of Enduring Arcana, and a +1 Soulfire Mithril Bracer. There is something of a question here for the disposition of the rest of his money- a Rod of Excellent Magic is an amazing boon for anybody who isn't cheesing infinite mitigations. But it also costs 650,000 gp, which is around 2/3 of the given wealth for level 21. If that much on one item is permissible, he has one and no additional items of note (there will be some cash left over- if needed, I'll figure out just how much and see what else is needed.) If not, the rest of his cash is mostly assorted defensive items, such as a Ring of Freedom of Movement, and metamagic rods, especially a Greater Quicken.

For his Epic Animal's Stat buffs, his available mitigation is:
-2 Change target 'touch' to 'Personal'.
- 42, 6 4th-level slots provided by using all daily castings of Summon Monster IX to call Couatls.
- 15, 5 2nd levels slots provided by Summon Monster VIII for Lillends (1 8th level slot is reserved for the daily Mind Blank.)
- 20 XP burn if he has the Rod of Excellent Magic.

That provides 59/79 points of Spellcraft DC to play with. Remove the 17 for the base cost of the Fortify seed and there's 42/62 points of effect to play with before the spell goes cost-positive again.

Factors used: Reduce to Standard action cast time, +20. I am using temporary allies to provide mitigation, so I cannot afford the other easy route of increasing cast time (I would have to make the spell take 20 days to cast to meet the same mitigation I can get by using my slots for summons in one day anyway. Not too much of a problem if you have a time-variable Genesis to hang out in, admittedly, but in the aim of making this practical in the widest number of games, you don't want to spend that long on a spell.) 22/42 points Spellcraft remain to 0.

Increase bonus by +11: Grants a total +12 Enhancement bonus to (Stat), +22. 0/20 points Spellcraft remain to 0. (You might notice here why the Rod of Excellent Magic is so valuable.)

If I do not have a Rod of Excellent Magic at this point, the only practical way to use this spell is to make it Permanent duration while it's still at DC 0. If I do, I instead stack Increase Duration until the spellcraft DC is.. let's call it 6. That'll be 13 instances of +100% duration, which makes a Fortify seed spell last almost 12 days. So, three days out of every 12 the Wizard retires to his sanctum to cast Epic Cat's Grace, Epic Bear's Endurance, and Epic Fox's Cunning. In the remaining 9 he adventures. His bonuses over his non-Epic opponents at this point are: 1 higher caster level, +6 Dex, +6 Con, and +6 Int. Everything else can be imitated pre-Epic (that's really not very impressive for fighting three level 20 Wizards, but I'm trying not to cheese this junk here. The stat numbers are all 10 larger if you use the Rod of Excellent Magic for stat increases and just make the spells Permanent.)

When he encounters his opposing Wizards, his Epic spell will be a Dispel. Factors are:
Reduce to Standard action, +20.
Add two Targets, +20.
^ these two are absolutely necessary.
Increase Dispel Check by 20, + 20 < yields a dispel check of d20 + 30, which should reliably dispel a non-Epic wizard's spells, especially if Arcane Mastery is taken to allow Taking 10 on this dispel check.
Yielding a Spellcraft DC of 79. I have to mitigate that down to the 5-10 range to make it affordable to develop. I get:
-20, Rod of Excellent Magic for XP burn.
-44, 44d6 backlash damage (average of 154 damage taken. I gain 126 from my Epic Bear's Endurance spell, plus at least 11 temp from a False Life means my 'real' HP pool suffers only 17 points damage. I'd love to know if there's a more effective temp-HP granting spell than False Life to use here.)

That's 64 mitigation, leaving me a Spellcraft DC of 15. Too expensive still. I don't want to reduce the Dispel check, and I can't reduce anything else and have the spell do what it needs to do, so I'm going to take some real XP burn to cast this (not to worry, I should recoup it handily when I kill three dangerous level 20 opponents.) I'll have it burn another 1,000 XP, no worse than casting Gate. Final Spellcraft DC: 5. Development costs: 45,000 GP and 1,800 XP. 1,000 XP used to cast.

The strategy should be obvious from here- engage your challengers and cast your dispel. Hopefully you roll well and your Dex edge lets you win initiative; if not, hope your normal defensive suite of spells lets you survive whoever goes first (it should, since your spells are at CL 26 for purposes of being dispelled, so they'll need a dedicated dispeller to have good chances of stripping your defense.) After you fire your Dispel you should have removed all of their personally-cast buffs, which will open them to being eliminated in any number of ways. Make your Swift action count, here- I'll admit I'm not sure what the best option would be. You want to stay away from movement-restricting and [Death] effects, since those are most likely to come from items (on the other hand, if one of them was visibly using something like Veil of Undeath it might be worth using [Death].) Mind-Affecting might be on the table again, since Mind Blank is most typically self-cast.

olentu
2009-09-20, 08:14 PM
the majority of epic spells given in the epic handbook, the more core of the core... almost all of those have an ad hok factor.

Yes but should I need to use one I would have to argue for it on its own merits and while the thread might give me some arguments to go on if I can not come up with an argument on my own I obviously do not have a clear enough reason for the DC modifier to be what it is.

speeddemon
2009-09-20, 08:22 PM
I did. I made a set of epic spells to easily kill the two level 20 wizards. I also provided a method for infinite epic spell mitigation without using gate or any xp at all.

What is your spell combo then?

taltamir
2009-09-20, 08:23 PM
and way to go tyckspoon for actually rising to the occasion and showing how epic CAN be use like a dumb fighter to just bludgeon the opponents into a smear in regular combat. Rather than, say, send a thousand of your permanently summoned greater demons/celestials to kill them instead. Or use pyramid scheme to godify youself.

quick_comment
2009-09-20, 08:23 PM
Shadow Ritual
Base Seed: Shadow
Effect: Makes a duplicate of the caster for 24 hours. I dont have lost empire of faerun on me, but its a pretty easy spell.

Epic Ward:
Wards against foresight, shapechange in a 100ft radius
Permanent (still cheap)

Epic Ward Ward
Wards against epic ward in a personal radius.
Permanent (still cheap)


Die!
Base Seed: Summon (DC 14)
Summon a unique individual: +60
Seed: Destroy(DC 29)
+50d6 damage (+100) (total of 120 dice)
Seed: Dispel(DC 19)
Dispel check at 1d20+50 (+40)
Other:
Increase die size to 20 (+8) (8,10,12,20)
+100 on save: +200
Additional target: +10
Subtotal: 480
Mitigation:
Increase casting time to 10 minutes (-18)
25 Duplicates each donating an epic spell slot (-475)
Total DC: 5

The Die! spell summons two individuals from anywhere at all (Will save DC 110 to negate). After they are summoned, they are subjected to a dispel effect (at d20+50), then take 50d20 damage (fort save DC 110 to negate).


The wizard casts shadow ritual once, then the shadow duplicate casts it, until you have 25 duplicates. Then he casts the spell on the targets. There is a small chance one makes the save. If that happens, he just casts the spells again tomorrow. If somehow the target fails the save vs summon but survives, then the 26 epic wizards get their surprise round. (And you cannot cast celerity during the surprise round because foresight is shut down via the epic ward.)

Wow, right from this thead. Who would have thought to look there?

speeddemon
2009-09-20, 08:29 PM
Wow, right from this thead. Who would have thought to look there?

Yes good for you. I however am trying to win without using infinite time and rituals to summon, create, conjure, call, or whatever you like to call it, creatures that can provide the spell slots for you to cast your uber ritual.

I on the other hand am trying to win on my own strength, in a situation where I don't have infinite time to cast an uber ritual. What you did is the simplest of baby epic spell combos. I'm trying to create an epic spell combo that works with no prep time before the battle.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-20, 08:35 PM
Tyckspoon, if you take Mother Cyst, you can cast Necrotic Empowerment. That can give you +8 Int (and Dex, and Wis) pre-epic, along with a healthy Fort boost and +100 hp. Sure beats the hell out of False Life. Level 8 spell, also accessible as a Transmutation in ToAL :)

EDIT : Oh, and here's one - Conjure seed to create something wickedly heavy. Like neutron star heavy. Make it pie shaped, with some space before the slice collides with the whole. And make sure to have a readied action to teleport out immediately after or a pris sphere quickened right before the epic. Might not kill them, but kiss that planet goodbye :P

DISCLAIMER : Yes, that is TO, and no, wizards shouldn't know how to do that, but it IS possible within the rules, since it's nonmagical and unattended.

olentu
2009-09-20, 08:50 PM
Tyckspoon, if you take Mother Cyst, you can cast Necrotic Empowerment. That can give you +8 Int (and Dex, and Wis) pre-epic, along with a healthy Fort boost and +100 hp. Sure beats the hell out of False Life. Level 8 spell, also accessible as a Transmutation in ToAL :)

EDIT : Oh, and here's one - Conjure seed to create something wickedly heavy. Like neutron star heavy. Make it pie shaped, with some space before the slice collides with the whole. And make sure to have a readied action to teleport out immediately after or a pris sphere quickened right before the epic. Might not kill them, but kiss that planet goodbye :P

DISCLAIMER : Yes, that is TO, and no, wizards shouldn't know how to do that, but it IS possible within the rules, since it's nonmagical and unattended.

Eh I suppose it depends on how the physics of the D&D world work.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-20, 09:32 PM
I'm working on an Arcane Archer dip spellcaster now. Really the only choice is what do I do with my two epic spells, since I can pretty well always go first (there we go, one can be a super initiative and dex buff). Two AMF+MDJ+Tenser's Transformation arrows each (fired inside an Ex time stop, so they won't be going off or losing potency before they are used), followed by disintegrates should do the trick. No contingencies+adamantine arrows in case they have adamantine hats+no spells even if they get around the AMF means they'll be sitting ducks. Even if they manage to have IHS, they're still dealing with a good number of their items being nonfunctional, and it can only remove one of the two (AMF or Transformation), and Transformation is delivered via Imbue Arrow instead of Smiting Spell like the other two. With no buffs, I doubt they've got the Fort to survive a disintegrate, especially since I'll have the slots to empower and/or maximize it. Assuming the latter, that's 240 damage, and with remaining actions it's a simple power word kill each after that.

olentu
2009-09-20, 09:38 PM
I'm working on an Arcane Archer dip spellcaster now. Really the only choice is what do I do with my two epic spells, since I can pretty well always go first (there we go, one can be a super initiative and dex buff). Two AMF+MDJ+Tenser's Transformation arrows each (fired inside an Ex time stop, so they won't be going off or losing potency before they are used), followed by disintegrates should do the trick. No contingencies+adamantine arrows in case they have adamantine hats+no spells even if they get around the AMF means they'll be sitting ducks. Even if they manage to have IHS, they're still dealing with a good number of their items being nonfunctional, and it can only remove one of the two (AMF or Transformation), and Transformation is delivered via Imbue Arrow instead of Smiting Spell like the other two. With no buffs, I doubt they've got the Fort to survive a disintegrate, especially since I'll have the slots to empower and/or maximize it. Assuming the latter, that's 240 damage, and with remaining actions it's a simple power word kill each after that.

I thought that imbue arrow only allowed for an area spell.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-20, 09:43 PM
I thought that imbue arrow only allowed for an area spell.

Oh hell, that's right. Tenser's is from tacking a glyph seal onto the arrow. If it lands in their square, they are affected, and Tenser's doesn't have a Ref save. So autoberserk on the archmage, who just got the worst buff in history (credit to Doc Rock's War Weaver guide, whom my entry was inspired by).

olentu
2009-09-20, 10:01 PM
Oh hell, that's right. Tenser's is from tacking a glyph seal onto the arrow. If it lands in their square, they are affected, and Tenser's doesn't have a Ref save. So autoberserk on the archmage, who just got the worst buff in history (credit to Doc Rock's War Weaver guide, whom my entry was inspired by).

You know this just seems like extra work since you have already converted one personal range spell to touch why not just do the same for the transformation or did the method you used require that the spell be a spell with an area.

Though since you are using smiting spell where are you getting the EX time stop that allows one to target a creature with an attack.

Also it might be useful to use transcend mortality.

Edit: Since attacking creatures in a time stop would be really nice.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-20, 10:13 PM
You know this just seems like extra work since you have already converted one personal range spell to touch why not just do the same for the transformation or did the method you used require that the spell be a spell with an area.

Though since you are using smiting spell where are you getting the EX time stop that allows one to target a creature with an attack.

Also it might be useful to use transcend mortality.

Edit: Since attacking creatures in a time stop would be really nice.

Ex Time Stop is gotten through Planar Touchstone (Breaching Obelisk I think is the one), and I'm not "attacking" per se, so much as dropping the effects on them. They will all be fired the last round of it (assuming they aren't pulled through an existing portal in my quiver from a timeless demiplane), since both effects (smiting spell and imbue arrow) must be used right after they are activated, but won't activate in a Time Stop (because nothing does, not even fire arrows). If I wanted to be a real ****, I'd pre-roll all my attack rolls, letting the arrows hang in mid air using my attack roll (since arrow fire is resolved as soon as it is performed, and inside a time stop, all targets are immobile, thus flat-footed and easy targets. Hell one could argue you could line up a coup de grace, even). And even if the DM won't let me fire AT them, I CAN fire at their squares, making them enraged spell-bereft idiots with virtually nothing of their buffs/items left. Once they're kill crazed with staves, it's either fill them full of Maw of Chaos arrows with my additional quickened save debuffs (aka enervation and company) or mass debuff+disintegrates, quickening an unluck each if I have time or feel they might still pass the save based on what capabilities remaining they reveal whilst nilbuffed.

Godskook
2009-09-20, 10:23 PM
@Kell, the obvious answer to putting spell casters inside of an AMF is probably to then follow it with some kind of forcecage-like approach to killing them.

olentu
2009-09-20, 10:40 PM
Ex Time Stop is gotten through Planar Touchstone (Breaching Obelisk I think is the one), and I'm not "attacking" per se, so much as dropping the effects on them. They will all be fired the last round of it (assuming they aren't pulled through an existing portal in my quiver from a timeless demiplane), since both effects (smiting spell and imbue arrow) must be used right after they are activated, but won't activate in a Time Stop (because nothing does, not even fire arrows). If I wanted to be a real ****, I'd pre-roll all my attack rolls, letting the arrows hang in mid air using my attack roll (since arrow fire is resolved as soon as it is performed, and inside a time stop, all targets are immobile, thus flat-footed and easy targets. Hell one could argue you could line up a coup de grace, even). And even if the DM won't let me fire AT them, I CAN fire at their squares, making them enraged spell-bereft idiots with virtually nothing of their buffs/items left. Once they're kill crazed with staves, it's either fill them full of Maw of Chaos arrows with my additional quickened save debuffs (aka enervation and company) or mass debuff+disintegrates, quickening an unluck each if I have time or feel they might still pass the save based on what capabilities remaining they reveal whilst nilbuffed.

Smiting spell requires that one hit the target and since one can not target people with attacks I do not see how that would work.

Also there is somewhat of a problem since a glyph of warding only activates when a creature enters, passes, or opens the warded object in this case. So since I doubt that the enemies are going to be entering or opening your arrows one would have to use the fact that an arrow shot past a target might count as a target passing the arrow however without striking the target the smiting spells would not go off.

Also since there is no limitation on one interacting with objects that are not in the possession of others then the target would be passing the arrows during the time stop and they would presumably be invulnerable to the effects your item that acts as the glyph of warding spell during the time stop and so even though the tenser's would be cast on them they would be immune to it (and of course this only would work since technically it is the item that is targeting them and not the character). It would have to be an area spell with a duration and without a target in the glyph but presumably one would first need to remove all their protections from the area spell that would be cast and so the disjunction approach would need to be modified a bit so that it is not going off in the time stop.

tyckspoon
2009-09-20, 10:42 PM
hmm.. not sure how you're pulling off that many arrows+effects, Kell. Mind breaking it down for those of us who aren't as familiar with the trick? In particular, the Breaching Obelisk's ability only provides you one round and still has the restriction on directly targeting your opponents, and Imbue Arrow takes a standard action to use. You seem to have many more arrows+imbue applications going than you have actions to use them with.

olentu
2009-09-20, 10:45 PM
hmm.. not sure how you're pulling off that many arrows+effects, Kell. Mind breaking it down for those of us who aren't as familiar with the trick? In particular, the Breaching Obelisk's ability only provides you one round and still has the restriction on directly targeting your opponents, and Imbue Arrow takes a standard action to use. You seem to have many more arrows+imbue applications going than you have actions to use them with.

I am thinking it is first convert disjunction and antimagic field into touch range spells. Second place glyph seal on non magical arrow. Third add smiting spell to the disjunction and antimagic field and cast them on the arrows.

Edit: Imbue arrow does not seem to be used at all.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-20, 10:47 PM
Kelp, getting people to realize that the gods can't fling around Life and Death is a lost cause, it seems. Especially since they can't even wrap their heads around the concept that an epic spellcaster will be neither mortal or susceptible to death effects.

Death effects? By level twenty? Yeah...no. Even ignoring the many different templates and prestige classes that give you immunity to death effects, there are simple spells like Death Ward reasonably available. There are a *lot* of ways to avoid death effects even before you get to epic levels. If you're into epic levels, have epic spellcasting, and haven't bothered to negate that annoying side effect, death, you're doing something terribly wrong, and deserve to be slain.

I agree, fighting a god is not an insta-loss...not if you've prepared properly. And you don't survive to be an epic level wizard without learning the value of preparation.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-20, 11:13 PM
Well, as I previously pointed out. Not using infinite Mitigation, or Gate, or Planar Binding, Or the Summon Seed, all of which grant such:

Dragonborn Fire Elf, Elven Generalist Domain (Conjuration or something else good, best if made custom) Domain Wizard. Optimizes all the usual stuff. Will avoid taking Tainted Scholar, taking it away from opponents, same for Incantatrix or other Persisting methods, also any form of transformation at all (IE Shapechange or Transformation seed), or any WBL increasing tricks or CL loops. By voluntarily giving up all of these, takes it away from similar optimization opponents. All non epic Items + better of them to make my opponents feel bad, except of course for enhancement items, as will be shown.

Will assume that PB for all Wizards ends up creating 18/14/14, which will be Int/Dex/Con

Preparation done on closed Demiplane, created by Genesis.

Epic spells:

First, Fortify Seed, permanently increase Age:

DC 219, mitigated by casting time, used in at earliest Age. +102 years to each age category, total of +306 years. Easily enough time to still be sitting on a net gain after All future spells.

For Permanent Duration: -220 mitigation by extending casting time. 220/5=44.

The DC for a spell before Making Permanent, to still be DC 0 after mitigation.

DC 44 before Permanent spells:

1) Reveal Seed: Grants Permanent True Seeing but better and overrides all non epic spells, even Superior Invis, without CL checks. Also identifies Secret Doors. DC 120 before Mitigation. Takes 50 days and 11 minutes to cast.
2) Conceal Seed: DC 130 before mitigation, mitigated to zero with casting time of 55 days and 11 minutes. Permanent Greater Invisibility, but better, ignores non epic spells like True Seeing. Also Permanent Immunity to all Divinations that are non Epic. Epic ones get CL check.

3) Fortify Seed Part 1 (All non AC boosters, or AC and something else Boosters discussed here).

The Various Fortify Seed uses not relating to AC are:
Grant SR 29.
+4 Inherent bonus to SR
+14 Enhancement Bonus to SR.
Result: SR 47.

Grant DR 7/Epic

Grant DR 14/Magic

+14 Enhancement bonus to Each stat, each saving throw.
+4 Inherent Bonus to Each Saving Throw.
Result: +22 to each saving throw over what non Epic character could have. +4 to Init over what non epics have. +84 HP over non Epic Wizards (Also, already have 7 more HP from extra HD). +4 to saving throw DCs over them.

Finally, a non Permanent one:
Using CL 27, may cast 17 summons before taking one minute to cast spell, time for 11 Couatls and 6 Lillends. Total Mitigation provided by Summons -95.

Fortify Seed:
DC 17 to add 1 temp HP.
+200% duration +4
Duration: 60 or 80 hours, not important.
DC 21.
+38 Temp HP: DC 97
Mitigation: -95 from Ritual. -2 to reduce from touch to Personal.
Result: +39 Temp HP.

4) Ward.

To create a Ward that Permanently protects against a specific 9th level spell is DC 150. You can have as many as you have time for. For this purpose, let's say that the spells Warded against are:

Disjunction/Dispel Magic/Dispelling Screen/Antimagic Field/Arcane Turmoil/Greater Versions of any that exist/Superior Versions of any that exist/Chain Dispel/Anything else that dispels/Epic Dispel Seed spells.

Additionally, will be Permanently Warded against slashing/bludgeoning/piercing for 20 damage, and this is different from, and effectively stacks with DR.

Also warded against each of the five energy types for 35 damage, and this is different from the immunity that he will already have from other spells, in that things that bypass immunity, such as Searing Spell, do nothing to bypass the Ward.

Also of note, if you cast repeated Wards against something, they actually stack because of the wording. I won't be abusing that to become completely immune to all physical damage and all energy types under a billion, because I am limiting the cheese of Permanent buffs here.

5) Armor Seed and Fortify Part 2, the AC edition:
The following bonuses to AC will be granted:

Earlier boost to Dex +4 over the possible level of none Epics.
+19 Armor bonus
+19 Natural Armor Bonus
+4 Inherent Bonus to Natural Armor
+14 Enhancement Bonus to Natural Armor
+4 Deflection
+4 Divine
+4 Luck
+4 Moral
+4 Insight
+4 Profane
+4 Holy
+4 Vile
+4 Exalted
+4 Competence Bonus
+4 any other bonus in the game, but let's not get into that.

Result: +100 to regular AC, about half of which a non Epic Wizard can match.
+44 to touch AC, Basically non of which can be matched by non Epic Wizards.

Final Result without casting Any Epic Spells the day of the contest (Yet).

HP: 39 temp and 281.
AC of 115, Touch AC of 59.
Saves of +36/+36/+31 before taking base saves or luck or moral or competence bonuses into account. +41/+41/+36 against spells.
+35 to Init.
Ward 20 against physical, 35 against energy
DR 7 Epic, DR 14 Magic
SR 47 (Even with as much CL boosting as I can do that can reasonably be Permanent and Assay Resistance, still Taking ten with the feat fail. Adding in Spell Penetration and Greater, and the Item, it succeeds)

Better True Seeing than them, Pierces all their stuff. Permanent.
Better Invisibility than them, Ignores their stuff. Permanent.
Can not be Dispelled by anything they cast, ignores AMFs, even his own.

Stats: Str 27, Dex 33, Con 33, Int 44, Wis 27, Cha 25.
Or, if it matters:
Age categories: 26/32/32/45/28/26
24/30/30/46/29/27
21/27/27/47/30/28

Strategy for Victory? Cast AMF, get in there and pummel them to death.

Alternatively. Grapple to Death.

Alternatively. Develop a Slay Seed that you use when they are in the AMF.

Alternatively, use your better numbers to kill them while you sit in the AMF.

Alternatively, use a Dispel Seed spell that destroys them.

Alternatively, make a really long casting spell using the Summon Seed that summons them all, dispels, then Slays.

Use any strategy you want. But the most important one is to cast buff spells on yourself, be immune to everything, and then punch them in their whiny Wizard faces, since you are immune to AMF, and they are not.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-20, 11:35 PM
To all above, I'm finalizing the level 20 version of him (through ACF's and a different base of power, I'm getting BAB 18/CL 20, with 9th level spells, yay!), then going to see what I want for that last level. Once the full build is made, I'll post it, and then fully elaborate on the dirty tricks. I'm still fully familiarizing myself with them, and Doc Rock was the one who originally included them in his War Weaver handbook that hopefully is/will be posted here (or at least someplace other than 339's lamer arse). The idea however is that dispelling screen stops everything, I can prebuff myself with the eldritch tapestry using only a single move action, and really, I won't need Breaching Obelisk on this guy, so assume normal timestop. Dispelling Screen however, will not stop my arrows, which can carry such things as a glyph seal/cannister (tired atm and accidentally navigated away from the page it's on...bleh) in something that will definitely break (like...glass) from impact with ANYTHING, and also still carry area effect, like AMF, from either smiting spell or imbue arrow. Dropping an AMF won't violate time stop, as they'll be coming up into it, and actually, the forcecage idea is pretty snazzy. Let's say fire the AMF arrow, while casting a quickened forcecage (MM Rod, used via a casting glove, though one of the cheaper ones with extra effects to boot). Only need to do it twice, and that's the minimum duration of time stop. If immunity to death effects is always Su, the epic spell used is easy : a slay seed. There's little way they'll make that save without their buffs that they can't renew, and in the event they DO survive, I can just fling Orbs at them until they die. Oh, and going off the average result of time stop, being three round, any adamantine hats they may have will be summarily removed via shatter or it's ilk first (or failing that, hell...Twinned TK). I see this as a better way looting-wise, since it'll preserve their nice shinies, and if I have a ring of spellguard (I think that's the one), I can declare myself my own ally and as such am immune to my own spells, specifically my own AMF.

Again, quick and dirty so far, but once I have the full thing fleshed out, I'll post the full build+tactics. If this is enough to be considered a victory, cool, icing on the cake :-)

sonofzeal
2009-09-20, 11:58 PM
Kelpstrand gets upgraded to full victory! I'm sure my approval means ever so much to him. =P

KellKheraptis, I look forward to your final version!

Kyrthain
2009-09-21, 06:54 AM
Technically, this thread is to prove that epic casting is full of cheese, right?
Not proving that lvl21 wiz is tougher than 3 level 20's. Therefore, what if I could come up with a plan that involved an epic sorcerer instead?