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sonofzeal
2009-09-19, 09:00 PM
The spellcaster creates a finite plane with limited access: a demiplane. Demiplanes created by this power are very small, very minor planes.

A character can only cast this spell while on the Ethereal Plane. When he or she casts the spell, a local density fluctuation precipitates the creation of a demiplane. At first, the fledgling plane grows at a rate of 1 foot in radius per day to an initial maximum radius of 180 feet as it rapidly draws substance from surrounding ethereal vapors and protomatter.

The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize. The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. This spell cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth). The spellcaster must add these things in some other fashion if he or she desires. Once the basic demiplane reaches its maximum size, the spellcaster can continue to cast this spell to enlarge the demiplane, adding another 180 feet of radius to the demiplane each time.
What, here, lets the caster set planar traits? "Environment" would generally refer to physical characteristics, with the following list (atmosphere, water, etc) seeming to be clarifications on that. Is there some other text that I'm missing?

sonofzeal
2009-09-19, 10:08 PM
....anyone? I honestly think I'm missing something here, since it's one of those pieces of household wisdom around these boards, but I just can't find it.

Sir_Elderberry
2009-09-19, 10:09 PM
"Most any desire the caster can visualize."

I can visualize a timeless plane. Particularly if I, as a high-level wizard, have already been to one.

sonofzeal
2009-09-19, 10:32 PM
"Most any desire the caster can visualize."

I can visualize a timeless plane. Particularly if I, as a high-level wizard, have already been to one.
Yes, but that's in reference to "environment", which doesn't seem (from the list of examples given) to encompass planar traits. Hence my confusion.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-19, 10:42 PM
Yes, but that's in reference to "environment", which doesn't seem (from the list of examples given) to encompass planar traits. Hence my confusion.

1) Every Plane must have Planar Traits.
2) When you create a Plane, it must have Planar Traits.
3) Environment is a catch all term for 'characteristics of' an area.
4) Environment includes planar traits.

For further example, Psionic Genesis says:

"You determine the environment within the demiplane when you manifest genesis, reflecting most any desire you can visualize." And no where does it say anything about being able to choose Planar traits. But it does say "You can’t manipulate the time trait on your demiplane; its time trait is as the Material Plane."

If you can't choose any of it's planar traits at all, why did they call out one trait as not being malleable?

sonofzeal
2009-09-19, 10:57 PM
1) Every Plane must have Planar Traits.
2) When you create a Plane, it must have Planar Traits.
3) Environment is a catch all term for 'characteristics of' an area.
4) Environment includes planar traits.

For further example, Psionic Genesis says:

"You determine the environment within the demiplane when you manifest genesis, reflecting most any desire you can visualize." And no where does it say anything about being able to choose Planar traits. But it does say "You can’t manipulate the time trait on your demiplane; its time trait is as the Material Plane."

If you can't choose any of it's planar traits at all, why did they call out one trait as not being malleable?
Possibly because it was such a popular exploit?

Personally, I think the wording is key here. "The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane". I wouldn't talk about the Closed property of a plane as part of the "environment within" that plane. It's not part of the "environment" in the sense given by the context, and it's not precisely "within" either. It's a property of the plane itself, not something that's inside it, and that's a rather different kettle of fish. Also, Flowing Time and Closed traits are not something the caster can "visualize" in the strict sense, as they're not things that can be perceived visually. I know that's rather nitpicky, but I don't think you can argue that RAI supports you (or they would have mentioned), so all you can fall back on is a legalistic reading of the RAW, and if even that doesn't quite support you, then I'd have to call the matter settled.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-19, 11:10 PM
Possibly because it was such a popular exploit?

Personally, I think the wording is key here. "The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane". I wouldn't talk about the Closed property of a plane as part of the "environment within" that plane. It's not part of the "environment" in the sense given by the context, and it's not precisely "within" either. It's a property of the plane itself, not something that's inside it, and that's a rather different kettle of fish. Also, Flowing Time and Closed traits are not something the caster can "visualize" in the strict sense, as they're not things that can be perceived visually. I know that's rather nitpicky, but I don't think you can argue that RAI supports you (or they would have mentioned), so all you can fall back on is a legalistic reading of the RAW, and if even that doesn't quite support you, then I'd have to call the matter settled.

Actually, I can totally point out the RAI supports me.

Clearly Psionic Genesis is not meant to allow you to set the time trait.

But yet, it clearly is supposed to allow you to dictate all other planar traits, like being a closed plane.

Clearly, given this fact, Genesis, the Arcane Version, is meant to allow you to set the planar traits of the plane exactly like the Psionic version, except the difference in mention of time trait, meaning that it is intended to allow manipulation of the time trait.

sonofzeal
2009-09-19, 11:35 PM
I can certainly see that possible interpretation. However, due to the nature of the spells and which was written first, I'd be inclined to go in the opposite direction - Psionic Genesis is a clarification on Arcane Genesis, and that one line in particular was to quash an excessively broken exploit. If you were intended to be able to manipulate planar traits, you'd think the term would come up at least once, but it doesn't. The fact that it's not explicitly addressed, combined with the fact that it boosts the power of the spell tremendously, implies to me that it wasn't on their minds at all when they wrote the spell. And if it wasn't on their minds, that means it wasn't their intent.

I'll only grant RAI if you can come up with a relevant FAQ ruling; I know FAQ is a rather spotty source of information, but it's also one of the only recourses we have in this sort of situation.

Roland St. Jude
2009-09-19, 11:41 PM
Interestingly, there doesn't seem to be much middle ground here. If the wizard can't choose the planar traits, how are they determined? Random? Same as the plane it was created from - ethereal? Either one grossly weakens the spell.

I think this is one example of where the rules, be it RAW or RAI, just suck at stating a reasonably powered spell. I think it has to be resolved by houserule/interpretation.

(Yes, I know that does nothing to help determine the RAW. My opinion on that is that they wrote it in a way most reasonably interpreted the way Sir_E and Kelpstrand are stating without any clear intent (RAI) in their minds. But upon later thinking about it they probably intended or prefer sonofzeal's interpretation.)

Bogardan_Mage
2009-09-19, 11:43 PM
I can certainly see that possible interpretation. However, due to the nature of the spells and which was written first, I'd be inclined to go in the opposite direction - Psionic Genesis is a clarification on Arcane Genesis, and that one line in particular was to quash an excessively broken exploit. If you were intended to be able to manipulate planar traits, you'd think the term would come up at least once, but it doesn't. The fact that it's not explicitly addressed, combined with the fact that it boosts the power of the spell tremendously, implies to me that it wasn't on their minds at all when they wrote the spell. And if it wasn't on their minds, that means it wasn't their intent.
Conversely, though, if the line in Psionic Genesis was to fix a problem with Arcane Genesis not being intended to manipulate planar traits, why single out only one type of planar trait? Obviously it was on the minds of the people who wrote that line, so your interpretation doesn't really mesh. The only way it makes sense is if it was very much intended that the caster manipulate planar traits, but the "no time traits" clause was added to fix one specific exploit that had to do with one specific type of planar trait.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-19, 11:43 PM
I can certainly see that possible interpretation. However, due to the nature of the spells and which was written first, I'd be inclined to go in the opposite direction - Psionic Genesis is a clarification on Arcane Genesis, and that one line in particular was to quash an excessively broken exploit. If you were intended to be able to manipulate planar traits, you'd think the term would come up at least once, but it doesn't. The fact that it's not explicitly addressed, combined with the fact that it boosts the power of the spell tremendously, implies to me that it wasn't on their minds at all when they wrote the spell. And if it wasn't on their minds, that means it wasn't their intent.

I'll only grant RAI if you can come up with a relevant FAQ ruling; I know FAQ is a rather spotty source of information, but it's also one of the only recourses we have in this sort of situation.

I don't particularly care whether you 'grant' RAI, since you have made abundantly clear that you don't care what the rules actually are, or what they are intended to be, merely what you would prefer they be.

But as for "Psionic Genesis is a clarification on Arcane" They have a way for clarifying. It is called errata. They have never felt the need to insert the line into Arcane Genesis, despite knowing that it is used for that.

More to the point, how you can claim with a straight face:

1) Psionic Genesis is not allowed to adjust any planar traits at all.
2) They made an explicit statement that you aren't allowed to adjust time, for no reason at all.

Is beyond me. If they didn't want you adjusting Planar Traits, why wouldn't they just say "You may not set the Planar Traits, they are of the Material Plane" instead of "You may not set the Time Trait it is Material" in a way that is 100% clear that you can determine all the other Planar Traits, such as Closed Plane.


I think this is one example of where the rules, be it RAW or RAI, just suck at stating a reasonably powered spell. I think it has to be resolved by houserule/interpretation.

I agree fully, except that I think the errata process exists for a reason, and I believe the following things:

1) They (not clearly) intended for you to set your own Planar Traits, but had not considered time.
2) As evidenced by Psionic Genesis, they clearly (as opposed to Arcane) intended for you to set all the Planar Traits except time.
3) Because of the obvious intention of 2, it makes 1 including time logically the only correct reading.
4) When they wrote 2, they could have easily errataed 1 to be the same, and they should have.
5) They should clearly state in errata that the Planar Traits are set by the Caster, except the Time Trait, even though it is implicit in the description of Psionic, because Explicit is better.

Gralamin
2009-09-20, 12:09 AM
Actually, I can totally point out the RAI supports me.

Clearly Psionic Genesis is not meant to allow you to set the time trait.

But yet, it clearly is supposed to allow you to dictate all other planar traits, like being a closed plane.

Clearly, given this fact, Genesis, the Arcane Version, is meant to allow you to set the planar traits of the plane exactly like the Psionic version, except the difference in mention of time trait, meaning that it is intended to allow manipulation of the time trait.

The Arcane Version was statted out in Deities and Demigods, a 3.0 Book. Psionic Genesis was statted out similarly in the Psionics Handbook. The Expanded Psionics Handbook (A 3.5 book) explicitly removed the ability to set Time Traits. Thus, I argue (And enforce, in my games), that the Psionic Genesis is the only proper RAW for Genesis in 3.5. Your argument ("The Arcane version is meant to allow you to alter the time trait") makes no sense, when given with the framework of time: You cannot draw anything about a 3.0 spell from a similar 3.5 spell / power.

olentu
2009-09-20, 12:12 AM
The Arcane Version was statted out in Deities and Demigods, a 3.0 Book. Psionic Genesis was statted out similarly in the Psionics Handbook. The Expanded Psionics Handbook (A 3.5 book) explicitly removed the ability to set Time Traits. Thus, I argue (And enforce, in my games), that the Psionic Genesis is the only proper RAW for Genesis in 3.5. Your argument ("The Arcane version is meant to allow you to alter the time trait") makes no sense, when given with the framework of time: You cannot draw anything about a 3.0 spell from a similar 3.5 spell / power.

I believe that deities and demigods was given an update.

Ichneumon
2009-09-20, 12:15 AM
Even if you could change the time traits, in what way could you abuse it? I mean, sure, you could do very much with it, but for a 9th level spell you can expect such things, right?

Xenogears
2009-09-20, 12:18 AM
I thought Genesis was from the Epic Lvl Handbook actually. Maybe I'm wrong but I read through Dieties and Demigods a million times and don't recall seeing it but my copy is missing so I can't check.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-20, 12:18 AM
You cannot draw anything about a 3.0 spell from a similar 3.5 spell / power.

You can use anything 3.0 that has not been updated to 3.5.

There is no 3.5 spell Genesis. (Well, there is, the updated Deities and Demigods one that is released in the SRD).

Therefore, you use the 3.0 updated to 3.5.

Claiming that the existence of Psionic Power negates the existence of the 3.0 spell is silly.

If a Psionic power were printed tomorrow called "Knockdown" that would not invalidate the 3.0 feat. They can't invalidate things that are different from themselves.

tyckspoon
2009-09-20, 12:32 AM
Even if you could change the time traits, in what way could you abuse it? I mean, sure, you could do very much with it, but for a 9th level spell you can expect such things, right?

It's a little hard to make use of it in active combat, but that's what you've got Time Stop for. Out of combat, screwy time ratios are ridiculous (I can never remember what exactly fast-time and slow-time actually mean compared to the Material's time rate, so just assume you picked whatever one actually does what you want in these examples). Say you've recently been through a pretty rough few fights, or just some really unusual situations, and you had to burn a bunch of scrolls. Being the prepared sort of Wizard that you are, you want to replace them. But that'll take you a couple of weeks, and the party only has/wants to take one day's rest. If you have a Genesis plane where you control time, that's not a problem. You hop off to your plane and scribe two weeks worth of scrolls in half a day and get back in time to participate in the night's bar fight with your party.

Or maybe you've just gone Epic, and you've made your first Epic Spell. You mitigated it down to DC 10 or so, so it's nice and cheap to develop. But to do that, you had to make it take 100 days to cast. That's.. pretty near useless. Unless you happen to have a Genesis plane, where you can go and do it and only lose a day on the Material plane.

Or maybe you're just really really bored and want to know what the Material plane will be like in a thousand years. Hop in your Genesis, sit around, and come back out in a week.

olentu
2009-09-20, 12:32 AM
You can use anything 3.0 that has not been updated to 3.5.

Using this would however give some strange results when unupdated DR and such get through.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-09-20, 12:55 AM
Using this would however give some strange results when unupdated DR and such get through.

DR has been updated, so when using 3.0 monsters you'd change their DR to the 3.5 standards using the conversion booklets, in the same way a 3.0 monster would use 3.5 versions of feats like Power Attack.

sonofzeal
2009-09-20, 01:02 AM
I still have a hard time believing they could have simultaneously intended manipulation of traits, and thoroughly failed to mention it. It's far more plausible to me that they just assumed that Genesis planes would work like mini Material planes, just like they assume that PCs are Medium/Small, or that people couldn't serially reincarnate to make their mental stats huge. Bad assumptions, maybe, but they have a thoroughly documented history of assuming the most straightforward case and conveniently forgetting about the other possibilities. It fits their modus operandi, and it fits the way the spell was written with nary a mention of it at all. It doesn't fit the added Psi line, but the Psi line is hardly a ringing endorsement either.

And none of that resolves the series of RAW issues (well, nitpicks, but RAW is nothing if not about legalism) that I've already posted about. But yes, you can use unupdated 3.0 content, even if it does leave a pervasive smell of overripe gouda.

olentu
2009-09-20, 01:11 AM
DR has been updated, so when using 3.0 monsters you'd change their DR to the 3.5 standards using the conversion booklets, in the same way a 3.0 monster would use 3.5 versions of feats like Power Attack.

Those general guidelines are what I am talking about when I say strange results since when unupdated DR and such get through the DM has to make judgment calls.

Ichneumon
2009-09-20, 01:22 AM
Reflecting on what has been said in this post, I think the DM needs to have a word and talk with the player using this spell. Although there are relatively harmless ways of using time dilation, it does need some agreement on both sides of the DM screen to make sure no large scale abusing happens.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-20, 01:33 AM
I still have a hard time believing they could have simultaneously intended manipulation of traits, and thoroughly failed to mention it. It's far more plausible to me that they just assumed that Genesis planes would work like mini Material planes, just like they assume that PCs are Medium/Small, or that people couldn't serially reincarnate to make their mental stats huge. Bad assumptions, maybe, but they have a thoroughly documented history of assuming the most straightforward case and conveniently forgetting about the other possibilities. It fits their modus operandi, and it fits the way the spell was written with nary a mention of it at all. It doesn't fit the added Psi line, but the Psi line is hardly a ringing endorsement either.

Maybe you are just wrong? Did that ever occur to you? Maybe all those people who think environment includes Planar traits aren't crazy aberrations, maybe the WotC designers who wrote the spells expected people to understand that the Planar traits are part of the environment, since Planes are called 'different environments' in the DMG and stuff.


But yes, you can use unupdated 3.0 content, even if it does leave a pervasive smell of overripe gouda.

You mean updated 3.0 content right? Genesis was explicitly updated to 3.5.

Heck, The Epic Level Handbook is 3.0, hasn't stopped anyone from talking about 3.5 Epic characters.

Gralamin
2009-09-20, 01:35 AM
I believe that deities and demigods was given an update.

An update that was did not include Genesis. An Update, that, notably, came out a year before Expanded Psionics Handbook.


You can use anything 3.0 that has not been updated to 3.5.

There is no 3.5 spell Genesis. (Well, there is, the updated Deities and Demigods one that is released in the SRD).

Therefore, you use the 3.0 updated to 3.5.

Claiming that the existence of Psionic Power negates the existence of the 3.0 spell is silly.
I'm not claiming it negates it, I'm claiming that its RAW is what should actually be used, since its the most up to date printing of the RAW.


If a Psionic power were printed tomorrow called "Knockdown" that would not invalidate the 3.0 feat. They can't invalidate things that are different from themselves.
If your going to make an argument, at least make one that makes sense. A Power and Feats are very different things. However, Spells and powers are very a like. Heck, the MIC turned all the psionic universal items into Wondrous items (Thereby negating the universal item versions, as they are no longer the most recent printing). So, If Magic can negate an entire section of items from psionics, I fail to see how one psionic power cannot override the RAW of an older spell of basically the same name, with the exact same purpose.


Edit: Besides, you still haven't addressed how you believe you can use a future power to make assumptions on the RAW of a former.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-20, 01:53 AM
An update that was did not include Genesis. An Update, that, notably, came out a year before Expanded Psionics Handbook.

Except that all updates explicitly don't touch things already 100% compatible, like Genesis. Genesis was updated because when they made the update, they made it clear that Genesis needed no change to be compatible.


I'm not claiming it negates it, I'm claiming that its RAW is what should actually be used, since its the most up to date printing of the RAW.

It's RAW is not the RAW of the Genesis spell.

Spell =/= power.

A Power called Genesis does not override a spell called Genesis. They are clearly different things. You are either claiming:

1) The existence of the Power Genesis means that no Wizard can ever cast Genesis, despite the spell being Sorcerer/Wizard 9.
2) The Existence of the Power Genesis means we should ignore all the text of the spell Genesis, and use the Power text instead, but for some reason I can't really explain, we shouldn't say it's a power. It's just a spell that uses the text of a power, because it's related.

Neither of those makes sense.

A Power does not replace a spell, so the spell Genesis still exists for Wizards to cast. And the Power does not replace the text of the spell, just like Psionic Grease doesn't replace Grease text.

Spells and Powers are 100% incompatible with each other.


If your going to make an argument, at least make one that makes sense. A Power and Feats are very different things. However, Spells and powers are very a like. Heck, the MIC turned all the psionic universal items into Wondrous items (Thereby negating the universal item versions, as they are no longer the most recent printing). So, If Magic can negate an entire section of items from psionics, I fail to see how one psionic power cannot override the RAW of an older spell of basically the same name, with the exact same purpose.

Spells and Powers are not compatible. That was the entire point of my example. The Mic turned magic items into different magic items, as part of it's purview, after explicitly stating that it is the official source on magic items.

A Psionic Power is not the official source on spells. Nor does the printing of a power automatically replace a spell.

If they had called Psionic Grease 'Grease' it would have been annoying, but it would not have by RAW taken the Grease spell away, or have replaced Grease spell text with Grease Power text.


Edit: Besides, you still haven't addressed how you believe you can use a future power to make assumptions on the RAW of a former.

The Psionic version makes clear that the phrase about environment includes setting Planar traits. Therefore, the Arcane version also sets Planar traits.

If they had wanted to prevent Arcane Genesis from allowing to set traits, such as time, they needed only to issue errata. It's not terribly hard.