Cosmic Horror versus Gothic Horror

[LurkerInPlayground]

I've been thinking at some length about how one would go about putting horror into a D&D setting. Or more to the point, the flavor of horror.

I figure there's two types that I know of:
Cosmic Horror (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_horror)
Gothic Horror (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_horror)

The first, cosmic horror, is one that I'm most familiar with. It's Lovecraft's modernist take on horror, where humanity is an insignificant speck in the vast void of the universe. The Powers-That-Be, are at best, indifferent to humanity and, at worst, interested in exploiting us.

I'm less familiar with gothic horror. It's somewhat nebulously defined as a form of "romanticism." In abstract terms, this means perhaps that there's more emphasis on the unexplainably supernatural, on mood and the emotions of the characters. In concrete terms, I'm not quite sure what that means. I imagine stories in this vein include Dracula and Frankenstein.

AD&D at one point had the Ravenloft setting, where one of its foremost villains is the Count Strahd von Zarovich, who bears similarities to Dracula. (He's also decried as an overshadowing NPC presence for the same reasons that fans hate Elminster from the Forgotten Realms setting).

But in any case, what practical steps could a DM take if one wanted to inject one form of horror into a setting instead of the other?

[Volkov]

The Cosmic Horror is much, much scarier than anything Gothic horror has ever made.

[LurkerInPlayground]

The Cosmic Horror is much, much scarier than anything Gothic horror has ever made.
Uhhh. Right. That's not really helpful.

Besides that, gothic horror can be fun in a heroic sort of way, if the Castlevania games are any indication.

[PumpkinEater]

Uhhh. Right. That's not really helpful.

Besides that, gothic horror can be fun in a heroic sort of way, if the Castlevania games are any indication.

Castlevania's not really scary, with the exception of Legacy of Darkness's hedge-maze chainsaw dude. It's more along the lines of "Oh yeah, look at me, I can destroy skeletons, zombies, and lanterns with a whip".

[Volkov]

If you want to make your characters feel ultimately powerless and give them nothing more than a bitter sweet ending, Cosmic Horror is your thing.

[Sir_Elderberry]

Well, I'd say it's all about the antagonists.

Cosmic horror antagonists are going to be forces of nature. You don't fight one of these guys, you fight a much smaller guy who might be threatening to let one out or something less cliche. If this guy wakes up, we're all screwed. If this portal gets opened, the people who died yesterday are going to be the lucky ones. Etc.

Gothic horror antagonists, on the other hand, might be downright sociable. They'll be emotional, yes, a bit "romantic" in some sense. (Thought not the love sense that modern people might read into the word.)

[Orzel]

Gothic Horror: Something powerful wants you dead.
Comsic Horror: Something powerful can kill you anytime it wants if it feels like it.

The timebomb strapped to your chest vs the social monster chasing you.

[UglyPanda]

If you want to make your characters feel ultimately powerless and give them nothing more than a bitter sweet ending, Cosmic Horror is your thing.That's not necessarily true. People react to insurmountable odds in different ways. If it's too obvious that someone is going to lose, their brain might break and they'll bust out laughing.

GM: Behold, mighty Cthulhu!
Adam: Is he going to eat us this time or drive us insane?
Bob: You know, why do giant monsters always eat people?
Casey: Cthulhu Fhtagn!
GM: Guys, take this seriously.
Adam: I jump into his mouth, so we can go home sooner.
GM: What?
Adam: I mean, we lost anyway, why fight it?

[LurkerInPlayground]

Castlevania's not really scary, with the exception of Legacy of Darkness's hedge-maze chainsaw dude. It's more along the lines of "Oh yeah, look at me, I can destroy skeletons, zombies, and lanterns with a whip".
Ugh.

Way to miss my point. I'm well aware that it's not supposed to be scary. But putting that aside, vampire-slaying is a romantic profession. It's epic and fraught with badassery.

And that's not to say that gothic horror can't be scary. Which while we're at it:
Scary =/= horror.

I'm asking for practical advice, in writing and in DM'ing that can create one type of atmosphere over the other. I have a suspicion that many modern horror stories actually draw some elements out of both types.

And I think both could work quite well in the older editions of D&D, which generally works on low fantasy assumptions wherein the characters don't start out as much more powerful than the average Joe.

[Xallace]

Well, I'd say it's all about the antagonists.

Cosmic horror antagonists are going to be forces of nature. You don't fight one of these guys, you fight a much smaller guy who might be threatening to let one out or something less cliche. If this guy wakes up, we're all screwed. If this portal gets opened, the people who died yesterday are going to be the lucky ones. Etc.

Gothic horror antagonists, on the other hand, might be downright sociable. They'll be emotional, yes, a bit "romantic" in some sense. (Thought not the love sense that modern people might read into the word.)

Sir Elderberry's got it down. Though, gothic as "romantic" strikes me as saying that you'll want to instill a sense of awe in you players in addition to horror. The kind of thing where the characters would come away from it saying "That was amazing," y'know, after they've changed pants. See if you can give them some respect for what they're up against, in addition to fear.

I'm not sure what to say about cosmic horror. It's more reality shattering. It's got to break some rules. It's got to let the PCs know that anything goes, and that they cannot be certain of anything anymore.

[Tiktakkat]

Gothic horror derives elements from romance, meaning the stories of honor and morality, not love stories or bodice rippers.

As such, most Gothic horror has an underlying moral to distinguish it from Cosmic horror. A villain is such because of some severe moral failing, not merely because the universe hates you (as in Cosmic horror), or because it is a force or destruction (Slasher horror), or because it is overwhelming you with disgust (Splatter horror), or because it is violating your physical integrity (Body horror), or the other variations.

Gothic horror is thus one of the more difficult variations of horror to present, as it depends on the players accepting not merely the horror premise (agreeing to be scared), but also to accept the underlying moral principle behind the villain. Pick the wrong principle for your group and your are left with the players treating it as just another monster run no matter what you do. If the players do not accept the pursuit of power as wrong, they will not regard the physical corruption of the evil overlord as anything but merry flavor text, and his actions as anything but the generic background.

It should also be noted that as a consequence of this the heroes almost inevitably must in fact "win" in Gothic horror, and again almost inevitably as a consequence of their moral supremacy. Again, this can be a problem if the players refuse to embrace being actively morally superior, both in and of their own characters, and especially in relationship to the villain. If they insist on being just slightly better alternatives, a lot of the flavor is lost.

[LurkerInPlayground]

My given understanding Ravenloft first opened as a setting with a module of the same name (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2008/12/retrospective-ravenloft.html).

In that particular review, following the link, the module is a cool dungeon-crawl but is ultimately too much about its villain and ends up overshadowing the PC characters. It's the tragedy of the Byronic hero, so to speak.

So given your premise that gothic horror is just a dressed-up morality tale, what would we take away from a villain that is about angst instead?

It wouldn't necessarily need to result in a moral triumph or a heavy-handed parable, so long as the villain in question has perceivable failings that result in bad things happening.

Come to think of it, that's pretty much the point of werewolves and ghosts too. Ghosts are leftovers from some regret, hatred or some other strong emotion. Werewolves end up being about the werewolf losing his identity to his savage nature.

[Raum]

But in any case, what practical steps could a DM take if one wanted to inject one form of horror into a setting instead of the other?The primary differences seem to revolve around the intent and consciousness of the 'evil entity'. Gothic horror is personal. Some one or some thing you know is out to get you in particular. Cosmic horror is impersonal and, largely, indifferent. It doesn't know you and probably won't even recognize you as an individual when it squashes you. It may not even be conscious of itself, it's certainly not conscious of you.

So there's your difference to project. You want Gothic horror? Make it personal. Some one the PCs know, some one who hates them in particular, and some one who is aware of their existence - and wants to end it.

For Cosmic horror, make it impersonal. A nameless Power which doesn't care whether you live or die. If it even recognizes your existence. It just is. If you're in its way you pay the price. If you manage to dodge it, it doesn't care.

You may also mix the two by having cultists or followers of an impersonal power become personal enemies.

[Tiktakkat]

My given understanding Ravenloft first opened as a setting with a module of the same name (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2008/12/retrospective-ravenloft.html).

In that particular review, following the link, the module is a cool dungeon-crawl but is ultimately too much about its villain and ends up overshadowing the PC characters. It's the tragedy of the Byronic hero, so to speak.

Thus in many ways demonstrating the difficulties of doing Gothic horror in a D&D adventure well.
The original Ravenloft adventure, much as the novel Dracula, winds up with the villain being too attractive. From the novel, we get vampire chic, and we can deal with that on its own. For the adventure, that destroys the pre-eminence of the players in the story, and it becomes something we cannot accept in the course of the game.


So given your premise that gothic horror is just a dressed-up morality tale, what would we take away from a villain that is about angst instead?

It wouldn't necessarily need to result in a moral triumph or a heavy-handed parable, so long as the villain in question has perceivable failings that result in bad things happening.

Yes and no?
It does not have to be that heavy-handed, but it must be an element. Otherwise you simply do not have Gothic horror, and just have dark fantasy or somesuch.
That is not inherently bad, it just is a slightly different version of the horror genre.


Come to think of it, that's pretty much the point of werewolves and ghosts too. Ghosts are leftovers from some regret, hatred or some other strong emotion. Werewolves end up being about the werewolf losing his identity to his savage nature.

Exactly.
You can play those for other sub-genres, but within the Gothic context, those are the elements that should be emphasized.

[LurkerInPlayground]

I looked up Dopplegangers on Wikipedia.

And interestingly enough, they're portrayed as doubles (i.e. evil twin) that are quite good at destroying your reputation.

Which makes for both a good cosmic and gothic spin.

A Doppleganger might be interpreted as an impersonal alien that just happens to makes its business all about you. It shows what you might become through subtle perversion of your character and it spends quite a lot of time turning public opinion against you. It doesn't do it for any motivations that a human might understand. And as far as anybody knows, it isn't a part of the natural world.

[seedjar]

In that context I'd say dopplegangers are still leaning heavily on the gothic motif. If, say, there were legions of them and they were replacing everyone, I think that might feel a little more cosmic. Especially if, after the players begin to catch on to one, it swaps back in the whoever it was impersonating. "The king is really some alien monster!" *stabbity* "OK, he's dead, trouble's over. Er, uh, why does he still look like the king?" (That would be around the time that the doppleganger impersonating you steps up and pins you as the impostor.)
What about zombie horror? I guess it's similar to cosmic in the sense of impersonal, unavoidable doom, but at the same time it's much less intellectual. A little bit of gore, a little bit of your dead relatives trying to eat you, and it gets pretty visceral. You don't really have to give any thought to zombie horror; dead things tend to evoke a very instinctive, basal type of fear.
~Joe

[Sir_Elderberry]

Zombies are kind of cosmic horror, except that they are in some sense confrontable. In a zombie apocalypse, the local cleric of Pelor is going to be kicking ass, even if it doesn't make a difference on the wider scale of things, and adventurers are going to mow through a lot of them. If Cthulu starts coming through, and the local cleric walks up and starts flashing his holy symbol around, it's just going to get him eaten faster. Zombies aren't "cosmic" because, usually, they don't affects the cosmos.

Unless there was an extraplanar avatar of Death/Unlife finally reaching our pathetic sphere of existence after spending centuries devouring other parts of the multiverse, drifting through the Far Realm from reality to reality, and as it approaches, the entire cosmology starts to decay, with even the positive energy plane beginning to dim, the gods becoming steadily weaker, and magic becoming slowly less potent as the Great Rot approaches.

You know. That'd be pretty cosmic.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Actually, I'd say zombies can be cosmic.

Movies like 28 Weeks Later (which I liked better than Days anyway) just characterizes it as a kind of plague. It's an impersonal force of nature that's really good at what it does.

The human reactions to the zombies are there, but they're mostly about how near-impossible the plague is to contain by the conventional military or by human intellect.

The ending of the movie strongly implies that good intentions aren't necessarily rewarded by an uncaring and amoral universe. So you saved the kid with immunity to the plague out of compassion and for goals of higher-minded scientific enlightenment (i.e. a decisive way to cure the plague)?

Well that's all well and good until the kid becomes a carrier to mainland Europe.

They could have just as easily ended by curing the plague. But neither the virus or the individual zombies really care about that.

The reason I don't like Days is that it goes down the cliched "Man is the Real Monster" route. Weeks, by contrast, goes with the "mankind is insignificant in the larger scheme of things" route.

[Drakyn]

In that context I'd say dopplegangers are still leaning heavily on the gothic motif. If, say, there were legions of them and they were replacing everyone, I think that might feel a little more cosmic. Especially if, after the players begin to catch on to one, it swaps back in the whoever it was impersonating. "The king is really some alien monster!" *stabbity* "OK, he's dead, trouble's over. Er, uh, why does he still look like the king?" (That would be around the time that the doppleganger impersonating you steps up and pins you as the impostor.)

I'm not exactly sure which branch of horror you'd consider this, but have you heard of Durlag's Tower in Baldur's Gate? (the first one) A dwarf (Durlag, naturally) builds a home (specifically, a tower) for his clan, they all come there, get rich, mind flayers hear of it...and they sic doppelgangers on them. Over a week or more they kill and replace every single member of his clan down to the babies. And when they finally come for Durlag, they still look like them.

[CharPixie]

There is also demonic horror; the kind you see in The Ninth Gate or the Exorcist. It's sort of a middleground between Cosmic and Gothic; whereas in Gothic the evil is within the mortal realm, just monsterous, demonic horror uses outside and powerful forces like Cosmic, but makes them fixated and hateful, rather than indifferent and unknowable.

Steps to play up horror in a game:

1) Overwhelming power. Demonstrate that if the players take on the bad directly, they will die. Especially in Cosmic and Demonic. Have the players encounter some evidence of this, or a very strong creature that is a minion of the bad. Ideally when the antagonism is not even directed at the players.

2) Rely more on macguffins to help defeat the enemy. Items are small, fragile, and limited. Missing with a silver arrow blessed by the high priest himself means you have to panic and find the arrow before everyone is torn apart. Also, using a macguffin will allow an overwhelming power to be defeated. Or Sealed.

3) Reveal as little as possible about the opposition. Imagine the party being attacked by a strong, invisible creature that you reveal nothing about. Perhaps only saying that blood appears when they seriously wound it. Horror is most effective when the worst is off-screen; imagination drives horror, especially in a roleplay environment where suspense can be difficult to maintain for long periods of time.

4) Keep the PCs in check. Supplies should run low; PCs should be off-balanced and believe that they are in risk because they are off-balance. Don't fight the system; Diablo is very atmosphere but with potion belts and town portals you feel far too over prepared to really panic.

5) PCs getting lost, doors jamming, and other bad karma can add to the panic. The key is to find a way to keep a thread of emotion running through the session; make them jumpy and you'll be rewarded with a good horror vibe.

And lastly, subvert combat mechanics as much as possible. Use the DMG 42 table and ad-hoc attacks, one-time special abilities on the fly, and use some attacks from much higher in the table to scare your players. The most scary combat I've ever been in was against a knife. It kept flying towards people and stabbing them. We ended up running, since we had no clue how to stop it.

PS:

It is important to follow through. If you establish that zombies are juggernauts that can't be stopped, you can't pull your punches too much when your players are cornered. You can let them get away with maiming (an excellent way to do Body Horror, btw; players generally are freaked out if their character loses a hand, etc.), but the world needs to be real.

[LurkerInPlayground]

"Demonic" horror is more gothic in my opinion.

It's usually never cosmic because it assumes that mankind is important to the workings of the universe. Demons spend their time screwing with mankind because man's privileged place in the universe is worth corrupting.

As for the rest of your advice, it's much appreciated.

[Starbuck_II]

Well, I'd say it's all about the antagonists.

Cosmic horror antagonists are going to be forces of nature. You don't fight one of these guys, you fight a much smaller guy who might be threatening to let one out or something less cliche. If this guy wakes up, we're all screwed. If this portal gets opened, the people who died yesterday are going to be the lucky ones. Etc.

Gothic horror antagonists, on the other hand, might be downright sociable. They'll be emotional, yes, a bit "romantic" in some sense. (Thought not the love sense that modern people might read into the word.)

Wait so when the Ghostbusters fought Cthulthu and beat him, was that Cosmic Horror?

[LurkerInPlayground]

Wait so when the Ghostbusters fought Cthulthu and beat him, was that Cosmic Horror?
Yes. Not all of Lovecraft's stories were serious either. But it follows the same general philosophy.

Just keep in mind that Ghostbusters is a comedy that happens to be lovingly influenced by Lovecraft's cosmicism. At the end of the day, it's about the laughs, the guy getting the girl and everybody going home happy after kicking evil's butt.

[Yora]

In a zombie apocalypse, the local cleric of Pelor is going to be kicking ass
Sorry, but in this case, it HAS to be spelled arse (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7xN3Z7890o). :smallbiggrin:

My favorite type of horror is more like "bestial horror".
In cosmic horror, you have the realization, that humanity is insignificant and that there are beings that only see us as ants, if they notice us at all. If we happen to get into their way, we'll all die without them eving noticing. I don't know for sure, but I think this type of horror as lost much of it's power in our current time. Many people no longer believe that they are the pinacle of creation and that white men are superior to all other beings. With social changes and advanced knowledge about the universe, we can allready come to the conclusion that our existance is just coincidence and has no meaning at all for the greater cosmos. A Cosmic Horror would be bad, but it would be more like a disaster and not a fundamental challenge to everything we believe in.
What I think to be far more horrific, is the monster that is not that much difference from us, but is defined by it's joy for causing pain and it's total disregard for any human values. It knows that humans are people just like itself, but it does not care at all. It can kill humans if it wants, and cause pain and suffering, just for it's own joy and gratification. It's depravity incarnate.
I think the reason why this is so horrific, is because such people are the real world monsters of the 20th century. Russia, Germany, Japan, Kambodsha, Ruanda and many more are all examples of situations where ordinary humans left all humanity behind and killed and raped just because they could. There were "official orders" that jusified their deeds, but in the end they did it because they could. Slasher movies are too silly and stupid to be considered horror in my eyes, but the Thing and Alien really did freak people out when such films where new.

Gothic Horror also has personified monsters that interact with their victims on a personal basis, but they were often struggling with their humanity and not completely without it.

[LurkerInPlayground]

In cosmic horror, you have the realization, that humanity is insignificant and that there are beings that only see us as ants, if they notice us at all. If we happen to get into their way, we'll all die without them eving noticing. I don't know for sure, but I think this type of horror as lost much of it's power in our current time. Many people no longer believe that they are the pinacle of creation and that white men are superior to all other beings. With social changes and advanced knowledge about the universe, we can allready come to the conclusion that our existance is just coincidence and has no meaning at all for the greater cosmos. A Cosmic Horror would be bad, but it would be more like a disaster and not a fundamental challenge to everything we believe in.
No. I think the value of any horror is a matter of execution, not philosophy.

The thing is that Lovecraft is a writer who identifies himself as a holdover of the Victorian era, whilst he wrote fiction that admitted the growing obsolescence of his sensibilities. So one must make allowances for his sense of horror. To him, race superiority and the growing strength of scientific discovery were of far more personal significance to him than it ever will be to us.

He still influenced modern thinking, which is why people like him. It seems that his ideas and philosophy are more important to people than his actual stories. Most audiences are inevitably going to be far more secular and modern-thinking; which is why cosmic horror remains valid.

The thing is that cosmic horror is supposed to be more about existential dread more than gothic horror is. I contradict you on this point, because gothic horror assigns a significance and importance to exploring the human element for its own sake. It doesn't ask fundamental questions about its own beliefs but derives its horror from the assumption that they're true.

The abovementioned "demonic" horror assumes an importance of mankind's emotional state to the universe at large. The cosmology is already understood and widely accepted by the audience. Hence, why I call it "gothic."

A cosmic take on WW2 would be to establish its place in history as a gateway out of the past into a more secular future. It means a whole lot to us personally. But that doesn't mean that justice expresses itself in the workings of nature.

Moreover, our dewy-eyed myths about racial/cultural superiority or the honor of the Nation-State turn out to be self-centered illusions that is used to justify further atrocities. Those human constructions have no meaning to the universe at large. It's not natural law or ordained by a higher power like we might believe. The man in the death camp would be hard-pressed at asking where Providence figures into it all.

Remember, WWII ended on the Americans bombing the Japanese with nukes. Which, as near as I can tell, is a pretty cosmic way to close out the war.

[Leliel]

While I enjoy Lovecraft as much as the next guy, Cosmic Horror really isn't that creepy in a mental sense.

Yes, there's incomprehensible alien space gods out there who don't care one whit for us either way, yadda yadda yadda. However, I realize that humanity is not the forefront of the universe already, so the idea of alien space gods that don't actively hate us isn't that creepy in an abstract sense.

Demonic horror, particularly of the "not actually a demon" kind (ie, Japanese horror) is a lot more scary: The villain isn't as powerful an can be defeated-if only just-but it actively hates you and everyone else. It doesn't want you to die-it wants you to suffer first, feel the pain that it does every day. It wants to tear apart your family and friends, destroy your home, corner you in a dark alley and then really make you hurt. Killing you is almost an afterthought.

The really good stories for Lovecraftian horror are not those that focus on the Scary Things from Beyond, but their cultists. For a good example of that, look at the Chzo Mythos game series.

[JonestheSpy]

While I enjoy Lovecraft as much as the next guy, Cosmic Horror really isn't that creepy in a mental sense.

Yes, there's incomprehensible alien space gods out there who don't care one whit for us either way, yadda yadda yadda. However, I realize that humanity is not the forefront of the universe already, so the idea of alien space gods that don't actively hate us isn't that creepy in an abstract sense.

I can't help thinking that the reason that you don't find Lovecraft all hat creepy, Leliel, is because you've grown up in the modern era where a more-orless materialistic view of a vast, uncaring universe is pretty commonplace. I Lovecraft's time, it was far far less so.

To echo what some others have already said, gothic horror is essentially moral. Evil can be defeated, but should only be so through wrenching moral and ethical conflicts, possibly including compassion for the tortured villain. Cosmic horror is amoral in the larger sense, though it can be full of what would be regarded evil in the here-and-now: murder, cannibalism, human sacrifice, etc. Generally the best that can be hoped for is to stop whatever plan the lowly cultists and/or weaker creatures are attempting, and avoiding madness and death by escaping notice of the greater entities.

"Demoni"c horror seems really a subset of gothic, while slasher or "bestial" horror seems to fall under "cosmic", in that there is nothing particularly personal involved and your own moral or immoral actions have little bearing on whether you're targeted by the killer or evil entity in question. It's really an expression of the fear of the random violence that can occur in someone's life anytime, without warning.

[stenver]

I held a horror game recently. Make sure you have a good music, like "End of the Journey" album playing in the background. Make sure the lights are turned off, only enough light to see the paper.

Make the PC weak but not powerless. Make them go through encounters in which they are in a great disadvantage and cant reach their enemies, while they can reach them just fine. And dont be afraid of anti magic fields
(I put 5 level 11 characters against 5 hunter spiders in a sewer system. The spiders were too high up in the ceiling, shooting webs down on them. The area was anti magic. There was no light. My players struggled to get some light and keep it lit, as they and all of their equipment was all wet and 5 CR2 spiders shot webs down on them. They had extremely limited ranged capabilities. They ended up killing 2 spiders and then running for their lives past the spiders.)

But the most important thing: Make a great story. Make it personal. If the player feels really threatened, then they might actually get afraid.

And one last thing, there is a secret ingredient, but unfortunately im not allowed to say it.

But this was the best game i have ever had, and DMmmed

Also, Ravenloft book is full of good tips. Remember, encounter must be made interesting and not XP mass killings. Keep them few and apart. Their goal is to keep players on their toes and keep them running forward, for resting anywhere is dangerous indeed in a horror world.

Also make sure every time players actually kill some NPC character, make them wonder if it was the right thing to do