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EnnPeeCee
2009-09-19, 10:41 PM
I've been looking into creating a character with an uber-mount, and this feat caught my attention. I've been having some trouble with it however.

Going with the intended route of Paladin 10 / Ranger 10, you get a mount which is much worse than going with straight Paladin 20. Is there a way to gain any sort of dual progression for the companion/mount?

I noticed, that Devoted Tracker doesn't require that you use the ranger's animal companion. In fact, a druid would easily fulfill the feat prereqs by taking Track. This would help a little, as you wouldn't need to worry about the ranger's 1/2 level companion progression. However, this brings up the problem of multiclassing, as Devoted Tracker only lifts the restriction between Paladins and Rangers.

Finally, is there a good way to also tack the Arcane Heirophant's Companion Familiar ability onto this? And, would that be at all useful?

So, just looking for some input on this idea. At this point, not really optimizing, that will come later. I just want to see how this all will work out.

rezplz
2009-09-19, 11:42 PM
Hm. So you're basically trying to combine the paladin's mount, the familiar, and an animal companion all into one crazy creature, like a frankenstein kind of deal.


That strikes me as vaguely creepy, but hey. More power to ya.

If you don't mind taking the paladin levels all at once, then this build could work out pretty well.

OPTION A:
Druid 2/Wizard(or sorcerer) 2/Arcane Heirophant X/Paladin X.

For simplicity's sake the paladin levels would have to be taken first. The two dump levels into wizard would hurt, but that's the only way I can see getting the familiar in there, too. Now, if you're willing to sacrifice the familiar part...

OPTION B:
Paladin X/ Druid X. Nice and simple, just again, take the paladin levels first. If all you want is a super "animal buddy", then you shouldn't care about losing whatever else you get from the devoted tracker.

OPTION C:
Straight druid. Since it takes paladins forever to just get the mount, those paladin levels might hurt. Dunno 100%, but I think straight druid would have a better animal companion.

OPTION D:
Step one: Find a sorcerer, a druid, and a paladin.
Step two: Knock out said sorcerer, druid, and paladin.
Step three: Liberal application of sovereign glue
Step four: ???
Step five: Profit!


Now, if you don't care about optimization, then you want Option a, then b, then c, then d.

If you DO care a bit about optimization, then c, b, a, then d.


If you're doing this for the lulz, your only option is d.


Hope I helped. :)

quick_comment
2009-09-19, 11:48 PM
For ubermount shenanigans, dont you want a major bloodline in there?

Bang
2009-09-19, 11:51 PM
Is there a way to gain any sort of dual progression for the companion/mount?
See Complete Warrior's Halfling Outrider.


I noticed, that Devoted Tracker doesn't require that you use the ranger's animal companion. In fact, a druid would easily fulfill the feat prereqs by taking Track.For even better results see Complete Adventurer's Beastmaster.


Finally, is there a good way to also tack the Arcane Heirophant's Companion Familiar ability onto this? And, would that be at all useful?Someone else will probably answer this competently, but the only thing coming to my mind is Major Bloodline abuse.

EnnPeeCee
2009-09-20, 12:35 AM
See Complete Warrior's Halfling Outrider.

For even better results see Complete Adventurer's Beastmaster.

Someone else will probably answer this competently, but the only thing coming to my mind is Major Bloodline abuse.

Ooh, didn't realize Outrider worked like that.

And for Beastmaster, would things like Outrider progress only the primary companion, or all of them? Wait, nevermind, Outrider only stacks with Paladin, Druid, and Ranger. Anyway to get that to work?

And as for Bloodlines, I don't particularly like using things like that, or abusing them for that matter; but how would it help?

Xenogears
2009-09-20, 12:40 AM
Hm. So you're basically trying to combine the paladin's mount, the familiar, and an animal companion all into one crazy creature, like a frankenstein kind of deal.


That strikes me as vaguely creepy, but hey. More power to ya.

If you don't mind taking the paladin levels all at once, then this build could work out pretty well.

OPTION A:
Druid 2/Wizard(or sorcerer) 2/Arcane Heirophant X/Paladin X.

For simplicity's sake the paladin levels would have to be taken first. The two dump levels into wizard would hurt, but that's the only way I can see getting the familiar in there, too. Now, if you're willing to sacrifice the familiar part...

OPTION B:
Paladin X/ Druid X. Nice and simple, just again, take the paladin levels first. If all you want is a super "animal buddy", then you shouldn't care about losing whatever else you get from the devoted tracker.

OPTION C:
Straight druid. Since it takes paladins forever to just get the mount, those paladin levels might hurt. Dunno 100%, but I think straight druid would have a better animal companion.

OPTION D:
Step one: Find a sorcerer, a druid, and a paladin.
Step two: Knock out said sorcerer, druid, and paladin.
Step three: Liberal application of sovereign glue
Step four: ???
Step five: Profit!


Now, if you don't care about optimization, then you want Option a, then b, then c, then d.

If you DO care a bit about optimization, then c, b, a, then d.


If you're doing this for the lulz, your only option is d.


Hope I helped. :)

Strictly speaking option D is the most powerful if you can get them to actually work for you. I mean even assuming you dont get some kind of awesome hybrid mutant with three heads that casts as both full druid and full sorcerer with the paladins hp and saves then you still get two powerful characters glued to a nice paladin who can carry them places.

Grumman
2009-09-20, 01:00 AM
You can use either Beastmaster or Ranger Knight of Fury-something from Dragon Magazine to give your mount a head-start on the animal companion or the special mount side.

The theory with Major Bloodline abuse is that since bloodline levels stack with all your classes for the benefit of level-based checks, they boost both sides with the same "level" instead of just one. Personally, I prefer the extra 3 levels of prestige classes.

The build I ended up with for Cally is the following:
Strongheart Halfling Holy Warrior Paladin of Arvoreen 5/Beastmaster 1/Halfling Outrider 3/Wild Plains Outrider 2/Ashworm Dragoon 9

EnnPeeCee
2009-09-20, 01:27 AM
Yeah, I'll avoid Bloodlines.

So, new question, are there any restrictions on mount size based on your size?
As in, can a halfling ride something a human could? And if so, where does it say so? I'm looking around the SRD and can't find anything.

Edit: found in the Arms and Equipment Guide, it just states that you must be at least one size smaller. Is this accurate?

Grumman
2009-09-20, 01:40 AM
So, new question, are there any restrictions on mount size based on your size?
As in, can a halfling ride something a human could? And if so, where does it say so? I'm looking around the SRD and can't find anything.
I'm pretty sure they can. Of course, riding something two sizes bigger than you also gives you other options, like a howdah. :smallbiggrin:

The Draconomicon, at least, specifies "<Size> or Smaller Riders". So that gives you a precedent to work with, if your DM objects.

EnnPeeCee
2009-09-20, 01:57 AM
Excelent. So, been looking at what mounts are available for paladins to choose from. I'm liking the sound of a rhino, even though it would be slow. Although, it'd be fun to ride something that flies too. So many choices...

Zephyros
2009-09-20, 04:10 AM
Idea (may be I am totally wrong but could someone check it?)
You could use Sword of the Arcane Order for Paladin to get the mount and arcane spells and then qualify for Arcane Hierophant with your paladin spellslots (although this may take like forever). The only problem remaining is that you don't have a familiar. So: Is there a feat that lets you combine familiar with paladin mount???

Grumman
2009-09-20, 04:22 AM
So: Is there a feat that lets you combine familiar with paladin mount???
There's a 5th level ACF for Wizard that does. But I'd think that the Arcane Hierophant class feature would be sufficient, if you've already made your mount into an animal companion.

riddles
2009-09-20, 04:53 AM
you want a mount with flight, multiple attacks and low hd. that's pretty much it. the bonuses from the extra hd from paladin and druid AC make such creatures phenomenal

EnnPeeCee
2009-09-21, 12:58 AM
you want a mount with flight, multiple attacks and low hd. that's pretty much it. the bonuses from the extra hd from paladin and druid AC make such creatures phenomenal

I thought about using a pegasus. And although it would probably be more optimal to have flight, I decided against it. This halfling is going to ride a rhino. More for character than optimization.

Mongoose87
2009-09-21, 01:01 AM
Ummmm...
Paladins must be LG.

Druids must be NG, LN, TN, CN or NE.

Is this not a problem?

RagnaroksChosen
2009-09-21, 01:02 AM
I thought about using a pegasus. And although it would probably be more optimal to have flight, I decided against it. This halfling is going to ride a rhino. More for character than optimization.

If you can use ebberon fluff... Halfling riding a fleshraker is awsome... I've made a sick build that was
paladin of freedom 5/beast master1/ halfling outrider/ wildplains out rider...

lot of fun. the fleshrakers was like 1.5 my hd it was sick.

EnnPeeCee
2009-09-21, 01:13 AM
Ummmm...
Paladins must be LG.

Druids must be NG, LN, TN, CN or NE.

Is this not a problem?

I ended up using Beastmaster, so no it wasn't. But it would be; I always forget about alignment restrictions. =P

Eldariel
2009-09-21, 04:40 AM
I must point out that Dragons make for excellent super companions especially since Dragon HD kicks so much ass.

BooNL
2009-09-21, 04:50 AM
I've never thought of using Beastmaster as a way to advance Devoted Tracker. How does that compare to Ranger?

I must remember to look this up when I get home, it should make for a nice character.

Eldariel
2009-09-21, 05:34 AM
I've never thought of using Beastmaster as a way to advance Devoted Tracker. How does that compare to Ranger?

I must remember to look this up when I get home, it should make for a nice character.

Beastmaster kicks Ranger's ass. Ranger has HALF companion, Beastmaster has Druid-level PLUS THREE! Anyways, the classic "Super Mount" involves Prestige Paladin, Beastmaster, Fey Druid/Ranger and Halfling Outrider to advance all 3 companions with Devoted Tracker combining them to 1.

Then burn one advancement to get the biggest Dragon you can with Dragon Mount-feat and dump all the HD advancement on it for Epic Win. With some work, you could even stack Familiar advancement on that, but it's not nearly as strong. This is further enabled by Theurgic Mount [DR325] & Holy Mount [DR325] which allow stacking Mount-advancement with one arcane or divine casting class.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-09-21, 07:48 AM
Beastmaster kicks Ranger's ass. Ranger has HALF companion, Beastmaster has Druid-level PLUS THREE! Anyways, the classic "Super Mount" involves Prestige Paladin, Beastmaster, Fey Druid/Ranger and Halfling Outrider to advance all 3 companions with Devoted Tracker combining them to 1.

Then burn one advancement to get the biggest Dragon you can with Dragon Mount-feat and dump all the HD advancement on it for Epic Win. With some work, you could even stack Familiar advancement on that, but it's not nearly as strong. This is further enabled by Theurgic Mount [DR325] & Holy Mount [DR325] which allow stacking Mount-advancement with one arcane or divine casting class.

How does it get three to one?

Eldariel
2009-09-21, 07:52 AM
How does it get three to one?

"Mount: A halfling outrider gains a mount appropriate to the resources of her halfling community. Most halfling communities attempt to provide an out rider with a riding dog or a warpony. A halfling outrider may, of course, choose to find and train or purchase a more exotic mount. Standard tack and harness is also provided, though, again, the character may wish to purchase masterwork or magic gear.
Halfling outrider class levels stack with paladin, druid, and ranger levels for determining the characteristics of a paladin’s mount or an animal companion."

Bolded for emphasis. You can get both, Ranger- and Druid-AC advancement. IIRC Prestige Ranger and Prestige Paladin and Beastmaster actually get you the best companion though I may remember wrong.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-09-21, 07:58 AM
"Mount: A halfling outrider gains a mount appropriate to the resources of her halfling community. Most halfling communities attempt to provide an out rider with a riding dog or a warpony. A halfling outrider may, of course, choose to find and train or purchase a more exotic mount. Standard tack and harness is also provided, though, again, the character may wish to purchase masterwork or magic gear.
Halfling outrider class levels stack with paladin, druid, and ranger levels for determining the characteristics of a paladin’s mount or an animal companion."

Bolded for emphasis. You can get both, Ranger- and Druid-AC advancement. IIRC Prestige Ranger and Prestige Paladin and Beastmaster actually get you the best companion though I may remember wrong.

hmm thats odd.. Though i agree that will improve both AC's and paladin mount... I belive the feat devoted tracker makes it so you only apply one AC and mount.

Eldariel
2009-09-21, 08:29 AM
hmm thats odd.. Though i agree that will improve both AC's and paladin mount... I belive the feat devoted tracker makes it so you only apply one AC and mount.

Beastmaster stacks the ACs IIRC. I think the specific wording is that BM stacks with any previous AC progressions for the companion stats. Btw, I just dug up one of the old TO versions of the Supermount to see what it can do (by JaronK):

Stronheart Halfling, Major Bloodline: Silver Dragon

Fey Bard 1 Skill Focus (Handle Animal), Endurance, Track, Flaw: Slow
Cleric 1 (Animal, Nobility) Alertness
Fey Bard 2 Rapid Shot
Fighter 1 Mounted Combat
Druid 1
PrC Ranger 1 Devoted Tracker
Bone Knight 1
Bone Knight 2
Beastmaster 1 Mounted Archery
Halfling Outrider 1
Wild Plains Outrider 1
Animal Lord (Wolflord) 1 Dragon Steed [Presumably: Was listed as Draconic Mount]
Halfling Outrider 2
Halfling Outrider 3 Power Attack
Halfling Outrider 4 Holy Mount
Halfling Outrider 5
Halfling Outrider 6
Halfling Outrider 7 Theurgic Mount
Halfling Outrider 8
Halfling Outrider 9

Animal Companion Total: 52
Paladin Mount Total: 34

Yes, Bloodline Abuse and all that. Quite an epic companion. I daresay a Young Gold Dragon with all those adjustments could kick some Great Wyrm butt purely stat-wise (though not in the spellcasting kinda way, obviously).