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JonestheSpy
2009-09-20, 05:02 PM
Hey all,

I'll be DMing a new campaign soonish, one set in a pretty unusual milleu ( a Un Lun Dun/Neverwhereish alternate London) and using mostly core 3.5 with a few extra additions for the occasional firearm and the like.

Now, there's been tons of threads about fixing this class or that race, so I'm wondering which one or two stand out in your mind as the best you've seen? I'm hoping to synthesize the best ideas into the game without TOO much disruption. And yeah, I'm looking at mostly Core, so hopefully not too much that's depending on entire splatbooks - though if you have fave non-core spells/item/feats/ that you think should be included in every game, but don't need a whole new volume to incorporate, that's cool too.

Thanks! I'll try to post something later that actually puts together folks' suggestions in a coherent manner.

AslanCross
2009-09-20, 05:35 PM
OneWingedAngel's Rebalanced Paladin and Fax Celestis's mantle Paladin are both excellent Paladin fixes. The Rebalanced Paladin is ok for both single and multiclass; Fax's lends itself more to straight classes.

Catch
2009-09-20, 05:37 PM
Basically everything by Fax. I'm pretty sure he'll be hired by Wizards to write 5th edition.

Deepblue706
2009-09-20, 05:51 PM
I think pretty much all of the homebrew fixes I've seen for 3.5 classes and races are terrible - I hope our homebrewers don't take it personally, though, as I think 90% of all things are terrible anyway.

It might be worthwhile to consider banning a few overpowered spells on the Wizard/Sorcerer list, mostly the shapechanging stuff, i.e. Alter Self, Polymorph, etc. From what I can tell, that's a popular way to keep Wizards from dominating too much, though they retain a lot of strength.

For Druids, you can limit their abuses by limiting their options for Wildshape to creatures they've specifically encountered in-game, or perhaps just use the Shapeshifter variant from the PHB2 (pg 36). Either way, still expect most Druids to be very "useful".

If you don't intend to be making changes with the Fighter or Paladin classes, I would suggest you insist only experienced players take them up - in the hands of a beginner, there's a fair chance they'll do poorly. Sadly, I can't think of any homebrew fixes that I honestly feel ought to be suggested to help with this.

quick_comment
2009-09-20, 05:52 PM
Basically everything by Fax. I'm pretty sure he'll be hired by Wizards to write 5th edition.

That would be nice, but I bet they just hire away the design team of WoW

IthilanorStPete
2009-09-20, 06:01 PM
You could just use the parts of the 3.51 Test of Spite rules that apply to core.

Bang
2009-09-20, 06:08 PM
What are you trying to fix?

--edit--

If you're trying to fix 'overpowered casters' by giving them the same direct power and versatility as a Fighter, a good starting point would probably be giving any caster one to three level 1 spells known, ever. Let them use Metamagic if they want to make use of higher-level slots.

(I'm dead serious.)

If you're seeing a problem with the party's Monk feeling weak next to the Barbarian, something minor like a shiny item or a BA boost might close the gap a bit. These sort of tweaks are all so circumstancial that I don't think any are worth listing, even though they're probably what you were asking for. It depends on what exactly is going on in your group.

If your problem is an 'underpowered fighter' not having the versatility of a caster, you're sunk. Any fix here is going to amount to little more than refluffing spells.

---

But most games won't need a fix. As long as players have the barest inkling of ingenuity and don't go out of their way to make each other miserable, there shouldn't be a problem.

Thrawn183
2009-09-20, 06:19 PM
Ban polymorph line spells and metamagic reducers like Arcane Thesis.

quick_comment
2009-09-20, 06:31 PM
Just let your players know that anything they do can be done by the enemy, and the enemy has more and higher level wizards.

PirateMonk
2009-09-20, 06:33 PM
What are you trying to fix?

--edit--

If you're trying to fix 'overpowered casters' by giving them the same direct power and versatility as a Fighter, a good starting point would probably be giving any caster one to three level 1 spells known, ever. Let them use Metamagic if they want to make use of higher-level slots.

(I'm dead serious.)

I think they could be given a second level spell or two by level 15 without breaking things too badly.

SurlySeraph
2009-09-20, 06:43 PM
The ToB core class update (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Tome_of_Battle_Core_Class_Update) that Krimm and Fax use is great for bringing the core melee classes closer in line with casters. I'm also a big fan of Fax's non-ToB Monk, Ranger, and Paladin fixes.

Mongoose87
2009-09-20, 06:45 PM
Just let your players know that anything they do can be done by the enemy, and the enemy has more and higher level wizards.

That's what my DM does to keep us from using level draining and ability damaging spells.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-09-20, 07:33 PM
Just let your players know that anything they do can be done by the enemy, and the enemy has more and higher level wizards.

That's my philosophy as well. The players can (and did, in one game) abuse metamagic for a Locate City Nuke all they want as long as they accept that it'll turn into Fallout: D&D Edition, they can chain-gate solars if they don't mind the opposition doing the same, and so on

quick_comment
2009-09-20, 07:40 PM
That's my philosophy as well. The players can (and did, in one game) abuse metamagic for a Locate City Nuke all they want as long as they accept that it'll turn into Fallout: D&D Edition, they can chain-gate solars if they don't mind the opposition doing the same, and so on

My players tried chain-gating solars once. Too bad the second solar they gated had epic spellcasting, which freed him from the gate-control. Oops.

Kroy
2009-09-20, 08:15 PM
Fax is the best homebrewer of all time, all his stuff is cool. You could even try d20r, or just use his monk/paladin. I also like his ToB revamps of core classes (using them right now).

Doc Roc
2009-09-20, 08:21 PM
My bias on this matter is incredibly well-known. That said, I also think that the Tome series is excellent.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-09-20, 09:38 PM
My players tried chain-gating solars once. Too bad the second solar they gated had epic spellcasting, which freed him from the gate-control. Oops.

You don't even need that; when the caster in the party started chain-gating, his enemies found out about this and quickly worked up an epic spell that would free every summoned/called creature within a mile or so of any control while allowing them to stay on the plane for up to 1 day. Why have the chain stop with two pissed-off solars when you can have two thousand pissed-off solars? :smallbiggrin:

valadil
2009-09-20, 09:45 PM
This isn't something that gets a lot of complaints, but I never liked that multiclass characters had better saves than single classed characters. I ran one game with fractional saves and BAB. I think I read about these in UA, but I'm not sure. One change I made was that the +2 bonus at the first level of a class didn't apply, except at level 1. This gave you something else to consider at low levels besides skill points and maxed hit die.

ex cathedra
2009-09-20, 09:55 PM
Recently? I've become quite fond of the 3.51 set (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124216).

Base class fixes range anywhere from terrible to fairly okay, but, for the most part, the best thing is just to sit down your players and make sure that they all make characters that will be fun to play.

Don't let the fighter take Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword, Toughness, and Weapon Focus at first level.

Don't let the wizard use those spells that Break The Game. Quietly nudge them in a different direction.

Don't let the druid demolish everything.

(and so forth)

As long as everyone is on a similar page, and you design encounters that play off the strengths of everyone in the party, you should be fine.

Deepblue706
2009-09-20, 10:40 PM
Don't let the fighter take Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword, Toughness, and Weapon Focus at first level.


I think Dodge would be worse than Weapon Focus. I'm pretty sure Weapon Focus is one of the best feats you can take at first level. The only issue with it is the lack of scaling as you progress.

wadledo
2009-09-20, 10:59 PM
My particular favorite fixes?
Ultimate Classes (http://www.liquidmateria.info/wiki/Ultimate_Classes).

-Nothing is overpowered,

-you never need PrC's (or multiclassing, since they have a class that does it better but without breaking anything),

-saves are great (like BAB. Good, average and bad.),

-skills are boosted where more are needed,

-it incorporates every non-ToB/ToM/Incarnum class(which, at least in ToB's case, are no longer needed),

-no casting spells higher than level 7,

-psionics can manifest up to level 8,

-every casting class has 'invocations' style spellcasting, making them useful no matter how many spells they cast,

-there are three brand new classes that each fill another role in the party while at the same time being absolutely amazing in terms of fluff and mechanics(Vortex, Nexus, and Incarnate).

Myou
2009-09-21, 01:53 AM
What are you trying to fix?

--edit--

If you're trying to fix 'overpowered casters' by giving them the same direct power and versatility as a Fighter, a good starting point would probably be giving any caster one to three level 1 spells known, ever. Let them use Metamagic if they want to make use of higher-level slots.

(I'm dead serious.)


I hope you're not serious. Because that is the worst fix I have ever seen proposed. :smallyuk:

Bang
2009-09-21, 02:51 AM
I hope you're not serious. Because that is the worst fix I have ever seen proposed. :smallyuk:

Do you really think a core Fighter has more or better tricks than a Wizard with access to Heightened Enlarged Widened Color Spray, Quickened Grease and Maximized Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement?

--edit--

But yeah, it's a pretty terrible fix.

If you want 'balance' without trying to justify the Fighter teleporting and taking over people's minds with his sword and without Wizards being limited this way, you'll pretty much have to write up a whole new system.

It's easier just to not play with any *******s.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-21, 02:56 AM
Sorcerers need to have Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at first level, a few bonus feats here and there, 4 + Int mod skill points per level, and a few knowledges (K. Planes at the least) as a class skill.



It's easier just to not play with any *******s.

I'm sorry, I don't recognize that word. :smalltongue:

Myou
2009-09-21, 08:37 AM
Do you really think a core Fighter has more or better tricks than a Wizard with access to Heightened Enlarged Widened Color Spray, Quickened Grease and Maximized Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement?

--edit--

But yeah, it's a pretty terrible fix.

If you want 'balance' without trying to justify the Fighter teleporting and taking over people's minds with his sword and without Wizards being limited this way, you'll pretty much have to write up a whole new system.

It's easier just to not play with any *******s.

I never even mentioned fighters. I was just trying to point out that your 'fix' was unplayable and poorly thought out. All it does it force wizards to all play the Mailman. It ruins all the fun of playing a caster without actally reducing their power.

Leon
2009-09-21, 08:53 AM
Merging several of the skills into broader ones and allowing all classes to have access to a Core set that anyone with a ounce of sense would have

Detect Magic, Identify and the like are Universal School spells and casters can ban Divination if they so choose

Natural Spell feat doesn't exit (and really after the variation of Druids i upgraded to later it doesn't really matter if it did unless you choose one of a number of paths)

Bosh
2009-09-21, 08:58 AM
Across the board saving throw increase and nerf of the handful of overpowered spells that can't be negated with saving throws (polymorph. shape change, cleric self-only buffs etc.).

And nerf druids.

bosssmiley
2009-09-21, 08:59 AM
The Tome Series. Not only do they offer fun and useful fixes for the broken parts of 3E; they also teach you how to spot and fix game mechanical flaws and thematic dissonance yourself.

There's more edjamikashun and good sense in those collections than in the entire 'deliberate obfuscation of how it really works' output of WOTC.

Lapak
2009-09-21, 09:05 AM
What are you trying to fix?

--edit--

If you're trying to fix 'overpowered casters' by giving them the same direct power and versatility as a Fighter, a good starting point would probably be giving any caster one to three level 1 spells known, ever. Let them use Metamagic if they want to make use of higher-level slots.

(I'm dead serious.)If you're going to go this route, just go all out and use the adjustment that I think probably is the best of the 'alternate 3.x' rulesets: play an E6 campaign and be done with it. Cap character level at 6, allow further advancement by feats, and stretch the sweet spot of character power and class balance as far as it can be stretched.

paddyfool
2009-09-21, 09:36 AM
Fantasy craft. It does require a new (400 page) book, however, but on the bright side, that book is really all you need.

9mm
2009-09-21, 10:16 AM
rangers gain knowledge devotion (uncapped); favored enemy become a bonus to knowledge checks to identify: all knowledge become class skills.

concentration to cast DC increases.

Draz74
2009-09-21, 11:00 AM
Honestly, the game runs pretty OK most of the time in spite of the potential imbalances. And when I start to houserule things, I usually get carried away until I go back to trying to work on my own system again. But if I'm trying to keep a Core-Only mindset in mind, and houserule away the worst abuses, I'd propose a list like this. It still leaves noncasters much less powerful than casters at high levels, but whatever.

Duh
Anything glaringly obvious should be fixed.

Monks are proficient with unarmed strikes
Drowning does not heal you if you are at negative Hit Points.
Anything similarly blatant.


Anything the players try to abuse gets nerfed or banned.

Wall of Iron is nerfed to be very temporary, if you try to use it to get infinite money.
Gate does not grant absolute control over whatever it summons. Work it out reasonably on a case-by-case basis.
Custom at-will True Strike items. Custom Create Food and Water traps. Need I say more?
Et cetera. Tailor these to your players' attempted abuses.


Also, there's no reason not to use Fractional BAB and Saves.


Skills
Cross-class skills (except for UMD and Speak Language) do not cost double. They only cost one skill point per skill rank. They still have a lower maximum rank than class skills.

Multiclass characters must calculate their maximum ranks using their separate class skill lists. No dipping Rogue 1 just so you can be an uber skillmonkey forever.

Trapfinding is available to all classes as a feat. It also grants Search and Disable Device as class skills.

Classes

Barbarian

6+Int Skill Points per level.
... Meh, leave it mostly as-is for these "simple" rules.
Preferably, allow some select non-Core material, such as the Intimidating Strike, Imperious Command, Martial Study feats. (NOT the Lion Spirit Totem variant.)


Bard

Increase Hit Die to d8.
8+Int Skill Points per level.
Make bonus spells based on Intelligence.
Preferably, allow some select non-Core material, such as Extra Music, Versatile Performer, Song of the Heart, Melodic Casting feats and the Inspirational Boost spell.


Cleric

Reduce Hit Die to d6.
Use Spontaneous Variant. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm)
Grant proficiency with deity's favored weapon.
Remove heavy armor proficiency. (Give it as a War Domain power.)
Ban Divine Power (except as a War Domain spell).
Make spell Save DCs based on Charisma.
4+Int Skill Points per level, and Sense Motive as a class skill


Druid

Use Spontaneous Variant. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm)
Use the PHB2 Shapeshift Variant, including no Animal Companion or Natural Spell. Or maybe the Aspect of Nature variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#wildShapeVariantAspectOfN ature), and keep the Animal Companion but give it the same progression as the Ranger's (i.e. Druid level -3).
Make spell Save DCs based on Charisma.


Fighter

4+Int Skill Points per level, and Balance as a class skill.
Preferably allow some select non-Core material, such as Martial Study, Martial Stance feats.


Monk

8+Int Skill Points per level.
Flurry of Blows does not require a full attack. It can be used with a standard action attack or a spring attack too. However, it must be used with an unarmed strike (or a shuriken).
All Monk weapons use either their base damage or the Monk's Unarmed Strike damage, whichever the player prefers.
Unarmed Strike can be enchanted like a normal melee weapon.
Increase AC bonus: +1 AC for every 3 Monk levels.
Perfect Self grants DR/Chaos instead of DR/Magic.
Preferably allow some select non-Core material, such as Martial Study, Martial Stance feats.


Paladin

4+Int Skill Points per level.
Preferably allow some select non-Core material, such as the Charging Smite and Healing Spirit class variants and the Battle Blessing feat.


Ranger

8+Int Skill Points per level.
Effective Druid level for the purposes of Animal Companion is Ranger level -3.
Consolidate Favored Enemy choices ... I'm too tired to detail this out.


Rogue

10+Int Skill Points per level.
Allow (and encourage) the Penetrating Strike Alternate Class Feature.
Give it a capstone. Since I'm tired, I'll just say give it the Factotum's Cunning Brilliance ability (1/encounter, 3/day).
Preferably allow some other select non-Core material, such as the Savvy Rogue feat and skill tricks.


Sorcerer

4+Int Skill Points per level.
Increase Hit Die to d6.
Knowledge (the planes), Knowledge (religion), Disguise, Intimidate, and Sense Motive as class skills.
Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at Level 1. Delay Familiar to Level 3 (but still give it full progression).
Make spell Save DCs dependent on ... dunno. Maybe Strength would be interesting.
Preferably allow some select non-Core material, such as the Rapid Metamagic feat.


Wizard

Make spell Save DCs dependent on Wisdom.
Maybe remove Familiar?
Force all Wizards to specialize, and gain no benefit from doing so.



Spells
Alter Self is a Level 4 spell. Polymorph is a Level 7 spell. Polymorph Any Object only works on/for nonliving objects, except when used simply to emulate Polymorph or Alter Self. Shapechange costs 1500 gp per casting (instead of having a focus), lasts 1 round/level, and does not grant supernatural abilities.

Items
Dust of Sneezing and Choking is banned.

The Animated quality of a shield is a +5-cost enhancement.

Shademan
2009-09-21, 11:07 AM
http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=64436

monk fix. makes him more...realistic, maybe?

Telonius
2009-09-21, 11:17 AM
Best two fixes?

1. Shapeshift Druid.
2. Divine Power is only a War Domain spell.

That comes very close to fixing two of the Big Three in a core-only game. Wizards are next on the list, but that involves removing several spells (in core) and one feat (out of core).

Curmudgeon
2009-09-21, 12:20 PM
I really like increasing the maximum falling damage to match realistic terminal velocity. That means a maximum of 50d6 damage instead of 20d6.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-09-21, 01:08 PM
I really like increasing the maximum falling damage to match realistic terminal velocity. That means a maximum of 50d6 damage instead of 20d6.

I've seen "realistic terminal velocity" quoted as being anywhere from 40d6 to 70d6 based on how you're approaching the problem, but regardless of the amount I do agree with the increased falling damage cap. High-level characters should be superhuman, but that doesn't necessarily extend to every high-level character surviving a fall from orbit.

Lapak
2009-09-21, 01:27 PM
I really like increasing the maximum falling damage to match realistic terminal velocity. That means a maximum of 50d6 damage instead of 20d6.
I don't think realism in falling damage is something you can accomplish. The record for surviving a fall without a parachute is in the neighborhood of 33,000 feet; the record for surviving one and coming away more or less unharmed is around 11,000 feet. 50 damage would certainly have killed either of those folks, as they are regular people, but we can all agree that those kinds of falls should kill pretty much everyone. There's really no way to realistically cover how falling damage affects people. Heck, maybe switch it to d10 per 10', cap it at 5d10 and automatically force a save vs. massive damage with a DC equal to damage taken. I don't think just upping the damage dice makes it any more real.

Talya
2009-09-21, 02:16 PM
I generally like 3.5 as it is. Which is not to say I don't use some house rules for some minor tweaking, but our group tends to like 3.5 as designed.

Haven't tried Pathfinder. It looks nice, but too many things are removed, on the magic front.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-21, 03:06 PM
I don't think just upping the damage dice makes it any more real.
It does, though. The FAQ contains a calculation of falling speed, and a person reaches terminal velocity right around the end of 1 round (6 seconds) of falling, having dropped just over 500'. Since the rules already correctly model impact energy as being linearly proportional to distance fallen, setting the damage cap to match when you stop gaining speed is a good match to reality -- or at least as close as we'll get with D&D's hit point system.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-09-21, 03:38 PM
I don't think realism in falling damage is something you can accomplish. The record for surviving a fall without a parachute is in the neighborhood of 33,000 feet; the record for surviving one and coming away more or less unharmed is around 11,000 feet. 50 damage would certainly have killed either of those folks, as they are regular people,[...]

Well, keep in mind that "real people" stretches from about 1st-6th level. A 6th-level expert (since modern humans would be closer to experts than commoners) can have up to 36 HP with Con 10; Con 12 puts them at 42 HP and Con 16 at 54, so it's entirely possible for a fairly healthy "normal person" to survive the fall but be unconscious, and a more fit "normal person" to survive and walk away. Granted, the proportion of the populace with a 16 Con is small (highest score in the elite array [15] into Con, +1 at 4th level [16]), but it's at least possible...and how many people have survived a fall from that height?

Lapak
2009-09-21, 03:49 PM
It does, though. The FAQ contains a calculation of falling speed, and a person reaches terminal velocity right around the end of 1 round (6 seconds) of falling, having dropped just over 500'. Since the rules already correctly model impact energy as being linearly proportional to distance fallen, setting the damage cap to match when you stop gaining speed is a good match to reality -- or at least as close as we'll get with D&D's hit point system.Speed or energy may be proportional, but damage is not. People have walked away from unlikely falls completely unharmed; other people have been killed by apparently trivial ones. 50d6 is no more likely a place than 20d6 to set an arbitrary limit on falling damage, because 1d6-per-ten-feet is not a measurement of speed or of energy or of anything but 'how much injury-represented-murkily-as-hit-points will you sustain if you hit the ground?'

To PairO'Dice: The woman who survived a 33,000 foot drop was a 22-year-old flight attendant, and not one noted for amazing health or anything. Given that 6th level is supposed to represent the most amazing peak of human achievement (according to the popular theory) - it's not reasonable to assume that she was a 6th-level character with a high CON stat. Not many people have survived such a fall. At the same time, remember, on the other end of things you have a surprisingly large number of people who die from relatively trivial falls.

We're wandering way off topic, here, though. I'd be happy to continue this in another format by messages or in another thread if you want, but I think we just disagree on this one.

taltamir
2009-09-21, 07:41 PM
Also, there's no reason not to use Fractional BAB and Saves.

I said that before, everyone told me it was a bad idea. you are the first person to agree with me on that one :)

Anyone else agrees/disagrees?

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-09-21, 11:48 PM
To PairO'Dice: The woman who survived a 33,000 foot drop was a 22-year-old flight attendant, and not one noted for amazing health or anything. Given that 6th level is supposed to represent the most amazing peak of human achievement (according to the popular theory) - it's not reasonable to assume that she was a 6th-level character with a high CON stat. Not many people have survived such a fall. At the same time, remember, on the other end of things you have a surprisingly large number of people who die from relatively trivial falls.

Most amazing in what area, though? It's the same issue as comes up when you make the local blacksmith 5th level to get the skill modifier you want--it's entirely possible that she would be statted out as a 6th level character to capture her capabilities (particularly if she's one of those cheerful stewardesses who needs max ranks in all the Cha skills :smallwink:). Instead of high Con, she could have taken Toughness twice as her 1st-level and human feats (maybe she played sports in school?) or could have increased her HP in other ways.

The point is that, within reasonable error bounds, you can model falling damage with a higher cap and have it still resemble real life. Yes, this particular example might not work perfectly, but you can fiddle with it a bit to make it fit.


We're wandering way off topic, here, though. I'd be happy to continue this in another format by messages or in another thread if you want, but I think we just disagree on this one.

Agreed on the derail. I'm not particularly in favor of any interpretation (just wanted to point out relative feasibility) so we can just drop it.

Antariuk
2009-09-22, 01:19 AM
My favourite 3.5 fixes:

- Spellcasters don't get their spells automatically and cannot really select what they want to cast at a given level. Instead I let the players work for it, because I hate D&D's way of letting new spells fall out of the blue if you advance in level. So my arcane casters research or experiment in the schools they are interested in and divine casters have to pray or perform rituals. They can also adapt spells they find in scrolls or spellbooks, but some new spells I will roll randomly to keep things interesting ;)
I know this "fix" will probably alienate some people, but it worked great for me and may players so far. It prevents spellcasters from selecting the bunch of favourite battlefield-dominating spells your can read about everywhere and reintroduces creative thinking (at least in my group).

- Stunts. I began with the mechanics from The Book of Iron Might, but over time I fiddled a bit with the rules, adopted things from homebrews and did my own changes. I like this idea for granting melee characters more flexibility in combat without having to spend lots of feats. Sure, it will not always work, but I think its an improvement to vanilla 3.5 (I'm looking at you, Grapple!).

- Changed classes like Cloistered Cleric or Shapeshifting Druid. I didn't replace the Fighter till now but allow alternatives like ToB classes. I also introduced Witches as new core class because I missed it badly since the first time I opened the PHB, but thats a personal thing :)

- Reduced skill list, inspired by the Pathfinder Beta. Open Lock folded into Disable Device; Balance, Escape Artist and Tumble folded into Acrobatics, etc. I also changed the list of skills for every class, but thats still in progress.