Xykon seems to have to many feats

[speeddemon]

Something i've been wondering about is how does Xykon have all those meta-magic spells, but at the same time made many refrences to him making magical items. They say he's a sorcerer so he shouldn't be able to do all those things. I was just wondering if anyone could clarify if maybe i've missed something

[RMS Oceanic]

All those metamagic spells? The only two metamagic feats I recall him using is Maximize and Still. As for crafting magic items, Craft Wonderous Item should cover almost anything you're allowed to homebrew.

Three feats out of at least ten or so. Doesn't seem excessive to me.

[The MunchKING]

All those metamagic spells? The only two metamagic feats I recall him using is Maximize and Still. As for crafting magic items, Craft Wonderous Item should cover almost anything you're allowed to homebrew.

Three feats out of at least ten or so. Doesn't seem excessive to me.

He also made a ring of elemental Immunity: Fire.

[speeddemon]

All those metamagic spells? The only two metamagic feats I recall him using is Maximize and Still. As for crafting magic items, Craft Wonderous Item should cover almost anything you're allowed to homebrew.

Three feats out of at least ten or so. Doesn't seem excessive to me.

How is it at least ten or so? By level 20 you would have 7 feats

[MReav]

He also made a ring of elemental Immunity: Fire.

No, he said he made an item that made him immune to the kind of damage that he uses splash damage for. Considering he's got Redcloak advising him and Redcloak is allowed things like Titanium, Chlorine and Magnesium Elementals, I'm willing to bet that he told Xykon "Rather than waste taking Forge Ring and Forge Epic Ring, just use Craft Wondrous Item and use the Custom Item Creation rules and the Energy Immunity Spell from Complete Arcane." "Wow Redcloak, you're such a nerd."

An Wondrous Item fulfilling that criteria would be:

7 (spell level) x 14 (minimum Sorcerer Level to cast)) x 2000 (continuous effect) x0.5 (24 hour or longer duration) = 98000 (possible 1.5x cost due to Uncustomary location). He could even make it a Command Word ability to lower the cost and grant him immunity to Fire, Acid, and Sonic as well (though it won't be as protected against dispelling)

[The MunchKING]

How is it at least ten or so? By level 20 you would have 7 feats

21 min. You need an Epic feat to cast epic spells.

[Elm11]

I wouldn't worry to much about his feats. Rich made the comic so that plot comes first, then rules, and if we let the latter get in the way, then the former is spoilt.

[The Extinguisher]

21 min. You need an Epic feat to cast epic spells.

Doesn't the Maximized Energy drain put him at level 26 min?

[speeddemon]

I wouldn't worry to much about his feats. Rich made the comic so that plot comes first, then rules, and if we let the latter get in the way, then the former is spoilt.

Good point

[speeddemon]

Doesn't the Maximized Energy drain put him at level 26 min?

So if I understand this correctly the generally agreed upon level of the Order of the Stick is level 13, correct. If Xykon needs to be level 26 to cast maximized energy drain, then with the LA of +5 for a lich there main villian is the equivilent of a level 31 character! There seems to be no possible way for them to stand a hope of deafeting him.

[The MunchKING]

So if I understand this correctly the generally agreed upon level of the Order of the Stick is level 13, correct. If Xykon needs to be level 26 to cast maximized energy drain, then with the LA of +5 for a lich there main villian is the equivilent of a level 31 character! There seems to be no possible way for them to stand a hope of deafeting him.

They can't. That's why they are trying to beat him to the Gates rather than just killing him.

[BatRobin]

So if I understand this correctly the generally agreed upon level of the Order of the Stick is level 13, correct. If Xykon needs to be level 26 to cast maximized energy drain, then with the LA of +5 for a lich there main villian is the equivilent of a level 31 character! There seems to be no possible way for them to stand a hope of deafeting him.

13? No, it's 14-17 IIRC.

[Blue Ghost]

So if I understand this correctly the generally agreed upon level of the Order of the Stick is level 13, correct. If Xykon needs to be level 26 to cast maximized energy drain, then with the LA of +5 for a lich there main villian is the equivilent of a level 31 character! There seems to be no possible way for them to stand a hope of deafeting him.

I think it's quite obvious that none of the OOTS has a chance of defeating Xykon in the conventional way, as was proven by the disastrous battle between Xykon and Redcloak. Even Vaarsuvius was not able to beat Xykon with the Soul Splice, though that may have been due to stupidity rather than a power discrepancy. Level 26 seems reasonable for Xykon.

[speeddemon]

They can't. That's why they are trying to beat him to the Gates rather than just killing him.

See the problem with that is, if they destroy all the gates before Xykon gets to them they destroy the world so they can't do that. What other point could they have of getting to the gates before him if they can't, move, take, destroy, or hide it.

[speeddemon]

13? No, it's 14-17 IIRC.

It can't be 17 or V and Durkon would have 9th level spells.
It also can't be 15 or higher or they would have 8th level spells

[rainbowjo]

See the problem with that is, if they destroy all the gates before Xykon gets to them they destroy the world so they can't do that. What other point could they have of getting to the gates before him if they can't, move, take, destroy, or hide it.

Fortify defenses/warn the possibly survivng Order of the scribble members there.

[Hurkyl]

He also made a ring of elemental Immunity: Fire.
A greater ring of energy resistance is enough, for all practical purposes.

[veti]

See the problem with that is, if they destroy all the gates before Xykon gets to them they destroy the world so they can't do that. What other point could they have of getting to the gates before him if they can't, move, take, destroy, or hide it.

Proper setup and preparation can make up for a lot of levels. (Who hasn't seen a pack of kobolds beat off a 6th-7th level party?) With enough time, the OOTS can prepare the ground for Xykon. And particularly if they can persuade the surviving 'Scribble member, if any, to support them, they might easily be able to set up an ambush that's sufficiently weighted to give them the edge over him.

[Elfin]

A greater ring of energy resistance is enough, for all practical purposes.

But that's irrelevant, since he says that he crafted an item to make him immune.

[Hurkyl]

But that's irrelevant, since he says that he crafted an item to make him immune.
Unless, of course, he's taking the liberty that most people do in common speech, and ignoring low-probability events for the sake of efficient communication, especially when the vast majority of the time, the damage would be completely insignificant.

Of course, if he really did want complete immunity to meteor swarm splash, he only needs to cook up an extra 6 points of fire resistance.

[Bibliomancer]

Unless, of course, he's taking the liberty that most people do in common speech, and ignoring low-probability events for the sake of efficient communication, especially when the vast majority of the time, the damage would be completely insignificant.

Of course, if he really did want complete immunity to meteor swarm splash, he only needs to cook up an extra 6 points of fire resistance.

Average damage from meteor swarm (no direct hits and all four directed at one spot): 24d6 = 84 damage (average)

Major energy resistance: 30

There's a large enough discrepancy here that true immunity is needed, especially since there is no established way to get resistance higher than 30 to my knowledge.

[Hurkyl]

Average damage from meteor swarm (no direct hits and all four directed at one spot): 24d6 = 84 damage (average)

Major energy resistance: 30

There's a large enough discrepancy here that true immunity is needed, especially since there is no established way to get resistance higher than 30 to my knowledge.
See the following:

Fire resistance applies to each sphere’s damage individually.
Each sphere does 6d6 splash fire damage, and has less than 1% chance of doing any damage at all to a character with 30 points of fire resistance.

[speeddemon]

Proper setup and preparation can make up for a lot of levels. (Who hasn't seen a pack of kobolds beat off a 6th-7th level party?) With enough time, the OOTS can prepare the ground for Xykon. And particularly if they can persuade the surviving 'Scribble member, if any, to support them, they might easily be able to set up an ambush that's sufficiently weighted to give them the edge over him.

Your forgeting that even provided the Order of the Stick is level 17, thats a 14 level gap between Xykon's lich level adjusted 26 self. That would be very hard to beat even with preperation and theirs Redcloak, and the Monster in the shadow. As for getting the old Order of the Scribble members most are already dead of old age. Besides Xykon has already proven he can beat them as he did to Dorukon. Heck the only reason Soon's ghost beat him was he had hundreds of paladin ghosts on his side and most of Xykons spells didn't work on him.

[Bibliomancer]

Each sphere does 6d6 splash fire damage, and has less than 1% chance of doing any damage at all to a character with 30 points of fire resistance.

Ah. I didn't know that. Thanks for the clarification.


Your forgeting that even provided the Order of the Stick is level 17, thats a 14 level gap between Xykon's lich level adjusted 26 self. That would be very hard to beat even with preperation and theirs Redcloak, and the Monster in the shadow. As for getting the old Order of the Scribble members most are already dead of old age. Besides Xykon has already proven he can beat them as he did to Dorukon. Heck the only reason Soon's ghost beat him was he had hundreds of paladin ghosts on his side and most of Xykons spells didn't work on him.

That and the fact that Xykon charged in with no plan, no information, and no preparations (like V), and Soon was powerful enough to go toe to toe with an (unprepared) lich.

[Spiky]

Heck the only reason Soon's ghost beat him was he had hundreds of paladin ghosts on his side and most of Xykons spells didn't work on him.

I would disagree. Soon was the only one really damaging him. Xykon's own words state his lack of understanding of the ghosts' state (and his own magic) to be the only reason any of them but Soon did anything to Xykon at all. And Soon himself was a similar level, and better prepared. That was a good fight. I wish we'd seen more of it.

[Zevox]

So if I understand this correctly the generally agreed upon level of the Order of the Stick is level 13, correct.
Close, it's more like 14 now. V has been pegged at 14 exactly after seeing all the high-level spells she was throwing around just before her deal with the fiends, and Elan is 14 minimum because his new spells mean he's a 13th level Bard exactly and we know he has at least 1 of Dashing Swordsman to go wit that. Odds are the rest of the Order is about there too, though Roy may be as low as 12 due to his level lost from Resurrection.


If Xykon needs to be level 26 to cast maximized energy drain, then with the LA of +5 for a lich there main villian is the equivilent of a level 31 character! There seems to be no possible way for them to stand a hope of deafeting him.
Actually, LA for a Lich is only +4, not +5. And keep in mind that level adjustment is designed to balance the character for use as a PC, not as an NPC challenge for PCs. For that you use CR, which is only +2 for a Lich, making him an average encounter difficulty for a level 28 party. For a boss-level foe you'd expect to facing him a few levels below that, maybe more like early-mid 20s.

But yes, Xykon is well beyond the Order's capabilities at this time without a lot of luck or a very good strategy, and they are not expected to go destroy him anytime soon.

Zevox

[Thanatosia]

Actually, LA for a Lich is only +4, not +5. And keep in mind that level adjustment is designed to balance the character for use as a PC, not as an NPC challenge for PCs. For that you use CR
If I could go off on a tangent here, I've never understood why CR and LA is not the same. The thing is, the CR of any random villain NPC is equal to the characters Level. So if a lv24 wizard is a CR24 encounter, and a lv20 Lich is treated as equal in power to a lv24 wizard, then why is a lv20 lich only a CR22 encounter? The whole CR system seems to vastly encourage pcs to hunt down other humanoids with Character Levels, as that always gives the most xp and treasure relative to the actual difficulty of the encounter (in so far as PCs are given a choice of what to fight, wich is admitadly largely GM controled). It always just struck me as a bad component of D&Ds game balancing.

[Forbiddenwar]

If I could go off on a tangent here, I've never understood why CR and LA is not the same. The thing is, the CR of any random villain NPC is equal to the characters Level. So if a lv24 wizard is a CR24 encounter, and a lv20 Lich is treated as equal in power to a lv24 wizard, then why is a lv20 lich only a CR22 encounter? The whole CR system seems to vastly encourage pcs to hunt down other humanoids with Character Levels, as that always gives the most xp and treasure relative to the actual difficulty of the encounter (in so far as PCs are given a choice of what to fight, wich is admitadly largely GM controled). It always just struck me as a bad component of D&Ds game balancing.

As far as I understand it, it is used to discourage Players playing monsters. The sidebar in the book, i think, says that there is a big difference between a NPC that has an at will invisibiliy SPA, and a player with an at will invisibility SPA. The difference is that the NPC might use it once or twice before being defeated and killed, whereas the player would probable spend every second of every day invisible. Imagine a rogue with that ability.

[kpenguin]

You mean like a warlock?

[Berserk Monk]

No, he only has two "FEET"s.:smallbiggrin:

[Boci]

As far as I understand it, it is used to discourage Players playing monsters. The sidebar in the book, i think, says that there is a big difference between a NPC that has an at will invisibiliy SPA, and a player with an at will invisibility SPA. The difference is that the NPC might use it once or twice before being defeated and killed, whereas the player would probable spend every second of every day invisible. Imagine a rogue with that ability.

DR: X / magic is another thing that means a lot to PCs but not to monsters.

[Hitorijun]

So if I understand this correctly the generally agreed upon level of the Order of the Stick is level 13, correct. If Xykon needs to be level 26 to cast maximized energy drain, then with the LA of +5 for a lich there main villian is the equivilent of a level 31 character! There seems to be no possible way for them to stand a hope of deafeting him.

This is still solved by this...


I wouldn't worry to much about his feats. Rich made the comic so that plot comes first, then rules, and if we let the latter get in the way, then the former is spoilt.

[Souhiro]

Xykon is an epic EXPERIENCED spellcaster, who has the meddling RedCloak, the Tsukiko girl and the MitD, that does an Arcane Caster, Divine Caster, Munchkin Caster and Near-Epic Meatshield Tank.

The Sacred Order of the Stick has Roy, a weakened meatshield for almos a year of inactivity; Vaarsuvius, an unrealiable wizard; Durkon, and slow and portable box of band-aids; Belkar, a sexy shoeless god of war with less than 6 months to live; Haley, a girl with a bow; and Elan, who is just... Elan.


And worse of that, we know that at least Elan will survive and live happily ever after.

[Acero]

Xykon is an epic EXPERIENCED spellcaster, who has the meddling RedCloak, the Tsukiko girl and the MitD, that does an Arcane Caster, Divine Caster, Munchkin Caster and Near-Epic Meatshield Tank.

The Sacred Order of the Stick has Roy, a weakened meatshield for almosT a year of inactivity; Vaarsuvius, an unrealiable wizard; Durkon, and slow and portable box of band-aids; Belkar, a sexy shoeless god of war with less than 6 months to live; Haley, a girl with a bow; and Elan, who is just... Elan.



i belive it was stated that tsukiko is ony like level 7, so shes not that bug a threat.
the MitD could even turn good at any moment. he's never even done anything evil....
Roy is party leader, so he will always be the strongest, even if he isn't. (and he has a cleric-slaying move)
V is reliable when you need something destroyed. (aka reiable)
Durkon's got Thor on his side. 9 outa 10 gods want X dead
Belkar and Haley..... 'nuf said
and Elan. he's the comedy relief

[Lamech]

Clearly Xykons level 8 spells are embrace the dark chaos and shun the dark chaos. He also has a touchstone feat, and spends a week in his oytough filled dungeon every so often. He also has a couple flaws. Thats plenty of feats to go around. /powergamer

Well lets see, he has 8 from level 21 human, rich may have decided to give him a bonus feat every five levels. (Otherwise sorc. have no reason what so ever not to multiclass.) Xykon probably has sudden maximize, sudden still or still, a few item crafting feats (rod, ring, wonderous) and epic level spell casting, probably increased capacity once or twice as well. That gets eight.

[Zevox]

i belive it was stated that tsukiko is ony like level 7, so shes not that bug a threat.
No, we've never been told her exact level, but she's definitely higher than that. As a Mystic Theurge able to cast 5th-level spells (like Mind Fog and Teleport) she's a minimum of level 12 (Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 6, for CL 9 in both classes). Still not that great of a threat, since her power is in the diversity and quantity of her spellcasting, not the quality. She's great against lesser foes, even in large numbers, but against higher-level opponents like the Order, she'd only be a threat in a 1-on-1, and even there only against the non-casters and Elan.

Zevox

[Kurald Galain]

A greater ring of energy resistance is enough, for all practical purposes.

Precisely.

[Kish]

The whole CR system seems to vastly encourage pcs to hunt down other humanoids with Character Levels, as that always gives the most xp and treasure relative to the actual difficulty of the encounter (in so far as PCs are given a choice of what to fight, wich is admitadly largely GM controled).
And more to the point, going, "We'll hunt down and fight other humanoids with character levels for XP and treasure because they'll have the most relative to the difficulty of the encounter!" is totally metagaming.


The Sacred Order of the Stick
...Huh?

[Lamech]

And more to the point, going, "We'll hunt down and fight other humanoids with character levels for XP and treasure because they'll have the most relative to the difficulty of the encounter!" is totally metagaming.
Hunting down people because they are an easier source of money than, monsters is totally not metagaming. The PC's should learn it fairly quickly, but they will after a few fights/kills. And then hunting easy money bags is tolally legit. And evil.

P.S. The xp thing is true though.

[Bagelz]

why does Xykon need to be 26 to cast maximized energy drain?
3.5 epic rules don't give you spell levels above 9 (without special feats) it much more likely that he has a magic item or feat that lets him reduce the spell level adjuster for his metamagics (again most feats won't let you reduce the ajuster lower than 1 to zero, making metamagic impossible for a lvl 9 spell, but there are exceptions). I'm pretty sure you can maximize a lvl9 spell by 23.


And the reason CR is different than level adjuster, is because you have a party of 4-8 PCs, you have 1 lich. If you make 1 monster a lich that is ecl +2, if you make a party of 4 lich monsters that is +4 (double number +1, double again +1, lich +2 = +4 total).

[Jalor]

sudden maximize
Any particularly compelling reason he wouldn't have taken it? As the BBEG, he wouldn't exactly be fighting level-appropriate challenges 4 times a day. A single Maximized high-level spell tends to end fights on its own when you're several levels above everything else.

We've also already seen Team Evil using splatbooks, so there's no reason he didn't take something like Metamagic School Focus, Easy Metamagic, and a single Improved Spell Capacity for 10th level spell slots. The Epic Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/classProgressions.htm#epicSorcerer) gets a bonus feat at 23rd level, which was probably the Improved Spell Capacity. I have no idea what kind of blaster Sorc in a low power world wouldn't take Easy Metamagic for Maximize Spell, and Metamagic School Focus is great to put on Necromancy if you use it. Extended False Life at character level 3? Split Ray Enervation in a 5th level slot? YAHTZEE!

[Salty]

Clearly Xykons level 8 spells are embrace the dark chaos and shun the dark chaos. He also has a touchstone feat, and spends a week in his oytough filled dungeon every so often. He also has a couple flaws. Thats plenty of feats to go around. /powergamer

Well lets see, he has 8 from level 21 human, rich may have decided to give him a bonus feat every five levels. (Otherwise sorc. have no reason what so ever not to multiclass.) Xykon probably has sudden maximize, sudden still or still, a few item crafting feats (rod, ring, wonderous) and epic level spell casting, probably increased capacity once or twice as well. That gets eight.

He would have at least 9 feats at 21st level. He would get normal feats at levels 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, and 21, as well as another for being a human. Odds are he's a bit higher than that, maybe around 24-26, which would give him a couple more, but yeah, I agree with your idea. He's bound to have enough. :smallbiggrin:

[good_lookin_gus]

Well lets see, he has 8 from level 21 human, rich may have decided to give him a bonus feat every five levels. (Otherwise sorc. have no reason what so ever not to multiclass.)

O RLY? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/classProgressions.htm#epicSorcerer)

Assuming that by "multiclass" you meant "take a prestige class with full caster level progression;" which of those prestige classes would fit Xykon's character?

[Starbuck_II]

why does Xykon need to be 26 to cast maximized energy drain?
3.5 epic rules don't give you spell levels above 9 (without special feats) it much more likely that he has a magic item or feat that lets him reduce the spell level adjuster for his metamagics (again most feats won't let you reduce the ajuster lower than 1 to zero, making metamagic impossible for a lvl 9 spell, but there are exceptions). I'm pretty sure you can maximize a lvl9 spell by 23.

Yeah it does: Epic feats can do that.


Improved Spell Capacity [Epic]
Prerequisite
Ability to cast spells of the normal maximum spell level in at least one spellcasting class.

Benefit
When you select this feat, you gain one spell slot per day of any level up to one level higher than the highest-level spell you can already cast in a particular class. You must still have the requisite ability score (10 + spell level) in order to cast any spell stored in this slot. If you have a high enough ability modifier to gain one or more bonus spells for this spell level, you also gain the bonus spells for this spell level. You must use the spell slot as a member of the class in which you can already cast spells of the normal maximum spell level.

Special
You can gain this feat multiple times.

[Lamech]

O RLY? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/classProgressions.htm#epicSorcerer)

Assuming that by "multiclass" you meant "take a prestige class with full caster level progression;" which of those prestige classes would fit Xykon's character?
Incantrix, IotSFV, archmage, all good choices. Anyway the point was the bonus feats would be a very sane houserule choice to give a sorc at least half a reason to not prestige out at first chance.

[Thajocoth]

Close, it's more like 14 now. V has been pegged at 14 exactly after seeing all the high-level spells she was throwing around just before her deal with the fiends, and Elan is 14 minimum because his new spells mean he's a 13th level Bard exactly and we know he has at least 1 of Dashing Swordsman to go wit that. Odds are the rest of the Order is about there too, though Roy may be as low as 12 due to his level lost from Resurrection.

Roy was "The highest level PC" in Azure City during the battle. Also, I'm pretty sure Elan is a Cleric of Banjo.

[Aldrakan]

Also, I'm pretty sure Elan is a Cleric of Banjo.

He's a cleric of Banjo, not a Cleric of Banjo. Or to put it in a less pointlessly confusing way, he worships and preaches the word of Banjo (when he remembers to), but he doesn't have any levels in cleric. He gave up on taking a cleric level when Banjo's worshipers deserted him.

[Lamech]

No, we've never been told her exact level, but she's definitely higher than that. As a Mystic Theurge able to cast 5th-level spells (like Mind Fog and Teleport) she's a minimum of level 12 (Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 6, for CL 9 in both classes). Still not that great of a threat, since her power is in the diversity and quantity of her spellcasting, not the quality. She's great against lesser foes, even in large numbers, but against higher-level opponents like the Order, she'd only be a threat in a 1-on-1, and even there only against the non-casters and Elan.

Zevox
Wind Wall, solid fog, toss some empowered fireballs or flamestrikes in there, if your a jerk, use incense of meditation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/WondrousItems.htm). (And if you go with RAW, the ablity to prepare higher level spells is the effect, and the maximized spells is just a nice addition.) Haley will probably make her saves as will Belkar. Roy and Elan will be fairly badly hurt. V or Durkon might be able to actually do something. And this would be flat out devestating if Xykon let her borrow a rod of quicken.

Oh, and Belkar will get dominated too. How can we forget that little detail. So I think if she fights smart she kills the order of the stick minus V and Durkon.

P.S. Her CL is almost certainly eighteen if she can buff up since she moved 6 wights in. She probably doesn't cast spells as a 18th level, its proably the results of buffs increasing her caster level.

[GSFB]

Two things.

First:


He also made a ring of elemental Immunity: Fire.

I believe what he ACTUALLY made was a ring of immunity to his meteor swarm spell. He could make this much more efficiently than he could make a ring granting full fire immunity (assuming we are using the epic rule book).

Second:

There is no limit to the number of feats any epic level NPC could have, because there are ways to gain feats beyond normal class/levels. He could have used Wish spells (or RC could have cast Miracles) to gain feats. There are a number of magical tomes that can grant feats. He could also have magic items that replicate the effects of feats. Because he has been a very high level for a very long time and has killed many a high-level opponent (and taken his stuff) he could have all sorts of extras.

[MReav]

Two things.

I believe what he ACTUALLY made was a ring of immunity to his meteor swarm spell. He could make this much more efficiently than he could make a ring granting full fire immunity (assuming we are using the epic rule book).


I've shown with the proper splat books, you can make a non-epic item that grants fire immunity.

In fact, looking back, it would be cheaper to have Redcloak help make it.

[good_lookin_gus]

Incantrix, IotSFV, archmage, all good choices.

I'm pretty certain that OotS doesn't take place in Faerûn. Even if it does; Xykon is male and primarily concerned with undead, not Outsiders. IotSFV seems like a valid option until you read SoD, then the feature class abilities are rendered moot. Archmage is core as well as Open Source but honestly, if Xykon was going to bother meeting those stringent requirements he'd have bothered optimizing his spell list, too. I also can't see him taking Skill Focus:Spellcraft.


Anyway the point was the bonus feats would be a very sane houserule choice to give a sorc at least half a reason to not prestige out at first chance.

I again have to recommend SoD as a rebuttal. A recursive theme is Xykon's ire at the notion of Sorcerers being gimped in terms of ability. So you see, it wouldn't make much sense for the Giant to arbitrate a significant power boost for them.

[Trixie]

I wouldn't worry to much about his feats. Rich made the comic so that plot comes first, then rules, and if we let the latter get in the way, then the former is spoilt.

Please, can you people stop citing something with no basis in comic whatsoever, which is patently false and insulting to writer?

Giant went so far to write how Miko battled OotS, round by round, to prove he abides by rules, not by "plot", and yet, every other thread has people stating something basically equaling "Giant is dumb, he can't even keep D&D rules straight in a comic based on D&D".

No, "plot" never broke rules, they were (if we are generous) slightly bent maybe twice in the entire comic run. Just every plot point or resolution is made according to rules, as without them (as a defining point), it would be only a generic fantasy comic strip like a million others. :smallsigh:

[Lamech]

I'm pretty certain that OotS doesn't take place in Faerûn. Even if it does; Xykon is male and primarily concerned with undead, not Outsiders. IotSFV seems like a valid option until you read SoD, then the feature class abilities are rendered moot. Archmage is core as well as Open Source but honestly, if Xykon was going to bother meeting those stringent requirements he'd have bothered optimizing his spell list, too. I also can't see him taking Skill Focus:Spellcraft.Incantrix is a great class for people who like blasting, and the female req was dropped. Also I fail to see how the viels would be rendered moot... You mean he didn't demonstrate any of the ablities?




I again have to recommend SoD as a rebuttal. A recursive theme is Xykon's ire at the notion of Sorcerers being gimped in terms of ability. So you see, it wouldn't make much sense for the Giant to arbitrate a significant power boost for them.They would still be considered gimped because of the limited spell selection. Thats why people don't like them compared to wizards in the first place. Its not because of the feats. In OotS its also the fact that wizards think themselves smarter.

[Milandros]

If I could go off on a tangent here, I've never understood why CR and LA is not the same. The thing is, the CR of any random villain NPC is equal to the characters Level. So if a lv24 wizard is a CR24 encounter, and a lv20 Lich is treated as equal in power to a lv24 wizard, then why is a lv20 lich only a CR22 encounter? The whole CR system seems to vastly encourage pcs to hunt down other humanoids with Character Levels, as that always gives the most xp and treasure relative to the actual difficulty of the encounter (in so far as PCs are given a choice of what to fight, wich is admitadly largely GM controled). It always just struck me as a bad component of D&Ds game balancing.

There's a simple, and logical explanation.

Some bilities are much more powerful and useful to a PC, where he can use them repeatedly throughout his adventuring career, than they are to a monster in an encounter, which may or may not get to use them once before they are killed.

For example, Immunity to Disease is very useful to a PC. It allows the PC to face certain monsters with much less risk, removes the risk of plagues and the like, and is generally a very nice thing to have. For a monster, on the other hand, unless the PCs have memorised Contagion or Cause Disease spells, it's pretty useless - and how many players would use that instead of a fireball or equivalent anyway?

Another example is, say +2 to several stats. It makes the monster very slightly tougher for the three or four rounds that it takes to kill it. For a PC, it gets used every attack roll/damage roll/spot check/save/spell DC/whatever.

A third example would be a 3d6 ranged touch energy attack. For a monster, it's a nice attack ability, but 3d6 damage is hardly exceptional for monsters. It's the monster's main weapon. For a PC, it's a super ability that lets them fight creatures with DR, never run out of ammo, never be disarmed, lets them hit massively armoured behemoths and do damage, and so on.

Finally, a vampire's ability to go into a gaseous form when brought to 0 hit points and escape is nice colour, and forces the players to track down the thing to its lair. They get the XP for defeating it regardless. For a PC, gaseous form on "death" makes them almost unkillable.

Therefore, some sets of abilities may make a monster slightly tougher, but a PC gets so much more repeating use out of it than a monster does that the level adjustment is more significant for the PC than for the monster.


As a final note, generally templates make a character weaker than straight class levels do (which doesn't stop people trying to create axiomatic feral half-dragon half-troll-half-vampire gelatinous awakened dire bear characters). That's also fine; taking an unusual race/class combination should be to make a great character, not because it's phenomenally powerful. The number of games in which the most outrageous monstrous creatures make up the party, and still somehow easily get work from human patrons, sleep in halfling inns and get welcomed into tiny elven settlements to buy the huge brilliant energy shocking burst lesser xvart bane khopesh that their wizard has for some reason crafted for sale in his warehouse-sized super-magi-mart.

[ericgrau]

The reason Xykon is at least level 26 is because that's how long it takes to get enough epic feats to cast maximized energy drain and epic spells. So there are still only 7 pre-epic feats to account for, regardless of his epic level. So far we have maximize spell, still spell, craft wondrous items, and 4 other unknowns.

As for his CR, it's 28+, since Lich increases it by 2. Another reason LA is higher than CR is that PCs get more wealth than NPCs. Assuming conquering Azure city made Xykon a bit richer, that could also boost his CR. OotS has foreknowledge of his abilities, which also helps a great deal. And normally CR = party level + 5 is an even fight for a party of 6. That's still well beyond the level of the OotS.

But they are going to the next gate to warn the gate's current defenses to prepare, and to offer their aid. Not to tackle an encounter 10 levels beyond their ability. Among the gate's defenses may be an epic illusionist, if the last 3 gates tell us anything about their creators.

[good_lookin_gus]

Incantrix is a great class for people who like blasting, and the female req was dropped. Also I fail to see how the viels would be rendered moot... You mean he didn't demonstrate any of the ablities?

Well the text still says that male Incantatars are rare, though a joke could excuse that. There's still no reason to believe that the class exists in the OotS-verse. The veils wouldn't have any effect during most of his development because SoD was in black and white.



They would still be considered gimped because of the limited spell selection. Thats why people don't like them compared to wizards in the first place. Its not because of the feats. In OotS its also the fact that wizards think themselves smarter.

Here you're just treating your opinion as fact. And Wizards will of course consider themselves smarter than Sorcerers, they have a higher Intelligence score.

[Optimystik]

Please, can you people stop citing something with no basis in comic whatsoever, which is patently false and insulting to writer?

Giant went so far to write how Miko battled OotS, round by round, to prove he abides by rules, not by "plot", and yet, every other thread has people stating something basically equaling "Giant is dumb, he can't even keep D&D rules straight in a comic based on D&D".

No, "plot" never broke rules, they were (if we are generous) slightly bent maybe twice in the entire comic run. Just every plot point or resolution is made according to rules, as without them (as a defining point), it would be only a generic fantasy comic strip like a million others. :smallsigh:

your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Silverraptor]

your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

I agree, it's a pretty convincing argument.