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Dragon Elite
2009-09-20, 10:40 PM
I am planning to build a psion soon, what powers should I choose?
I was thinking going shaper, with Astral construct, mind thrust, and grease.

Pika...
2009-09-20, 10:43 PM
As an avid psion fan I'd say just take what you think will be fun.

However, if you're going shaper take Astral Construct. But if your DM enforces the Complete Psionics (or as I like to call it Complete Crud) "errata" you need to buy a book for and is extremely stupid and unfair, then I'd suggest avoiding shaper like the plague.

Samb
2009-09-20, 11:47 PM
As an avid psion fan I'd say just take what you think will be fun.

However, if you're going shaper take Astral Construct. But if your DM enforces the Complete Psionics (or as I like to call it Complete Crud) "errata" you need to buy a book for and is extremely stupid and unfair, then I'd suggest avoiding shaper like the plague.
That's awefully harsh for the book that brought you linked power, metapower, mantles and practised manifester. I never make a psi PC without that book. And you call yourself a psionics fan tsk tsk. Lord forbid you can't make 100 astral constructs now, it was RAI to begin with and your DM must be autistic to allow it. Hostile empathic tranfer nerf? Was it that good to begin with (mind effecting=fail)?

I say astral construct is not that great at level one. Minor creation might be better with Linked power. Use crystal shard and link it with minor creation to make poison in your targets wounds! Make you own food and never spend money on rations. At high levels you can encase your enemies in steelwood for uber battlefield control. Minor creation rocks and is only limited to your imagination, with linked power it has applications in combat too.

Also consider synchronicity, this power has a lot of potential and the augmented version makes it ideal for linked power or twin power to make DMs want to ban you..... use with caution.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-21, 12:08 AM
Because getting broken cheese is such a good trade off fo losing a fun archetype? It was an unnecessary errata (unlike the energy missiles/stun ones).

Starsinger
2009-09-21, 12:13 AM
Lord forbid you can't make 100 astral constructs now, it was RAI to begin with and your DM must be autistic to allow it.

I thought the horrible "errata" from Complete Psionics was that Astral Constructs had to have one of the lame forms instead of "build it yourself".

1of3
2009-09-21, 12:17 AM
The astral form power was only changed so that can only have one construct at a time. Frankly, that was good enough for me.

Samb
2009-09-21, 12:22 AM
I thought the horrible "errata" from Complete Psionics was that Astral Constructs had to have one of the lame forms instead of "build it yourself".

The feat ectopic form allowed you make pre-constructed ACs that had some abilities that weren't on the list, some also had better stats than normal ACs. You don't have to take the feat, you could still make your own AC, it was just to make things easier on your DM.

Even before CPsi came out I was only making one AC. I just assumed you could only have one as RAI (guess what? I was right!). If you had to have an army of AC as your only way to play a psion then sorry, you need to find a new (and funner) way to play psion, because spamming the same power over and over is just lame.

Draz74
2009-09-21, 12:26 AM
Wow, where to start, there are just too many good directions to go with Psion.

Shaper isn't the best, but it's not bad. Astral Construct is incredible even with the nerf, but like Samb said, Level 1 isn't really where it shines. Still, it won't suck too badly.

I'm personally kind of a fan of Mind Thrust, but be careful of enemies with great Will saves or immunity to mind-affecting. Energy Ray might be a safer choice, but Mind Thrust is fine too unless it's an Undead campaign.

I'm actually not much of a fan of Psionic Grease. It's one of the few combat powers you could pick that does NOT Augment and therefore stay useful in later levels. That's on top of the usual problems with Grease: one-round duration (:smallyuk:) at Level 1, and a tiny area of effect. (Where Grease really shines is where a mid-level Sorcerer casts Heightened Scuplted Grease.)

Other good options: Minor Creation, Vigor (for sharing with a Psicrystal), Defensive Precognition.

Teron
2009-09-21, 01:08 AM
Lord forbid you can't make 100 astral constructs now, it was RAI to begin with and your DM must be autistic to allow it.
I was going to dispute that it's RAI and point out that spellcasters can summon any number of creatures and even several with a single spell, but being autistic, I guess I don't know what I'm talking about.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-09-21, 01:12 AM
I was going to dispute that it's RAI and point out that spellcasters can summon any number of creatures and even several with a single spell, but being autistic, I guess I don't know what I'm talking about.

I agree with you i don't belive AC should be limited to 1. there not that powerfull.. I'd say they compaire to a wizards summoner.

Draz74
2009-09-21, 01:25 AM
I was going to dispute that it's RAI and point out that spellcasters can summon any number of creatures and even several with a single spell, but being autistic, I guess I don't know what I'm talking about.

I agree with you that it probably wasn't really RAI originally, but OTOH I'd argue that it was always a good houserule. Keep bookkeeping down, give other players a chance to act in combat reasonably often, and make the Psion actually use some other powers. I approve.

Pika...
2009-09-21, 08:59 AM
I agree with you that it probably wasn't really RAI originally, but OTOH I'd argue that it was always a good houserule. Keep bookkeeping down, give other players a chance to act in combat reasonably often, and make the Psion actually use some other powers. I approve.

Yeah, but the author's excuse stated that they were going to implement that for everyone. They did not, so he flat out lied.

Also, some of us enjoy bookkeeping. One fo the funnest parts of an Artificer for me.

And if the DM is controlling what spells/powers a player is playing, well that is a controlling DM.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-21, 09:10 AM
That's awefully harsh for the book that brought you linked power, metapower, mantles and practised manifester. I never make a psi PC without that book. And you call yourself a psionics fan tsk tsk. Lord forbid you can't make 100 astral constructs now, it was RAI to begin with and your DM must be autistic to allow it. Hostile empathic tranfer nerf? Was it that good to begin with (mind effecting=fail)?

Let's see: Broken, absurd, decent, useful, and junk (Astral Construct).

You left out: Illithid Heritage (crap), Erudite (broken both ways, unplayable by RAW because of contradictions in the text), Anarchic Initiate (stupid prereqs), Ebon Saint (stupid PrC), the Soulknife PrCs (good), and a plethora of other crap (such as the aligned-Psionics flavor, contradictions in rulings, and infinite loops).


I say astral construct is not that great at level one. Minor creation might be better with Linked power. Use crystal shard and link it with minor creation to make poison in your targets wounds! Make you own food and never spend money on rations. At high levels you can encase your enemies in steelwood for uber battlefield control. Minor creation rocks and is only limited to your imagination, with linked power it has applications in combat too.

...Advocating broken is normally my job, but I at least make sure to have my tongue in cheek.


Also consider synchronicity, this power has a lot of potential and the augmented version makes it ideal for linked power or twin power to make DMs want to ban you..... use with caution.

Oh look, the power that gets mentioned the most.

Samb
2009-09-21, 10:14 AM
Let's see: Broken, absurd, decent, useful, and junk (Astral Construct).

You left out: Illithid Heritage (crap), Erudite (broken both ways, unplayable by RAW because of contradictions in the text), Anarchic Initiate (stupid prereqs), Ebon Saint (stupid PrC), the Soulknife PrCs (good), and a plethora of other crap (such as the aligned-Psionics flavor, contradictions in rulings, and infinite loops).


...Advocating broken is normally my job, but I at least make sure to have my tongue in cheek.



Oh look, the power that gets mentioned the most.
synchronicity was in races of stone first and reprinted in CPsi. Anarchic init is a great PrC for psion who can reach the preqs for it easily. Erudite isn't that bad without spell to power.....I mean you prepare powers instead, it's wording is messed up I do admit.

I pointed out linked power to speed things up, how is that different from speeding up infusions with free action points?

When it comes down to it you guys just demand too much. Complete (samuri anyone?)books have tons of crap and useless stuff yet CPsi gets ****ted on when it is comparable to most of it's comtemparies.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-21, 10:26 AM
synchronicity was in races of stone first and reprinted in CPsi. Anarchic init is a great PrC for psion who can reach the preqs for it easily. Erudite isn't that bad without spell to power.....I mean you prepare powers instead, it's wording is messed up I do admit.

I pointed out linked power to speed things up, how is that different from speeding up infusions with free action points?

When it comes down to it you guys just demand too much. Complete (samuri anyone?)books have tons of crap and useless stuff yet CPsi gets ****ted on when it is comparable to most of it's comtemparies.

Because there's so much wrong with it. CW doesn't errata anyone. Neither did CAdv, CArc (Spell Compendium covered that), CD, or the most recent Completes (barring 3.0 material and the Warmage, the former was updated to be compatible and the latter was just reprinted outright).

CP is the only complete book that issued published Errata as RAW, meaning DMs implementing the book need to either play by the RAW presented or house rule out the garbage (and there's a lot of garbage in it).

This is the biggest gripe with it. And your interpretation of the XPH's version of Astral Construct runs contrary to the RAW, despite what you believed. Remember: the XPH and CP were printed by different authors (one of which is the notorious Bruce Cordell, who is nearly famous for his horrendous publications). It is actually very logical to view the "errata" to Astral Construct as Cordell sneaking his house rules into an official publication.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-21, 10:40 AM
Personal Opinion? The most iconic power with Shaper is easily picked up by a single feat at level 3.

Expanded Knowledge (Astral Construct)

Personal recommendation? Telepath. Once you hit level 7? Schism.

If you have CompPsi, you have the gems that are Synchronicity, Anticipated Strike, and the like. Yeah, they weakened Blasty some, but there's still the touch rays that don't allow saves.

Interestingly enough, with the advent of Practiced Manifester, Cerebremancer is a solid PrC (with an early entry trick for Wizard). Bonus spell points and augmentation are determined by your manifester level, and you know what the difference between a Level 1 power, augmented to 9 power points... and a level 5 power?

The level 1 usually gives you more bang for the buck. With early entry, your augmentation will be unaffected, and your power progression will only be 1 level behind (about on par with sorceror)... In exchange? You get casting, about 1 spell level behind your power level. Lots of versatility, low cost. The casting stat stays the same (with many arcane classes), and you'll be able to use wizard solely for versatility/backup.

If early entry methods (Sanctum Spell, Earth Spell, Precocious Apprentice) aren't allowed, just cut out the wizard. Schism and Practiced Manifester still work beautifully, and Overchannel + Talented (both feats) give you essentially +1 spell level at higher levels, with how augmenting works.

Remember, just cause you're a telepath doesn't mean all you do is mess with minds. Expanded knowledge can get you some of the restricted powers, and there's a lot of powers on each theme that aren't restricted.


Because there's so much wrong with it. CW doesn't errata anyone. Neither did CAdv, CArc (Spell Compendium covered that), CD, or the most recent Completes (barring 3.0 material and the Warmage, the former was updated to be compatible and the latter was just reprinted outright).All I gotta say? Some of the powers in XPH needed to be errata'd. +1PP Augmentation for +1d6 damage AND +1DC? That progressed the psionic DC's at twice the rate of spell DC's.


Remember: the XPH and CP were printed by different authors (one of which is the notorious Bruce Cordell, who is nearly famous for his horrendous publications). It is actually very logical to view the "errata" to Astral Construct as Cordell sneaking his house rules into an official publication.
It's also very logical to view the "errata" to Astral Construct (along with the rest of the errata) as WotC leaving him a memo stating, "When you do this, include these things too. There were a few powers that need scaling back, based on consumer feedback."

Especially Since Cordell is the primary author of both. There is also a Co-author of Comp Psionic... But as he was the author of the first version that you like, it sounds funny to glorify his earlier work without giving him credit, and call him out and name names when he changes his own work.

Samb
2009-09-21, 10:40 AM
Last I checked Burce Cordell wrote the XPH....... Well I never had a problem with the book, I was never devastated by any so called nerf, and I was able to take what I could from it which was a lot.

We have someone just starting on Psion, why not let him make his own opinions on what s good and bad instead crapping on something just because you have an issue with the author.

Samb
2009-09-21, 10:49 AM
PhoenixRivers listed another thing couldn't do without CPsi, schism with practised manifester. If all you so called psionics fans want to belly ache about CPsi then do without linked power, or schism with only -2 ML.

Me and others like PhoenixRivers will be busy enjoying ourselves while you sit and bemoan things long since past.

Zaq
2009-09-21, 11:02 AM
I've never played a Psion (I freely admit that this is 100% theorycraft with little empirical evidence), but AC doesn't seem like the only cool power Shapers get. Minor Creation has already been mentioned, but I like some of the other ones as well. Ectoplasmic Cocoon and Burrowing Bonds both provide a rare Reflex-based save-or-lose. Fabricate and the Greater version are awesome, and Quintessence is fun because it's unique. Nothing else quite does what Quintessence does. Astral Seed is kind of obnoxiously good (not quite on the level of Clone or Astral Projection, but AP is borked anyway).

Sure, these aren't on the same level as (Greater) Metamorphosis, Schism, Hypercognition, or similar powers, but there's still more to being a Shaper than just AC.

If I were to play a Psion, I'd probably play a Shaper, Nomad, or Seer. (Unless it was a Gestalt game in which I could play an awakened cat without the HD/LA eating my manifester level, in which case I would play a Telepath, because a cat with Charm and Suggestion is just too hilarious and adorable.)

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-21, 11:05 AM
Last I checked Burce Cordell wrote the XPH....... Well I never had a problem with the book, I was never devastated by any so called nerf, and I was able to take what I could from it which was a lot.

We have someone just starting on Psion, why not let him make his own opinions on what s good and bad instead crapping on something just because you have an issue with the author.

My bad then. I wasn't referencing the books at the time. You don't have a problem with the nerf because you've been playing with the nerf active before they even printed it. Others didn't, many others. Those were the ones offended by the nerf.

Also, CP was the shortest Complete due to a large amount of excess reprinting. They reprinted a good chunk of the XPH, taking up a good bulk of the book. Also, the reprinted races could have conserved a lot of space by not having the extended level progression (even the Half-Giant was given a 20 level progression, despite only needing a single level).

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-21, 11:06 AM
While I have no problem with Comp Psi, I'd rather it not be an "us" versus "them" kinda thing. Yeah, when erratas come around, you take the good with the bad. Yeah, what Comp Psi took from Astral Construct, it gave in spades to other powers.

Anticipated Strike is probably the most powerful power in that book, for its level. It's essentially a turn, whenever you want it. And there's a dozen ways to pay it back without losing a turn. Stick a death urge, and your opponent will lose his as well, Hit up a Temporal Acceleration for a couple turns, and you pay for the move with a TA turn. If you're using schism, hit up a Temp. Accel. for 1 turn, but use the schism first. give up the TA turn, and you're left one schism power up. (Yes, this works as a less-efficient version of Arcane Fusion)

There's so many ways to manipulate precision action economy with those powers and synchronicity. Worth their weight in gold.

Samb
2009-09-23, 07:52 PM
At level one entangling ectoplasm> grease. You could always use psyreform to change your powers later but I think grease only lasting 1 turn makes it bad for low levels.

Also consider damp power which greatly lowers damage dealt to you by spells or powers.

The_Snark
2009-09-23, 09:27 PM
Also, CP was the shortest Complete due to a large amount of excess reprinting. They reprinted a good chunk of the XPH, taking up a good bulk of the book.

This, as far as I can tell, is one of the main reasons people dislike the book. The others are:

-Specific objections to errata. Most people hate the astral construct nerf; personally, having played in a game with an astral-construct focused character who wasn't subject to it, I'm actually in favor of it (for both balance and convenience), but I can see why it annoys people. Others were badly needed- Energy Missile and Energy Stun come to mind, and Hostile Empathic Transfer was too good in the hands of a psychic warrior.

-The fluff. Why are there psionic elementals now? Powers that channel negative energy? Psychic angels? A lot of people liked psionics because they weren't wrapped up in the Inner and Outer planes (with the exception of the Astral); it made it a little different from conventional magic. Complete Psionic ignored that, and even the stuff that didn't rub people the wrong way wasn't particularly compelling. (With the possible exception of the Ardent; I've heard people say they like the idea behind that.)

-A lot of the material is poorly balanced. On the one hand, we have feats to make a soulknife's mind blade become a mind dire flail, powers that inflict negative levels for a single round (and can't kill the enemy), and the Divine Mind. On the other, we have Linked Power, Anticipatory Strike (the psionic version of Celerity), and Synchronicity. And some of it was plain unimaginative: the ectopic adept and storm disciple are among the most boring prestige classes I've ever seen, and the ectopic form feats don't let you design your own constructs, which is half the fun of that power.

That said, there's decent material in there. The Soulbow actually makes playing a soulknife worthwhile; the Ardent is generally agreed to be okay, and some people like Lurks; Practiced Manifester, Privileged Energy, and the elan racial feats are all solid; some of the powers are fun (like Cranial Deluge or Cerebral Phantasm). It's just that the book was a disappointment to most people when it came out.

... oh yes, this thread had an original topic. Astral Construct is excellent, but not great at level 1, due to the short duration; I'd take it at level 2. Grease suffers from the same problem—someone else pointed out Entangling Ectoplasm, which is also pretty good. Mind Thrust is an okay power, but not as reliable at doing damage as Crystal Shard or Energy Ray (especially at high levels). If you do end up being a shaper, I'd recommend taking Minor Creation—it won't help you in a fight, but it's a handy trick, and it isn't available to spellcasters for several levels.

Samb
2009-09-23, 11:48 PM
That said, there's decent material in there. The Soulbow actually makes playing a soulknife worthwhile; the Ardent is generally agreed to be okay, and some people like Lurks; Practiced Manifester, Privileged Energy, and the elan racial feats are all solid; some of the powers are fun (like Cranial Deluge or Cerebral Phantasm). It's just that the book was a disappointment to most people when it came out.

Most completes had bunch of crap and about 20%-30% decent to good stuff and yet doesn't get the crap that CPsi gets. My point was that psi fans are just being difficult and unpleasable.

I wasn't a fan of the ties to the planes but it does do two things: allow you metamorph into a planetar (without having to be an aasimar) and gives you a way to deal with undead. No matter how grea HET was it doesn't work against undead.
When I read the constructor PrC on Mind's eye I was pretty sure you could only have one AC (constructor's capstone was getting 2 AC out at a time). And errata happen all the time, they implemented for a reason, psionics are not the only ones that suffer through them. You are always free to ignore it or just roll with it, but please stop bashing CPsi, because it kind of makes psionic fans sound whiney.

Draz74
2009-09-24, 12:59 AM
That said, there's decent material in there. The Soulbow actually makes playing a soulknife worthwhile; the Ardent is generally agreed to be okay awesometastic, and some people like Lurks; Practiced Manifester, Privileged Energy, and the elan racial feats are all solid; some of the powers are fun (like Cranial Deluge or Cerebral Phantasm). It's just that the book was a disappointment to most people when it came out.

Fixed that for you.

Myrmex
2009-09-24, 01:18 AM
4th level power called Psychic Reformation. Let's you repick skills, feats, and powers for a low xp cost.

You should always know that power.

Samb
2009-09-24, 01:23 AM
4th level power called Psychic Reformation. Let's you repick skills, feats, and powers for a low xp cost.

You should always know that power.

If you are using Mind's Eye online sources then get a tattoo of psy reformation and put a capacitor on it. Now you can change all your feats and powers at no cost as a stanadard action 1/day (or however many of these tattos you have). Not restricted to psions so a fighter could put a tattoo on and do the same thing.