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Sinfire Titan
2009-09-21, 12:55 PM
Just want to take a moment out of my life to inform the fellow playgrounders just what is wrong in your PHB.

For those of you who don't have a PHB handy, or are too lazy to get it out, here's a link to the relevant section I will be discussing. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilitiesAndSpellcasters)

Yeah, that's right, this is a spellcasting discussion thread.

The Core rules are built around resource management. In this, the DM is assumed to challenge the players to 4 or more encounters per day that encounters are held. Not every day needs to have encounters, and not every day that has them needs all 4.

Let's look at the resources here (Disclaimer: This assumption is based on the Core rules, but will utilize resources outside of Core. As such, this is not restricted to Core only in any way. This is also assuming the Wizard is a member of a party of 4 characters. PvP situations are being ignored):

A 20th level non-specialist Wizard is capable of casting 4 spells of every level he is able to cast (assuming his Int score is high enough). This means the Wizard has a base 40 spells/day, not counting magic items or bonus spells.

Assuming the average encounter is 2 levels above the party's ECL (because the CR system is borked, another issue), it is fully possible for the Wizard to expend anywhere between 3 and 9 spells per combat (the latter is considered a nova, the average would be about 4 or 5 spells per encounter if the player knows how to manage a Wizard). Combat tends to last between 3 and 5 rounds. Longer combats usually see the Wizard pulling out a wand or crossbow or Reserve feat.

Assuming the Wizard is smart enough and a little lucky, the Wizard will only need to expend between 12-20 spells per day. Why is this? Many 5 spell combination are able to neutralize an encounter, rendering the enemy a non-threat. The Wizard can then sit back and leave the remaining effort to his comrades.

If this is the case, then by the end of the day the Wizard will have exhausted an approximate 50% of his base 40 spells per day. At the end of every day, he may very well have 20 spells left over to use as he sees fit.

The main reason this works is because spells are so powerful that the override the assumption WotC made (that an encounter will consume 20% of the party's resources, assuming it is appropriately scaled to their ECL). WotC assumed people would play Blasters, but several people have proven Blasting to be inefficient resource management. Those people refer to the Batman guide and GOD handbook more often than not, advocating Battlefield Control and similar strategies instead.

So the resources are eschewed in favor of the casters. Compare to the noncasters, who must go to extreme lengths to avoid expending even 50% of their abilities each combat (an example would be the Fighter against something like Big T: If the Fighter tries tanking against Big T, he will likely burn through 70% of his HP unless he gets lucky, and even then he cannot end the encounter for more than a minute or so without devoting his time to hitting Big T until the negative HP value is too low for it to recover within a few minutes).

Specialization adds another 10 spells/day. Magic items can add a few more (from Pearls of Power to Rings of Wizardry). This means the Wizard will have even more luxury and freedom after a day's worth of encounters. But those are the weakest of benefits, as they require investments and sacrifices that are usually irrelevant to the Wizard himself.

The biggest offender? Bonus spells. I linked you to the chart with the above link, so let's crunch some numbers here:

Assuming no specialization or magic items that grant additional spells per day as a direct effect, the Wizard will have a base of 40 spells per day. An optimized Wizard will also have an Int score in the low 30's. Let's assume 36, as this is fairly easy to get (18 base+2 race+5 levels+6 Enhancement+5 Inherent=36).

Assuming the Int 36 and 40 base spells/day, the Wizard will have a total of 64 spells/day. At the rate of 20 spells being expended each day, the Wizard will end the day with more spells than the base value simply by expending bonus spells alone. 44 additional spells/day to do with as he pleases.

What the hell was WotC thinking when they kept this in?

For those who don't understand why this is such a big deal, let me spell this out: Every 2 points of Int means the Wizard has additional actions/day that he may never even need, but will have in case he actually does need it. That 36 Int Wizard with the 24 bonus spells? That translates into


4 additional uses of Grease, Protection from X, Ray of Enfeeblement, and other spells.
3 additional uses of spells such as Glitterdust, Levitate, or Invisibility.
3 additional uses of spells such as Fly, Explosive Runes, Dispel Magic, and Stinking Cloud
3 additional uses of Evard's Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Dimension Door, or even Scry or Celerity.
3 additional uses of Cloudkill, Teleport, Wall of Stone, Planar Binding, and other goodies.
2 additional uses of Antimagic Field, Greater Dispel Magic, Acid Fog, Wall of Iron, or other spells.
2 additional uses of Limited Wish, MMM, Plane Shift, Mass Invisibility, Ethereal Jaunt, or Control Weather.
2 additional uses of Polymorph Any Object, Prismatic Wall, Greater Planar Binding, or Summon Monster 8 (one of the best levels for that line).
and 2 additional uses of Time Stop, MDJ, Prismatic Sphere, or Astral Projection


Let's look at it another way: What does the Fighter get for having a Str score of 36?

+13 to attack rolls
+13 to damage rolls
+13 to Strength-based Skill Checks
+13 to Strength-based Ability checks.
Improved save DC for things like Stand Still.
A higher carrying capacity.



So we're comparing a +13 to attacks/damage/skills against 2 extra uses of Time Stop and a %60 increase in spells/day.



Possible solutions includes:


Removing bonus spells entirely. This answer hurts the casters, but also hurts the limited caster even more. Full casters can survive without the addtional 60% spell increase. Paladins, Rangers, Hexblades, Bards, Duskblade, and other limited casters? Not so much.
Bonus feats for the noncasters based on their key ability score. Something of a bad option, as you need to define what makes you lose the benefits (do partial casters get it? If I get the ability to cast spells/day via multiclassing, do I keep the additional feats?). Hard to balance.
Soulmelds, maneuvers, or vestiges/day based on the key score. Helps everyone, but namely the classes that all ready have those abilities (like the Binder).
Spells/day regardless of spellcasting ability, with spell selection limited to class-appropriate spells and a very limited spells known. Also a bad option, but it brings everyone up to the Rocket Tag level. I know many spells that would go nicely with a 20th level Fighter's abilities. May or may not impose MAD, depending on how you handle the casting stat. Makes Gish classes very weak or easy to enter.



If you do not agree with the numbers or opinions in this post, please show your evidence and be civil with your post. Threads such as this have escalated out of control before, and I'd like to be able to address as many questions, comments, or concerns as I can without causing a flame war.

This is not a Caster VS Noncaster thread. This is a thread discussing how to balance out the bonus spells/day rules present in the Core 3.

Lapak
2009-09-21, 01:08 PM
As you yourself mentioned in passing, there's a lot more to solve for level 20 wizards than this. But the fact that they won't even burn through their regular loadout in a standard day of encounters means that fixing the bonus spells is irrelevant; sure, it means that they have that much more of a safety margin, but if they're already using only half their capacity anyway it's not that big a deal.

That aside, an alternate approach to dropping bonus spells outright I've seen around here is to key them off of a different stat. If wizards get bonus spells from high WIS but the effectiveness of those spells (DCs and so on) is determined by INT, you suddenly have to make a choice between quantity and quality. Getting that 36 becomes a lot less trivial.

Whammydill
2009-09-21, 01:19 PM
I ran a campaign where spells per day became spells per week. That actually worked out nicely.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-21, 01:24 PM
One coud redo spell/day to be /encounter (10 minutes) by lowering spells/day #'s.
Cut number by 25% or so.

But there are issues there too.

J.Gellert
2009-09-21, 01:26 PM
Depends where you play. You assume 20 level? My campaigns have always started at level 1.

Yes, that's right. You have 4 encounters, but 3 spells. Let's see you cast one spell each round now!

D&D just gets crazy as levels go up. 1-10, it's alright. 11-15, it shows problems. 16-20, it gets out of hand. Epic, it just makes no sense any more.

Wings of Peace
2009-09-21, 01:30 PM
It's semi-relevant in that it deviates from your point partially but since we're going out of core I think it's worth mentioning that in an entirely optimized group with lots of dips and multi-classing blasting can stay efficient at higher levels but likely will degrade the fun fast. It's rather hard to be more efficient than an aoe that does damage in the hundred especially if you can multi-cast through some method but I would say it's also significantly less fun for the group that way.

LibraryOgre
2009-09-21, 01:31 PM
If you're going to drop bonus spells, I would suggest tweaking the low end of the spectrum so you're not running into 1e/2e's "single shot wizard"; while cantrips help, they're not the solution to that problem.

Philaenas
2009-09-21, 01:32 PM
Yes, a 3.5 wizard has more power at his disposal then, say, a pure fighter... I think the amount of threads concerning this issue is running into the many dozens already...

In the end it will just depend on whether in your particular group people are even playing these high level über wizards. And if so, whether the dudes playing "lesser" fighters are okay with mopping up the mobs mr. wiz disabled.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-21, 01:35 PM
Depends where you play. You assume 20 level? My campaigns have always started at level 1.

Yes, that's right. You have 4 encounters, but 3 spells. Let's see you cast one spell each round now!

D&D just gets crazy as levels go up. 1-10, it's alright. 11-15, it shows problems. 16-20, it gets out of hand. Epic, it just makes no sense any more.

This is where Specialization, Focused Specialization, and an optimized Int score come into play. Focused Specialization nets nearly double the spells, and an Int of 20 gets 2 bonus 1st level spells. So those 4 encounters just become a matter of proper resource management. Precocious Apprentice also adds another spell, and the options can be altered later on in the character's career via PsyReform, or Retraining.

Casters do not need to cast 1 spell/round at the lower levels. At those levels, save or lose spells are the better option.


In the end it will just depend on whether in your particular group people are even playing these high level über wizards. And if so, whether the dudes playing "lesser" fighters are okay with mopping up the mobs mr. wiz disabled.

But then you are not addressing the Elephant in the Room, which is the point of this thread. Sometimes leaving things alone is not an option. This becomes obvious if the players are made aware of the situation: Once you see the Elephant, you can't un-see it. The issue can be ignored, but the resentment it causes will fester.

PId6
2009-09-21, 01:37 PM
I somewhat agree with your conclusion, but your numbers are misleading. For a 20th level wizard, the lower level spells are usually just not useful in combat. They're generally nice in out of combat utility or precombat buffing, but outside a few instances, those slots just can't be used in combat with any degree of effectiveness if the DM is actually sending appropriate challenges. If a wizard uses up all his spells 6-7 and up, he's going to be dramatically less useful in combat (still not completely useless, but much less powerful).

Lets look at your example spells:

* 4 additional uses of Grease, Protection from X, Ray of Enfeeblement, and other spells.
At 20th level, everything should have some kind of protection from Grease. Whether it's high Dex, flight, or ability to fight at range, creatures worthy of actually challenging the party should have some means to deal with Grease. Same for Ray of Enfeeblement; it might weaken some things a little bit, but by this level nearly everything should have enough Strength not to care too much or should be flat out immune, due to true immunity or just very high Touch AC. 1st level spells can be sometimes useful in support like True Strike/True Casting, but at level 20 they just can't do much by themselves (and those are usually Quickened anyway).


* 3 additional uses of spells such as Glitterdust, Levitate, or Invisibility.
Glitterdust has too low of a save DC to matter at this level. Levitate is useless when you should already be flying 24/7. Invisibility can be gotten at-will by a 20k ring, and isn't all that useful when so many things should have counters at this level anyway.


* 3 additional uses of spells such as Fly, Explosive Runes, Dispel Magic, and Stinking Cloud
Fly isn't going to win encounters by itself, and there are much better options for flight at this level. Explosive Runes isn't something you'll be casting in combat, and isn't going to do much unless you really exploit it (a tactic which isn't really affected by spell slots anyway). Dispel Magic shouldn't be dispelling much with only 1d20+10. And while Stinking Cloud can be okay due to its duration and area, the save DC is still relatively low and enemies can just move out of the cloud to avoid continuous exposure.


* 3 additional uses of Evard's Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Dimension Door, or even Scry or Celerity.
Like Grease, enemies at this level should have ways of dealing with Solid Fog and Black Tentacles. If they don't, then they shouldn't be considered a "challenge." Dimension Door is nice, I'll grant you, but that falls under utility and you don't really need to cast it that much in a day. Scry is not something you need to cast each day, and the 1 hour casting time limits it to 1/day at most. Celerity should be banned.


* 3 additional uses of Cloudkill, Teleport, Wall of Stone, Planar Binding, and other goodies.
Here we start getting more useful spells, though it's still not too encounter-worthy at this point. Cloudkill is too easily resisted since Immunity to Poison is so easy to get. Wall of Stone is decent, but again, not something you need to spam too much. Planar Binding is certainly not to be cast in combat. Teleport falls under utility mostly and its only real use in combat is to flee.


* 2 additional uses of Antimagic Field, Greater Dispel Magic, Acid Fog, Wall of Iron, or other spells.
* 2 additional uses of Limited Wish, MMM, Plane Shift, Mass Invisibility, Ethereal Jaunt, or Control Weather.
* 2 additional uses of Polymorph Any Object, Prismatic Wall, Greater Planar Binding, or Summon Monster 8 (one of the best levels for that line).
* and 2 additional uses of Time Stop, MDJ, Prismatic Sphere, or Astral Projection
Starting at 6th, spells become more and more viable in combat, even at 20th.

Really, 1st-5th spells just aren't that great in combat against appropriately challenging opponents. They're nice as utility, but bonus spells there aren't really going to affect your potency in combat too much. These spells just aren't worth casting in combat due to action economy, which is why you've so many spell slots leftover at the end of the day. If you've 20 spells leftover but all of them are 5th or below, you'll be much much weaker than if you've only 4 spells left but they're all 9th level.

Tavar
2009-09-21, 01:39 PM
Also, at level 1 it's hard for anyone to be good because no one has the resources to be good for more than one encounter, much less 4.

lsfreak
2009-09-21, 01:39 PM
Yes, that's right. You have 4 encounters, but 3 spells. Let's see you cast one spell each round now!

D&D just gets crazy as levels go up. 1-10, it's alright. 11-15, it shows problems. 16-20, it gets out of hand. Epic, it just makes no sense any more.

Try 4 1st level and 4 2nd level spells, thanks to an Intelligence of 18, Focused Specialist and Precocious Apprentice. Even without PA, 4 1st levels a day is enough for quite a bit of asskicking.

By 5th level, you have 15 spells available, each of which can either end an encounter or knock it down to being hardly a challenge.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-21, 01:51 PM
I somewhat agree with your conclusion, but your numbers are misleading. For a 20th level wizard, the lower level spells are usually just not useful in combat. They're generally nice in out of combat utility or precombat buffing, but outside a few instances, those slots just can't be used in combat with any degree of effectiveness if the DM is actually sending appropriate challenges. If a wizard uses up all his spells 6-7 and up, he's going to be dramatically less useful in combat (still not completely useless, but much less powerful).

This is true. In fact, those very spells may be the ones not used at the end of the day.


At 20th level, everything should have some kind of protection from Grease. Whether it's high Dex, flight, or ability to fight at range, creatures worthy of actually challenging the party should have some means to deal with Grease. Same for Ray of Enfeeblement; it might weaken some things a little bit, but by this level nearly everything should have enough Strength not to care too much or should be flat out immune, due to true immunity or just very high Touch AC. 1st level spells can be sometimes useful in support like True Strike/True Casting, but at level 20 they just can't do much by themselves (and those are usually Quickened anyway).

1st level spells are likely to be left over, I admit this.


Glitterdust has too low of a save DC to matter at this level. Levitate is useless when you should already be flying 24/7. Invisibility can be gotten at-will by a 20k ring, and isn't all that useful when so many things should have counters at this level anyway.

I've seen instances where Glitterdust is very viable. An Int 36 Wizard can cast Glitterdust with a base Save DC of 25 or higher (and it can get fairly high). Also, out of the CR 20s, only Dragons are likely to have Blindsense/Blindsight, meaning both Glitterdust and Invisibility are somewhat useful.


Fly isn't going to win encounters by itself, and there are much better options for flight at this level. Explosive Runes isn't something you'll be casting in combat, and isn't going to do much unless you really exploit it (a tactic which isn't really affected by spell slots anyway). Dispel Magic shouldn't be dispelling much with only 1d20+10. And while Stinking Cloud can be okay due to its duration and area, the save DC is still relatively low and enemies can just move out of the cloud to avoid continuous exposure.

Agreed, but having nothing but 7 Explosive Runes left over at the end of the day is a dangerous thing, as the Wizard can set up for the next day (hence the reason I listed that spell in particular).


Like Grease, enemies at this level should have ways of dealing with Solid Fog and Black Tentacles. If they don't, then they shouldn't be considered a "challenge." Dimension Door is nice, I'll grant you, but that falls under utility and you don't really need to cast it that much in a day. Scry is not something you need to cast each day, and the 1 hour casting time limits it to 1/day at most. Celerity should be banned.

The point behind Bonus Spells, at least from my opinion, is allowing utility. The problem is that Wizards all ready had enough utility to begin with, and bonus spells make things worse by giving them more of it.

There's a reason Crazy Prepared is a trope. The more options the Wizard is able to prepare, the less likely he will be caught with his pants down.

4th level is also one of the best levels for spells. There's a lot of useful spells out there.



Here we start getting more useful spells, though it's still not too encounter-worthy at this point. Cloudkill is too easily resisted since Immunity to Poison is so easy to get. Wall of Stone is decent, but again, not something you need to spam too much. Planar Binding is certainly not to be cast in combat. Teleport falls under utility mostly and its only real use in combat is to flee.

I only listed some spells. BTW, out of the CR 20s, only Outsiders and Big T are immune. Dragons can suffer (somewhat unlikely, but it still poses a threat to them).


Starting at 6th, spells become more and more viable in combat, even at 20th.

Yes.


Really, 1st-5th spells just aren't that great in combat against appropriately challenging opponents. They're nice as utility, but bonus spells there aren't really going to affect your potency in combat too much. These spells just aren't worth casting in combat due to action economy, which is why you've so many spell slots leftover at the end of the day. If you've 20 spells leftover but all of them are 5th or below, you'll be much much weaker than if you've only 4 spells left but they're all 9th level.

The problem still remains that the noncasters are just getting a +4 bonus to attack rolls for an 18 in a stat, but the Wizard is getting an additional use of Scry, or Dimension Door.

Out of combat spells can often contribute more than you believe. I only listed a short fragment of the options, and nearly neglected every buff/debuff spell out there. Buffs add up, and when the Wizard has the option of preparing +40 buff spells/day without worrying about his combat spells, then the problem becomes a bit bigger. Those spells don't eat into the action economy if cast properly (and I did assume the Wizard is being played properly, remember?). Those spells can shift the outcomes of future encounters.

I should have made that portion a bit more clear, but it is the reason I feel this issue needs to be addressed.

Saph
2009-09-21, 01:52 PM
Issue #1 with your numbers is that you're assuming 20th-level. This, right off the bat, makes your calculations less than relevant for most games, as the majority by far of D&D campaigns are played in the 1-10 range.

Issue #2 is that your calculations don't include utility and long-term buff spells. It's quite possible for a wizard to spend 50% or more of his spells per day on these. For example, my ECL 13 Test of Spite character's morning buff routine involves casting ten spells at minimum, and probably more like fifteen.

Once you take that into account, that vast number of spells starts diminishing pretty rapidly. If I'm a 5th-level generalist wizard with effective Int 20, I've got 5 1st-level and 3 2nd-level and 2 3rd-level spells to play with. Subtract from that hour-long defensive and utility spells like Mage Armour and Rope Trick. Also subtract any stuff specifically needed for the day (spells to deal with whatever weird problems the DM's throwing at us this week). Also subtract any spells that turn out to be useless (you prepared Glitterdust but it turns out the bulk of the enemies aren't invisible and don't care about being blinded; sucks to be you).

That still leaves you with a fair bit of spell power, but nowhere near the massive overkill that you're assuming. Playing as a Wizard, I typically find that the problem isn't running out of spells; the problem is not having enough spell slots to prepare everything I might need.

Zeta Kai
2009-09-21, 01:58 PM
One possible solution that wasn't mentioned was a simple one: Cut the number of standard spells/day available to full-casters. A 30%-50% reduction in the spell slots available to full casters could be a possible solution. Suddenly, full-casters have more of a balanced parity with semi-casters; the Clr/Drd/Sor/Wiz can cast 9th level spells, but the Brd/Pal/Rgrcan cast more lower-level spells per day. Now, the bonus spells mean more to the Tier 1's. Thoughts?

Eldariel
2009-09-21, 02:00 PM
At 20th level, everything should have some kind of protection from Grease. Whether it's high Dex, flight, or ability to fight at range, creatures worthy of actually challenging the party should have some means to deal with Grease. Same for Ray of Enfeeblement; it might weaken some things a little bit, but by this level nearly everything should have enough Strength not to care too much or should be flat out immune, due to true immunity or just very high Touch AC. 1st level spells can be sometimes useful in support like True Strike/True Casting, but at level 20 they just can't do much by themselves (and those are usually Quickened anyway).

Grease can be helpful; many NPC non-casters have great weapons and not-so-great Reflex saves so Greasing their weapon is still a great move. Sure, the save DC is only ~23-26, but that can be difficult for a combatant to make. And yeah, even if they make the save, giving your Rogue free Sneak Attacks is always nice; Balance-ranks don't magically appear so especially in dungeon environment, the spell is still handy.

And Ray of Enfeeblement is, as you said, still handy. Other than that, yeah, level 1 spells aren't very useful offensively on this level (though Benign Transposition, True Strike, etc. are handy).


Glitterdust has too low of a save DC to matter at this level. Levitate is useless when you should already be flying 24/7. Invisibility can be gotten at-will by a 20k ring, and isn't all that useful when so many things should have counters at this level anyway.

Web and Glitterdust are handy. Too low save? Well, sure, if your opponent has good Will-progression, but many creatures and opponents have bad Will-progressions and hitting them with Glitterdust is a great idea (not to mention, it still reveals invisibles).

And Web is great even if opponent DOES make the save whenever the environment enables using the spell unless opponents have Freedom of Movement. Not everything has Freedom of Movement; secondary Web or two are very handy.

And Invisibility can still have roles, especially with characters without natural access to the spell and not enough constant interest to get the item (Ring-slots are really valuable).


Fly isn't going to win encounters by itself, and there are much better options for flight at this level. Explosive Runes isn't something you'll be casting in combat, and isn't going to do much unless you really exploit it (a tactic which isn't really affected by spell slots anyway). Dispel Magic shouldn't be dispelling much with only 1d20+10. And while Stinking Cloud can be okay due to its duration and area, the save DC is still relatively low and enemies can just move out of the cloud to avoid continuous exposure.

Heroism, Rage, Phantom Steed, Slow, Greater Magic Weapon, this level does plenty anyways. Though mostly ally buffs, Slow is a great multitarget non-mindaffecting Will SoL which maintains usefulness even on 20 in a multitude of scenarios. Stinking Cloud is similar at Fort.


Like Grease, enemies at this level should have ways of dealing with Solid Fog and Black Tentacles. If they don't, then they shouldn't be considered a "challenge." Dimension Door is nice, I'll grant you, but that falls under utility and you don't really need to cast it that much in a day. Scry is not something you need to cast each day, and the 1 hour casting time limits it to 1/day at most. Celerity should be banned.

Not every challenge has Freedom of Movement. Those that don't are really screwed by Solid Fog. Even if they DO, stopping attacks with Solid Fog is still useful, and no matter how FoMmed they are, they can't walk through Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, nor attack anyone inside it.

The spell is very definitely useful at this point. Also, I needn't mention Enervation, but I'll do it anyways. Stone Shape and Greater Invisibility and such are very useful too.

[QUOTE=PId6;6971870]Here we start getting more useful spells, though it's still not too encounter-worthy at this point. Cloudkill is too easily resisted since Immunity to Poison is so easy to get. Wall of Stone is decent, but again, not something you need to spam too much. Planar Binding is certainly not to be cast in combat. Teleport falls under utility mostly and its only real use in combat is to flee.[/qoute]

Transmute Rock to Mud, Baleful Polymorph, Waves of Fatigue, Wall of Force, Feeblemind, etc. This spell is der gas regardless of level already.


Overall, there are enough no-save or save-and-still-suffer effects to keep them worthwhile on even level 20; due to the huge variety of opponents you can face, the variety of abilities still maintains usefulness.

Sure, most opponents will make that DC 25 Will/Ref-save, but when you run into ones that have particularly weak save? Nice not to have to burn any high-level spells on them.

As the spell slots are comparatively less powerful, having situational spells in them doesn't hurt; you'll still often end up in a scenario where you can use them, especially if you get creative (I didn't list illusions above, but they obviously always maintain usefulness).


And yeah, against groups of opponents, stuff like Solid Fog, Web, etc. will always be useful (that is, anything without Freedom of Movement), and blocking LoE is never obsolete.

Matthew
2009-09-21, 02:01 PM
Following on from what Saph says, I think it would be useful to show the typical progression over levels of spell power and such. It is also worth mentioning that the game assumes an elite spread for "normal" power levels and probably also humans as the majority protagonist (a poor assumption as it turned out), so intelligence should probably start at 15 and hit 31(ish) at level 20. There is room for manoeuvre in either direction, but the expectation seems to have been a +2 to +10 progression in the primary attribute.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-21, 02:04 PM
One possible solution that wasn't mentioned was a simple one: Cut the number of standard spells/day available to full-casters. A 30%-50% reduction in the spell slots available to full casters could be a possible solution. Suddenly, full-casters have more of a balanced parity with semi-casters; the Clr/Drd/Sor/Wiz can cast 9th level spells, but the Brd/Pal/Rgrcan cast more lower-level spells per day. Now, the bonus spells mean more to the Tier 1's. Thoughts?

That's the exact opposite of what I'm trying to point out here. That places even more value on the bonus spells, when the point of the thread is to make people aware that the option is unbalanced and potentially come up with a solution to balance out this disparity.

The problem isn't that there's too many spells/day. The problem is that casters are the only ones who gain a major benefit from having a high ability score.

Zeta Kai
2009-09-21, 02:10 PM
The problem isn't that there's too many spells/day. The problem is that casters are the only ones who gain a major benefit from having a high ability score.

But, they aren't. A melee combatant with a high Strength gets a bonus to hit & damage on every single swing. A ranged combatant with a high Dexterity gets a bonus to hit on every shot, & can shoot higher in the Initiative count, & is harder to hit. A tank with a high Constitution can take more hits before needing a heal. These are major benefits from having high ability scores, & while their comparision to bonus spells is debatable, they are not insignificant. Each ability score grants added capabilities at higher levels, & not all ability scores are created equal (just as not all classes/races/skills/feats/spells/items/whatevers are created equal). To me, at least, the issue is that casters can do more with each spell than other classes can do with their class features.

In short, the spells are borked, so the casters are borked.

Akal Saris
2009-09-21, 02:12 PM
Here's a solution I'll throw out there: make a house rule that you don't gain bonus spells from spell slots past 5th level spells. That way spell slots help out at the levels where you really need them (1st-8th or so), without leaving a 20th level wizard with many more high level combat slots. It also means that partial casters still get full benefits from their stats, except bards cry a little bit at the end. The bonus low levels spells will still be useful as utility for full casters (nothing like GMW on everyone's weapons and armor spikes!) or for back-up on really rough days, but that's not so terrible.

By the way, I disagree as to a 36 being easily attainable. Most wizards will probably choose human over gray elf or another int race, which brings it down to 34, and +5 inherent bonuses are expensive unless you burn huge amounts of experience/gold/abuse Solars casting wishes for you, which isn't typical gameplay - I'd guess that most wizards probably go for a +3 bonus until they're filthy rich, or +4 if they put some of their normal stat boosts into Con or something. I'd peg 32 as a more realistically attainable number, which reduces the 8th and 9th level slots by 1 each.

By the way Sinfire, what would you propose as fix if you were running a 20th level game and didn't want to completely rewrite the rules?

hamishspence
2009-09-21, 02:13 PM
these are all comparable to the bonus to Save DC that spells get.

The bonus to number of spells is on top of that.

For comparison- suppose the Tome of Battle classes got bonus maneuvers for high stats, as well as the bonus to Save DC for the effects of some maneuvers that allow saves. That is the closest equivalent.

daggaz
2009-09-21, 02:17 PM
Another thing is to just flat out limit the max intelligence you can get. I have yet to play in a game where we got to the point of having 30+ in a main stat.. finding a tome of +2 is a high point, +4 is astounding.. +6 is nearly epic. You certainly dont need to buy them in Ye Olde Magike Shoppe. So if the wizard maxes out at say, 28 int (and really, can you honestly RP anything even that high properly?) then you arent busting the action economy nearly so badly. Another way to do this is to just cap the amount of bonus spells you can receive.. over a certain int and it just stops.

As well, nerfing spells such as celerity, timestop, et al. severely limits the value of the actions the wizard is expending.

PId6
2009-09-21, 02:19 PM
I've seen instances where Glitterdust is very viable. An Int 36 Wizard can cast Glitterdust with a base Save DC of 25 or higher (and it can get fairly high). Also, out of the CR 20s, only Dragons are likely to have Blindsense/Blindsight, meaning both Glitterdust and Invisibility are somewhat useful.

...I only listed some spells. BTW, out of the CR 20s, only Outsiders and Big T are immune. Dragons can suffer (somewhat unlikely, but it still poses a threat to them).
If we're assuming the wizard's playing properly, we should assume the DM is making encounters properly as well, which means scrapping the default CR system. Otherwise an optimized wizard can breeze through every encounter without effort. I'll agree that Glitterdust and Invisibility can be useful, but I doubt that you'll use them more than once or twice a day and that extra 2nd level slots contribute significantly to a wizard 20's power. Same for most other 2nd level spells; utility only goes so far.


The point behind Bonus Spells, at least from my opinion, is allowing utility. The problem is that Wizards all ready had enough utility to begin with, and bonus spells make things worse by giving them more of it.

There's a reason Crazy Prepared is a trope. The more options the Wizard is able to prepare, the less likely he will be caught with his pants down.
The wizard itself is quite invincible if played right, I agree completely there, but the bonus spell system applies to all casters, including ones that aren't inherently broken. Are sorcerers/beguilers/favored souls too strong because of bonus spells? If not, then you should focus on fixing the classes that are a problem, because then the mechanic itself isn't really at fault.


The problem still remains that the noncasters are just getting a +4 bonus to attack rolls for an 18 in a stat, but the Wizard is getting an additional use of Scry, or Dimension Door.
In my opinion, that means something's wrong with noncasters, rather than casters. But then, mid-tier noncasters do get quite a lot from attributes as well. For melee classes, their biggest expenditure is HP, so having more Con means having more resources overall. And having more damage/attack/AC/saves makes them more effective the same way casters get more spells.

The problem with taking away bonus spells is that then casters would barely have any need of attributes at all. Save DCs get increasingly less relevant as you level up, and you don't really care for saves/AC/attack all that much when spells can provide it for you much better. It's true that bonus spells are much better than extra attack/damage/AC/saves for melee, but that's because spells are better than melee. I see this really as only a symptom of the much bigger problem; not as a problem in and of itself.

Tehnar
2009-09-21, 02:23 PM
There is a problem with casting low level spells at higher levels. It is just not efficient if you have a more powerful higher level spell. Sure you can throw out a enervation as a standard action, but is it cost effective to do so?

The quick and easy fix? Limit the number of bonus spells to 1 or 2.

The slightly bigger fix (someone already mentioned this in one of the recent threads, but can't remember who) is make all casters follow the same rule: INT for maximum level of spells, WIS for bonus spells, CHA for spell DC. It is more in line with melees triad of STR/DEX/CON to be effective.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-21, 02:26 PM
By the way Sinfire, what would you propose as fix if you were running a 20th level game and didn't want to completely rewrite the rules?

Stick to Tier 3 and Tier 4. Allow Psionics. Ban PrCs that grant spells above 6th level. Ban magic items that duplicate spells.

Completely rewriting the rules is what I'm working on (which is where the idea for the OP came from).


But, they aren't. A melee combatant with a high Strength gets a bonus to hit & damage on every single swing. A ranged combatant with a high Dexterity gets a bonus to hit on every shot, & can shoot higher in the Initiative count, & is harder to hit. A tank with a high Constitution can take more hits before needing a heal. These are major benefits from having high ability scores, & while their comparision to bonus spells is debatable, they are not insignificant. Each ability score grants added capabilities at higher levels, & not all ability scores are created equal (just as not all classes/races/skills/feats/spells/items/whatevers are created equal). To me, at least, the issue is that casters can do more with each spell than other classes can do with their class features.

In short, the spells are borked, so the casters are borked.

It's more than that. Even if spells weren't broken, the Casters are effectively getting an additional use for their actions/day for a high ability score.

To put it into a translation, the Casters not only get the +X to hit (improved Save DCs), but a new use for the attack action for every single +1.

PId6
2009-09-21, 02:35 PM
To put it into a translation, the Casters not only get the +X to hit (improved Save DCs), but a new use for the attack action for every single +1.
That's much less true for spontaneous casters with limited spells known. In that case, extra spell slots only provide some extra longevity in much the same way that extra HP does for melee types. It's certainly not equal, but that's mostly because spells are too good.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-21, 02:40 PM
Bonus spells for restricted-list casters (like a warmage or beguiler) are balanceable. It's when you get into unrestricted list (cleric, druid, wizard) casters that this problem arises.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-21, 02:42 PM
There is a problem with casting low level spells at higher levels. It is just not efficient if you have a more powerful higher level spell. Sure you can throw out a enervation as a standard action, but is it cost effective to do so?

The quick and easy fix? Limit the number of bonus spells to 1 or 2.

This doesn't solve the issue, it weakens the Elephant. We suddenly go from African size to Indian size.


The slightly bigger fix (someone already mentioned this in one of the recent threads, but can't remember who) is make all casters follow the same rule: INT for maximum level of spells, WIS for bonus spells, CHA for spell DC. It is more in line with melees triad of STR/DEX/CON to be effective.

That just makes them MAD, it doesn't change the fact that casters are getting extra spells/day and noncasters are getting a + to attacks/damage. Weakening save DCs just encourages casting spells that do not offer a save, such as buffs.

It makes the rules slightly different and changes how you build your caster, but it does nothing to help the noncasters (and makes some classes even worse, such as the Duskblade or Bard).

Leewei
2009-09-21, 02:47 PM
The number of spells per day isn't as big of an issue in my mind as the number of options available. The action economy limits the use of spells to the point where many effective caster builds won't run out of spells before winning four encounters. Having twice as many options to use in any given fight, on the other hand, represents enormous power.

Person_Man
2009-09-21, 02:48 PM
Solutions to your "problem" include:

1) 4E
2) Ban Vancian casters. Everyone must use ToB, Binder, Psionics, Incarnum, Warlocks, etc.
3) Give weaker classes more magic items. If Player 1 wants to be a Batman Wizard and Player 2 wants to be a non-optimized Monk, just keep giving the Monk more stuff until he's playing in the same league.
4) Don't care about balance. As long as everyone is having fun, who cares if Player 1 is Gandalf and Player 2 is Pippin, as long as they both enjoy the game.

My suggestion is some combination of #3 and #4.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-21, 02:49 PM
The number of spells per day isn't as big of an issue in my mind as the number of options available. The action economy limits the use of spells to the point where many effective caster builds won't run out of spells before winning four encounters. Having twice as many options to use in any given fight, on the other hand, represents enormous power.

Which is the other problem with casters, but that's a separate issue.

Indon
2009-09-21, 02:51 PM
Have Strength grant bonus HP like Con does? Maybe at 50% the rate - every +2 bonus to Str grants 1 HP/HD, or something.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-21, 02:53 PM
Have Strength grant bonus HP like Con does? Maybe at 50% the rate - every +2 bonus to Str grants 1 HP/HD, or something.

That still doesn't solve the issue, but it does make for a nice boost. The main problem there is the Druid's Wildshape and anything named/based on Polymorph.

Great idea though.

Indon
2009-09-21, 03:09 PM
That still doesn't solve the issue, but it does make for a nice boost. The main problem there is the Druid's Wildshape and anything named/based on Polymorph.

Great idea though.

I'd say the big overall problem is in the existence of very powerful spells.

Given only blaster-type casting, you could give noncaster classes one or two minor stat-related benefits to their staying power and call it a day.

But the power of high-effectiveness spells is exponentially greater than that of low-effectiveness spells, such that a single potent spell, such as Polymorph, can be worth very many Ice Storms or whatever.

In my view of the problem, caster resources aren't that badly balanced in the context of using low-effectiveness blasting spells. Only when you get to specific spells, weighted more towards the higher spell levels but spread out to some degree across all the spell levels, do you end up where caster endurance really becomes a problem.

I think casters should be able to cast, say, Fireball every round of combat and then some, just like a fighter should be able to have HP to last through every round of combat and then some. But the optimal use of spells is much more potent, to the point of not needing nearly that many resources.

Godskook
2009-09-21, 03:15 PM
To put it into a translation, the Casters not only get the +X to hit (improved Save DCs), but a new use for the attack action for every single +1.

But that's inaccurate. Having more spell slots doesn't give a spellcaster new options, it gives him longevity in his old options. Anything a wizard can do with bonus spells, he can do without them, and this is one of the crushing points of the Mystic Theurge(sacrificing spell levels for more slots/day is not worth it, apparently). You're also generalizing too extensively by grouping L1 bonus spells with L9 bonus spells in different portions of your analysis, and they simply don't have the same level of utility.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-21, 03:18 PM
What if, instead of giving you bonus spells, it gave you aspell slot in which only particular kinds of spells (like, say, fireball but not alter self) could be prepared, the way cleric domains work? Further, make this spell slot be either an eternal slot (ie: I prepared fireball in my 3rd level eternal slot I got from having Int 18, so now I can cast it at-will), or maybe make it a per-encounter slot. With this route, you'd have to do something of an adjustment (like, say, +2 levels: a 3rd bonus slot lets you prepare a 1st spell in it, but lets you cast it at-will, or you could prepare a 2nd spell in the same slot but only be able to cast it 1/enc).

Godskook
2009-09-21, 03:19 PM
That still doesn't solve the issue, but it does make for a nice boost. The main problem there is the Druid's Wildshape and anything named/based on Polymorph.

Quite frankly, Wildshape should never have been placed on a full-caster. If I ever start DMing, one of my adjustments off the bat is simply gutting that feature from the druid class, and then either allowing the wild-shape ranger or adding another class to the nature-caster line up.

(I keep wildshape because it is a valuable and natural archetype of the setting of high fantasy)

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-21, 03:20 PM
What if, instead of giving you bonus spells, it gave you aspell slot in which only particular kinds of spells (like, say, fireball but not alter self) could be prepared, the way cleric domains work? Further, make this spell slot be either an eternal slot (ie: I prepared fireball in my 3rd level eternal slot I got from having Int 18, so now I can cast it at-will), or maybe make it a per-encounter slot. With this route, you'd have to do something of an adjustment (like, say, +2 levels: a 3rd bonus slot lets you prepare a 1st spell in it, but lets you cast it at-will, or you could prepare a 2nd spell in the same slot but only be able to cast it 1/enc).

Then you have to go through an ID every spell that can be used with this option and make sure no caster gets screwed by the change.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-21, 03:33 PM
Then you have to go through an ID every spell that can be used with this option and make sure no caster gets screwed by the change.

You have to go through and ID which ones are [Mind-Affecting]. I don't see how this's any different. You'd have to mess around with the table a bit too, probably doubling the required stat for a bonus slot would be most efficient.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-09-21, 03:58 PM
What if, instead of giving you bonus spells, it gave you aspell slot in which only particular kinds of spells (like, say, fireball but not alter self) could be prepared, the way cleric domains work? Further, make this spell slot be either an eternal slot (ie: I prepared fireball in my 3rd level eternal slot I got from having Int 18, so now I can cast it at-will), or maybe make it a per-encounter slot. With this route, you'd have to do something of an adjustment (like, say, +2 levels: a 3rd bonus slot lets you prepare a 1st spell in it, but lets you cast it at-will, or you could prepare a 2nd spell in the same slot but only be able to cast it 1/enc).

Perhaps instead of setting a list of what spells are allowed, simply make bonus slots only capable of holding spells from a wizard's specialist school (and force all wizards to specialize) or a cleric's domains. Cut base spells/day by half, and you really focus wizards and clerics around their "theme" (schools or domains) and give them more uses of themed spells, while reducing the sheer number of slots they have.

Spontaneous casters can probably keep floating bonus spells, though (A) you'd have to cut their base spells in half as well to keep parity and (B) I'd have to think on the ramifications of that a bit more.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-21, 04:14 PM
Perhaps instead of setting a list of what spells are allowed, simply make bonus slots only capable of holding spells from a wizard's specialist school (and force all wizards to specialize) or a cleric's domains. Cut base spells/day by half, and you really focus wizards and clerics around their "theme" (schools or domains) and give them more uses of themed spells, while reducing the sheer number of slots they have.

Spontaneous casters can probably keep floating bonus spells, though (A) you'd have to cut their base spells in half as well to keep parity and (B) I'd have to think on the ramifications of that a bit more.

That's still way too much flexibility (At Will Summon Monster X is a bad thing, and Transmutation has spells like Celerity and Polymorph).

Kelpstrand
2009-09-21, 04:54 PM
Okay, not taking time to read through the rest of the thread, so sorry if I repeat other peoples stuff:

1) Level 20 Wizards have a lot. Oh noes. And yet a level 1 Wizard has 1 or 2 extra spells that just barely give him enough to use one per encounter. A level 13 Wizard get s good chunk, but not as incredibly large a number.

2) You are valuing spells, this is wrong. Getting an additional 4 level 1 spells is not even meaningful at level 20. But you are counting it as four more spells, as if a Wizard could actually use them for something.

3) Even the base spell allotment is never going to run out, why do you care so much about the bonus spells?

4) You are making a great many assumptions about what the balance of the game was designed around, I would argue differently. The fact is that they placed limits on number of encounters and strength of enemies. Perhaps the sole purpose of doing so is to make sure that the Wizard never runs out of spells. And not just spells in general, but appropriately leveled spells. If your level 15 Wizard is casting grease or Glitterdust, he's a waste of XP.

5) Here's how you fix this problem of Wizards not running out of spells. It's not a problem. If Wizards did run out of spells, that would be a problem, because you'd have a useless character on your hands. Instead, be glad that Wizards never run out of spells, and them make their per round contribution equal to a Fighter. (IE make Fighters contribute more).

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-09-21, 05:55 PM
That's still way too much flexibility (At Will Summon Monster X is a bad thing, and Transmutation has spells like Celerity and Polymorph).

1) I wasn't talking about using the at-will/per-encounter suggestion, just the idea that bonus spells are restricted somehow in the kinds of spells that can be used; take the normal wizard, cut base spells in half, restrict bonus spells to specialty school, and that's it.

2) I'd assumed that whatever changes would be made here would be in addition to the usual removal or alteration of broken spells; if you're not taking out Celerity, Shapechange, et al. then my suggestion probably wouldn't work.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-09-21, 08:09 PM
Despite what you said in big red letters at the end of your post, this IS an issue of casters vs. lesser/non casters.

Heck, if wizards were the only class, you could let them use wish at will, if you adjusted the CR system. The thing is, without other-class problems, this isn't a problem.