4E - Styles of Play

[Hzurr]

I'm currently DMing a 4E game that's been going on for just over a year. I'm enjoying it, I think the players are enjoying it, and overall I feel that it's gone pretty well. We've gone through H1, H2 (heavily modified to include some custom stuff), and are currently about 3/4 of the way through H3.

However, I've noticed the party a different style of play, that I feel deviate from the intended "4E" style, and I'm curious to see if this problem is unique to them.

"A Daily Unused is a Wasted Daily" - This is a phrase our Warden has become fond of using, and the majority of the party seems to have taken it to heart. Basically, the idea is that there's no reason to save onto the dailies, and it's better to use them now rather than simply guess that you might need them for a bigger fight later and end up never using them.

While I agree in theory, this has lead to several issues:

1) The party tends to obliterate the first couple encounters of a day, because they have no hesitation using a daily if the encounter might possibly look difficult.

2) The party tends to suffer from some 3.5E-type narcolepsy. There are several situations where they'll go out, fight for roughly 20 minutes of game time, and then...sit around for roughly 24 hours healing up, because they've burned through their high level stuff, and don't want to risk going out (even if they have a decent number of healing surges left)

3) In situations where they aren't able to control how many fights they have in a day (either through carelessness, or because there is some kind of time constraint on them), later encounters tend to get very, very difficult. Boss encounters have started to make me a bit nervous, because if the party doesn't hit them first thing in the day (in which case they obliterate the boss), then the encounter ends up becoming exceptionally difficult, because the party doesn't have the resources the designers expected them to have.

Now, I don't want to give the impression that the game has become simply broken because of this. I'm pretty used to bumping up some encounters to make them more difficult, or toning down some that I think will be impossible. The party is also ok with characters dieing (which is good, because it's happened several times).

Anyway, is this a trend in 4E groups, or is mine a bit different? How many encounters does a typical party go through in a day? I think this problem might decrease as the party gets higher and higher in level, and have more dailies to expend, but I'm not really certain, since this is our first 4E campaign, and none of us have high-level experience.

[Indon]

My 4E group functions in exactly the opposite way.

Over the first few rounds, we nova all our Encounter abilities and maybe use one Daily each. Later in the combat, we frequently use an Item Daily power. We're pretty conservative in this regard.

I'm the group's Warden, and there's a good incentive for Wardens to use at least one Daily each combat - you can only have one form at a time up, but you get more than one form. So that's probably influencing his viewpoint there.

[valadil]

I've only played 4e in Living Forgotten Realms. Those are almost always 4 encounters a day. It works out pretty well that way. Module authors have stopped saving the toughest encounter for last, so figuring out when to start spending dailies is one of the more interesting parts of the game.

If I had your players, I'd throw more wandering monsters at their camps. Let them sleep, but let them know there's a benefit to saving their dailies.

[Xallace]

It was really mostly dependent on the player. The bard, ranger and fighter were prone to making the most of their at-wills, while the avenger would nova all of his encounter powers, and the warlord would use his dailies first and his at-wills once he ran out of everything else.

[Sinfire Titan]

I'm of the mindset that if I can't renew it, I should save it for an emergency situation. I go out of my way to find magic items with Encounter and At Will abilities, to the point that I eschew more powerful items for the ones I can use more often (and it's saved us a few times).

I reserve my dailies to a maximum of 1/encounter, at least pre-Paragon.

One of my friends never uses his Dailies or Encounters unless we tell him to. He's an exception because he doesn't quite know what to do.

[Kurald Galain]

"A Daily Unused is a Wasted Daily"
I found the opposite reaction, at least until level 4 or 5. Players would hang on to their dailies until they get to what appears to be The Boss Fight (and in LFR adventures, it's usually easy to tell) and then unload. This makes the supposedly climatic end boss a cakewalk.

This changes around level 6, when most characters will have three or four daily powers (two daily attacks, one daily utility, and an item daily).

Anyway, good advice is probably "don't nova unless you have to". Also, in most fights, when half of the party has used an action point, the other half probably shouldn't.


I go out of my way to find magic items with Encounter and At Will abilities, to the point that I eschew more powerful items for the ones I can use more often
In my experience, almost without exception, a magic item with an encounter or at-will ability is more powerful than an item with a daily power several levels higher. My character carries numerous items with a daily power, most of which see little use; whereas the items with encounter powers get used all the time (e.g. master wands, boots of the fencing master, solitaires).

[sombrastewart]

I'm of the mindset that if I can't renew it, I should save it for an emergency situation. I go out of my way to find magic items with Encounter and At Will abilities, to the point that I eschew more powerful items for the ones I can use more often (and it's saved us a few times).

I reserve my dailies to a maximum of 1/encounter, at least pre-Paragon.

I do exactly the same thing. I'll burn some Encounters without a second thought, but I'll sit on Dailys until the chips are down. And those are the same items I get; I prefer to have static bonuses or at-will abilities over anything else. It means I end up picking a lot of the same items across characters, but I don't particularly care.

[GoufCustom]

I follow a version of that philosophy. I do save my dailies in case I need them later, but if I have reason to believe this will be the last encounter of the day, I go extremely nova in that fight.

[Sinfire Titan]

I do exactly the same thing. I'll burn some Encounters without a second thought, but I'll sit on Dailys until the chips are down. And those are the same items I get; I prefer to have static bonuses or at-will abilities over anything else. It means I end up picking a lot of the same items across characters, but I don't particularly care.

Yeah, I'm an effing Mizar. The one time I burned Sleep at the start of the encounter was against a Dragon (I missed). I usually stick with Rangers, Paladins, and Wizards myself, so the items almost always tend to be the same ones.

The exception is stuff like Veteran's Armor (pre-errata making things suck). If I have that, I pop the first one and get it back ASAP.

[Gralamin]

I use dailies as a mechanism for turning fights around. Dailies are to be used early in encounters, and to large effect. One daily power an encounter, at max, unless an encounter is exceptionally difficult. This does mean that I won't use a daily power if an ally has already, unless it will have an obvious effect on a fight. I know 4e Characters aren't very weak, and can take a lot of damage, and rely on it.

[RiOrius]

I haven't really looked at the modules you're running, but something you might consider is foreshadowing the fact that there's a boss fight looming. If the players know that they're up for a challenge in a few encounters, I would imagine they would hold on to the dailies until then.

[LibraryOgre]

Anyway, is this a trend in 4E groups, or is mine a bit different? How many encounters does a typical party go through in a day? I think this problem might decrease as the party gets higher and higher in level, and have more dailies to expend, but I'm not really certain, since this is our first 4E campaign, and none of us have high-level experience.

I don't think you can argue our group isn't "different". ;-)

Part of it comes from the nature of the Pyramid of Shadows... everyone living in secluded enclaves, with no passage of time or limitations on resources (like air, food, or water) encourages us to take our time and act strategically... make sure we win every encounter, and we do that by going nova. If we trash someone, then rest, then trash someone, then rest, we're not having to worry about dwindling supplies or a time limit... just winning each fight. Since people don't pursue us out of their own enclaves, finding a place to rest is a reasonable response.

It may be an aspect of the environment. If you really want to break it up, trash us in our sleep. We're lousy about setting a watch schedule. I think the only serious watching going on is Bjorn watching the Deva. ;-)

[Drammel]

I think it depends on the DM sometimes. I'm in two games with two different groups at the moment, one I DM and one I play in. In the game I DM my players are very experienced and comfortable with tabletop gaming. They routinely embarrass any dragon I throw at them. They burn through dailies like they're going out of style. The only really tough encounters they've actually had is when they've burned through all of their dailies and oops! I throw a Big Bad Evil Guy at them. Part of it is my fault, they know I'm nice enough to actually play the intelligence of a monster. That is to say that I'm not metagaming the encounter to beat them, I'm trying to do what a bandit, or a dragon, or a gelatinous cube would do in the situation, as best as I can. They feel safe enough with my encounters to burn their daily powers.

The game I play in is another matter. Out of the six players I'm one of two that are experienced, and the other guy is more interested in in playing the part of a young, brash hero that runs in before thinking. Our DM however, has been running campaigns since the dawn of time, has a ferocious tactical mind, and delights in killing off players. Old School. Not to say he isn't a great guy, but he has a very hard time dumbing down his monsters just because he's that good with tactics. We're still trying to get our Rogue to remember what a flank is. After we'd lost two characters in as many encounters I knew I was going to have to play a straight healing Cleric just to make things fair. Long story short, everyone in that party is afraid to use daily powers because what our DM thinks is an easy encounter can sometimes end up as a fight for our lives. We need every single daily and when they miss things get ugly. In that party there's a growing resentment toward daily powers because they don't always do as advertised: saving the day.

Personally, I'm biased. I never liked the 'burn an ability, get it back at an unknown time in the future' mechanic and I like it less now that everyone is forced to use it. As much as I like some aspects of 4th edition there's a reason that 3.5 Warlocks and the Tome of Battle became so popular and it has to do with the fact that your abilities felt dependable. So I guess whether or not you like daily powers comes down to a question of if you find them dependable or not. That, at least, is in my opinion.

[Yakk]

Here is a solution to the DMs narcoleptic problem:
Plot Based Pacing (a 4e mod)

This mod replaces the idea of the adventuring day with an increased importance to milestones.

Inspired Powers: All Daily powers are now Inspired powers. These powers can refresh when you reach a milestone, and automatically refresh when you gain a level. Magic item daily powers are also inspired, and if unrefreshed cannot be used again.

Extended Rest: Start with the rules for a standard rest, but it takes 6 hours. If you have any action points, they drop to 1 -- you never gain action points by resting. (Optional rule: If players retreat to take a rest, they lose all action points). Next, make an endurance check with a bonus equal to your max healing surges against DC 10. If you pass, gain 1 healing surge back. For every 10 you beat the DC, gain an additional healing surge. Extended Rests do not recover Inspired powers.

Milestones: When you reach a milestone, your character gains the following:
+1 action point.
1/2 (rounded down) of your max healing surges.
For each expended Inspired power, roll 1d6. On a 4, 5 or 6, the power refreshes.

There are two kinds of milestones -- Dramatic and Rest Milestones. A Dramatic Milestone happens during an encounter, and the players are not allowed to rest. When a Dramatic Milestone happens, the player may spend a healing surge as a free action or make a saving throw, and may roll to recover each expended encounter power (456 the power refreshes).

During a Rest milestone, the player may spend healing surges both before and after the milestone restored healing surges.

Short Rest: Short rests occur whenever players have a breather. 5 minutes is a guideline -- if players are not under siege or chasing a fleeing opponent at a break-neck pace, they are presumed to have a short rest after each encounter, even if they don't say "I spend 5 minutes resting". Powers such as "healing word" should be presumed to be used, and refreshed again, during the short rest. Powers that do not burn other resources (such as unicorn's touch) can be used once during a given short rest.

Pacing: Players should be given about 4-5 milestones per level. They should happen at dramatically appropriate times (when the big boss smashes through the floor, or they teleport into a battle), or when the players achieve a goal. Pace them so they occur about every 2 encounters or so (or every 3 easy encounters).

Milestones are a reward for advancing the plot.

...

The result of the above is that taking a rest is a mediocre way to regain resources. You can have an adventure that takes place over a week long caravan trip (with 1/2 to 2 encounters per day), or a race against the clock where the world is going to end in 3 hours that takes up 10-20 encounters.

Advancing the plot is what gives you milestones. So players fight their way through the goblin caves without resting for 6 hours part way through.

At the same time, players can easily run short of healing surges, and decide that a few days rest is what they need to top up.

Characters who horde inspired powers are rewarded by having them around when they reach the boss. Players who spend inspired powers are rewarded by having more chances to refresh them as milestones go by.

Generally, you want to throw a milestone directly before a big tough battle.


The group I play in tends to push as hard as they can. I think we are on encounter 8-10 of the day currently (lost track!). This was after taking a few 3-4 encounter days, mainly precipitated by the rogue being casual with being beat on. After saying "sorry, we are going on anyhow" when the rogue was down to 0 healing surges, he has gotten more careful. :)

[Mercenary Pen]

An alternate adage you might want to drop into the thinking at your table is this:

"It is easier not to use a weapon you possess than to use a weapon you do not possess."


Also, as an encounter idea, maybe create a magical trap that saps their energy, preventing them from using either dailies or encounter powers whilst in range of the device... Obviously, you wouldn't do well to run anything more than an equivalent level combat encounter at best under those circumstances, but it might challenge your players to try things a little differently.

[Athan Allgood]

I wont say your group is strange, but it certainly is different then mine. We all tend to save up our good stuff until we hit a battle that's challenging enough to warrant them, or have otherwise reached a waypoint where we KNOW that we'll be resting soon either way.

If you're looking for suggestions about your situation, well, there's a couple ways to go :

1) DM for the players, not against them: Set up your boss fights early in the story progress, and use lesser battles afterward, making them less likely to be hurt by hitting the switch too quick.

2) Teach them a lesson: Have the big bad waylay them right after an encounter in which they've needlessly blown their dailies. Dont be a jerk, give them an out if it is required, but being made a mockery of may leave a bitter taste in the players mouths that, hopefully, will teach them the error of their ways.

3) Railroad them: They've been resting too often... hmmm, what a shame they're now on a strict time limit and only have 3 hours before 'x' happens... so much for those extended rests, guys. Better get running.

Personally, I'd have a good talk with the group about the issue before doing any of the above. Explain that the constant resting is killing the campaign momentum, and you're worried for the game.

Most people would understand, I think.

[Bagelz]

I follow a version of that philosophy. I do save my dailies in case I need them later, but if I have reason to believe this will be the last encounter of the day, I go extremely nova in that fight.

i guess it depends on your DM and how well you know their play style. if they try to give you 1-3 "trash" encounters and 1 "boss" encounter each session. and your sessions happen to line up with days. then yeah, hang on to em.

if your dm gives you 1 encounter every couple "days" in game, then burn 'em or lose 'em. I use my encounter powers first unless i find a really good use for a daily and only use at wills if i'm all out of everything else.

[TheEmerged]

Yeah, my players are still in "Wait For The Boss"/daily miser mode. They just hit 5th level though, which is supposedly when this starts changing.

[Orzel]

My parties tend to use resources based on role.

Defender and strikers- 1 Daily per encounter, encounter power spam, at-will spam
Leaders- encounter spam, at-will spam, daily saved for boss.
Controllers- whatever works best.