PDA

View Full Version : Simple grapple check question



The Vorpal Tribble
2009-09-21, 04:10 PM
Ok, simply put, do you make a new one each round, or is the original grapple check what you measure everything else by?

For example, the other guy grapples you successfully. You try to make an opposed check to do anything. Does he have to reroll, or is everything based on the original?

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-21, 04:20 PM
You make a grapple check every time they attempt to escape/whenever you try to take an action other than maintaining the grapple. IIRC.

Grapple checks are always an opposed roll.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-21, 04:20 PM
Both participants make a new check each time a grapple check is called for. Otherwise, you'd end up with situations where grapples would be completely impossible to escape.

The Vorpal Tribble
2009-09-21, 04:22 PM
Both participants make a new check each time a grapple check is called for. Otherwise, you'd end up with situations where grapples would be completely impossible to escape.
That's what I thought, but it doesn't specify in the rules at all.

ericgrau
2009-09-21, 04:23 PM
Most grapple checks (both the attacker and defender) are the result of an attack action. Some are move or standard actions, but the typical stuff like grabbing someone, pinning him, attempting to escape or dealing damage are attacks. So you can get multiple per round, grab someone as an attack of opportunity (if you have improved unarmed strike so your hands threaten AoO's), etc.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-21, 04:32 PM
That's what I thought, but it doesn't specify in the rules at all.

...It tells you to make grapple checks quite frequently, and spells out that grapple checks are opposed checks.

I'm not seeing the problem.

ericgrau
2009-09-21, 04:39 PM
...It tells you to make grapple checks quite frequently, and spells out that grapple checks are opposed checks.

I'm not seeing the problem.

Aha, thanks to you I see now. The problem is that he couldn't find the grapple rules. Try the link below, or search your player's handbook better. It's in the combat chapter, under special attacks.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple

Or the link in my sig includes a page summarizing grappling.

Person_Man
2009-09-21, 04:46 PM
Also, the rules compendium makes it clear that Grapple checks are attack actions. Thus you can make one Grapple check for each attack you get, significantly increasing your damage (and increasing the probability that your enemy can escape from the Grapple during his turn, or vice verses).

Keld Denar
2009-09-21, 04:55 PM
Now that thats resolved...I have a followup grapple questions!

So, a creature with multiple natural attacks...lets say...8 of them, attacks a foe. That creature wants to grab the foe. The creature makes a touch attack with the first attack, hitting, and winning the initial grapple checks.

Can the creature continue to hit with all of its subsequent natural attacks? Or make grapple checks with them instead? Is there the normal -4 penality for attacking with a light weapon in a grapple (since natural attacks count as light weapons...sometimes).

Would it be more optimal for the creature to try to grapple with one of its last attacks then? Eager totemists grapplemonsters desire informations!

Cieyrin
2009-09-21, 05:25 PM
Now that thats resolved...I have a followup grapple questions!

So, a creature with multiple natural attacks...lets say...8 of them, attacks a foe. That creature wants to grab the foe. The creature makes a touch attack with the first attack, hitting, and winning the initial grapple checks.

Can the creature continue to hit with all of its subsequent natural attacks? Or make grapple checks with them instead? Is there the normal -4 penality for attacking with a light weapon in a grapple (since natural attacks count as light weapons...sometimes).

Would it be more optimal for the creature to try to grapple with one of its last attacks then? Eager totemists grapplemonsters desire informations!

You can continue to make natural weapon attacks in a grapple, just w/ the -4, since it does specify natural weapons as a viable option for it, regardless of what they're considered.

Given the preponderance of tentacled grapple critters making grapples with their tentacles freely, I'd assume you could do any attack action with them, which would include grapples. Provided you're doing a full attack to get all your natural attacks, it's all good, I'd say.

What exactly do you mean last attacks? In the case of natural weapons, I suppose you mean secondary natural weapon attacks, which I guess I don't see a problem with using instead of your primary natural weapon attacks. Some natural weapons probably aren't appropriate for other attack options like grapples (how do you grapple someone with your gore attack? impale them, I suppose?) but by RAW, I don't think there's really that much of a difference, really.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Keld Denar
2009-09-21, 06:00 PM
My Skarn Totemist has 2 primary Spine attacks, 4 secondary Claw attacks (Girallon Arms bound to Totem), and 2 secondary tentacle attacks (Deepspawn feat, Lords of Madness). He has Improved Grapple and Rend, but not Rake or Improved Grab (yet...getting Scorpion's Grasp soon).

His attack routine would look like thus:
Spine1 +13
Spine2 +13
Tentacle1 +11
Tentacle2 +11
Claw1 +11
Claw2 +11
Claw3 +11
Claw4 +11

So...if he wanted to end his attack sequence grappling with a foe, he should probably attack with both spines, both tentacles, and 2-3 of his claws, then make grapple attacks with either Claw3 or Claw4 to attempt to start a grapple. If he succeeds with Claw3, his attack with Claw4 will be at +7 (+11-4 for grappling). If he misses with Claw3, he's still got another chance to grapple with Claw4.

Right? Or can start the grapple on the first attack and exchange my natural attacks for grapple checks to deal damage instead?

9mm
2009-09-21, 06:24 PM
You can exchange left over attacks for unarmed damage without a grapple check, to deal damage with the natural weapons you'll need a grapple check as per attacking with a light weapon, that said you are well on your way to one hell of a black blood cultist there.

holywhippet
2009-09-21, 06:49 PM
Also, the rules compendium makes it clear that Grapple checks are attack actions. Thus you can make one Grapple check for each attack you get, significantly increasing your damage (and increasing the probability that your enemy can escape from the Grapple during his turn, or vice verses).

About that. Attempting a grapple generally provokes an attack of opportunity. If the AoO does damage the grapple attempt fails. But you only get on AoO per round, so if the grappler has multiple attacks then only the first one has a chance of being stopped this way.

Is that right?

Keld Denar
2009-09-21, 06:52 PM
Black Blood Cultist?

I could get more attacks, but I'm out of chakra binds, unless there is a way to increase the number of chakra binds you can have. The only soul melds that grant natural attacks without requiring chakra binds are draconic, which require the Dragonblooded subtype and would cost my poor Skarn a feat he doesn't have, since there are no Dragonblooded Skarn alternative racials.

Eldariel
2009-09-21, 07:18 PM
Black Blood Cultist is a PrC in Champions of Ruin; has Savage Grapple which deals all your NA damage with a successful Grapple-check around level 8. Pretty crazy, but medium BAB and doesn't advance Meldshaping.

Glimbur
2009-09-21, 08:42 PM
I could get more attacks, but I'm out of chakra binds, unless there is a way to increase the number of chakra binds you can have.

You might be able to take Double Chakra at level 9 for your Totem. You have to choose a Chakra to which you can bind soulmelds. You can bind soulmelds to your Totem Chakra. I'd rate it about a three on a one to ten scale of sketchy rule interpretations; with a ten being healing via drowning and one being Weapon Focus gives you +1 to hit with the chosen weapon.

Cieyrin
2009-09-21, 09:12 PM
You might be able to take Double Chakra at level 9 for your Totem. You have to choose a Chakra to which you can bind soulmelds. You can bind soulmelds to your Totem Chakra. I'd rate it about a three on a one to ten scale of sketchy rule interpretations; with a ten being healing via drowning and one being Weapon Focus gives you +1 to hit with the chosen weapon.

Double Chakra only opens up a chakra for another bind, not get you another bind. While getting the Double Chakra on the Totem is totally legit in my book, especially when Totemist hit's 11th for binding a soulmeld to totem and another chakra at the same time, which is pretty awesome to have on two soulmelds.

As for more bindings, the only option i'm aware of is the epic feat or maybe going through a PRC that offers its own meldshaping progression at an accelerated rate (not that I'm aware of one, as the Spinemeld Warrior is the only one in the book that does and it's very slow about it. :smallannoyed:

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-21, 10:20 PM
The only technically legal method of gaining additional attacks in a grapple is iterations from BAB.

Natural weapons cannot use BAB iteration progression. Therefore, multiple natural attacks per round in a grapple are technically not allowed. That said, it's reasonable to allow natural attacks in a grapple, and speed/haste effects.

ericgrau
2009-09-21, 10:23 PM
Haste gives extra attacks of any kind, including those in a grapple. Things that give extra attacks can still be used because you can fight with a melee weapon in grapple, albeit at a -4 penalty. Except TWF. Even if it's not expressly stated that you can use all your natural attacks in a grapple, it's implied elsewhere. Like in text that says you can use a rake attack in addition to your other natural attacks in a grapple.


About that. Attempting a grapple generally provokes an attack of opportunity. If the AoO does damage the grapple attempt fails. But you only get on AoO per round, so if the grappler has multiple attacks then only the first one has a chance of being stopped this way.

Is that right?

Ooh, that's a good idea and yes it works for the reasons you gave. Unless the target has combat reflexes. Also note that improved grapple negates the AoO. That's the typical way around it. But let's say I don't have improved grapple and I see a small creature that just screams "grapple me". I'll keep that in mind.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-21, 11:25 PM
Haste gives extra attacks of any kind, including those in a grapple. Things that give extra attacks can still be used because you can fight with a melee weapon in grapple, albeit at a -4 penalty. Except TWF. Even if it's not expressly stated that you can use all your natural attacks in a grapple, it's implied elsewhere. Like in text that says you can use a rake attack in addition to your other natural attacks in a grapple.
Primary source. A tertiary ability in the MM doesn't override the text of the PHb on how to grapple. Especially when it's only implied.




Ooh, that's a good idea and yes it works for the reasons you gave. Unless the target has combat reflexes. Also note that improved grapple negates the AoO. That's the typical way around it. But let's say I don't have improved grapple and I see a small creature that just screams "grapple me". I'll keep that in mind.

Improved grapple does get around it... But close quarters fighting gets around that. This seems to get around the getting around. For maximum fun, start with the mobility feat, and provoke an AoO for movement. If you're gonna suck one out, might as well suck it out with a higher AC. Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike could be fun there too.

Keld Denar
2009-09-21, 11:28 PM
Double Chakra only opens up a chakra for another bind, not get you another bind. While getting the Double Chakra on the Totem is totally legit in my book, especially when Totemist hit's 11th for binding a soulmeld to totem and another chakra at the same time, which is pretty awesome to have on two soulmelds.


So...wait. My totemist is level 11. He has the 11th level ability to bind a meld to both his totem AND another chakra. He's got Girallon Arms bound to Totem and Arms. This gives 4 claws and a rend. This takes up one chakra bind, right? He's also got the feat Double Chakra (Totem) and has Totem Avatar bound to his Totem Chakra. Could he also bind Totem Avatar to say...his Arms (which are already bound due to totemist 11's ability)? Or maybe his Shoulder(which isn't bound)?

I guess its a little confusing.

And, we'll get back to grappling in a bit!

EDIT: Also, Rapid Strike and Improved Rapid Strike from the Draconomicon give you what are essentially iterative attacks with a pair of natural weapons. Could you then use them to make successive grapple checks? I'm thinking probably not because they aren't TRUE iteratives, but maybe someone else has a bit more insight...

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-22, 12:28 AM
Again, it's very reasonable to houserule multiple natural attacks in a grapple. After all, there's a reason Siegfried and Roy fear tigers now.

Eldariel
2009-09-22, 01:41 AM
Again, it's very reasonable to houserule multiple natural attacks in a grapple. After all, there's a reason Siegfried and Roy fear tigers now.

They do have Rake though, which gets around that limit.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-22, 02:45 AM
They do have Rake though, which gets around that limit.

Rake is a specific exception to the limit, yes. Rake attacks can, by specific text, go above the normal limit on attacks. It doesn't otherwise affect the non-rake attacks, however.

Person_Man
2009-09-22, 08:47 AM
About that. Attempting a grapple generally provokes an attack of opportunity. If the AoO does damage the grapple attempt fails. But you only get on AoO per round, so if the grappler has multiple attacks then only the first one has a chance of being stopped this way.

Is that right?

Correct.

However, if the target has Combat Reflexes, he can smack you each time you attempt to Grapple him.

Unless you have Improved Grapple or Improved Grab or are standing out of his threatened area, in which case he doesn't get any AoO.

Unless he has the Close Quarters Fighting feat, in which case he does.

Gods, the Grapple rules are annoying.

Keewatin
2009-09-22, 09:01 AM
So if something has improved grab can it:

Attack hit and deal damage
start a grapple
make an opposed grapple check
deal unarmed damage for establishing a hold
release as a free action

and then do the same sequence for each attach that can improved grab?

Person_Man
2009-09-22, 09:36 AM
So if something has improved grab can it:

Attack hit and deal damage
start a grapple
make an opposed grapple check
deal unarmed damage for establishing a hold
release as a free action

and then do the same sequence for each attach that can improved grab?

Wrong.

The actions you can take while Grappled are proscribed. They are:


Activate a Magic Item (usually a standard action)
Attack Your Opponent (limited weapons, attack action)
Cast a Spell (varies)
Damage Your Opponent (attack action)
Draw a Light Weapon (move action)
Escape from Grapple (attack action)
Move (attack action)
Retrieve a Spell Component (full round action)
Pin Your Opponent (attack action, opens new options)
Break Another’s Pin (attack action)
Use Opponent’s Weapon (attack action)

If you wanted to release your enemy, you must first establish a pin or take an attack action to do so. So if you have Improved Grab or Scorpion's Grasp, the sequence of events would be:


Attack enemy, and if you hit, deal damage (attack action)
Opposed Grapple Check (free action)
If you succeed, deal unarmed or natural weapon damage
Assuming you have additional attacks available, finish out your attack actions with those from the Grapple list: attack your opponent, Damage Your Opponent, escape from a grapple, pin your opponent, or use opponent's weapon.

Keewatin
2009-09-22, 10:17 AM
Wrong.

The actions you can take while Grappled are proscribed. They are:


Activate a Magic Item (usually a standard action)
Attack Your Opponent (limited weapons, attack action)
Cast a Spell (varies)
Damage Your Opponent (attack action)
Draw a Light Weapon (move action)
Escape from Grapple (attack action)
Move (attack action)
Retrieve a Spell Component (full round action)
Pin Your Opponent (attack action, opens new options)
Break Another’s Pin (attack action)
Use Opponent’s Weapon (attack action)

If you wanted to release your enemy, you must first establish a pin or take an attack action to do so. So if you have Improved Grab or Scorpion's Grasp, the sequence of events would be:


Attack enemy, and if you hit, deal damage (attack action)
Opposed Grapple Check (free action)
If you succeed, deal unarmed or natural weapon damage
Assuming you have additional attacks available, finish out your attack actions with those from the Grapple list: attack your opponent, Damage Your Opponent, escape from a grapple, pin your opponent, or use opponent's weapon.


Step 4 on page 156 Maintain a grapple:
states you must move into your opponents space and that if you do not you immediatly let go, and that you need to start again at step 1. So if you attack hit grapple establish a hold and then chose not to maintain you could then start the grapple series again with your next attack.

Person_Man
2009-09-22, 11:32 AM
From the SRD (www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm):


Step 4

Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.)

Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target.

If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1.

Emphasis mine.

It's clear to me from the context of the rules that you can't choose to skip step 4 or choose not to move into his square. You must move into your target's square unless your can't for some reason (such as if you were immobilized).

Also note that Free Actions (such as opposed Grapple checks and releasing a Grapple for whatever reason) can be limited by the DM. For example, you can use Sleight of Hand as a Free Action (if you accept a -20 penalty) but it doesn't mean that your DM will let you pickpocket unlimited items off of an enemy each round, and then take a full attack.

Has your DM ruled differently? If you were DM, would you allow a Grapple build to essentially get double damage on every attack by hitting, grappling, releasing, and then repeating?

Cieyrin
2009-09-22, 12:28 PM
So...wait. My totemist is level 11. He has the 11th level ability to bind a meld to both his totem AND another chakra. He's got Girallon Arms bound to Totem and Arms. This gives 4 claws and a rend. This takes up one chakra bind, right? He's also got the feat Double Chakra (Totem) and has Totem Avatar bound to his Totem Chakra. Could he also bind Totem Avatar to say...his Arms (which are already bound due to totemist 11's ability)? Or maybe his Shoulder(which isn't bound)?

My reading of the 11th level ability is that you can bind the soulmeld to the totem chakra and another chakra, not that they're considered a single bind. Reading Double Chakra also seems to imply that each bind is separate. So in the above example, binding the Girallon Arms to the Totem costs 1 and to the arms costs 1. Double Chakra(Totem) to allow binding the Totem Avatar to the Totem is another 1, which is your 3 binds you're allowed as an 11th level Totemist. Since you don't have Double Chakra(Arms), you couldn't bind 2 melds to the arms. When you hit 14th, assuming full progression, you could then do:

Chakra Binds:
Girallon Arms (Totem)
Girallon Arms (Arms)
Totem Avatar (Totem)
Totem Avatar (Shoulders)


Which is legal in my book. I also wouldn't bother with Totem Avatar(Arms), as you already have Improved Grapple.


EDIT: Also, Rapid Strike and Improved Rapid Strike from the Draconomicon give you what are essentially iterative attacks with a pair of natural weapons. Could you then use them to make successive grapple checks? I'm thinking probably not because they aren't TRUE iteratives, but maybe someone else has a bit more insight...

Well, I guess from my previous post, the whole Tentacle grapple thing was probably by virtue of an Improved Grab ability, which explains that bit. If you did Rapid Strike with your Tentacle Attack (after getting Scorpions's Grasp for the Improved Grab), then yeah, more grapples for ya to ruin somebody's day with.

Sophismata
2009-09-22, 10:16 PM
Natural weapons cannot use BAB iteration progression. Therefore, multiple natural attacks per round in a grapple are technically not allowed. That said, it's reasonable to allow natural attacks in a grapple, and speed/haste effects.

This is incorrect.



Right? Or can start the grapple on the first attack and exchange my natural attacks for grapple checks to deal damage instead?

No, you may not exchange natural attacks for attack actions. So, you must continue with your natural attack routine at -4.




Haste gives extra attacks of any kind, including those in a grapple. Things that give extra attacks can still be used because you can fight with a melee weapon in grapple, albeit at a -4 penalty. [...] Even if it's not expressly stated that you can use all your natural attacks in a grapple, it's implied elsewhere. Like in text that says you can use a rake attack in addition to your other natural attacks in a grapple.


I'd avoid citing rake as an example, it is the only source I can find that actually says you may only make one natural attack in a grapple. Since it is a tertiary ability in the MM, it can be ignored in preference of the standard combat and grappling rules.



So if something has improved grab can it:

Attack hit and deal damage
start a grapple
make an opposed grapple check
deal unarmed damage for establishing a hold

You do not deal unarmed damage for establishing a hold.



It's clear to me from the context of the rules that you can't choose to skip step 4 or choose not to move into his square. You must move into your target's square unless your can't for some reason (such as if you were immobilized).

Improved Grab moves the target into your square, and neither you nor the target provoke. However, Improved Grab does not allow you to apply damage twice on the initial grapple check.

ericgrau
2009-09-22, 11:01 PM
I was using rake as one example (probably among others) to show that you can make multiple natural attacks in a grapple, not the opposite. Though I don't think this example is necessary to know that you can.

gdiddy
2009-09-22, 11:18 PM
Simple grapple check question

2 pages later...

Sophismata
2009-09-22, 11:29 PM
I was using rake as one example (probably among others) to show that you can make multiple natural attacks in a grapple, not the opposite. Though I don't think this example is necessary to know that you can.

No, I understood that. It's just that rake specifically sells itself as an exception to a rule that I don't think exists - that you can only make one attack in a grapple with natural weapons.

You may only attack once per weapon, but like so many parts of D&D they've slipped on their wording when it comes to rake.

olentu
2009-09-23, 01:07 AM
No, I understood that. It's just that rake specifically sells itself as an exception to a rule that I don't think exists - that you can only make one attack in a grapple with natural weapons.

You may only attack once per weapon, but like so many parts of D&D they've slipped on their wording when it comes to rake.

It is more that one may only attack with only one natural weapon on ones turn while grappling, obviously barring exceptions.

Sophismata
2009-09-23, 11:35 AM
It is more that one may only attack with only one natural weapon on ones turn while grappling, [...]

Which is actually false. Grappling does not limit your attack actions, but does restrict weapon use to light, unarmed and natural.

You can still make a natural attack routine while grappling, you can still take standard action 'attack actions' while grappling, and you can make a standard attack routine (getting an 'attack action' for every 5 points of BAB) while grappling.

olentu
2009-09-23, 02:06 PM
Which is actually false. Grappling does not limit your attack actions, but does restrict weapon use to light, unarmed and natural.

You can still make a natural attack routine while grappling, you can still take standard action 'attack actions' while grappling, and you can make a standard attack routine (getting an 'attack action' for every 5 points of BAB) while grappling.

One is still limited to being able to attack with only one natural weapon on ones turn



A creature can attack with only one of its natural weapons on its turn while grappling, unless it has a special ability that allows it to do otherwise or its description provides an exception.

chiasaur11
2009-09-23, 02:08 PM
This is all confirming my suspicions.

There is no such thing as a simple grapple check question.

Person_Man
2009-09-23, 03:26 PM
This is all confirming my suspicions.

There is no such thing as a simple grapple check question.

You could just replace Grapple with something like the 4E Grab mechanic.

Standard Action (or Immediate Action with Improved Grab or Scorpion's Grasp) against any enemy within your natural reach. Make an attack roll, opposed by your enemy's Reflex Saving Throw or Escape Artist check (their choice). If you succeed, the enemy is Immobilized (incapable of moving unless they are teleported or pushed) until they escape the Grab. You may sustain the Grab at the begining of each turn as a Swift Action. Making a Grab action and sustaining it requires a free hand (or bite, or tentacle).

Sophismata
2009-09-24, 01:46 AM
One is still limited to being able to attack with only one natural weapon on ones turn

Ah, I do not have the rules compendium. Referencing the SRD and this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050322a) will tell you otherwise, and I'm inclined to go with the SRD on this one simply because it makes more sense and is (much) easier to manage.