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Zovc
2009-09-21, 05:30 PM
I will probably be playing Dungeons and Dragons with newer players this weekend. The last time I played D&D with them (see 2v2 PVP at Level 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125656)), two were full, prepared casters--the other played a rogue.

Now, I'm not really afraid of tiers and powergaming, but I am somewhat afraid of overwhelming the guys with choices. When playing as a wizard, every time the party rests, the Wizard/Cleric/Druid has to spend time deciding what he wants to put in each slot. I don't think it'll be that significant of a problem, but sidestepping it shouldn't be that hard.

The first two classes that came to mind as recommendable classes (and reasonably tiered classes) were the Beguiler and the Duskblade. Both classes have usefulness outside of their casting, and are capable of filling a "expected niche" (Rogue and Fighter, respectively). Both characters also cast spells spontaneously, and I think magic (perhaps gishdom in particular) appeals to newer players.

Is there a recommended spontaneous divine caster? What classes would you recommend to a new player that has options, but not an overwhelming amount of them?

With the group, I'd probably play a Factotum or Beguiler.

Eldariel
2009-09-21, 05:33 PM
Is there a recommended spontaneous divine caster? What classes would you recommend to a new player that has options, but not an overwhelming amount of them?

With the group, I'd probably play a Factotum or Beguiler.

Any ToB-class is solid, simply because you can't screw it up. Favored Soul, Sorcerer, Druid (again 'cause you can't screw it up), Warlock, etc. are also solid 'cause you can't really screw 'em up (though Druid requires preparing spells; he can just keep the same list at all times).

So yeah, I'd go with mostly spontaneous casters or martialists with a minimal amount of weak choices. Psionics is also a great option since due to RPG exposure, they're probably more familiar with the system than with Vancian casting.

Kurald Galain
2009-09-21, 05:34 PM
The first two classes that came to mind as recommendable classes (and reasonably tiered classes) were the Beguiler and the Duskblade.
Duskblade, yes. I would recommend against Beguiler because of what its spells do.

There's always Warmage and Warlock, though. Rogues and Rangers are also not that hard to play. Also, there exists a spontaneous divine, it's called the Favored Soul.

Zovc
2009-09-21, 07:16 PM
Okay, duskblade is green.

I'll also point the players to Psion and Favored Soul, I doubt they'll know how to do anything crazy with either class--especially without having looked over other splatbooks.

What about the Sorceror? Again, I'm not really afraid of what these players can do (and I'm not DMing), I just don't want them to spoil it for any of the other players (intentionally or not).

Are there any cool feats/spells I could suggest a Favored Soul take if he wants to feel like a Druid (instead of a Cleric, which the class really puts emphasis on)? any Prestige Classes? If the player wants to be a "healer," I'll suggest the Deity's Favor alternate class feature (replacing Weapon Focus) in the Player's Handbook 2.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-21, 07:18 PM
Dont do the Psion. I still cant figure out how to play a psion. Not the best class for beginners.

Faulty
2009-09-21, 07:21 PM
I highly suggest one of the ToB classes. Warblade is easiest. You can't go wrong with stance/maneuver choices, so a character can just pick what they think is cool and be totally functional. Melee is simpler to get a hang of than caster IMO. The fact that you don't need to do much prep, you just have most of your maneuvers readied, adds a lot of ease to using it.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-21, 07:25 PM
Beginner players tend to like flash-bang-boom kinds of spells. You could throw them a warmage (despite it being a really crap class), or (more recommended) a warlock or dragonfire adept. The latter two especially are very simple ("choose an invocation, you now can cast it whenever you feel like") and very straightforward for new players.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-21, 07:28 PM
Dont do the Psion. I still cant figure out how to play a psion. Not the best class for beginners.

Seriously? I thought it was straight forward.

I suggest not Incarnum: while awesome; takes alot of quadruple readings to make sense of it.

Faulty
2009-09-21, 07:35 PM
Incarnum is a head ache.

Nohwl
2009-09-21, 07:39 PM
cleric.

you get to repick your spells every day, you have access to all of them, so you can't pick the wrong spells like you can with a sorcerer. you have decent bab, and can wear heavy armor, so you can try melee combat if you want.

Zovc
2009-09-21, 07:42 PM
Again, Duskblade seems solid.

Psion, Favored Soul, Sorceror, and Warlock are iffy.

I am considering the Warblade. I've glanced through ToB quite a few times, but I just don't feel like I "get" it. I'll look through it again sometime this week.

Haven
2009-09-21, 07:47 PM
Is there anything specifically you feel like you're not getting?

DragoonWraith
2009-09-21, 07:50 PM
I read through MoI once, skimmed Sinfire's Incarnum and Totemist handbooks, and read a few posts about Incarnum, and I understand the idea, I think. I couldn't build an Incarnum character because I'm not familiar with the soulmelds available (which is where the real complexity comes from, since there are a lot and they all do different things in different chakra). The actual mechanics of the system aren't that hard to grasp, I think. They're just like items that you can invest special power points in.

Still, because there are a lot of soulmelds and you really need to know what they all do in every slot and every bind, Incarnum is definitely a terrible choice for new players.


Also, while I think Psionics is the most intuitive system out there (primarily because it reflects popular video games), I've found that unless you are very familiar with the stats of the monsters you are fighting, figuring out how many power points to augment your powers with is difficult. It would be very easy to go nova in the first few encounters, and be without power points for the rest of the day - even when you're trying to be conservative but don't know what you're doing.


Wizard, and any other prepared spellcaster, is potentially bad because they need to plan their spells per day ahead of time. That's very difficult for new players. Plus, if any of them manages to do it "right" (optimized), no one else in your party will keep up (bad).

Sorcerer is bad for two reasons: one, it uses the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, which is notable for two things: generally high-power, and being massively long. New players are not going to want to read through the whole list, even just the Core list. The second problem with the Sorcerer is that you are stuck with your spells for the rest of your career. That's bad. Swapping out 1 spell for every 4 levels of Sorcerer is not enough to undo serious mistakes. New players are not going to want to be haunted by mistakes made on Day 3 three months into the campaign, and with a Sorcerer they could very well be. Alternatively, a well-built Sorcerer could very well over-shadow a lot of other classes.... Favored Soul has the same "you might accidentally gimp yourself long-term" issue, but not the power issue.


The Warlock and Dragonfire Adept are similar to the Sorcerer, but you avoid almost all of the problems - the list they choose from is shorter and less high-power, they can't run out of resources so they'll always have something to do, plus they can choose to replace Invocations every level they advance their invoking - even prestige classes. This is key, because the Sorcerer cannot do that, and it will hurt a new player a lot. Any invocations that they decide aren't that useful, they can swap out pretty easily.


The martial adepts are also similar - you have to choose manuevers, but the overall list is smaller and you can swap out maneuvers more readily than a Sorcerer, plus (and this is the key bit), you can't screw it up. They're all good. So those are heavily recommended. If someone wants to be a Warrior, suggest a Warblade - not a Fighter. Lots of new players choose Fighters because they're "simple", but the reality is that doing anything but sucking with a Fighter is very difficult. Even in a relatively unoptimized game, Fighters can very easily feel worthless if you've got one of the "easy" casters in there - which you should, because the easy casters are A. easy, and B. fun.


Then you have the specialized casters, which are pretty much perfect: fixed spell list, spontaneous casting - boom, just pick the spell appropriate for the current moment, sweet! If you use the Warmage, though, improve it somehow - find better blast spells, or allow higher-level blast spells to appear earlier on the Warmage's list than they do for Sorcerers/Wizards, give it at least 3/4 BAB and good Fort and Will saves (or maybe Ref and Will, to be different), and fix Warmage Edge to be worth something (bonus to overcoming SR instead of extra damage is one option), and that could be great for your party.


Another very cool option is the Binder. They're "prepared", but they have a pretty short list, so they won't have to agonize over their choices too much. Being prepared means they don't have to worry about long-term choices, either.


The Duskblade's one I'm not very familiar with, so I can't comment on that, I'm afraid.

HCL
2009-09-21, 07:51 PM
I recommend against sorcerer unless you will pick his spell list AND cater to his strengths, or let him repick his spells every level. People try a spell, then realize it blows.

Shpadoinkle
2009-09-21, 07:58 PM
I'd have to sugest either warlock or warblade. Personally, I started with a thief (2e, but I knew the books inside out before I ever actually played anyway), although I wanted to start with a fighter (again, 2e, before fighters became useless), but the party already had a fighter and a fighter/cleric.

Warlocks can use thier abilities all day long and there aren't any restrictions. "You get these abilities and you can use them whenever you want." Simple. No preparation, no memorizing spells, just pick what you want and you can throw it out whenever.

Warblade is slightly more involved and complicated, but still fairly simple (unless you're starting much above first level).

Bard isn't a bad choice either, but probably boring since it's primarily a support class.

Barbarian is another solid choice. If you're starting at level 3 or higher, or if the character in question is a human of strongheart halfling, you can take Extended Rage and Extra Rage, so the player doesn't have to worry about when the best time to rage is. Yeah, they're probably pretty bad feat choices, but it'll let the player get the hang of how the game works.

Also, rogue isn't bad. It's balanced and the abilities aren't terribly complicated, though he'll probably need advice on what skills will be useful.

ALSO also, cleric. Spontaneous healing means he can try memorizing whatever spells he wants, and if it turns out to not be useful that day, he can still burn it for healing.

Zovc
2009-09-21, 08:02 PM
A lot of "not love" for the Sorceror, does this extend to the Favored Soul?

I doubt there would be issues with swapping spells every level (or even after the first string of encounters). Sure, a line should be drawn somewhere, but I don't mind cutting new players slack.

As far as the Psion is concerned, I'm not sure if anyone will be interested in it... but we should be starting at the first level, so the player should learn how not to go nova. If the players don't like the classes they're playing by the end of the night, we can always put together new characters for the next session (and I'll try to come back here with commentary).

I'll look the binder over later, probably when I look at the Warblade.

No, Haven, I don't feel like I'm missing "anything," but I'm looking for more ideas. I do not like, however, that none of the classes I've pulled up use wisdom--while I know this is a silly beef, it's present.

Charlie Kemek
2009-09-21, 08:04 PM
definately warlock or dragonfire adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2) (basically a warlock with some different and less invocations, but gets to breath fire on things at will). warblade is a little too complex, they might forget that they have stance X active, etc. while they just say "I hit it." the classes above are also a little more versatile.

Haven
2009-09-21, 08:11 PM
No, Haven, I don't feel like I'm missing "anything," but I'm looking for more ideas. I do not like, however, that none of the classes I've pulled up use wisdom--while I know this is a silly beef, it's present.

Well, Wisdom is pretty important to the Swordsage, actually.

Faulty
2009-09-21, 08:16 PM
One thing to keep in mind when dealing with ToB is that you can refluff stuff. Also, despite having fancy names, a lot of maneuvers are just combat techniques without any supernatural shenanigans. You only get supernatural with Devoted Spirit, Shadow Hand and Desert Wind, none of which are availible to Warblades.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-21, 08:18 PM
Well, Wisdom is pretty important to the Swordsage, actually.

No more tha a Monk. You could survive without Wisdom. You just wouldn't be as good.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-09-21, 08:20 PM
I've had alot of success with dragon shamans and newer players.. no idea why not a ton of class features. they get a breath weapon which alot of new players find cool.

holywhippet
2009-09-21, 08:21 PM
No mention of the spirit shaman? It's another spontaneous caster but they draw from the druid spell list.


A lot of "not love" for the Sorceror, does this extend to the Favored Soul?

It's kind of different with divine casters - they get healing spells (ignoring the bard which has no spontenous equivalent AFAIK). Being a spontaneous caster means they get more spells per level. Depending on your type of campaign it could be more useful to have someone one who can crank out a half dozen cure light wounds at low levels than it is to have someone who can cast fewer spells of any variety. Clerics can spontaneously change (well good and neutral clerics) their spells to cure X wounds spells, but they get less spells per day.

Draz74
2009-09-21, 08:26 PM
Another vote for Warlock and Dragonfire Adept.

As far as ToB classes go, Swordsage seems slightly more straightforward to me than Warblade.

Simple ol' Rogue with Penetrating Strike is another good melee option.

Cieyrin
2009-09-21, 08:37 PM
cleric.

you get to repick your spells every day, you have access to all of them, so you can't pick the wrong spells like you can with a sorcerer. you have decent bab, and can wear heavy armor, so you can try melee combat if you want.

That's the thing with prepared casters, is the overwhelming amount of choices for spells. The reason for starting players to do spontaneous casters is the limited spells known, thus they only have to deal with a few spells during normal play. Limited digging through books and whatnot during play so, they just have to worry about the spells they know. They can eventually replace spells, so a bad choice can be replaced. It's not important to make powerhouses at this point, as long as he has fun so that the next character is that much bettter, when he can do a cleric even better, when they know some good spells and can deal with that crazy variety and versatility.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-21, 09:30 PM
A lot of "not love" for the Sorceror, does this extend to the Favored Soul?
Yes. Depending on desired power level, though, maybe more so or less so - the Favored Soul is considerably weaker. Whether this is a good or bad thing depends on the party.


I doubt there would be issues with swapping spells every level (or even after the first string of encounters). Sure, a line should be drawn somewhere, but I don't mind cutting new players slack.
This will help Sorcerers a lot and make them quite viable for new players. Same for Favored Soul.


As far as the Psion is concerned, I'm not sure if anyone will be interested in it... but we should be starting at the first level, so the player should learn how not to go nova. If the players don't like the classes they're playing by the end of the night, we can always put together new characters for the next session (and I'll try to come back here with commentary).
My only experience with one was starting at 7th level, so I had a lot more opportunity to go Nova. 1st level Psions can't actually Nova since they can only spend 1 PP per power anyway. That does make things easier.

However... 3rd level is probably a better starting point, in general. 1st and 2nd level characters are a little squishy...


Also, I'm going to second suggestions of Barbarian and Rogue. Both are quite solid, both are quite simple. For the Rogue, don't toss too much SA-immune stuff at him (or use the Pathfinder Sneak Attack rules [but not the flanking or blur rules]). Let him full-attack with SA as often as is reasonable. For the Barbarian, strongly suggest Extend/Extra Rage so he doesn't have to worry about when to Rage as much, and make sure he gets Anklets of Translocation at the appropriate level. Also, give him the Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian variant from Complete Champion - Pounce instead of Fast Movement.

Nohwl
2009-09-21, 09:41 PM
That's the thing with prepared casters, is the overwhelming amount of choices for spells. The reason for starting players to do spontaneous casters is the limited spells known, thus they only have to deal with a few spells during normal play. Limited digging through books and whatnot during play so, they just have to worry about the spells they know. They can eventually replace spells, so a bad choice can be replaced. It's not important to make powerhouses at this point, as long as he has fun so that the next character is that much bettter, when he can do a cleric even better, when they know some good spells and can deal with that crazy variety and versatility.

i started as a cleric. it really isn't hard to learn. limit them to core and start at a low level if you think spells will be a big problem. you just keep the same basic list of spells prepared and check them off as you go. it also has the advantage of being hard to screw up.

a bad choice as a cleric can be replaced the next day. no waiting until you get more levels involved.

Faulty
2009-09-21, 10:02 PM
Another vote for Warlock and Dragonfire Adept.

As far as ToB classes go, Swordsage seems slightly more straightforward to me than Warblade.

Warblade is hardier and has fewer maneuvers to choose and ready from fewer disciplines.

taltamir
2009-09-21, 11:13 PM
That's the thing with prepared casters, is the overwhelming amount of choices for spells. The reason for starting players to do spontaneous casters is the limited spells known, thus they only have to deal with a few spells during normal play. Limited digging through books and whatnot during play so, they just have to worry about the spells they know. They can eventually replace spells, so a bad choice can be replaced. It's not important to make powerhouses at this point, as long as he has fun so that the next character is that much bettter, when he can do a cleric even better, when they know some good spells and can deal with that crazy variety and versatility.

eh, at lower levels he is only casting heal anyways.
Plus there are THAT many spells to choose from at level 1. Nor do you get overwhelming amount at each new level.

Thrawn183
2009-09-21, 11:51 PM
Wizard. Fill every slot with magic missile or a metamagick'ed version of it. If the player is interested in branching out from there, that's entirely their choice.

Who ever said wizards have to be complex?

taltamir
2009-09-21, 11:54 PM
Wizard. Fill every slot with magic missile or a metamagick'ed version of it. If the player is interested in branching out from there, that's entirely their choice.

Who ever said wizards have to be complex?

wizards? not only do they get a ton of choices, they are unable to do magic effectively at really low levels (level 1 wizard with magic missile is a joke... get grease!) they take a lot of effort to play well because every 2 levels gained means completely changing the way you utilize them. At some levels they are the best blasters, in some the best debuffers, at some the best terrain controllers, etc etc.

NotMe
2009-09-22, 05:58 AM
It sounds like I'm in a minority of one, but I quite like offering new players Incarnum classes (particularly totemist as they have a clearer focus than incarnate).

The biggest problem that I have seen with new players (starting at low levels) is that they make irrevocable choices for their characters that they badly regret a few levels down the line. By this time they tend to be integrated into the campaign and thus that much more difficult to make big changes to or replace.

Incarnum classes tend to be good introducers of the key character management concepts of playing D&D (resource management, choosing abilities to combine with an end in mind) and have the advantage that you can entirely rebuild all soulmelds overnight and can re-allocate essentia round by round. If you shape a couple of soulmelds that suck then don't invest any essentia in them, and tomorrow try something else. I would suggest that someone with more experience help them do their initial soulmelds.

However, another vote for Tome of battle for new players, particularly Warblade and Crusader. Your abilities tend to be easy to understand and use and it's difficult to go horribly wrong.

All IMHO (and yes, I also found incarnum something to get my head round the first time I picked it up).

DragoonWraith
2009-09-22, 06:08 AM
If the DM properly understands not only the mechanics of Incarnum (not nearly as hard as some make it sound), and knows all of the appropriate soulmelds and which ones are good (harder, but someone with decent experience playing Incarnum characters probably does), and most importantly can explain this clearly and concisely to players, yes, I agree. But those conditions may be hard to reach for many DMs, especially with a splat-book system that does not see nearly as much use as it deserves.

riddles
2009-09-22, 06:30 AM
i start my newer players with psychic warrior now. it gives them a little of everything they want (hittyness, magicyness) right out of the box. i love the class.

Zovc
2009-09-22, 07:33 AM
i start my newer players with psychic warrior now. it gives them a little of everything they want (hittyness, magicyness) right out of the box. i love the class.

Hmm... doesn't the PsiWar like a worse, Psionic version of the Duskblade?

I didn't like where Incarnum the first time I looked at it, and never gave it a second chance. I may do so, but I won't be recommending it to these guys.

Renchard
2009-09-22, 08:54 AM
Hmm... doesn't the PsiWar like a worse, Psionic version of the Duskblade?


Yes, but psionics is usually easier to explain to people. You have Y points of magic power, spend X to do this power. If you spend Z extra, it does extra damage. You get your points back when you use your cabin at the save point rest for the night.

Also, another vote for spirit shaman. Give them a spell prepared list right off the bat. If they don't like a spell, show them some other spells from the book. Druid spell list gives you the ability to go blast-y, or buff-y, or summon-y, or heal-y, or whatever the player might want to do. Decent HPs and skill points to boot. Also, don't overlook the hidden benefit of having a Wis-based class as a beginner...in almost game I've played, the two most commonly rolled skill checks are Spot and Listen. High results on skill checks will make new players happy.

Eldariel
2009-09-22, 09:08 AM
Hmm... doesn't the PsiWar like a worse, Psionic version of the Duskblade?

Worse? No, not really. Different is the correct word; Psi War focuses on buffing himself while Duskblade focuses on casting spells for damage/effect through his weapon.

Your average Psi War can far outbuff the Duskblade while also getting Fighterish feats, whereas Duskblade can pump extra damage to his attacks but overall lacks performance enhancing drugs spells. And yeah, the Psionic system should sit well with new players.

Dixieboy
2009-09-22, 09:11 AM
That's the thing with prepared casters, is the overwhelming amount of choices for spells. The reason for starting players to do spontaneous casters is the limited spells known, thus they only have to deal with a few spells during normal play. Limited digging through books and whatnot during play so, they just have to worry about the spells they know. They can eventually replace spells, so a bad choice can be replaced. It's not important to make powerhouses at this point, as long as he has fun so that the next character is that much bettter, when he can do a cleric even better, when they know some good spells and can deal with that crazy variety and versatility.

Perhaps the choice making every day seems bad.
But when compared to the sorcerer, where a single bad choice can make your characters usefullness drop significantly, it doesn't seem to be that much of a problem.

Myou
2009-09-22, 09:17 AM
Sorcerer and Favoured Soul are great choices. Some of the worst choices are the core melee classes, because you have to optimise hard just to be effective.

Edit;


Perhaps the choice making every day seems bad.
But when compared to the sorcerer, where a single bad choice can make your characters usefullness drop significantly, it doesn't seem to be that much of a problem.

So you, a DM, just say 'Hold on, that spell's pretty weak.'.

It's far easier than playing a wizard.

Kol Korran
2009-09-22, 10:41 AM
i haven't read the entire thread, not much time, but i think you are making too much of this.
wizards, clerics and druids are not that hard to play if you do the following:
- start them at early levels. the wizard is actually the easiest here, since s/he have a limitied list of spells (spellbook). the divine casters might have it a bit harder, but not by much. a level or at the outmost two levles of spells can be handled fairly nicely. so they might make a few mistakes, that's how you learn.
- limit the spell lists. this is especially true of divine classes. i'd suggest core and maybe one or two complete books. if, as they play along, you feel they become more competent and are able to add more material, make a new spell available to them (new spell scroll or a new "revelation" from their god or from nature)
- guide them, at least at first at what spells to pick. talk to them about their information for what they're about to face, and ask them what spesll they think might be appropriate. not all spells will of course, but again- that's how you learn.
- after ecnounters you guys may discuss (i'd suggest to do in in character, more fun), on what spells at their disposal would have been more effective. this is especially true for the wizard and his scroll making feat, but not only.
- the encounters may benefit from one spell more, from one spell less. let the party experiement, but never hinge it on the "right spell" (as some DMs unfortunatly do)

that's my idea. they will remain ignorant to the limiations of spell preparing as long as they haven't played the classes. that is realy the only way to learn, so if they want to, i'd say better sooner...

my two cp
Kol.

Blackfang108
2009-09-22, 10:45 AM
I'm going to have to say Duskblade (or Barbarian, but we all know the problems with that class. Doesn't mean it isn't still FUN. My first character was a Neraph Barbarian. Good times.)

Zovc
2009-09-22, 11:48 AM
Worse? No, not really. Different is the correct word; Psi War focuses on buffing himself while Duskblade focuses on casting spells for damage/effect through his weapon.

Your average Psi War can far outbuff the Duskblade while also getting Fighterish feats, whereas Duskblade can pump extra damage to his attacks but overall lacks performance enhancing drugs spells. And yeah, the Psionic system should sit well with new players.

I suppose the Psychic Warrior isn't necessarily weaker than the Duskblade, but it does seem like a harder class to play ("I need to use this power on myself, then maneuver over here, then attack." vs "Blow stuff up").


So you, a DM, just say 'Hold on, that spell's pretty weak.'.

It's far easier than playing a wizard.

This is what I'm thinking of, in reference to the "choosing one bad spell" argument, but I will also encourage the players to try the bad spell and once they realize its bad, have them swap it out at a resting point.

This can be simulated with the Wizard, yes, but I don't have to advise the player every time he rests until he gets a hang of the game.

There's no reason the player couldn't play a Wizard in his next game.

Under the impression that I will hold the players' hands and advise them on what to do (in between encounters), would you suggest Wizard or Sorceror? (Cleric or Favored Soul)

I'm also liking what I've seen on the Dragonfire Adept, I'll take a better look at it tonight, along with the Spirit Shaman.

Fishy
2009-09-22, 12:09 PM
Spirit Shaman, a thousand times.

Unlike a wizard/druid/cleric, you don't have to agonize over "how many of spell X am I going to need today, and how many of spell Y". You pick your three favorite spells, and you go.

Unlike a Sorcerer/Favored Soul, if you later discover that one of those spells sucks, you can change it the very next day.

Plus, the class features are nifty.

Person_Man
2009-09-22, 12:12 PM
I would add that new players tend to struggle with math. Specifically, the long list of bonuses and penalties that come with flanking, charge, higher ground, cover, iterative attacks, etc. So I tend to give them classes with easy to use abilities. Warlock, Dragonfire Adept, Warmage, Dread Necromancer, and Sorcerer or Spirit Shaman with the spells already picked out by the DM after talking to the player about the sort of things they like to do. Nothing that needs to make more then 1 attack roll per turn. And nothing with abilities or spells that you can't organize into easy to understand index cards.

Also, as much as I distaste it's lack of depth, 4E is much easier to learn and play (once character creation is done).

Tavar
2009-09-22, 02:28 PM
Personally, I would suggest Crusader from the Tome of Battle. Why? Easiest and best recovery Mechanic(just put the manuevers on note cards and deal them out at the appropriate times), Limited healing, tank abilities, small list to choose from, and supports Sword and Board. Plus they lack the Warblade damage focused maneuvers, which can draw people ire for being overpowered.

Warlock is also good, primarily for it's simplicity. Same probably goes for Dragonfire adept(haven't used it myself, buy from what I've seen/heard, it's a slightly different warlock).

hamishspence
2009-09-22, 04:55 PM
it works in a similar way- its main power, the breath weapon, is an area though, not a ranged touch.

Akal Saris
2009-09-22, 06:45 PM
I'd recommend Warlock as the easiest "fun" class to play, with Dragonfire Adept being slightly more complicated with the breath weapon.

Dragon Shaman and Duskblade from PHB II are both easy to learn as well.

And whoever suggested Binder must be nuts! That class has so many options that even my veteran PCs balk a little when they make one!

Tyndmyr
2009-09-22, 07:00 PM
Sorc. Noob sorcs are almost invariably blaster sorcs, and tend not to be terribly optimized, but they seem to enjoy it, and in general, they're easier to build and play. Wizards have a fair degree of bookkeeping.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-22, 07:01 PM
Sorc. Noob sorcs are almost invariably blaster sorcs, and tend not to be terribly optimized, but they seem to enjoy it, and in general, they're easier to build and play. Wizards have a fair degree of bookkeeping.
Then be a Warlock, it's even simpler and probably better as generic (newbie unoptimized) blaster anyway.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-22, 07:21 PM
Cause they're going to need to learn the basic casting system anyhow, and this way'll ease them into it.

taltamir
2009-09-22, 07:44 PM
sorcs indeed... and you can give them the option to completely rewrite their sorcerer at level 10. (only once... just keep the race and class, redo individual feat and spell and skill selections).

Zovc
2009-09-22, 08:01 PM
Characters I'm going to bring with me...

"Gishes"
Duskblade
Psychic Warrior

"Casters"
Sorcerer
Favored Soul
Psion

I'll also offer to help them throw together a Warblade, Crusader, Warlock, Barbarian, or Rogue. How does that sound?

For the five characters I'm going to bring, I'll use the 32 point buy system. What races should I choose for each class? Any recommended feats that'll help make a player feel cool without necessarily powergaming?

I'm assuming all characters will be level 1. I'll probably also make level 3 versions for fun (and possibly use).

Faulty
2009-09-22, 08:05 PM
Human is always a good, basic thing to choose. To be exotic, you can choose one of the psionic races for the Psion and Psychic Warrior, like an Elan or Maened

PinkysBrain
2009-09-22, 08:06 PM
Just for the off chance you're not aware ... you can print out all the ToB Manoeuvre cards (it's a free download from Wizards). You can in theory also make as readily in hand cards for other magic using classes, but few people do.

A card is easier than referring to the book.

Zovc
2009-09-22, 10:54 PM
The Elan Psion is looking like this so far:
Str: 10
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Int: 18 (2[race] + 2[stat] + 2[class] Power Points; total 6/day)
Wis: 12
Cha: (10-2) 8

4 Autohypnosis, 4 Concentration; leaves us with
16 skill points, 1 Feat + 1 Bonus Feat
Discipline = Metacreativity or Psychokinesis or Psychometabolism (thoughts)

The Human(?) Favored Soul is looking like this:
Str: 12
Dex: 12
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 18

4 Concentration, 4 Spellcraft(?), 4 Diplomacy (extra human skill points)
2 Feats

0th level spells: Guidance, Resistance, Detect Magic, and Light(?)
1st level spells: Bless(?), Cure Light Wounds, ???

Would work on the characters more, but I need to be off to bed so that I'm at work on time.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-22, 11:07 PM
Just for the off chance you're not aware ... you can print out all the ToB Manoeuvre cards (it's a free download from Wizards). You can in theory also make as readily in hand cards for other magic using classes, but few people do.

A card is easier than referring to the book.

I actually do this...I have a giant stack of 3 by 5 cards with spell info on them. It's really handy for remembering what that one spell that I almost never prepare does.

Cieyrin
2009-09-22, 11:10 PM
Hmm, maybe not min-maxed so hard. 18s are valuable and all but not at the cost of your other stats. The Favored Soul in particular could use some more physical stats and maybe Wisdom, as all good saves only goes so far and Favored Souls tend to melee at least a little, so they could probably use some more Str and Con.


I actually do this...I have a giant stack of 3 by 5 cards with spell info on them. It's really handy for remembering what that one spell that I almost never prepare does.

I generally use note cards just for buff effects so taht everybody knows what's going on and what bonuses are up at the time.

Zovc
2009-09-23, 12:50 PM
Hmm, maybe not min-maxed so hard. 18s are valuable and all but not at the cost of your other stats. The Favored Soul in particular could use some more physical stats and maybe Wisdom, as all good saves only goes so far and Favored Souls tend to melee at least a little, so they could probably use some more Str and Con.

Are you suggesting something like this for the Favored Soul?
Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 14 (It's not like [s]he has any spells that require saves)

(race/gender) Sorceror:
Str: 12
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 16 (+3 to DCs, is that good enough? Magic Missile doesn't require saves.)

Duskblade (Thinking Female Elf or Male Dwarf):
Str: 16
Dex: 12 [E: +2]
Con: 12 [E: -2;D: +2)
Int: 16
Wis: 10
Cha: 10 [D: -2]

Psychic Warrior (No race/gender decided):
Str: 16
Dex: 10
Con: 16
Int: 12
Wis: 14
Cha: 10

Cieyrin
2009-09-23, 01:01 PM
For the Favored Soul, I was thinking:

Str: 14
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 16

This keeps him up in his spells, and he's built for full plate (even if he's technically not proficient, but he'll probably pick up proficiency somewhere along the line, anyways).

DragoonWraith
2009-09-23, 03:17 PM
This keeps him up in his spells, and he's built for full plate (even if he's technically not proficient, but he'll probably pick up proficiency somewhere along the line, anyways).
What, why?

Especially on the casters, I do think the 18 is worth your other stats, easily.

You could just show them a couple different stat arrays, point out "this one means you have more and stronger spells, but you can't carry as much, and your accuracy and power in melee is lower."

As has been pointed out in the primary casting stat thread, the other stats are objectively not worth your casting stat.