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sonofzeal
2009-09-21, 08:05 PM
Alright, so, I'm an optimizer. I freely admit it; I know the rules, I know what's out there, and I know what works. The problem is, most of the people I game with couldn't tell their Cover from their Concealment if their life depended on it, still take Weapon Focus on every character, and tend to have nervous breakdowns if there's more than two buffs going around at a time. I DM for them when I can, and try to encourage optimization skills, but really what I want to do is play. I can't bring myself to just make a terrible character, and if I play a buffmonkey then people can't keep track of it all. What I need are limits I have to work inside, things I can optimize for that won't break the game and lead to characters that are fun to play.


tl;dr - I'm asking for suggested limits that can be placed on pro veteran players so that they can still optimize but won't overshadow a newbie group.

Examples:
- Must play a tier 5/6 class
- 3d6 organic stats
- DM chooses feats
- Must take Vow of Poverty and/or Peace (overrules alignment if necessary)

....any others?

RagnaroksChosen
2009-09-21, 08:28 PM
Alright, so, I'm an optimizer. I freely admit it; I know the rules, I know what's out there, and I know what works. The problem is, most of the people I game with couldn't tell their Cover from their Concealment if their life depended on it, still take Weapon Focus on every character, and tend to have nervous breakdowns if there's more than two buffs going around at a time. I DM for them when I can, and try to encourage optimization skills, but really what I want to do is play. I can't bring myself to just make a terrible character, and if I play a buffmonkey then people can't keep track of it all. What I need are limits I have to work inside, things I can optimize for that won't break the game and lead to characters that are fun to play.


tl;dr - I'm asking for suggested limits that can be placed on pro veteran players so that they can still optimize but won't overshadow a newbie group.

Examples:
- Must play a tier 5/6 class
- 3d6 organic stats
- DM chooses feats
- Must take Vow of Poverty and/or Peace (overrules alignment if necessary)

....any others?

Play a monk?

Stephen_E
2009-09-21, 08:30 PM
My system is to coose something silly and sub-optimal and then use your optimising skills to make it decent.

Try a Net and Trident melee build.

Make the highest AC build possible. (I did a theorectical Nixie Blackguard/Hexblade build but my current GM won't allow non-standard races). This build was particuly juicy because it did little but act as a wall that did Stand Still attacks and trashed the saves of any enemy nearby, thus making casters very happy and leaving melee types free to smack attack without getting overshadowed.

Random;y choose one of the weapon style feats from Complete Warrior and make it the complete focus of your character.

Stephen E

sonofzeal
2009-09-21, 08:31 PM
Play a monk?
That's fall under "must play a Tier 5/6 class". Any others?

Zeta Kai
2009-09-21, 08:32 PM
I don't know if this has ever been said with any degree of serious, but here goes:

TRUENAMER FTW!!!

Elfin
2009-09-21, 08:36 PM
As Stephen_E said, it might be good to start with a sub-optimal concept and do the best you can with it.

sonofzeal
2009-09-21, 08:38 PM
Indeed, working with an inherently poor concept is right along these lines too. Suggestions appreciated!

Drothmal
2009-09-21, 08:39 PM
Playing a caster who can only use low level spells (max level of spell you could actually cast -4). You could still use metamagics, but without taking prestige classes that make them broken

sonofzeal
2009-09-21, 08:44 PM
Playing a caster who can only use low level spells (max level of spell you could actually cast -4). You could still use metamagics, but without taking prestige classes that make them broken
That actually gives me an idea - playing a Sor/Wiz, but voluntarily using Adept spellslot progressions (unless the day needs saving).

RagnaroksChosen
2009-09-21, 08:46 PM
Playing a caster who can only use low level spells (max level of spell you could actually cast -4). You could still use metamagics, but without taking prestige classes that make them broken

I have to secound this..

Or play a one trick pony... like a Magic missle mage or something/

Elfin
2009-09-21, 08:49 PM
Hmm, here are two specific suggestions-
-A blaster sorcerer getting in touch with his draconic side, who takes the Draconic Heritage line of feats.
-A warblade/Mo9 who fights with a bastard sword and unarmed strike, and takes the Wep. Focus line.

Edit: I'd second the idea of voluntarily sucking by not using the resources at your disposal, then if the group needs help pull out the big guns. It might frustrate the DM, though, if you suddenly turn into Batman and decimate the BBEG.

FMArthur
2009-09-21, 08:52 PM
Two-weapon-fighting hand crossbow user. Has the potential for large returns but you won't have the feats to power it early without flaws, which I'm assuming most of your group has never even heard of.

Drothmal
2009-09-21, 08:53 PM
Play a goblin, a kobolk (not pun pun) or another race that starts below CR1

Keld Denar
2009-09-21, 08:56 PM
Do something like a Hexblade/Barbarian debuffer build. Get a decent Cha, max out Intimdate, Hex the hell out of someone, fear em, and trap em in a net. That'll make their ACs so low a blind monk could hit them.

Alternatively, play a Bard, pump up some Inspire Courage, and toss nets. You'll boost the heck out of your allies, debuff a little, and if shiss really gets scary, toss out a Glitterdust or a Grease and keep on rawkin!

AmberVael
2009-09-21, 09:00 PM
Here's something I've always wanted to play:

Take a spellcasting class. But instead of focusing on your spells, focus on optimizing them for Reserve feats, and get every single reserve feat you can get your hands on.

neoseph7
2009-09-21, 09:03 PM
Alright, so, I'm an optimizer. I freely admit it; I know the rules, I know what's out there, and I know what works. The problem is, most of the people I game with couldn't tell their Cover from their Concealment if their life depended on it, still take Weapon Focus on every character, and tend to have nervous breakdowns if there's more than two buffs going around at a time. I DM for them when I can, and try to encourage optimization skills, but really what I want to do is play. I can't bring myself to just make a terrible character, and if I play a buffmonkey then people can't keep track of it all. What I need are limits I have to work inside, things I can optimize for that won't break the game and lead to characters that are fun to play.


tl;dr - I'm asking for suggested limits that can be placed on pro veteran players so that they can still optimize but won't overshadow a newbie group.

Examples:
- Must play a tier 5/6 class
- 3d6 organic stats
- DM chooses feats
- Must take Vow of Poverty and/or Peace (overrules alignment if necessary)

....any others?

Limit your source material. Keep it core. Let everyone make dire half dragon werebear hexblade/incarnum users or whatnot, and just stick with core. Optimized core will be about as powerful as a normal character from a cheese book.

As a DM to fight cheese, change the game subtly so that you don't know what all the good combinations are anymore, and rediscover optimization ruetines. I highly recomend Gestalt in Conjunction with Magic Recharge Core only for a live game. Even at first level, the game is a lot of fun.

As for general limitations, find a DM that rules lawyers worse than you, and he won't let you take half the stuff that really makes your character really OP.:smallwink:

Kyeudo
2009-09-21, 09:09 PM
Limit your source material. Keep it core. Let everyone make dire half dragon werebear hexblade/incarnum users or whatnot, and just stick with core. Optimized core will be about as powerful as a normal character from a cheese book.

As a DM to fight cheese, change the game subtly so that you don't know what all the good combinations are anymore, and rediscover optimization ruetines. I highly recomend Gestalt in Conjunction with Magic Recharge Core only for a live game. Even at first level, the game is a lot of fun.

As for general limitations, find a DM that rules lawyers worse than you, and he won't let you take half the stuff that really makes your character really OP.:smallwink:
{scrubbed} Optimized Core is Batman Wizards and Codzilla. 80% of major broken material comes out of Core. Werecreatures and half-dragons aren't worth their LA. Gestalt is broken no matter how you do it.


My suggestion is play Red Mage from 8-bit theater. Most of the time, don't even cast your spells, because doing so could limit your effectiveness later in the day, and do crazy, nonsensical stuff out of a misguided quest for character power. Then, if necessary, bust out the crazy awesome plans that save the party from certain death. Also, create a cold fusion reactor out of ice.

AgentPaper
2009-09-21, 09:09 PM
Be a cleric, and fill every single spell slot with healing spells. No other rules. You can still use domains as normal, which will be your only non-healing spells.

Myrmex
2009-09-21, 09:17 PM
Try a sword & board fighter, an archer, or a blaster. With proper optimization, all will function perfectly well in a group that doesn't optimize, and they'll prolly be fun cause they're such classic archetypes.


{scrubbed} Optimized Core is Batman Wizards and Codzilla. 80% of major broken material comes out of Core. Werecreatures and half-dragons aren't worth their LA. Gestalt is broken no matter how you do it.

The C of CoDzilla doesn't really work in Core.

Gralamin
2009-09-21, 09:20 PM
Try a sword & board fighter, an archer, or a blaster. With proper optimization, all will function perfectly well in a group that doesn't optimize, and they'll prolly be fun cause they're such classic archetypes.



The C of CoDzilla doesn't really work in Core.

It does, just not as a permanent effect, taking a few rounds of buffing instead. Druid works a lot better in core though, yeah.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-21, 09:33 PM
Two-weapon-fighting hand crossbow user. Has the potential for large returns but you won't have the feats to power it early without flaws, which I'm assuming most of your group has never even heard of.

Umm....

I made one of these yesterday.

He did 44756 damage in the Test of Spite.


ANYWAY...last time I played, I convinced the DM to have the other characters be geshalt. Then I helped them with their basic builds. It actually worked out fairly well.

Myrmex
2009-09-21, 09:41 PM
It does, just not as a permanent effect, taking a few rounds of buffing instead. Druid works a lot better in core though, yeah.

The turns lost to putting personal buffs up means that fighter/rogue have been putting out a lot of damage without using resources. By the time you've got enough spells on you to be competent with the fighter, the fight's halfway over.

Cleric works better as a party buffer/secondary caster (casting dispel, fly-type spells, utility spells like shape stone) in core, in my experience.

The Glyphstone
2009-09-21, 09:45 PM
The turns lost to putting personal buffs up means that fighter/rogue have been putting out a lot of damage without using resources. By the time you've got enough spells on you to be competent with the fighter, the fight's halfway over.

Cleric works better as a party buffer/secondary caster (casting dispel, fly-type spells, utility spells like shape stone) in core, in my experience.

Core CoDZilla is a lot less buff-heavy than full CoDZilla. He spends one round buffing, throwing up a Quickened Divine Favor and a Divine Power, then wades into melee and starts beating just as competently as the fighter will. In core, there's no Ubercharger, which means the fighter is unlikely to have done a massive amount of damage in his first round - the rogue will have done more, but that's assuming the enemies can be sneak attacked. With a Rod of Quicken Spell, he can throw in Righteous Might, but that's just icing on the cake - the wizard can just Mass Enlarge Person him and the fighter.

Umael
2009-09-21, 10:06 PM
Go for the bizarre race/class combos.

Half-orc sorcerer.
Halfling barbarian.
Goliath bard.

Furthermore, make sure to go gish.

Have your half-orc sorcerer have a high strength and use things like True Strike. Pick up Exotic Weapon Proficiency as soon as you can and take Toughness feats as soon as you can.

Have your halfling barbarian have Strength has his 2nd highest stat, go for a stealth-barbarian concept (you can't see me, now I attack you from surprise!).

As for your Goliath bard... I don't know... have him use two clubs, put all his feats in Two-Weapon Fighting, and put his ranks into Perform (Percussion) and Perform (Rap)...

sonofzeal
2009-09-21, 10:06 PM
Limit your source material. Keep it core. Let everyone make dire half dragon werebear hexblade/incarnum users or whatnot, and just stick with core. Optimized core will be about as powerful as a normal character from a cheese book.

As a DM to fight cheese, change the game subtly so that you don't know what all the good combinations are anymore, and rediscover optimization ruetines. I highly recomend Gestalt in Conjunction with Magic Recharge Core only for a live game. Even at first level, the game is a lot of fun.

As for general limitations, find a DM that rules lawyers worse than you, and he won't let you take half the stuff that really makes your character really OP.:smallwink:
As many others have said, Core is actually the worst offender for imbalance.


.....actually, that's an interesting idea - going 100% non-Core! That practically rules out the top five classes (as Archivist, Artificer, and Erudite all crib highly off of Core spell lists). Everything else, there'd be some trouble with feats/races, but it'd be surmountable.

(edit) Or, a Wizard with all non-Core spells. No Greater Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Summon Monster, Polymorph, True Strike, Glitterdust, Mass Enlarge Person, Antimagic Field.... man, that'd be haaaard.

Temet Nosce
2009-09-21, 10:13 PM
As many others have said, Core is actually the worst offender for imbalance.


.....actually, that's an interesting idea - going 100% non-Core! That practically rules out the top five classes (as Archivist, Artificer, and Erudite all crib highly off of Core spell lists). Everything else, there'd be some trouble with feats/races, but it'd be surmountable.

(edit) Or, a Wizard with all non-Core spells. No Greater Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Summon Monster, Polymorph, True Strike, Glitterdust, Mass Enlarge Person, Antimagic Field.... man, that'd be haaaard.

I do like the non-Core idea, but with SpC it's not gonna hinder casters much. True, it removes several of the worst offender, but they'll still be far more powerful than anything else.

You might consider both going non-Core, and no casting at the same time... That eliminates a lot of the feats that other feats depend on as well.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-21, 10:15 PM
100% noncore is great for weak designs. However, might I suggest a more esoteric and challenging concept?

Melee Mage.

Wizard, focused on front line fighting.

Enlarge Person, Fist of Stone, Bull's Strength.

Not touch spells, mind you. Actually try to Codzilla a wizard.

sonofzeal
2009-09-21, 10:17 PM
I do like the non-Core idea, but with SpC it's not gonna hinder casters much. True, it removes several of the worst offender, but they'll still be far more powerful than anything else.

You might consider both going non-Core, and no casting at the same time... That eliminates a lot of the feats that other feats depend on as well.
It's not just that a lot of the worst offenders are Core, it's that a lot of the basic useful ones are Core too, like Greater Mage Armor, or Mirror Image, or Dispel Magic, stuff that's not broken but is hard to do without. A 100% nonCore Wizard will still have plenty of things he can do, but he loses out on so much of the generic baseline stuff that it'll take much more creativity to get by.

ericgrau
2009-09-21, 10:18 PM
I don't buy it. Even if core were ridiculously unbalanced, the sheer number of options and combos from 20 splatbooks could overwhelm anything for what you can do. Even if no single book is that bad. I smell an exaggeration.

But if you're really stuck on those spells, try this: Core only fighter or monk or etc. non-caster. Ok, go.

Temet Nosce
2009-09-21, 10:23 PM
It's not just that a lot of the worst offenders are Core, it's that a lot of the basic useful ones are Core too, like Greater Mage Armor, or Mirror Image, or Dispel Magic, stuff that's not broken but is hard to do without. A 100% nonCore Wizard will still have plenty of things he can do, but he loses out on so much of the generic baseline stuff that it'll take much more creativity to get by.

Lets see.. Luminous Armor, Mirror Image, greater, Wall of Dispel Magic... Hell, I never use GMA anyways, I prefer to get something I can hang a Soulfire on.

sonofzeal
2009-09-21, 10:26 PM
I don't buy it. Even if core were ridiculously unbalanced, the sheer number of options and combos from 20 splatbooks could overwhelm anything. Even if no single book is that bad. I smell an exaggeration.

But if you're really stuck on those spells, try this: Core only fighter or monk or etc. non-caster. Ok, go.
Done it. Well, mostly. Orc Barbarian/Fighter with Improved Trip and Spiked Chain (requires high Int but is manageable), transitions into Rogue (Wilderness Rogue, if variants are allowed) to SA people while they're down. Buys potions of Enlarge Person, or trains his UMD via Rogue for wands. Can mop the floor (almost literally) with most medium/large things that challenge him in melee, good damage against everything else, and the Rogue side gives some decent utility too.

(edit) And the problem with non-core is, most of it relies on stuff that is core. Core feats are ubiquitous for prerequisites for lots of the best feats/PrCs out there, and a lot of the rest isn't worth taking anyway. You're right that cherrypicking can work, but it's quite a lot more difficult.


Anyway, lot of great ideas guys! Keep 'em coming!

Temet Nosce
2009-09-21, 10:30 PM
Well, beyond my pointing out ways to get those effects outside core... My only other suggestion if you don't want to do non-core/non caster at the same time would be more traditional...

Pure one level build. You can take anything from anywhere, but never more than 1 level of any class.

sonofzeal
2009-09-21, 10:38 PM
Well, beyond my pointing out ways to get those effects outside core... My only other suggestion if you don't want to do non-core/non caster at the same time would be more traditional...

Pure one level build. You can take anything from anywhere, but never more than 1 level of any class.
Non-core / non-caster leads to ToB. Non-that, there's still all sorts of nastiness (DFA with Entangling Exhalation comes to mind). There needs to be some other limit at the same time.

Pure one level build is good fun though. Would PrC's be allowed?

Temet Nosce
2009-09-21, 10:40 PM
Non-core / non-caster leads to ToB. Non-that, there's still all sorts of nastiness (DFA with Entangling Exhalation comes to mind). There needs to be some other limit at the same time.

Pure one level build is good fun though. Would PrC's be allowed?

Your choice, I was implying they would be but if you didn't want to you could skip them. Either way it's an interesting kind of build, and can still be effective to an extent.

taltamir
2009-09-21, 10:51 PM
Alright, so, I'm an optimizer. I freely admit it; I know the rules, I know what's out there, and I know what works. The problem is, most of the people I game with couldn't tell their Cover from their Concealment if their life depended on it, still take Weapon Focus on every character, and tend to have nervous breakdowns if there's more than two buffs going around at a time. I DM for them when I can, and try to encourage optimization skills, but really what I want to do is play. I can't bring myself to just make a terrible character, and if I play a buffmonkey then people can't keep track of it all. What I need are limits I have to work inside, things I can optimize for that won't break the game and lead to characters that are fun to play.


tl;dr - I'm asking for suggested limits that can be placed on pro veteran players so that they can still optimize but won't overshadow a newbie group.

Examples:
- Must play a tier 5/6 class
- 3d6 organic stats
- DM chooses feats
- Must take Vow of Poverty and/or Peace (overrules alignment if necessary)

....any others?

0. ANYTHING non core is by DM approval only!

1. Get the experienced characters to help the newbies optimize. Make sure they are not hijacking the character though.

2. Also ban multiclassing. If someone wants to "multiclass" ask them what they want and craft a custom class for them.

You can loosen those restrictions when your newbies are not newbies anymore.

Question: What is wrong with taking weapon focus?

Kyeudo
2009-09-21, 11:08 PM
I don't buy it. Even if core were ridiculously unbalanced, the sheer number of options and combos from 20 splatbooks could overwhelm anything for what you can do. Even if no single book is that bad. I smell an exaggeration.


The big names for brokenness are all Core spells. Time Stop, Gate, Contingency, Forcecage, Ennervation, Cloud Kill, etc. One of the key pieces in the level 1 pun-pun build is the Core magic item Candle of Invocation.

Now, for broken PrCs you do have to go outside Core, as the best PrC inside Core is the Archmage, but the ammunition you load your Incanitrix and Planar Shepherd with is drawn from inside the covers of the PHB.

sonofzeal
2009-09-21, 11:33 PM
0. ANYTHING non core is by DM approval only!

1. Get the experienced characters to help the newbies optimize. Make sure they are not hijacking the character though.

2. Also ban multiclassing. If someone wants to "multiclass" ask them what they want and craft a custom class for them.

You can loosen those restrictions when your newbies are not newbies anymore.

Question: What is wrong with taking weapon focus?
0. As has been oft-stated in this thread already, that's just a recipe for imbalance. Proportionately speaking, the vast majority of broken stuff comes from Core. Far, far easier to make a broken character using only Core than it is using only the Complete Series, even though there's far more books involved.

1. I do that already. Still, there's a limit to how much they can absorb and deal with effectively.

2. This makes far more work for the DM, while exacerbating some of the key balance issues that D&D already has (spellcasters are overpowered and are better off singleclassing; pre-ToB melee is underpowered but at least benefits from multiclassing). I don't see why any knowledgeable DM would ever institute such a rule.

As to Weapon Focus - a +1 on attack rolls is nice to have, but fundamentally doesn't actually do much for your character. The best use of Feats is to open up new tactical avenues, like Improved Trip or Power Attack or Rapid Shot, all of which provide far more benefit in the long run depending on your combat style. Weapon Focus is a feat to take when you absolutely can't find anything better, and even then I'd go for one of the +2 Save feats. And even then only as a last resort because there's better alternatives (like Scorpion's Resolve, which gives you +4 on most of the Will Saves you care about, or Insightful Reflexes which lets you use Int instead of Dex for Ref saves).

taltamir
2009-09-21, 11:39 PM
2. This makes far more work for the DM, while exacerbating some of the key balance issues that D&D already has (spellcasters are overpowered and are better off singleclassing; pre-ToB melee is underpowered but at least benefits from multiclassing). I don't see why any knowledgeable DM would ever institute such a rule.

Why is it more work? you create or import a homebrew class, once. Then the player never has to bug you again because he has all the data for the entire progression. Most of the things are fairly plug and play. Take a class, then cut out some things (ex, lower HD, lower BAB, lower some saves, Take away casting or Su Abilities), then increase some others (increase BAB, HD, Add magic or Su abilities). A ton of people do it here on the forum for fun...
And as a DM you know everything he is getting (Aside from feat and spell choices of course) in advance...


As to Weapon Focus - a +1 on attack rolls is nice to have, but fundamentally doesn't actually do much for your character. The best use of Feats is to open up new tactical avenues, like Improved Trip or Power Attack or Rapid Shot, all of which provide far more benefit in the long run depending on your combat style. Weapon Focus is a feat to take when you absolutely can't find anything better, and even then I'd go for one of the +2 Save feats. And even then only as a last resort because there's better alternatives (like Scorpion's Resolve, which gives you +4 on most of the Will Saves you care about, or Insightful Reflexes which lets you use Int instead of Dex for Ref saves).

Wow, where do i find insightful reflexes? got any more suggestions for a transmutation based wizard (can only take transmutation spells, there are no "general" wizards in this campaign)? I have been dumping my feats thus far (I almost took alertness! and I took spell focus and greater spell focus transmutation) because I couldn't find any I liked. For my next feat I was debating between weapon focus (ranged touch), Toughness (2HP + 1 per HD)... Although insightful reflexes sounds like a much better choice.

sonofzeal
2009-09-22, 12:06 AM
Why is it more work? you create or import a homebrew class, once. Then the player never has to bug you again because he has all the data for the entire progression. Most of the things are fairly plug and play. Take a class, then cut out some things (ex, lower HD, lower BAB, lower some saves, Take away casting or Su Abilities), then increase some others (increase BAB, HD, Add magic or Su abilities). A ton of people do it here on the forum for fun...
And as a DM you know everything he is getting (Aside from feat and spell choices of course) in advance...[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but "here let me spend an hour or two coming up with a balanced class that fills the niche well and won't ruin gameplay" is a whole lot more work than "yo just make sure the stuff is legal and if it sounds too good to be true then I might have to nerf it."



Wow, where do i find insightful reflexes? got any more suggestions for a transmutation based wizard (can only take transmutation spells, there are no "general" wizards in this campaign)? I have been dumping my feats thus far (I almost took alertness! and I took spell focus and greater spell focus transmutation) because I couldn't find any I liked. For my next feat I was debating between weapon focus (ranged touch), Toughness (2HP + 1 per HD)... Although insightful reflexes sounds like a much better choice.

Try this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732). And know that even that is not really ideal. Again, the best uses for feats is in expanding the number of things you can do (or do effectively). Sudden Extend is a decent one for Transmuters, as is Improved Grapple if you go Polymorph. Really, check through Complete Arcane and Complete Mage, and you should have no trouble finding some good stuff.

Draz74
2009-09-22, 12:55 AM
I never use GMA anyways, I prefer to get something I can hang a Soulfire on.

:smallconfused: I thought the idea was to get +1 Soulfire Padded Armor, and Greater Mage Armor.

Temet Nosce
2009-09-22, 12:57 AM
:smallconfused: I thought the idea was to get +1 Soulfire Padded Armor, and Greater Mage Armor.

I use thistledown padded, Twilight, Mithral, Feycraft, Breastplates of Soulfire +1.

Eldariel
2009-09-22, 02:21 AM
Here's one: Play an Adept. At your option, do or do not use Polymorph but every other spell is a fair game; they actually make for quite an interest Divine/Arcane mix and do fare quite well in proficient hands without the inherent brokenness of straight casters. Also, you can "Wow" people with an NPC class!

CASTLEMIKE
2009-09-22, 04:07 AM
Play lower level games without the Flaw variant and keep the games under L10 and below.

Limit number of source books and PRCs in games perhaps NO PRCs or only bad mechanical PRCs like the Green Star Adept. Handicap the veteran players to 25 point buy with minimum base 8+ ability scores or the default array and core races before racial modifiers while the newbies and nonoptimizers get 32 point buy.

Use default DMG Demographics which really limits PRC availiability since 90% plus live in Thorps, Hamlets and Villages. It takes time to see those powerful people and organization particularly if you are a stranger and want anything other than a brief meet and greet.

No Magic stores unless the PCs take the crafting feats. Monitor down time along with gold and experience cost. Track living expenses particularly during down time.

Magic is "rare" easy to sell even crummy magic at half price because of that fact. Bad magic that is normally available for quick sales [Stolen with shady provenance or minor quirks like intelligent magic items or minor curses]

Player knowledge isn't PC knowledge.

"I use thistledown padded, Twilight, Mithral, Feycraft, Breastplates of Soulfire +1." Seriously why is this available as an option to the PC? Did he kill some BBEG or find it in a treasure? What are the world demographics that support the availability of this particular armor?

Require skill knowledge checks. The Barbarian veteran PC shouldn't know more about magic than the newbie Wizard PC.

Pull a Rokugan. Only fullcaster is Shugenja charisma based divine caster. Only 1 in 1,000 nobles is a Shugenja. Nobles comprise 6% of the population. Sorcerers are even rarer being foreigners. Samauri is a good class because they are a noble and the book keeping for day to day mostly goes away except for ronin.

No Fullcasters and Clerics Druids or Wizards with infinite spell, feat and PRC lists. Remove the broken core spells from play.

Battle Sorcerer variant and Wilders are the only non LA full casters and only in games L7 and below.

In higher level starting games No fullcasters except Wilders and No Educated Wilders. Sorcerers only and need to use high +3 or +4 LA race like Half Dragon or Half Elemental or Half Fiend without buydown for a fullcaster Battle sorcerer.

Play an ECS Magewright. Play a human Jack of Trades dipping 2 - 4 levels in a class.

Temet Nosce
2009-09-22, 04:18 AM
"I use thistledown padded, Twilight, Mithral, Feycraft, Breastplates of Soulfire +1." Seriously why is this available as an option to the PC? Did he kill some BBEG or find it in a treasure? What are the world demographics that support the availability of this particular armor?

Are you making a suggestion to the OP, or addressing me? If the latter, then because it comes from 3.5e books permitted by the DM, no, and I don't see why the demographics would be the same from campaign setting to setting or what they have to do with the availability of such an item barring the subset of individuals necessary to make it being specifically non existent. If the former, then carry on.

CASTLEMIKE
2009-09-22, 04:48 AM
Are you making a suggestion to the OP, or addressing me? If the latter, then because it comes from 3.5e books permitted by the DM, no, and I don't see why the demographics would be the same from campaign setting to setting or what they have to do with the availability of such an item barring the subset of individuals necessary to make it being specifically non existent. If the former, then carry on.

OP, but it is a good example of the optimized magic store game in regard to default demographics cited in the DMG and suggested wealth by level. The DM doesn't forbid, the armor is not acquired adventuring as a treasure but is available to be purchased by the PCs in the campaign world or as part of their suggested wealth by level in higher level games. Player knowledge versus PC knowledge that the armor exists.

Heliomance
2009-09-22, 05:48 AM
{scrubbed} Optimized Core is Batman Wizards and Codzilla. 80% of major broken material comes out of Core. Werecreatures and half-dragons aren't worth their LA. Gestalt is broken no matter how you do it.


Gestalt is NOT broken. Gestalt is inherently higher powered. There's no imbalance in it if everyone is gestalt, and the rules specifically say "if you're going to use this, use it for everyone".

sonofzeal
2009-09-22, 08:30 AM
Gestalt is NOT broken. Gestalt is inherently higher powered. There's no imbalance in it if everyone is gestalt, and the rules specifically say "if you're going to use this, use it for everyone".
To be fair, Gestalt often exacerbates the difference in optimization potential. Pro players can find a whole lot more synergy in their second side, while newbies are more likely to take (say) Evoker//Fighter, with no real plan besides better HD/BAB/Saves and some nice feats.

Telonius
2009-09-22, 09:08 AM
What tier is Knight considered?

sonofzeal
2009-09-22, 10:01 AM
What tier is Knight considered?
Tier 5 in JaronK's system, alongside Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert, OA Samurai, and Paladin, and above the Tier 6 CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, and Commoner.

Telonius
2009-09-22, 10:42 AM
Interesting. Awhile back we were having a discussion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117186)about designing a Wizard bodyguard. My suggestion was a Knight with Vow of Peace, focus on Charisma. Test of Mettle forces your enemies to attack you, and their weapons have to make fortitude saves if they hit.

Myrmex
2009-09-22, 01:02 PM
The big names for brokenness are all Core spells. Time Stop, Gate, Contingency, Forcecage, Ennervation, Cloud Kill, etc. One of the key pieces in the level 1 pun-pun build is the Core magic item Candle of Invocation.

Now, for broken PrCs you do have to go outside Core, as the best PrC inside Core is the Archmage, but the ammunition you load your Incanitrix and Planar Shepherd with is drawn from inside the covers of the PHB.

Contingency is pretty bad, but not nearly as bad as Craft Contingent Spell, a feat from Complete Wizard-fap.

Too many things are immune to Enervation & Cloudkill to make them that worthwhile. Time Stop, Gate, and Shapechange are probably the most ugly offenders in Core. Planar Binding ranks high, as well.

Eldariel
2009-09-22, 02:09 PM
Contingency is pretty bad, but not nearly as bad as Craft Contingent Spell, a feat from Complete Wizard-fap.

Too many things are immune to Enervation & Cloudkill to make them that worthwhile. Time Stop, Gate, and Shapechange are probably the most ugly offenders in Core. Planar Binding ranks high, as well.

Frankly, I think Polymorph Any Object is worse. Since it's permanent. And increases your Int. That **** ain't right.

sonofzeal
2009-09-22, 03:07 PM
Frankly, I think Polymorph Any Object is worse. Since it's permanent. And increases your Int. That **** ain't right.
Hey now, we've already agreed that Core has the most game-breaking stuff, as well as a lot of the just plain overpowered. Avoiding Core entirely is already on the table as a way to set the bar higher and allow the pro to optimize without overshadowing anyone.


Any more ideas of ways to limit optimizers without asking them to stop optimizing?

Eldariel
2009-09-22, 03:16 PM
Hey now, we've already agreed that Core has the most game-breaking stuff, as well as a lot of the just plain overpowered. Avoiding Core entirely is already on the table as a way to set the bar higher and allow the pro to optimize without overshadowing anyone.


Any more ideas of ways to limit optimizers without asking them to stop optimizing?

Honestly, I'm gonna extend my suggestion: NPC classes only. That should be interesting, especially given that Aristocrat, Expert and Adept are all quite "solid" (in that they have something going on for them).

Platinius
2009-09-22, 03:18 PM
How about a dual-wielding rogue?

Gnaeus
2009-09-22, 03:46 PM
Play an item crafter. Make the best non-artificer crafter you can. Pick your spells for their utility in making items. Get Craft Wondrous at 3rd, Craft Arms and Armor at 6th, Rings at 12th. Spend every free day crafting items for your teammates, while you rely on found loot and your spells. Start with your weakest party member, and fix the holes in his build. Make him an invisible flying monk with top AC and saves and a huge enhancement bonus on his natural attacks. Repeat with the new weakest party member, until they are all worthy of play. See if you can burn enough XP to drop yourself an entire level.

Akal Saris
2009-09-22, 06:37 PM
Play an item crafter. Make the best non-artificer crafter you can. Pick your spells for their utility in making items. Get Craft Wondrous at 3rd, Craft Arms and Armor at 6th, Rings at 12th. Spend every free day crafting items for your teammates, while you rely on found loot and your spells. Start with your weakest party member, and fix the holes in his build. Make him an invisible flying monk with top AC and saves and a huge enhancement bonus on his natural attacks. Repeat with the new weakest party member, until they are all worthy of play. See if you can burn enough XP to drop yourself an entire level.

I really like this idea. Zeal, if you give them easy items that apply a permanent buff (Gloves of Dex, Cloak of Resistance, etc) it won't be hard for them to remember the stats, but they'll be grateful for the items and will perform better in combat. Likewise, if you give them the same buff every game, they'll get used to doing that math too. Hopefully.

So yeah - try playing a craft-focused wizard or artificer. Spend your feats and exp on crafting for the others, and use your spells to either buff them or shine a little bit. God knows both classes are complex enough to suit your desire for optimization, after all =)

Gnaeus
2009-09-22, 06:51 PM
Doesn't even need to be wizard or artificer. Cleric, druid, and spirit shaman all work great for this. Even sorcerer or favored soul can work (playing a sorc with his spells chosen for crafting utility is a real challenge).

Myrmex
2009-09-22, 09:22 PM
Maybe try playing a character that doesn't take more than one level in any class? Since T1 classes are only T1 if you spend all your levels on them, so wizard1/druid1/artificer1 would be really weaksauce without some really clever spell selection.


Frankly, I think Polymorph Any Object is worse. Since it's permanent. And increases your Int. That **** ain't right.

Oh yeah, PAO is bad, but a dispellable boost to your int isn't AWFULLY broken. Not like, say, using it to enter Beholder Mage or Illithid Savant.

sonofzeal
2009-09-23, 03:20 AM
Crafter sounds like a good idea, actually! Especially cribbing heavily from MIC. Could combine well with the Adept-wannabe, since he'd still technically have the spells even if he isn't casting them.

Now the question is.... what to combine it with? I'm thinking of doing Cleric with the Adept-wannabe concept, or Wizard with the non-Core concept. It'd be hard to get the necessary spells non-Core though, so Cleric Adept-y Crafter?

The Corinthian
2009-09-23, 05:17 AM
Personally, apart from crafter, which was a great idea, like a buffmonkey at one remove, and non-core-only, which I think could be hilarious, I think the only good option is to pick a deliberately suboptimal concept and optimize that. Arbitrarily using only some of your spell slots, using weaker stats, choosing your feats by die roll, or things like that, are likely to just annoy the other players and might make them feel patronized. (Not without reason, either, IMO.)

Fortunately however, there is a wide array of such options:
Non-magical buffmonkey (Marshal or something, with feats like Improved Aid Another) Greataxe-dualwielding monkey-grip ranger/barbarian, Half-Dragon monk, Sorcerer with strict thematic spell and feat choices (Like, trying to recreate Storm or Pyro from X-Men), or with a non-synergistic PRC like Dragon Disciple, or one that haemorrhages caster levels, like a Green Star Adept, tainted soldier (Knight, Fighter or Knight/fighter who spends all non-bonus feats on Abyssal Heritor or Aberrant feats, also good for drama) ... Really, the sky (or should that be the pit:smallwink:) is the limit.

Realms of Chaos
2009-09-23, 05:25 AM
It seems that you want some hard-set limitations that you want to optimize around. The inherent problem with this is that you, being an optimizer, will find your way around any limitations we put on you and make an overpowered character anyways so long as you are using that philosophy.
If you want to not overshadow other PCs, the only real way to do so is to have some degree of restraint on your part. I'm not telling you to play a first level ranger with ooze as your favored enemy. What I'm asking you to do is take something other than vow of poverty while you are becoming a monk, taking the second-best option in place of the best.

That said, here are some general rules and guidelines to how optomizing can stop you from overshadowing fellow players
or
How to powergame without breaking the minds of noobs:
1. Refrain from actual spellcasters. Binders, Warlocks, and Truenamers are okay, however, as they tend to get fewer buffs and the durations tend to follow set patterns (5 rounds for truenamer, 1 round/level or perpetual for Binder, 24 hours for Warlock). Even if you are good at math, some DMs will be reluctant to simply let you track all of your duration times (and you wouldn't want to overwhelm them when this happens).
2. Don't bring additional NPCs into the mix, whether they be summons, cohorts and followers, contacts, animal companions, familiars (including item familiars), or magical beasts/dragons/constructs that you buy (and raise, when applicable) fairly and squarely. The DM doesn't need an army of HPs, ACs, saving throws, and initiative rolsl to keep track of.
3. Don't gimp yourself in ways that are utterly meaningless for you. There is optomizing and then there is going overboard. Taking flaws that penalize attack rolls doesn't hurt you at all if you never intend to roll an attack roll. Likewise, don't take the vulnerable flaw in order to take vow of peace (which would net a +5 bonus to AC).
4. Limit yourself to 5 sourcebooks for everything, including equipment not given to you through quests/looting. Many DMs dislike having to to reference 10 pages in 7 books whenever you turn in a character sheet.
5. No infinite loops. Period.
6. Do not seek money or similar rewards beyond your normal wealth by level. Even something as simple as streetside performances can earn you money over time that you are logically not expected to share. To keep you on a proper wealth by level, the DM must therefore give the party less money. If the DM does not do this, you still end up with more money than everyone else.
7. If your build relies upon making a skill chance that there is no reasonable chance for you to fail (even on a natural 1), don't use that build. This rule of thumb stops diplomancers that stop enemies by saying high and also stops you from taking out a bunch of scrolls via UMD (as we are trying to avoid the complications of spells. see guideline 1).
8. If you have seen it on an optimization board and/or have heard about how broken something is, don't try it.
9. Don't metagame. This may sound easy but it is hard to keep your character from making "lucky guesses" when you know what you are up against. Similarly, coming up with a brilliant plan is kind of unlikely if your Intelligence is 12 and your Wisdom is 10. Likewise, an idiot with average wisdom is unlikely to come across a highly-adaptive battle strategy or read the situation well.

Killer Angel
2009-09-23, 05:51 AM
Anyway, lot of great ideas guys! Keep 'em coming!

I'm a little late for the party, but still I want to give my contribute.
Done by myself in a core-only campaign: play an arcane caster (wiz. or sorc.), that don't want to spill blood by himself or with his spells. He have no problem helping other kills, but don't want to damage his Karma.
You can optimize as long as you want, and you work with powerful spell (greas, web, haste, fly, solid fog, etc).
Great buffer, great battle controller, great utility spells, but the fighters (even the unoptimized ones) will do the dirty work and will have the satisfaction of the killing and will feel important.

Kyeudo
2009-09-23, 11:59 AM
It seems that you want some hard-set limitations that you want to optimize around. The inherent problem with this is that you, being an optimizer, will find your way around any limitations we put on you and make an overpowered character anyways so long as you are using that philosophy.
If you want to not overshadow other PCs, the only real way to do so is to have some degree of restraint on your part. I'm not telling you to play a first level ranger with ooze as your favored enemy. What I'm asking you to do is take something other than vow of poverty while you are becoming a monk, taking the second-best option in place of the best.


Vow of Poverty, by the numbers, sucks on anyone that is not already a full caster. It doesn't shore up enough weaknesses (like lack of flight) to compensate for a full set of magic items. If you want to use Vow of Poverty, you play a Psion or a Sorcerer, not a Monk.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2009-09-23, 01:53 PM
I swear I had not read it before I came up with my next BG thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5847.0)... Honestly


Play an item crafter. Make the best non-artificer crafter you can. Pick your spells for their utility in making items. Get Craft Wondrous at 3rd, Craft Arms and Armor at 6th, Rings at 12th. Spend every free day crafting items for your teammates, while you rely on found loot and your spells. Start with your weakest party member, and fix the holes in his build. Make him an invisible flying monk with top AC and saves and a huge enhancement bonus on his natural attacks. Repeat with the new weakest party member, until they are all worthy of play. See if you can burn enough XP to drop yourself an entire level.The best crafters are cohorts anyways. Otherwise you feel completely worthless when the NPC does it better ...

Gnaeus
2009-09-23, 03:42 PM
I think we can assume that in his low performing, low optimization party, few PCs are toting crafting/buffing cohorts.

Karoht
2009-09-23, 08:02 PM
Concept: Safety Dance Wizard

The idea is, you design all your spells to keep the party out of trouble, without ever busting out some big damage. Like the Batman Wizard but without trying to kill anyone.

Someone's surrounded? Teleport them out of there. Teleport enemies into the impending doom that was just about to kill you or your friends. Constantly.
Looking like a front line is about to break? Toss out Mirror Image to cover retreat.

Heck, feel free to do silly things like open portals... only to have fireballs and arrows or a swooping dragon fly into them.

Don't think of it like buffing everyone. Think of it more like... wrapping the entire party in bubble wrap.

It will take a bit more tactical playing, and it might even be a good modus operandi that could actually help teach the newbies how to play and how to play smart.

Just a thought.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2009-09-23, 09:36 PM
play a caster. multiclass in the first 7 levels so that you dont get 3rd level spells till 7th or 8th. This limits you powerfully, but there are tons of fun prestige classes and interesting things you can get into from this concept, i recently considered implementing this for a short low powered game i was gonna run.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2009-09-23, 11:48 PM
I think we can assume that in his low performing, low optimization party, few PCs are toting crafting/buffing cohorts.I realize that. I'm just saying that is already covered by the 'taking the second best option' line of reasoning.

Something tells me he isn't interested in this thread anymore though. :smallbiggrin:

jiriku
2009-09-24, 12:15 AM
Mystic Theurge crafter.

Random832
2009-10-05, 03:25 PM
However, might I suggest a more esoteric and challenging concept?

Melee Mage.

Wizard, focused on front line fighting.

Enlarge Person, Fist of Stone, Bull's Strength.

Not touch spells, mind you. Actually try to Codzilla a wizard.

You forgot Tenser's Transformation.

Curmudgeon
2009-10-05, 06:30 PM
0. ANYTHING non core is by DM approval only!
And so is everything in core. There's nothing in the rules that states you've got to ask your DM for permission to use any particular part of the game, so I don't get your point. (Of course, if I've missed some official rule, please point it out to me.)

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-05, 07:18 PM
Be a non-bard healer. Only use arcane spells, and no wands. Arcane Disciple might be a good start. :P

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-05, 10:58 PM
What about a gnome focused specialist illusionist that focuses almost completely on non-offensive illusions, such as minor image? Shape the battlefield through crazy shadow magics.

Avoid direct-damage spells, spells with DCs ('cept if you interact with them), as well as the shadow conjuration/evocation spells. If you take a PrC, avoid shadowcraft mage. Go for something that helps you confusticate the battlefield without actually doing anything directly...

Combine with item creationist for evening out the playing field...so to speak.

Drascin
2009-10-06, 05:57 AM
9. Don't metagame. This may sound easy but it is hard to keep your character from making "lucky guesses" when you know what you are up against. Similarly, coming up with a brilliant plan is kind of unlikely if your Intelligence is 12 and your Wisdom is 10. Likewise, an idiot with average wisdom is unlikely to come across a highly-adaptive battle strategy or read the situation well.

But that's not much lower, if at all, than what most of us have, and I'm pretty sure we've all come up with some brilliant plans every now and then :smallwink:.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-06, 10:31 AM
6. Do not seek money or similar rewards beyond your normal wealth by level. Even something as simple as streetside performances can earn you money over time that you are logically not expected to share. To keep you on a proper wealth by level, the DM must therefore give the party less money. If the DM does not do this, you still end up with more money than everyone else.
Isn't this a bit metagame? It leaves a bad taste in my mouth to suppress in-character greed.


7. If your build relies upon making a skill chance that there is no reasonable chance for you to fail (even on a natural 1), don't use that build.
This seems a bit arbitrary, as it covers categories that are either avoided for their own reasons (diplomacy, UMD->spells), or categories that aren't broken. Is it so horrible to succeed on my Survival/Decipher Script/Knowledge/Handle Animal checks all the time? [handle animal breaks rule #3, though so no go]


8. If you have seen it on an optimization board
What's so bad about Spell Focus?

But all in all, good guidelines. Only after you finish outlining the universals (first rules you think of) do you get into possibly contentious territory.