PDA

View Full Version : The benchmark monsters.



Orzel
2009-09-21, 08:17 PM
So I was thinking about gauging a character's strength and "tier" in order to figure out what level each creature should be and when/how the PC should encounter them. Basically going "What monsters should Bryon the town gaurd vet be able to beat down and which one would he just barely defeat?" "Lord Greenbush with his fencing hobby could slay a few zombies but a highly trained orc would be a problem."

What is the strongest sterotypical enemy they should be able to defeat alone? Which common monster do you believe should be their limit?

So in order (excluding dragons and ignoring published levels) which 10 monsters (or type of monsters) do you think display that a character has achieved a new level of power if defeated one on one?

I'd say

Goblin/Kobold grunt
Dire wolf
Zombie/Skeleton
Orc warrior
Warrior from the Underdark
Orge/Minotaur/giant
Troll
Warrior from another plane
Vampire/Lycantrope/Mummy lord
Lich/Pit fiend/Balor

Zeta Kai
2009-09-21, 08:28 PM
I think what you are asking for is a tier system for monsters, right? That would be somewhat complex & rather arguable. You have to do it for each CR level, & many monsters would up for debate ("d00d that monsturz not week it TPKd mah party lol!"). I propose that if you're going to do this at all, then you should set up a category system like the one below:

Lame: This monster could be one CR lower without upsetting game balance.
Weak: This monster is slightly below average for its CR.
Average: This monster (more or less) fits its CR well.
Strong: This monster is slightly above average for its CR.
Scary: This monster should be one CR higher, to improve game balance.

At any rate, it would take a lot of work to evaluate every published monster (all 2,678 of them), regardless of your chosen criteria. Good luck.

holywhippet
2009-09-21, 08:31 PM
You rate a 45 HP direwolf as being weaker than 6 HP skeleton?

It depends on equipment also. A troll needs to be finished off with fire or acid. Your higher end monster have damage reduction - a normal guard can't even hurt the lich unless he has an enchanted blunt weapon.

Orzel
2009-09-21, 08:46 PM
I think what you are asking for is a tier system for monsters, right? That would be somewhat complex & rather arguable. You have to do it for each CR level, & many monsters would up for debate ("d00d that monsturz not week it TPKd mah party lol!"). I propose that if you're going to do this at all, then you should set up a category system like the one below:

Lame: This monster could be one CR lower without upsetting game balance.
Weak: This monster is slightly below average for its CR.
Average: This monster (more or less) fits its CR well.
Strong: This monster is slightly above average for its CR.
Scary: This monster should be one CR higher, to improve game balance.

At any rate, it would take a lot of work to evaluate every published monster (all 2,678 of them), regardless of your chosen criteria. Good luck.

Not really.

Think of it this way.
Here's Grenton.
It gets attacked by wolves. The common citizens of Grenton chase them away.
It gets attacked by goblins. The common citizens of Grenton get their butts whooped and run. The Grenton Guard come in and chase them away.
It gets attacked by zombies. The Grenton Guardsmen can't hanndle zombies. But Old Smithy (been a guard for 20 years), Capt. Jones, and Lt. Mung clear the zombies.
It gets attacked by orcs. Smithy, Jones, Mung and the other vets are overwhelmed. Call Lord Greenbush for the knights. Smash!
Drow! The knights almost all die. Fortunately a beginning adventurer party shows up.
Repeat with stronger and stronger monsters 'til only epic heroes can save Grenton.

Orzel
2009-09-22, 06:26 AM
Anyone? Anyone?

AslanCross
2009-09-22, 06:41 AM
A dire wolf can maul a Human Warrior 1 guardsman every turn (4.5+10~14 damage). On average, assuming they hit every attack, it will take 9-10 turns for a Human Warrior 1 with 13 Strength to kill a dire wolf with a longsword (4.5+1 ~5 damage)

Its auto-trip will work wonders against a tougher guardsman. You'd need to send a troop of 10 guardsmen to kill a dire wolf. Assuming they hit.

Dire wolves are faster and definitely stronger than skeletons.

Kaiyanwang
2009-09-22, 07:09 AM
A dire wolf can maul a Human Warrior 1 guardsman every turn (4.5+10~14 damage). On average, assuming they hit every attack, it will take 9-10 turns for a Human Warrior 1 with 13 Strength to kill a dire wolf with a longsword (4.5+1 ~5 damage)

Its auto-trip will work wonders against a tougher guardsman. You'd need to send a troop of 10 guardsmen to kill a dire wolf. Assuming they hit.



You probably have to send 10 guards the same way, but I hope they use their int (more or less 10 I guess) to take down the wolf.. say, If possible, use ranged weapons, as an example...

AslanCross
2009-09-22, 07:16 AM
Assuming they could spot it from afar, the Dire Wolf can still double move and close the distance quickly (50 ft. movement speed). Crossbowmen would still deal an average of 4.5 damage every turn. Beyond one range increment, the crossbowmen have worse and worse chances of hitting it.

A first level human warrior with Weapon Focus (longsword) and Weapon Focus (light crossbow) would have at most +3 to hit. The Dire Wolf has 14 AC, so each crossbowman must roll 11 or higher. That's roughly a 50% chance of hitting.

If the dire wolf starts 100 feet away from the nearest guard, the warrior's attack bonus drops to +1, and the dire wolf can still charge and chew him up. (assuming the guard is only in leather armor, the dire wolf only misses on a natural 1; the +2 Charge bonus makes that much worse.)

Saph
2009-09-22, 07:36 AM
Okay, here's a try at a 10-rank list, concentrating on evil monstrous humanoids and iconic monsters:

Rank 1: Goblin (CR 1/3)
Rank 2: Hobgoblin (CR 1/2)
Rank 3: Bugbear (CR 1)
Rank 4: Worg (CR 2)
Rank 5: Ogre (CR 3)
Rank 6: Minotaur (CR 4)
Rank 7: Manticore (CR 5)
Rank 8: Wyvern (CR 6)
Rank 9: Bulette (CR 7)
Rank 10: Stone Giant (CR 8)

This leaves out spellcasting/magical enemies, as they tend to be a lot less straightforward. Bruisers are easier to calculate. Note that once you hit Rank 7 and above, enemies start having special abilities which can swing a fight if you're not prepared for them.

Once you hit the CR 10 mark or so, you're into the realm of legendary heroes, so there's not much point having a scale anymore.

seedjar
2009-09-22, 10:37 AM
This leaves out spellcasting/magical enemies, as they tend to be a lot less straightforward. Bruisers are easier to calculate. Note that once you hit Rank 7 and above, enemies start having special abilities which can swing a fight if you're not prepared for them.

This made me think about the way monsters are rated. Monsters with magic and special abilities are more difficult because the party needs to be specially prepared to meet the monster on even ground, right? Effectively, a monster can be several levels higher than the listed CR if a party has no way of penetrating its defenses, or is particularly weak to its modes of attack. So, could someone determine a range for CR? Like, two numbers instead of one; the first assumes a party of four that's totally unprepared to handle the monster's specific qualities, and the second assumes a party which is (reasonably) optimized against them. My knowledge of D&D material and character optimization isn't encyclopedic enough for me to throw out specific examples, but maybe someone out there can expand on the idea.
~Joe

jmbrown
2009-09-22, 10:50 AM
This made me think about the way monsters are rated. Monsters with magic and special abilities are more difficult because the party needs to be specially prepared to meet the monster on even ground, right? Effectively, a monster can be several levels higher than the listed CR if a party has no way of penetrating its defenses, or is particularly weak to its modes of attack. So, could someone determine a range for CR? Like, two numbers instead of one; the first assumes a party of four that's totally unprepared to handle the monster's specific qualities, and the second assumes a party which is (reasonably) optimized against them. My knowledge of D&D material and character optimization isn't encyclopedic enough for me to throw out specific examples, but maybe someone out there can expand on the idea.
~Joe

If I wrote the Monster Manual, a monster's caster level would be taken into account. I always use it as an example because it's really effective, but a Hezrou is a CR 11 creature with a caster level of 13. Difficult encounters can pit you against monsters up to 2-3 levels higher than your EL so it's not unrealistic to fight one of these badboys at level 8 or 9. Round 1: Blasphemy, everyone who isn't evil is dazed/paralyzed.

Hags are another good example. Three green hags, cr 5, form a covey and they now have 7th level spells cast as 9th level casters. Forcecage any spell casters and use invisibility + weakness touch against fighters, you're screwed. A 9th level caster would have dimension door but a green hag by itself is a 5th level challenge so you'd have to balance it out with other monsters to make it appropriate.

The CR system is really, really dumb passed level 5.

bosssmiley
2009-09-22, 11:41 AM
The Gaming Den's Same Game Benchmarks

A meaningful level-appropriate character will have roughly equal W/D/L scores vs these threats. Excessive Wins = overpowered, excessive Loses = underpowered.

EL 5 Challenges
A huge Animated iron statue.
A Basilisk.
A Large Fire Elemental.
A Manticore on the wing.
A Mummy.
A Phase Spider.
A Troll.
A chasm.
A moat filled with acid.
A locked door behind a number of pit traps.
A couple of Centaur Archers in the woods.
A Howler/Allip tag team.
A pit filled with medium monstrous scorpions.
A Grimlock assault team.
A Cleric of Hextor (with his zombies)

EL 7 Challenges
40 ft spiked pit trap with a proximity trigger Fireball (8d6) at the bottom.
A Chimera
A Succubus
An Huge Air Elemental
A Lillend
A Spectre
A pair of Achaierai
A pair of Green Hags
Six Chokers
An Elf Wizard

EL 10 Challenges
A hallway filled with magical runes.
A Fire Giant.
A Young Blue Dragon.
A Bebilith.
A Vrock.
A tag team of Mind Flayers.
An Evil Necromancer.
6 Trolls.
A horde of Shadows.

EL 15 Challenges
A Marut.
A Hullathoin (with its army of skeletons and bloodfiend locusts).
A Nightmare Beast deep in a hedge maze.
A Windghost in the sky.
A Yakfolk cleric with a party of Dao.
A Drow Priestess with an army of ghouls.
A warparty of Cloud Giants.
A Mature Adult White Dragon.
A Death Slaad riding a Titanic Toad.
A Cornugon.
A Gelugon and his Iron Golem bodyguard.
A Rube Goldberg series of contingent weirds triggered to a set of symbols of pain surrounding the artifact.
A pair of Glabrezus
A harem of Succubi.
Twenty Dire Bears.
A dozen Medusa mounted archers on Hellcats.
A forest made out of lava and infested with hostile fire-element dire badgers.
A pair of Beholders

Orzel
2009-09-22, 03:24 PM
Okay, here's a try at a 10-rank list, concentrating on evil monstrous humanoids and iconic monsters:

Rank 1: Goblin (CR 1/3)
Rank 2: Hobgoblin (CR 1/2)
Rank 3: Bugbear (CR 1)
Rank 4: Worg (CR 2)
Rank 5: Ogre (CR 3)
Rank 6: Minotaur (CR 4)
Rank 7: Manticore (CR 5)
Rank 8: Wyvern (CR 6)
Rank 9: Bulette (CR 7)
Rank 10: Stone Giant (CR 8)

This leaves out spellcasting/magical enemies, as they tend to be a lot less straightforward. Bruisers are easier to calculate. Note that once you hit Rank 7 and above, enemies start having special abilities which can swing a fight if you're not prepared for them.


Once you hit the CR 10 mark or so, you're into the realm of legendary heroes, so there's not much point having a scale anymore.

Looks great.

The CR10 mark seems like the stoping point. Past that point you hit groups of the above, advenced versions of the above, extraplanars, and of course dragons.