I Reject You Reality And Subsitute My Own! [Epic Feat]

[Primal Fury]

I had this little idea a while ago and I thought it was hilarious, so I turned it into an epic feat. Tell me what you guys think.

Logical Fallacy [Epic]
Prerequisites: Charisma 25, 30 Ranks in Bluff
Benefit: By proposing an infallible argument to a creature, you can effectively nullify one of its abilities. On a successful Bluff check (DC = creature's HD + 20), the ability is negated (cannot be used) for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier. This cannot be used on the same creature more than once per day.

An example would be: An epic bard is having a spot of trouble with an epic rogue. The bard argues that the rogue really shouldn't be wounding him so badly by stabbing him in an area that is more "vulnerable" to attack, since a generic warrior would be doing far less damage by stabbing him in the exact same spot. If the Bluff check succeeds, then the rogue's sneak attack damage is nullified for the bards Charisma modifier in rounds.

Edit: There. I also changed the example. It does sound a lot more "Bard-y" now that I think about it.

[Nevitan]

*cough* Red Mage *cough*
>.>

[CyberRebirth]

I love it, and I think that I will favorite this page so I can keep it in my list of awesome homebrew ideas.

[Primal Fury]

Well that's nice o' you CyberRebirth; I'm usually not very good with homebrew, so its nice to hear some good stuff 'bout mah work. :smallbiggrin:

[Zeta Kai]

Oh good, I was hoping that somebody would come along & make epic wizards more powerful. My day is complete. :smallwink::smallamused:

[Primal Fury]

In my defense, it could be just as useful for an epic bard. :smalltongue:

[EleventhHour]

Epic Bard (EB) : Hey, Wizard guy!
Epic Wizard (EW) : What?
EB : Since we're going to battle and all, I just thought you might want to know...
EW : What? What could I possibly need to know from you?
EB : That I don't really think your spells work. I mean, it's a bunch of handwiggling and faux latin. How is that supposed to do anything but make me go find someone to do a butchered translation?
EW : THEY ARE SPELLS OF SPACE AND TIME WARPING ABILITY, YOU HAVE SEEN ME DESTROY MOUNTAINS!
EB : Yeah, but what if you were faking it? I mean, seriously, who would believe that throwing bat guano and yelling loudly would make a ball of fire?
EW : ...noone, I guess...
EB : Exactly!

:smallbiggrin:

[Telonius]

*cough* Red Mage *cough*
>.>

That was my first thought as well. :smallbiggrin:

One thing that I'm turning around in my head for this ... would it really be based off of Intelligence, or of Charisma? It seems more like a, "La, la, la, can't hear you!" sort of thing. Logic might even be detrimental to its effect.

[Mongoose87]

That was my first thought as well. :smallbiggrin:

One thing that I'm turning around in my head for this ... would it really be based off of Intelligence, or of Charisma? It seems more like a, "La, la, la, can't hear you!" sort of thing. Logic might even be detrimental to its effect.

I concur. It also would be nice to not make it a wizard thing.

[Cieyrin]

This seems to me to almost require some form of Bluff thrown in. Sure, you see a logical flaw but you gotta persuade the other guy that you're right, too. Having it opposed by their own Knowledge check would also make sense to me, as if you have a better Knowledge of how it works, how can you possibly be dissuaded, amirite?:smallbiggrin:

[Elfin]

This should definitely be based off Charisma, because 1) It's basically a bluff and 2) The last thing we need is more powerful wizards.
But anyway, this is an awesome feat.

[Primal Fury]

Hm. Y'all make some forceful arguments. I'll remedy that then. :smallbiggrin:

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Hm. Y'all make some forceful arguments. I'll remedy that then. :smallbiggrin:

But all of their arguments against using logic used logic! Paradox!

[The Neoclassic]

Having this based off of Charisma and Bluff makes a good lot of sense and then doesn't bring up the even-more-powerful-wizards issue. Well done. I might change the name now though, just because it's more about talking the creature into believing their ability couldn't actually work (bluffing to them about the state of reality) through a seemingly logical but actually faulty argument- after all, if the argument was indeed truly airtight, then those abilities WOULDN'T ever actually work. :smallsmile:

[Cieyrin]

I'd've still included some Knowledge skill in there, as you have to have a basis for making the argument in the first place. The Bluff is that much better when you throw facts at them and the way to do that is to have knowledge of the subject matter, right? Even if that knowledge is a Bardic Knowledge/Lore check, it still sounds good and gives you feet to stand on.

The only other thing I regret is the lack of dueling Knowledge checks, so the knowledgable character can go "What? What're you talking about? Of course it works and here's why! ..."

[Primal Fury]

The Bluff is that much better when you throw facts at them and the way to do that is to have knowledge of the subject matter, right?

...Isn't there an epic application of the Bluff skill that allows you to convince someone to take a dip in a pool of corrosive acid for no other reason than it might be "refreshing"? :smalltongue:

[lord of kobolds]

...Isn't there an epic application of the Bluff skill that allows you to convince someone to take a dip in a pool of corrosive acid for no other reason than it might be "refreshing"? :smalltongue:

I'm pretty sure that was an example from the description for charm person.

[Cute_Riolu]

I love the idea, but it's a REALLY easy check to make. Maybe make it an opposed check or save of some sort?

[Zeta Kai]

I like this feat much better as a Charisma-based uber-bluff. Kudos.

[Primal Fury]

Epic Bard (EB) : Hey, Wizard guy!
Epic Wizard (EW) : What?
EB : Since we're going to battle and all, I just thought you might want to know...
EW : What? What could I possibly need to know from you?
EB : That I don't really think your spells work. I mean, it's a bunch of handwiggling and faux latin. How is that supposed to do anything but make me go find someone to do a butchered translation?
EW : THEY ARE SPELLS OF SPACE AND TIME WARPING ABILITY, YOU HAVE SEEN ME DESTROY MOUNTAINS!
EB : Yeah, but what if you were faking it? I mean, seriously, who would believe that throwing bat guano and yelling loudly would make a ball of fire?
EW : ...noone, I guess...
EB : Exactly!

:smallbiggrin:

I meant to comment on this, but I lost track of time: Yes. That is EXACTLY how it's supposed to work. :smallamused:

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I'm pretty sure that was an example from the description for charm person.

Suggestion, actually. But since one of the epic applications of Bluff basically duplicates suggestion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#instillSuggestioninTarget), he was right about the epic usage.

[Primal Fury]

Yeah. So I don't think Knowledge of the ability would be a big issue on the part of the bluffer.

[readsaboutd&d]

Shouldnt ability be more precise? Otherwise, it seems as though you can remove the entire point of a class for more than enough time for it to be destroyed at epic levels. And shoulnt there be some restriction? Otherwise you could use it on anything regardless of its stats.

[Rutskarn]

Hm. Y'all make some forceful arguments. I'll remedy that then. :smallbiggrin:

Aha! We've rejected your reality and substituted our own!

[Zeta Kai]

Aha! We've rejected your reality and substituted our own!

Ah, the delicious irony of all. :smallbiggrin:

[Cieyrin]

...Isn't there an epic application of the Bluff skill that allows you to convince someone to take a dip in a pool of corrosive acid for no other reason than it might be "refreshing"? :smalltongue:

Well, perhaps a bonus to do so if you have the relevant knowledge, then. Knowledge not required but better if you do know what you're talking about.:smalltongue:

[Primal Fury]

Aha! We've rejected your reality and substituted our own!

:smalleek: :smallfurious: Curses! Hoisted by my own pitard... :smallfrown:

:smalltongue:

[Sudduth]

They already have a feat for that Glymphness.

[Lappy9000]

Aha! We've rejected your reality and substituted our own!I laul'd :smallbiggrin:

[Milskidasith]

Unopposed and easy to make checks make me sad.

The DC of the check should be 10 + a relevant knowledge skill + the creatures HD (maybe on the last part)

[Akisa]

Unopposed and easy to make checks make me sad.

The DC of the check should be 10 + a relevant knowledge skill + the creatures HD (maybe on the last part)

The + creatures HD would make it never be used...

[Milskidasith]

Not really... how many enemies in the books actually have Knowledge: Anything? All the HD would do is prevent lucky rolling from allowing an epic level wizard who knows everything the physics behind all possible magic and most impossible magic that his magic is, in fact, not possible. (Then again, Mind Blank solves that problem.)

When your skill is an easy and unopposed check that is comparable to epic magic, something's wrong.

[Kredine]

May I just say. I LOVE THIS FEAT.
If you have no problem with it I am using it in my collection of homebrewed stuff I like.

[Godskook]

Love it, but I think an opposed sense motive check should also be included, for those people who actually invest in sense motive.

[Primal Fury]

Opposed by Sense Motive? That really wouldn't help a whole lot of characters. A wizard who takes... that one feat that lets them use their Intelliegence for will saves really isn't going to be worrying about wisdom. It'd be the same for a sorcerer and Force of Personality.

[Cieyrin]

Opposed by Sense Motive? That really wouldn't help a whole lot of characters. A wizard who takes... that one feat that lets them use their Intelliegence for will saves really isn't going to be worrying about wisdom. It'd be the same for a sorcerer and Force of Personality.

Force of Personality wouldn't help, as your feat isn't specifically mind-affecting.

[Primal Fury]

I never said Force of Personality would help. I just meant that a sorcerer is more likely to ignore wisdom if they have it, and will have a low Sense Motive check as a result.

[Milskidasith]

The DC should be either a Sense Motive check, or a check based on a relevant Knowledge skill, or their spellcraft (if it involves casting spells), whichever is higher. You shouldn't be able to bluff an epic level wizard with 200+ to spellcraft and knowledge (Arcana) with a DC HD+20 unopposed bluff check (not that you could use a mind affecting ability on an epic wizard, but still.)