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View Full Version : Sneak Attacking With A Gun(4e)



DragonBaneDM
2009-09-21, 10:49 PM
I'm playing a gunner ranger in my latest 4e campaign, and I love it thus far. Dealing 50 damage to stuff twice your level when you're only level 5 to begin with feels GOOD!!!

Here's the thing though, I saw a bunch of feats that I like for him, mostly for fluff reasons, and there aren't that many "essential" feats for an Archer Build I can find, so I figure I can spare a few to multiclass.

My character is a Pirate, so multiclassing rogue makes sense. I also went with Two Weapon Fighting, just because he carries a bunch of pistols on him, in traditional Pirate fashion, and I love the idea of a half orc dual wielding pistols. That and Toughness rocks due to how it ties in with his survivalist build.

I want to multclass Rogue for a variety of reasons. I think it makes sense for my character, and Two Fisted Shooter would be fun for the pistols, which I actually have yet to fire. Tie that in with the extra Sneak Attack dice, and some decent powers I'm sure I could find, and it all works.

Problem is my DM can't see me Sneak Attacking with his Revolvers that go, as most guns do, BANG BANG BANG!!!

Any ideas how I could bullspit him into going for this?:smalleek:

tyckspoon
2009-09-21, 10:55 PM
Problem is my DM can't see me Sneak Attacking with his Revolvers that go, as most guns do, BANG BANG BANG!!!

Any ideas how I could bullspit him into going for this?:smalleek:

You might remind him that Sneak Attack actually has nothing to do with sneaking- it is available when you have Combat Advantage. It makes no difference how loud the weapon is when you have your friend smacking them very hard in the head to stun/daze/whatever other conditions grant CA.

Alternately, point out that by the time your weapons make any noise you have already made your attack. If the attack was launched from stealth, you'll resolve the attack before the enemies are alerted. You may ruin your stealth for further attacks, but that initial one should certainly qualify for Sneak Attack.

Mauril Everleaf
2009-09-21, 10:55 PM
Well, unless you can convince him that your pistols are a light blade, sling, or crossbow, then no amount of handy explanation on how you can apply your precision damage can by-pass that RAW without a houserule.


SNEAK ATTACK
Once per round, when you have combat advantage against an enemy and hit that enemy with an attack that uses a crossbow, a light blade, or a sling, the attack deals extra damage. If you have dealt Sneak Attack damage since the start of your turn, you cannot deal it again until the start of your next turn. You decide whether to apply the extra damage after making the damage roll. As you advance in level, your extra damage increases.

I would just stick with the Ranger's Hunter's Quarry damage and call it a day. No convincing needed there.

DragonBaneDM
2009-09-21, 11:04 PM
Well gosh darnit!!!! Hm... I could see him eventually going for it. But he'll probably bring up the point Mauril made sooner or later. I'll keep pushing it. I just like the Rogue fluff it would bring for him.

EDIT: Hm... Since Street Thug exists, I could try to talk him into an alternative feat for Ironbows, the proper term of guns in his campaign. What thinks ye, gentlemen?

DragonBaneDM
2009-09-21, 11:21 PM
He's gonna lemmee do it!!! Gonna have to spend a second feat to sneak attack with my pistols, but it's good to go! :D

Hm... I'm not sure if I should, but I may post another thread for help with this new build, but if anyone wants to weigh in I'd appreciate it.

Here's what I'm looking at:

When I'm in "Rogue Mode", I'll have two pistols out, which deal 1d8 at a good range. I'm gonna take Two Fisted Shooter, so reloading becomes cake, and crits with these let me make another attack, and multiple attacks are the point of the ranger.

What other feats, and rogue powers, would work really well for this guy?

serok42
2009-09-22, 06:18 AM
Well, unless you can convince him that your pistols are a light blade, sling, or crossbow, then no amount of handy explanation on how you can apply your precision damage can by-pass that RAW without a houserule.


Guns Sling Bullets

He is a gun slinger :smallcool:

Sipex
2009-09-22, 08:22 AM
Houseruling a feat to allow you to sneak attack with pistols sounds reasonable.

Hey, what book are guns detailed in or did your DM stat them up himself?

Tiki Snakes
2009-09-22, 09:27 AM
Houseruling a feat to allow you to sneak attack with pistols sounds reasonable.

Hey, what book are guns detailed in or did your DM stat them up himself?

I'm guessing it's homebrew, myself. I thoroughly endorse piratical pistol sneak-attacking, too. I thoroughly intend to write in some dwarven air-pirates in my next campaign, so shall be likely doing much the same myself.

LibraryOgre
2009-09-22, 09:51 AM
FWIW, since you can sneak attack with crossbows, I can see no reason whatsoever that it wouldn't work with pistols.

Dixieboy
2009-09-22, 09:57 AM
Well, unless you can convince him that your pistols are a light blade, sling, or crossbow, then no amount of handy explanation on how you can apply your precision damage can by-pass that RAW without a houserule.



I would just stick with the Ranger's Hunter's Quarry damage and call it a day. No convincing needed there.So wait, you can't sneak attack with a bow?

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-22, 09:58 AM
FWIW, since you can sneak attack with crossbows, I can see no reason whatsoever that it wouldn't work with pistols.

Some crossbows even fire bullets! And there's such a thing as a gun that shoots bolts.

They are, for all intents and purposes, the same thing. The only difference is the amount of recoil - making pistols require another feat to use well.

Dixieboy
2009-09-22, 09:59 AM
Some crossbows even fire bullets! And there's such a thing as a gun that shoots bolts.

Your sarcasm broke, the bolded part is actually true.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-22, 09:59 AM
Your sarcasm broke, the bolded part is actually true.

I... I wasn't being sarcastic.

Guns and crossbows really are the same sort of weapon, and both crossbows that fire bullets (where do you think they got the idea for muskets?) and guns that fire bolts are very real weapons.

Dixieboy
2009-09-22, 10:00 AM
I... I wasn't being sarcastic.

My sarcasm-o-meter is the broken thing it seems then.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-22, 10:01 AM
My God, is that all you people see me as now? The sarcastic guy?

I... I need to go lie down.

Tehnar
2009-09-22, 10:03 AM
So anyone have any idea why you can't sneak attack with anything other then the listed weapons?

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-22, 10:04 AM
Thematic appropriateness. Rogues are the guys who use light blades, crossbows and slings.

Plus, sneak attacking with a five-foot-long sword is just silly.

Tiki Snakes
2009-09-22, 10:04 AM
So wait, you can't sneak attack with a bow?

not afaik. However, you can sneak attack with (one handed?)hammers and picks, if you are a dwarf, and pick the appropriate racial feat from, er, somewhere. ^_^

Dixieboy
2009-09-22, 10:05 AM
So anyone have any idea why you can't sneak attack with anything other then the listed weapons?

Because the other core weapons aren't really stereotypically sneaky. (Maybe apart from the bow)

Tehnar
2009-09-22, 10:07 AM
Hmm I wouldn't call a Great Crossbow exactly a sneaky weapon.

Kylarra
2009-09-22, 10:08 AM
Thematic appropriateness. Rogues are the guys who use light blades, crossbows and slings.

Plus, sneak attacking with a five-foot-long sword is just silly.
You can do it as an eladrin though... for -1 die sneak attack damage with a feat.

Dixieboy
2009-09-22, 10:10 AM
Hmm I wouldn't call a Great Crossbow exactly a sneaky weapon.

I think of that as a sniper or something like that.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-22, 10:11 AM
Crossbows are good sniping weapons. Better than bows, at least.

And they're not particularly loud. You could fire one from a floor up and nobody would notice - until you hit someone.

dragoonsgone
2009-09-22, 12:38 PM
So anyone have any idea why you can't sneak attack with anything other then the listed weapons?

I always thought it was for balance too. Light weapons are lower damage than heavy weapons. Crossbows have comparable damage to a bow but require an action to reload without a feat.

FoE
2009-09-22, 12:52 PM
There are ... guns in 4E? Where are there guns?

I don't mind, of course. I'm not one of those proponents of Fantasy Gun Control. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasyGunControl)

Prime32
2009-09-22, 12:54 PM
This thread's title made me think of Unforgotten Realms

"And then kill them in their sleep... with a gun!"

Artanis
2009-09-22, 01:19 PM
So wait, you can't sneak attack with a bow?

You can't hardly do anything with a bow. If you're a Ranger and want to use a bow, you might as well just forget about multiclassing altogether.

BobTheDog
2009-09-22, 01:58 PM
You can't hardly do anything with a bow. If you're a Ranger and want to use a bow, you might as well just forget about multiclassing altogether.

There is some Bard stuff in Arcane power that works with bows, too... I think.

Artanis
2009-09-22, 02:13 PM
There is, but you have to qualify for the MC feat first, which isn't easy for a class with CHA as an official dump stat. The Artificer also has stuff that works with bows, but again, the feat requires pumping a dump stat.

Edit:

The only option I can recall finding is Seldarine Dedicate (Cleric PP from Divine Power). However, only Elves and Eladrin can take it, and it specifies Shortbow or Longbow, meaning no superior weapon feats.

LibraryOgre
2009-09-22, 02:28 PM
There's also some Warlord powers that work via Ranged Weapons, and some Rogue powers (though those MAY require you be using a "rogue weapon").

DragonBaneDM
2009-09-22, 04:09 PM
Houseruling a feat to allow you to sneak attack with pistols sounds reasonable.

Hey, what book are guns detailed in or did your DM stat them up himself?

He statted themselves out himself.

EDIT: And also, what do you guys think of me taking the feat Two Fisted Shooter? I asked that awhile ago and have yet to really see a response.

FoE
2009-09-22, 04:13 PM
He statted themselves out himself.

I'd love to see some of those.


EDIT: And also, what do you guys think of me taking the feat Two Fisted Shooter? I asked that awhile ago and have yet to really see a response.

I'm not ignoring you, I just don't have Martial Power and can't comment.

hamishspence
2009-09-22, 04:14 PM
if anything, its more feasible than with a hand crossbow, if the gun is small- I can easily imagine a person taking a sneaky shot with a pistol concealed in their pocket or behind their cloak.

DragonBaneDM
2009-09-22, 04:22 PM
I'd love to see some of those.



I'm not ignoring you, I just don't have Martial Power and can't comment.

Well here's Two-Fisted Shooter's Benefit:

Benefit: You can treat the hand crossbow as an
off-hand weapon, and you can reload it one-handed
as a free action. When you score a critical hit and
have a hand crossbow in your off hand, you can make
a ranged basic attack with that weapon.

Obviously I replace hand crossbow with revolver. And I already wield two of them to begin with. Still worth it?

Also, here's the stats for the Revolver:

Revolver
Type - Military Ranged, One-Handed
Group - Ironbow
Proficiency - +3
Damage - 1d8
Range - 15/30
Price - 35 gp
Weight - 2 lbs
Properties -
Clip d6
Unreliable 2
Load Minor


Effectively, it's a ranged rapier that jams on a attack roll of 2. And I have to roll a d6 everytime I use this gun for a power. If it's a 1, I have to reload it.

LibraryOgre
2009-09-22, 04:26 PM
I'd say that two-fisted shooter is feasible with a revolver, but not with black-powder arms.

FoE
2009-09-22, 04:26 PM
Well here's Two-Fisted Shooter's Benefit:

Benefit: You can treat the hand crossbow as an
off-hand weapon, and you can reload it one-handed
as a free action. When you score a critical hit and
have a hand crossbow in your off hand, you can make
a ranged basic attack with that weapon.

If you're determined to go into combat with two guns, then yes. Most definitely.

DragonBaneDM
2009-09-22, 04:33 PM
If you're determined to go into combat with two guns, then yes. Most definitely.

Well, not all the time, friend. See, I wanted to take the archery ranger and make him more interesting by changing up which weapons he uses once in awhile.

So my character basically has 4 modes:

Sniper

Using my Rifle, and later the Sniper that my DM created, I attack at a range at the outset of most battles.


Commando

This mode focuses around me using my Shotgun, which has a cool effect that adds more damage onto nearby enemies of my target. Also, drawing OAs to get the fighter Combat Challenge attacks, and especially using Spitting Cobra Stance, or as I call that power, Boarder's lament.


Rogue

Bust out my pistol(s) and go for some Sneak attack damage as well as crit fishing.


Melee

Draw me cutlasses if absolutely necessary.


So overall what Two Fister would do is make my character more versatile. Which I like.