Why does Xykon have super strength?

[Sewblon]

I know that Liches don't get fatigued, but they don't get racial strength bonuses either, so why was Xykon able to hit Vaarsuvius with a slab of stone larger than him? Does he have a magic item that enhances his strength?

Most of Xykon's high level spells seem to be either Necromancy or Evocation, so he has to use physical force when those two types of spells don't suffice. But when I read SOD I interpreted him as having average strength and above average dexterity. But since he became a lich his strength seems to be 18 at least. I always thought he commandeered a tower in Azure City that was made of regular stone.


The way I look at it, he's not technically stronger but he also can't get tired. He can much more easily put on a vice grip and such. With the giant rock? Rule of cule. I see how effectively unlimited stamina makes putting on a vice grip easier. But if he isn't technically any stronger than an average human, shouldn't he have pulled his own arms off when he tried to lift a slab of stone presumably heavier than him?


I'd say even likely, given the scene in SoD where
he beat Fyron to death with a blunt instrument pre-lichdom. Bludgeoning an old wizard to death with an improvised weapon probably only takes strength and dexterity scores in the 10 to 13 range. Since he became a lich he threw Right-eye through a window with one hand, swung a slab of stone larger than himself over his head and smashed through the wall of his tower.

[SadisticFishing]

The way I look at it, he's not technically stronger but he also can't get tired. He can much more easily put on a vice grip and such. With the giant rock? Rule of cule.

[MReav]

Alternatively, he's got Telekinesis (Xykon has one unknown 5th level spell).

[DBJack]

This was a tower made of magic. It's been theorized on similar discussions that the masonry wasn't actually stone, but some kind of lighter magical material or made of bone or something. Also for the rule of cool

[Shale]

Xykon is an epic-level spellcaster who crafts magic items for fun, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if he had something with a large bonus to strength on his person.

[Thanatosia]

Yup, Xykon likes to Spend 8 hours every day making magic items (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html), and the only reason he stops at 8 is because the rules of D&D stop him from spending more. With how long he's been around, non-stop magic item production has got to have him dripping with various bonuses of all sorts of types.

[Martok]

Xykon is an epic-level spellcaster who crafts magic items for fun, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if he had something with a large bonus to strength on his person.
While undoubtedly, the "Rule of Cool" is the real reason why, I too would guess Xykon simply possesses a magic item granting a large strength bonus.

[Haven]

Similar incidents in Start of Darkness (including one right after he became a lich, in a situation where he wouldn't have had access to any strength-boosting items) lead me to conclude that liches just get super-strength in this setting for some reason. Just some random house rule like halflings having scent.

[Lissou]

He took the Badass Villain feat.

[SadisticFishing]

Then again, maybe he just rolled really well for strength.

It's entirely plausible.

[Arutema]

Then again, maybe he just rolled really well for strength.

It's entirely plausible.

I'd say even likely, given the scene in SoD where
he beat Fyron to death with a blunt instrument pre-lichdom.

[Haven]

I'd say even likely, given the scene in SoD where
he beat Fyron to death with a blunt instrument pre-lichdom.

He might have started out with it, but I think some of his feats (like imitating the Kool-Aid Man) surpass human strength. Though I guess that might be some kind of spell.

Actually, maybe the paralyzing touch is ruled as increasing his bare-handed strength since it is an unarmed attack.

[Aldrakan]

Xykon seems to enjoy being stronger than the people around him, and quite possibly he wants to hold onto whatever human pleasures he's got left.
I'd assume an at least decent natural strength score, now enhanced with magic.

[Herald Alberich]

Actually, maybe the paralyzing touch counts as increasing his bare-handed strength since it is an unarmed attack.

An unarmed touch attack, for which Strength doesn't matter (as I understand the rules).

[David Argall]

The whole scene is completely plot-and/or cool-ruled. It looked neat having Xykon toss that rock on V, and so he could do it, without explanation and without any further ramification. Later the plot called for O-Chul and V to escape long enough to play with the phylactery, and so Xykon can't hurt them with a 9th level spell. And then we have...
No, you can not draw any conclusions from anything that happens in the scene.

[dps]

I see how effectively unlimited stamina makes putting on a vice grip easier. But if he isn't technically any stronger than an average human, shouldn't he have pulled his own arms off when he tried to lift a slab of stone presumably heavier than him?

In the real world, part of what limits how heavy an object we can lift is pain. Most people don't ever lift anything nearly as heavy as what they actually have the strength to lift, because if would hurt. A LOT. But a lich doesn't feel pain, so Xykon doesn't have that limitation.

Unfortunately, using a real world explanation doesn't work, because then we have to say that he couldn't lift anything, because he doesn't have any muscles at all....

:smallbiggrin:

[Conuly]

WHY does he have super strength? Because super strength is really nifty. Wouldn't YOU have super strength if you could?

How he has it, I don't know. I leave that sort of thing up to the D&D geeks who know what they're talking about to argue over. If lichs aren't super strong he presumably has some sort of magical thing that makes him strong or a spell or something, I figure.

[factotum]

|
Unfortunately, using a real world explanation doesn't work, because then we have to say that he couldn't lift anything, because he doesn't have any muscles at all....


But you can use a D&D explanation and say that his muscles have been replaced with magical negative energy, so there's nothing to say that he COULDN'T be stronger. I always found it a bit odd that being stripped of all your living flesh and being turned into a magically-animated skeleton WOULDN'T change your physical stats, to be honest. (Yes, I know you go to d12 hit dice and lose your Con score, but you'd expect your strength and agility to be different too!).

[FoE]

Similar incidents in Start of Darkness (including one right after he became a lich, in a situation where he wouldn't have had access to any strength-boosting items) lead me to conclude that liches just get super-strength in this setting for some reason.

That's my thinking. He couldn't have crafted any magic items while down in the hole, and yet he was able to ...

... snap Lirian's neck like a twig and throw Right-Eye through a window with one hand ...

... in Start of Darkness.

Why shouldn't liches be super-strong? I mean, they don't have muscles that allow them to move, so why can't the negative energy powering the lich also make them hella strong?

[Hardcore]

You miss an equal interesting question; how could Varsuuvius have survived being smashed by a rock that take extra-human strength to lift? Sure he got bruised, we could see that, but a hit like that should have given him massive internals bleeding. And broken bones!

[Tundar]

You miss an equal interesting question; how could Varsuuvius have survived being smashed by a rock that take extra-human strength to lift? Sure he got bruised, we could see that, but a hit like that should have given him massive internals bleeding. And broken bones!

Again, D&D rules are in play. If you fall 30 ft you can be lucky and only take 3 points of damage and walk away from it as if nothing happened.
Don't try this at home!

[spargel]

There's plenty of things Xykon shouldn't be able to do. Why can he talk but not laugh?

[Trixie]

Um, he can laugh just fine. From where that come from? :smallconfused:

[Ancalagon]

Xykon might have a naturual Str above average, around 14ish. If he's carrying a +4 or even +6 item (really not beyond his level) he'd be around 18 to 20 without any problems.

[Nerdanel]

I think being a lich has nothing to do with it. Based on SoD it very much looks like he started with a high value.

SoD:
He was already in the OLD age category with its associated strength penalties when he clubbed Fyron to death.


I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Xykon started with 18 in strength and a high dex to go with it.

SoD:
SoD suggests Xykon had a high initiative that was reduced by aging penalties.


It would be nice and symmetrical too if it turned out Roy had the stats to be a caster and became a fighter instead while Xykon had the stats to be a fighter and became a caster intead.

[Lamech]

There is a good chance that he or Redcloak had corspecrafter, which would give hiim +4 str.

[Ancalagon]

I assume as well that Xykon has high charisma and decent body-stats.

He could have started with Str/Dex 14ish, Cha 18ish, Con 10 to 14ish, given that he has non-impressive Int and Wis, that seems actually possible.

What I find interesting: Due to being a lich, he'd "lose" the negative effects of age for his body-attributes, but could keep the mental benefits.

[Querzis]

That's my thinking. He couldn't have crafted any magic items while down in the hole, and yet he was able to ...

... snap Lirian's neck like a twig and throw Right-Eye through a window with one hand ...

... in Start of Darkness.

Why shouldn't liches be super-strong? I mean, they don't have muscles that allow them to move, so why can't the negative energy powering the lich also make them hella strong?

Like Nerdanel, I dont think it got anything to do with being a lich. Xykon is just really strong, he showed quite a few feats of strength even before being a lich. He most likely got a few buff or a few magic items to enhance it even further now too. I dont see whats so weird about Xykon having a good strength score to begin with. He lived alone for so long and he wasnt always epic level, so he obviously had to use his muscles often (hell, look at how often he used them in SoD).

[Fluffles]

You miss an equal interesting question; how could Varsuuvius have survived being smashed by a rock that take extra-human strength to lift? Sure he got bruised, we could see that, but a hit like that should have given him massive internals bleeding. And broken bones!

1d6/200lbs. Var is around level 12~14ish, with her measly d4 HD, low con, and the bonus of the soulmelds, she'd survive that rock easily.


And I don't know of any D&D system that has rules for broken bones :P

[73 Bits of Lint]

He was flying at the time. For some reason, flying seems to give people (and demons and skeletons and fairy-types) in OotS an unlimited carrying capacity.

See: Sabine carrying Thog and Nale, Celia hefting an armored Roy, etc.

[Nimrod's Son]

Um, he can laugh just fine. From where that come from? :smallconfused:
From here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html).

But to be fair, it's just evil laughter Xykon has trouble with. He still enjoys his slapstick (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html).

[theinsulabot]

The whole scene is completely plot-and/or cool-ruled. It looked neat having Xykon toss that rock on V, and so he could do it, without explanation and without any further ramification. Later the plot called for O-Chul and V to escape long enough to play with the phylactery, and so Xykon can't hurt them with a 9th level spell. And then we have...
No, you can not draw any conclusions from anything that happens in the scene.

xykons moderately dodge-able meteor swarm

:xykon: why did i invent that?

[Shale]

Meteor Swarm seems to work differently in OotS in general. Has it ever had anything close to a 40-foot radius of effect?

[ZeroNumerous]

Meteor Swarm seems to work differently in OotS in general. Has it ever had anything close to a 40-foot radius of effect?

Blew up a dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html).

[Shale]

Which is, using Roy's height as a reference, maybe 14 feet long.

[theinsulabot]

Which is, using Roy's height as a reference, maybe 14 feet long.

blew it up good though

[Shale]

Oh, yeah, the damage is there. It's the area of effect (and consequent guaranteed damage if you're in the same ZIP code as one) that seems to have gotten toned down.

[Haven]

Like Nerdanel, I dont think it got anything to do with being a lich. Xykon is just really strong, he showed quite a few feats of strength even before being a lich. He most likely got a few buff or a few magic items to enhance it even further now too. I dont see whats so weird about Xykon having a good strength score to begin with. He lived alone for so long and he wasnt always epic level, so he obviously had to use his muscles often (hell, look at how often he used them in SoD).

The most he did pre-lichhood was beat an aging wizard to death with an improvised weapon after a protracted magical duel. That doesn't require that great a strength score. Post-lich, he did, well, all that stuff that's been brought up--and in a place where he wouldn't have had access to magic items.

[NerfTW]

While undoubtedly, the "Rule of Cool" is the real reason why, I too would guess Xykon simply possesses a magic item granting a large strength bonus.

The "rule of cool" is not a reason for doing anything, unless you're a talentless hack. No matter what stupid wiki's say.

[Ancalagon]

Well, the Rule of Cool actually only applies when what is done is actually cool.

If some talentless hack uses it all the time, then what happens will stop being cool, therefore, the Rule of Cool isn't fulfilled.

[Spiryt]

SoD:
He was already in the OLD age category with its associated strength penalties when he clubbed Fyron to death.



But he clubbed him to death with what (and was Fyron defending himself)? If with phone book, then it possibly could be good strenght (or rather aiming), but if it was at least half of brick then it really doesn't take much strenght to beat old man to death.

[Shale]

He used a Wizzie award. If they're like real-world award statues, they're fairly substantial. Against a career single-class wizard with age penalties to Con, that wouldn't take too much strength. Xykon wasn't exactly a 98-pound weakling as a human, but he didn't have to be superhuman for that.

[Spiryt]

He used a Wizzie award. If they're like real-world award statues, they're fairly substantial. Against a career single-class wizard with age penalties to Con, that wouldn't take too much strength. Xykon wasn't exactly a 98-pound weakling as a human, but he didn't have to be superhuman for that.

Indeed, if award was from some standard statue metal like gold, bronze, or even stone, then with a bit of aiming and pinned victim it really would be doable even for weak human...)

[Zolkabro]

Master Fyron was a spellcaster. Most spellcasters have pretty low CON and STR. And as Spiryt said, the statue would be stone, or a strong metal. It wouldn't take much to whack him to death.

I never thought the tower was made of stone. I kind of imagined it as a white, slimy, creepy kind of material. After all, it was "Wrenched through the ground with Xykon's pure evil power." So that slab, Even V could have thrown.
And even if it did weigh a ton, he could have just pushed it with hardly any effort onto V.

And when he was strangling V, he specifically said he had exceptional strength. So while that sort of murders my other points, it still needs to be considered.

[Trobby]

I'm going to have to second the "He's probably wearing strength-enhancing equipment" guess here. Think about how much higher his touch attack is with a strength bonus high enough to lift a boulder above his head.

But hold on for a moment, let's take a look at the panel where Xykon is "lifting a boulder big enough to crush V".

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html

Notice how Xykon is basically pushing that Boulder towards V? And remember, this is a crumbling tower of ruin. It's entirely possible that Xykon just pushed loose a fairly substantial slab of stone, and guided it roughly onto V's back.

So fairly strong, sure, but not super-strong.

*Partly ninja'd, but still relevant post.

[NerfTW]

No, the speed lines clearly show an arc. He swung it over his head.

[Spiryt]

Good call!

It definetly makes perfect sense that way.

Dunno about "crumbling tower of ruin" (it looks pretty solid), but V provided some loose wall parts him/herself in the vey previous strip.

[Trobby]

No, the speed lines clearly show an arc. He swung it over his head.

It's an arc that reaches off-panel and above his head. It's possible that the stone slab was hanging just above Xykon, and he simply pulled it out and pushed it towards V.

[Optimystik]

An unarmed touch attack, for which Strength doesn't matter (as I understand the rules).

Strength absolutely affects Touch Attacks. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm) The difference between TAs and regular attacks lies entirely in the target, not the attacker. (Specifically, the type of AC bonuses they are relying on.)

I assume the logic has something to do with strength allowing you to swing your hand/tentacle/other appendage faster, rather than with Dexterity's greater precision, thus making your touch more difficult to evade. The greater force also allows the attacker to penetrate deflection and repulsion effects.

[Herald Alberich]

Strength absolutely affects Touch Attacks. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm) The difference between TAs and regular attacks lies entirely in the target, not the attacker. (Specifically, the type of AC bonuses they are relying on.)

I assume the logic has something to do with strength allowing you to swing your hand/tentacle/other appendage faster, rather than with Dexterity's greater precision, thus making your touch more difficult to evade. The greater force also allows the attacker to penetrate deflection and repulsion effects.

Ah, ok, thanks.

[hamishspence]

it is a bit of an abstraction- strength seems to make melee attacks more accurate- its not just a case of punching through layers of protection.

Take several targets ranging from Large to Tiny, with the only variable being size, and the stronger person of the same level will be better at hitting the smaller targets than the weaker person.

If you are using stationary objects, the "harder to evade" logic for strength has this problem to explain.

Odd, but thats D&D rules for you.

[Spiryt]

I always just assumed that one must usually squezze/grab/twist flesh* to make the powers work, or at least out push/clinch the person to touch/punch belly, eyes region (something 'vital') - just touching/pating someone's palm like in Tag game seem a bit lame...

But at least in OotS it seems that mere touch is sufficient.

* Of course, twist teory is probably rubbish seeing how armor or even shield doesn't wor for touch AC - but still I assumed that securing the hold for a little while is necessary, regardless of grabed surface.

[hamishspence]

You can make unarmed touch attacks against anything- even objects (not all powers that use unarmed touch attacks work on objects though).

[Spiryt]

Noone will roll an attack roll against object though - at least if object is immobile, if it's moving, this makes another story.

[Querzis]

He used a Wizzie award. If they're like real-world award statues, they're fairly substantial. Against a career single-class wizard with age penalties to Con, that wouldn't take too much strength. Xykon wasn't exactly a 98-pound weakling as a human, but he didn't have to be superhuman for that.


The most he did pre-lichhood was beat an aging wizard to death with an improvised weapon after a protracted magical duel. That doesn't require that great a strength score. Post-lich, he did, well, all that stuff that's been brought up--and in a place where he wouldn't have had access to magic items.


Indeed, if award was from some standard statue metal like gold, bronze, or even stone, then with a bit of aiming and pinned victim it really would be doable even for weak human...)

You're all looking at this from a real world perspective. Grappling and beating someone to death whos apparently higher level then you and wasnt that much hurt with an improvised weapons does require quite a bit of strength in D&D. And by the way, Xykon was also old, he already had STR penalty that most likely matched Fyron CON penalty so it doesnt change anything.