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Umael
2009-09-21, 11:40 PM
I figure that after the... lively... debate with Riffington in the Gender-bending thread, I thought I would start a thread about how to play a female PC for those guys out there who want to try (or who are looking for a few pointers).

Now mind you, this is only good for playing human females from a culture similar enough to modern Western civilization, so if you wanted to play a female with a mindset more typical of someone from the Italian Renaissance, you might be out of luck.

I figure that each post should be limited to one "suggestion" followed up by a "proof" and an explanation how to make due.

So, I'll start with #1:


On the average, females are physically smaller and weaker than males.

This is not sexism, but science - physically speaking, from an anthropological viewpoint, men have benefited more from being bigger and stronger - this is so that they made better hunters. Since a bigger and stronger woman would require more energy to survive, it did not make sense for them to evolve similarly.

This is only the average, mind you. I happen to be on the small and, well, puny side of the male average, and I have been physically picked up by women and tossed around. I have also known some women to be physically capable of kicking the **** out of people, male or female, with just their bare hands.

So what does it mean to be part of the (*firmly place tongue in cheek*) "weaker" sex?

Well, first of all, women, by and large, are not expected to do the heavy lifting. Yes, some women can pick up heavy things, but usually who do people ask to pick up the big stuff? Men.

(Mind you, it is not like people go around saying, "we need to find some men to help us move this furniture." It is more like they say, "we need to get our friends to help us move." When time comes to move the big things, the strongest people there do the moving - and that usually will be the men.)

There is a culture for men to excel, especially in athletic feats, and especially when it comes to feats of strength. Women do not have this as intensely (although they still have it). How women in general react to this is really something that I am far from qualified to say. What I can say is that many women tend to simply rely on the men to handle things of a strength-related nature. Others might be more interested in manipulating men to do their bidding*.

*
(Guys wanting to play the female seductress, beware! That archetype is far, far overplayed and quite rare, for good reason!)

Some are interested in competing with men though.

When playing a human PC, you are just as strong when you are playing a female as when you are playing a male. Good thing too. But if the average woman is weaker than the average man, how does your PC think about her strength?

Well, the frenzied berserker is just as strong as any man, and she's got the sword-strike to prove it (take a look at the picture - you know what I mean). Beating the men at "their own game" might make some people think you are trying to go butch.

Heh.

Look up Hida O-Ushi from Legends of the Five Rings. Definitely a woman, definitely not butch.

Realistically, a woman who develops her physical strength, particularly in her upper body, loses some of her definition to her breasts. Her period is delayed. She becomes "less" of a woman, becoming butch. Ember, anyone?

From Aliens:
Hudson: Hey Vasquez, have you ever been mistaken for a man?
Vasquez: No. Have you?


The idea of losing her femininity is not a horror too terrible to contemplate, but it is something with which a woman who tries to develop her physical strength must come to grips.

Other women who go into physical combat prefer the lithe, dexterous fighter. If strength is supposed to be the man's domain, agility and grace must be the woman's domain. The fact that some men (like myself) do quite well when it comes to agility and grace debunks this idea, but you are still more likely to see the female sword-dancer than the female hulking warrior.

Again, not saying that you can't play a female hulking warrior, just that if you do, your PC is going to probably come across as (justifiably) "butch".

Of course, you can always go with other purposes. Just because strength is not your typical strong point for your gender doesn't mean that you can't make a good PC. Rogues do not rely heavily on strength, nor do wizards or druids. Clerics are more likely to have a high Wisdom, possibly followed by a high Constitution, and THEN the Strength score, so that works too.

Now to get into your female PC's mind:

I cannot tell you how your PC should think, but I believe that you should spend a little time thinking about strength in general, the notion of women being the "weaker" sex, and how your PC fares to other women when it comes to strength.

You might be trying to beat the men at their own game. You might be willing to let the men do all the hard work. You might really give it a second thought. You might be disgusted with other women who buy into the notion of having men do the work, when women are just as capable (or at least, you think they should be).

In any case, it is your character and you need to consider these things.

A final word or two for the unwise DM:

Do NOT, for the love of your man-bits, decide to "bring an element of realism" to your campaign by assigning all female humans a -2 penalty to their Strength scores.

From a "realistic" viewpoint, women being weaker than men means that the average woman is weaker than the average man, but probably not by two points.

From a gaming viewpoint, women are much less likely to be hulking brutes than men are, but that doesn't mean you should be handicapping them by imposing a penalty to their creativity by including a mechanical effect that is quite unnecessary.


Furthermore, if you are going to penalize human women in your world by giving them -2 to Strength, you should give them a bonus to equalize things.

Women have a long history of having to manipulate men to get what they want - not their fault, men have held women as second-class citizens for centuries upon centuries. As they say, well-behaved women don't make history. To reflect this, I suggest giving women +2 Charisma. I also suggest you don't mention my name.

But a tad more seriously, +2 Charisma means that human females will be natural bards. This makes sense, as female performers tend to be a tad more popular than male performers (look at the fashion industry - men have the same style, suit and tie, or maybe a tux, but female models get a lot more choices, and not just with dresses).

A bonus to Charisma also means that human females are natural sorceresses. This makes sense too, but that's because they usually aren't called sorceresses.

If you didn't get what I mean, go here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEalL-toaPI) and go to about 6:15

Random832
2009-09-21, 11:45 PM
So, I'll start with #1:


On the average, females are physically smaller and weaker than males.



Call it #0, since true or not it's irrelevant in a system where every player character is far above average and no mechanical penalties are assigned. It's got absolutely nothing to do with RPGs.

Wait... I see you dignified the idea of ad-hoc mechanical penalties with a response. *facepalm* That second nested spoiler was really unnecessary.

Katana_Geldar
2009-09-21, 11:48 PM
As a female, I can also say that women generally like to talk A LOT more than men. We chat, overanalyse, agonise and try to over think and over think again. Check out that book "He's Just Not That Into You" for the lengths that we can go to.

Coidzor
2009-09-21, 11:49 PM
Ahh... Half Orc Brabarians.

Dracons
2009-09-21, 11:49 PM
Indeed. Your basing real world history and gender, with a FICTIONAL game setting, where most of them, men and woman are equal in it. Only in some countries in said settings, are woman weaker, and its pointed out.

taltamir
2009-09-21, 11:50 PM
you seem to focus entirely about women being, on average, weaker then men...

Thats all nice and good if you are a DM trying to RP an average peasant woman...

But by definition a female PC is anything BUT avarage. She is a HERO, a person far beyond average. She could be tough, she could see it as an insult to her strength to let someone do the lifting for her. etc...

If you want to play a woman who is a warrior of any kind, look at professional female wrestlers / body builders / boxers / martial artists for your inspiration. You will find IRL they are much greater than you think.

And as for manipulation... again, a subset of women do that, they don't get a college degree, don't develop a talent, just find a rich man, marry, and live off of him.
But many women do not. ESPECIALLY in western civilization on which you supposedly base it... look for women doctors, lawyers, and PHD holders to find out how a "wizard" or other cerebral type woman would act. Again completely different than the stereotypes you use.

Katana_Geldar
2009-09-21, 11:53 PM
You know how women manipulate men? I'll probably be breaking "the code" here. It's letting the men think they are in charge. The best line about this I heard in the film "My Big Fat Greek Wedding".

Here's another way (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0129.html)

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-21, 11:54 PM
How women act in real world societies would be completely different from how they would act in a fictionalized world with vastly different values from what we ever had, and where magic is commonplace and dragons swoop in to roast people every other weekend.

Also, in the real world, people evolved. In DnD, they were created. The evolutionary arguments for women's physical attributes go out the window due to that.

Alteran
2009-09-21, 11:55 PM
Call it #0, since true or not it's irrelevant in a system where every player character is far above average and no mechanical penalties are assigned. It's got absolutely nothing to do with RPGs.


It's relevant in a roleplaying sense. Your female character may not be weaker than average, but for the world at large it's usually safe to assume that women and men keep their physical differences. This isn't reflected in the PC creation rules for a number of reasons (accusations of sexism, restricting character choices, and more), but that doesn't mean it's not still true for non-PCs.

His advice is perfectly valid for somebody looking to roleplay a female character in a world with normal human(oid race)s.

taltamir
2009-09-21, 11:56 PM
How women act in real world societies would be completely different from how they would act in a fictionalized world with vastly different values from what we ever had, and where magic is commonplace and dragons swoop in to roast people every other weekend.

Also, in the real world, people evolved. In DnD, they were created. The evolutionary arguments for women's physical attributes go out the window due to that.

especially if they are a member of a non human race... who is magical, maybe lives hundreds of years, also was created by gods, and can somehow breed with humans despite being supposedly different creatures...

Your 300 year old she elf is not gonna have the mindset of a 20 year old american woman.

taltamir
2009-09-21, 11:58 PM
It's relevant in a roleplaying sense. Your female character may not be weaker than average, but for the world at large it's usually safe to assume that women and men keep their physical differences. This isn't reflected in the PC creation rules for a number of reasons (accusations of sexism, restricting character choices, and more), but that doesn't mean it's not still true for non-PCs.

His advice is perfectly valid for somebody looking to roleplay a female character in a world with normal human(oid race)s.

which is a perfectly valid reason for someone TO OFFER to carry her bags for her... it is no reason to have her say yes in a demure voice, wear a dress, ride with both legs on one side of the horse, and bat her extra long eyelashes while blushing at the farmer boy who picked up her bags for her.

She is a full plate master of death and destruction, or a 300 year old non human with the power to bend the rules of reality, or a swift master of "martial arts" which include immortality and immunity to falling off a cliff...

ericgrau
2009-09-22, 12:13 AM
Ugh, stereotypes that we already know (and already know aren't totally true). Even if you're saying they usually don't hold, you're still focusing on them.

I'd say things like physical strength have little build relevance, since the player will be strong if he wants to and not if he's not. As suggested one could focus more on RPing things like the modern tendency to be chatty and social. Assuming everyone acts with modern tendencies and that this character also fits that tendency.

Kylarra
2009-09-22, 12:13 AM
especially if they are a member of a non human race... who is magical, maybe lives hundreds of years, also was created by gods, and can somehow breed with humans despite being supposedly different creatures...

Your 300 year old she elf is not gonna have the mindset of a 20 year old american woman.Thankfully the OP never even tried to say that? :smallconfused:


Now mind you, this is only good for playing human females from a culture similar enough to modern Western civilization, so if you wanted to play a female with a mindset more typical of someone from the Italian Renaissance, you might be out of luck.

ondonaflash
2009-09-22, 12:14 AM
No, wait, I see what he's saying. In a world where the average individual fills certain roles people expect every example of this demographic to fill the same role. A player needs to develop a character to reflect that.

In a world where it is well known that women are weaker than men everyone will treat a girl growing up like she's supposed to be weak. This will influence her development (in theory: see Nature vs. Nurture) as an individual and she'll usually develop along one of two paths: Conformity or Rebellion.

Mnymosene
2009-09-22, 12:19 AM
Riding sidesaddle, at least initially, wasn't due to ideas of women being fragile. Leaning that way allowed them to spin and ride at the same time. Making cloth takes a lot of time invested, thusly people worked at it as much as possible.

ericgrau
2009-09-22, 12:20 AM
No, wait, I see what he's saying. In a world where the average individual fills certain roles people expect every example of this demographic to fill the same role. A player needs to develop a character to reflect that.

In a world where it is well known that women are weaker than men everyone will treat a girl growing up like she's supposed to be weak. This will influence her development (in theory: see Nature vs. Nurture) as an individual and she'll usually develop along one of two paths: Conformity or Rebellion.

There are also concrete "nature" reasons for such, like hormones. But they can fight it. My point was more to focus on how you'd RP. 90% of people aren't going to be spending their time thinking about how they are or aren't physically weaker. Think more about how you'd talk with others, greet, introduce, etc. When you fight, maybe some of that personality affects your style.

Umael
2009-09-22, 12:20 AM
#2 The difference between maternal and paternal.


Like always, there are individuals who defy and deny this, but in this case, the average human woman has a maternal streak in her and the average man has a paternal streak. What this means is that a man will seek to protect what he considers his from external threats, but a woman will seek to protect what she considers hers from internal threats.

A predator? External threat, let the man handle it.
Making sure that a child is loved? Internal threat, a woman does that better.

Again, this is a GROSS generalization, because you will find some women who hate kids and some men who adore them. But most children, when they are crying in the night, be it from a wet diaper or a bad dream, seek out their mothers.

This is because the father only donated his seed, while the mother gave nine months. And then the baby is born and the mother nurses it.

In hunter-gather societies and some agricultural societies, the women would work in the fields with their babies strapped to their backs while the men went off on a hunt. The babies, and later on, toddlers, and then "proper" children, were close to the mothers, surrounded by other women. Since children include both male and female, the next generation would grow up with the mind set that that was the role that the women did. Similarly, the role of the men was to hunt the prey and defend the tribe.

The roles re-enforced behavior. If a baby cries, even a stranger's baby, the women react by wanting to fuss over it and make sure it is alright. The joke is that men can take down a raging bear, but don't know how to handle a screaming infant.

That's because it is socially anathema to deal with the baby the same way the men take care of a bear. Can't kill it, that would be very bad. Not supposed to run from it, that's also bad. It won't listen to reason, it doesn't know the sound of your voice very well - let the women handle it.

Again, I must stress, this is a cultural thing, very broadly speaking. There are plenty of capable men out there today who make excellent caregivers, just as there are all too many women out there who haven't a sympathetic bone in their body.

Again, so how does that effect your female PC?

Keeping in mind that individual experiences will overcome gender predispositions, a woman is likely to want to care for things that need care. This makes women more "touchy-feely", so they are more likely to cuddle things and fuss over them. Babies are a good example, but animals, especially fuzzy ones also count. Even when it comes to inanimate things, women are more likely to cuddle up with a fuzzy blanket than a man will.

(I'm sure someone else can do a better job of explaining the psychological reasoning behind this than I can.)

This maternal nature also makes women more in-tune with the feelings of others. Usually women are seen as having a greater sense of empathy than men are, meaning that they are quicker to pick up visual clues when someone is hurt or happy or what not.

Again, this is all a generalization. You can have a woman PC who is quite the cold-hearted ***** who just doesn't care, but even in this case, your PC is defined by having a lack of maternal instincts. Like the seductress, this archetype is a common one among guys who are trying to play women and don't know what they are doing. Usually a woman, even a hard-bitten warrior, will have a maternal instinct.

Put another way, yes, you can play the cold-hearted *****, but it is more realistic to play the mother lion (even if your PC isn't a mother) - tough as nails with everyone, but more than willing to take the time to be sweet with her cubs. And yes, without a doubt, may the gods have mercy if you come between the mother lion archetype and her cubs.

(As a sidenote, modeling a PC's mannerism and behavior on an animal, if done with a subtle touch, is a great way of expressing an interesting character. But that is a subject for another thread...)

((As another sidenote, there ARE women who are cold-hearted *****es. I know, I met one, a fellow gamer, who In- and Out-of-Character had no maternal instinct at all.))


***
It is getting late, but I will see about replying to a few of the comments.

Worira
2009-09-22, 12:29 AM
Uh, you're supposed to post them all at once.

taltamir
2009-09-22, 12:35 AM
Riding sidesaddle, at least initially, wasn't due to ideas of women being fragile. Leaning that way allowed them to spin and ride at the same time. Making cloth takes a lot of time invested, thusly people worked at it as much as possible.

I thought it was because it is "improper" of her to spread her legs over the horse... made extra difficult with her not being supposed to wear PANTS. (good luck sitting normally on a saddle in a skirt... and if it is short and loose enough, preventing it from showing your panties as it flaps in the wind)

ondonaflash
2009-09-22, 12:38 AM
Uh, you're supposed to post them all at once.

Dude, that would take forever.

Umael
2009-09-22, 12:45 AM
Random832 - Sorry if the second nested spoiler seemed a bit unneeded. I was trying to cover my bases.


Katana_Geldar - Yeah, that's a good point. But I figured that I would only have time to mention one or two differences before my bed time.


Dracons - You are absolutely right. D&D IS a fictional setting. But we are supposed to connect to it, a writing technique known as "having a place to hang your hat". All of what I said is complete open to interpretation by the various DMs and players - but most DMs and players come from a modern Western civilization (and are human), so they have a common reference point. It doesn't invalidate anything that I said, just puts it into context.


taltamir - I focused on the average woman because you need to have an idea of the average mindset, whatever that is, because you can go beyond that. By the way, thanks for pointing some good inspirations for female warriors. Those stereotypes I mentioned are just stereotypes, which I mentioned because a lot of guys starting out to play females play them... which leaves a bad taste in certain people's mouths.

Oh, and yes, I WOULD offer to carry that nice lady's bags for her.


Pharaoh's Fist - Waving your hand and saying "it's magic" doesn't help figure these things out, especially since there are more fantasy games, including low-magic settings, than just D&D. Break out of the paradigm, man.


ericgrau - Sorry about starting with strength. I figured that would be a simple and non-controversial way to open the thread.

And yes, I know these are stereotypes. Got to start somewhere.


Worira - :smalleek:

...like ondonaflash said, that would take forever.

Look, the point of this thread was to let everyone, not just me, talk about various things that guys wanting to play female PCs should keep in mind. I opened with strength because that is a minor, minor difference.

I have no wish to post everything at once.

I need to get to bed, man!

taltamir
2009-09-22, 12:48 AM
OP, you raise some interesting points in your second post, some of them even correct...

But:
1. Generally speaking the PC are not gonna have babies, and if so they are not gonna need this to tell them how to roleplay that (they should know already if they actually bother thinking the plan through)

2. the conclusion you draw are that women are more "nurturing" and deal with problems in "certain ways" again does not really apply to MODERN WESTERN society which you describe as a basis for your observation (much less to a medieval locked magic society). Women are really not like that IRL. You draw conclusions from a drawn out explanation about handling babies and bears, but when it comes right down to it, your final conclusions end up repeating old stereotypes are are hardly accurate. I have known many modern western women (get your head out of the gutter ;p) and none of them really fit the stereotypes repeated herein. But maybe I am just weird for knowing a disproportionate number of women who fit none of the stereotypes... Anyone else can chip in on that one?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-22, 12:53 AM
Pharaoh's Fist - Waving your hand and saying "it's magic" doesn't help figure these things out

Yes, yes it does.

Godskook
2009-09-22, 01:11 AM
Do NOT, for the love of your man-bits, decide to "bring an element of realism" to your campaign by assigning all female humans a -2 penalty to their Strength scores.

Considering the statistics I could bring to bear, if forced, my man-bits are rather safe.

Of course, I'd be giving them a +2 to Dex, to compliment that -2 strength if I did it(actually, I'd probably have each gender have a +1/-1, with men getting the bonus to strength, and women the bonus to dex).

(On the other hand, no amount of prodding will get me to alter mental scores based on gender. That's a hot-button issue that no amount of wild dragons could drag me into)

taltamir
2009-09-22, 01:18 AM
Of course, I'd be giving them a +2 to Dex, to compliment that -2 strength if I did it(actually, I'd probably have each gender have a +1/-1, with men getting the bonus to strength, and women the bonus to dex).
eh, terrible stereotype. They don't get extra dexterity or toughness (con). They gain the ability to give birth... which drains the calcium from their bones, messes up their insides, takes them out of commission for many months if they ARE pregnant, a risk of 1/50 to have extopic pregnancy (50% natural abortion which increases future chances of having another ectopic, 50% chance of dying from ruptured internal organs), and so on and so forth. They also have a "great" chances of getting cancer in their breasts or ovaries or uterus.

There are really no "benefits" other than 2 years longer average lifespan, and the ability to reproduce. Evolution is a bitch like that. That being said. "on average weaker" is really irrelevant for heroes... And you shouldn't have any "adjustment" for gender, ever. Because it sucks.

PS. did you know that female body builders menopause when their body fat drops below 12-14% (varies by woman, sometimes can be a little less).

Sillycomic
2009-09-22, 01:40 AM
I don't know. The +2 to charisma makes sense. Every single picture I have ever seen of women in D&D, they've always been super sexy and in slinky outfits that just barely clung to themselves. Come on, even their hair looks awesome. How do you have perfect hair after messing up a half giant? Only if you got some extra charisma lying around... that's how.


I keep trying to find female stereotypes, but I can't find anything worth showing on this site at the moment. Perhaps when I can search better tomorrow I will have something for you.

But, I think we should draw heavily from fiction for this. Since in essence we are trying to help create believable female characters. Where else does this happen but in fiction? Male writers have found believable and convincing female voices in movies, tv shows and books for years and years now.

For that, the three main stereotypes for females in fiction are: the virgin, the whore, and the nun.

At least these are the three that I remember. There might be more, or at the very least subsets of these three icons.

The virgin is the young innocent girl. She might be sexual, but if she is, she has no clue about it, and anything she does in this manner will be accidental. She is wide eyed and eager to learn just about anything.

The whore is an older version of the virgin. She is experienced. She is confident, she is sexy. She knows who she is and what she wants. This is where guys go wrong, and almost always play this girl. The problem is, the whore is a rare character...

Then again, we're all playing rare character, so can't really complain all that much.

The nun is a woman who has found a higher purpose. This doesn't necessarily need to be any sort of religion in the game, simply a cause will do. Even a female wizard bent on learning more magic can be a simple nun. She is too focused on her work and herself to worry about frivolous things such as men.


These are stereotypes that have nothing to do with physical strength or mental capacity. These are all women who live and breath in the world and want something out of it. In her lifetime a woman could play all three of these extremes, or live comfortably in a combination between them.



I think if you want to play a female in this campaign you should first ask yourself... "Why is she going out to kill things?" Then when you've successfully answered that question, ask yourself this... "Yes, but why is she choosing to do this, and not letting men do it for her?"


Once you answer both of those questions, you have a female character.

Sergeantbrother
2009-09-22, 01:43 AM
eh, terrible stereotype. They don't get extra dexterity or toughness (con). They gain the ability to give birth... which drains the calcium from their bones, messes up their insides, takes them out of commission for many months if they ARE pregnant, a risk of 1/50 to have extopic pregnancy (50% natural abortion which increases future chances of having another ectopic, 50% chance of dying from ruptured internal organs), and so on and so forth. They also have a "great" chances of getting cancer in their breasts or ovaries or uterus.

There are really no "benefits" other than 2 years longer average lifespan, and the ability to reproduce. Evolution is a bitch like that. That being said. "on average weaker" is really irrelevant for heroes... And you shouldn't have any "adjustment" for gender, ever. Because it sucks.

PS. did you know that female body builders menopause when their body fat drops below 12-14% (varies by woman, sometimes can be a little less).

I think that is a good argument against sex based attribute modifiers - because there is this idea that they have to be balanced within the context of D&D - which isn't how real life works. Women serve a vitally important role is continuing the human species - giving birth and nursing children - but that doesn't really give them any advantages when it comes to exploring dungeons or killing orcs. Then again, what the average woman is like doesn't matter nearly as much as what the exceptional woman - the PC in question - is like.

Really, seems a bit strange to focus on the strength difference when talking about role playing women. I mean, physical attributes play a relatively small part in somebody's personality. I would tend to say that for the differences between how many and women act and how they live, the difference that can be boiled down to D&D attributes is relatively small compared to other factors that are more important like childbirth and the division of labor required in pre-industrial societies.

Really, I think the more interesting issue would be fleshing out cultures within a fantasy setting and deciding what sort of values, traditions, and taboos regarding gender. In the D&D campaign that I am currently in, the DM lets the players design our own nations of origin and the culture there, meaning that the female players (or men with female characters, though we don't have one) can decide what sort of cultural attitudes they have about the roles of men and women based on how much they conform or rebel against their cultural origins.

taltamir
2009-09-22, 01:57 AM
I think that is a good argument against sex based attribute modifiers - because there is this idea that they have to be balanced within the context of D&D - which isn't how real life works. Women serve a vitally important role is continuing the human species - giving birth and nursing children - but that doesn't really give them any advantages when it comes to exploring dungeons or killing orcs.

Exactly... cardinal rule: "thau shalt not balance role playing bonuses with combat capability". Otherwise monk is the best class, since it makes you immune to aging... at the cost of sucking in combat situations.


But, I think we should draw heavily from fiction for this. Since in essence we are trying to help create believable female characters. Where else does this happen but in fiction? Male writers have found believable and convincing female voices in movies, tv shows and books for years and years now.

For that, the three main stereotypes for females in fiction are: the virgin, the whore, and the nun.

I, and anyone that I associate with, and most things that I read, thinks TV writers do a TERRIBLE job in portraying women and don't take them seriously. Even online comics and humor sites joke is that a super heroine is there to be saved by her male counterparts, or get raped (tragically common in marvel universe).

Dairun Cates
2009-09-22, 01:59 AM
For that, the three main stereotypes for females in fiction are: the virgin, the whore, and the nun.

The more traditional set is the mother, the maiden, and the crone (a set based in both literature and mythology).

Putting it as your triumverate tends to mash together the first and third category, while making the essential b---- an immediately sexual part. Of course, both categories are essentially suffocatingly restrictive and fail to cover any level of the full range of possible characterizations.

Either way, it's not too terribly important, but I just find "the virgin, the whore, and the nun" to be a little too extreme.

Ultimately though, I think the thought process of gender-bending a character is a bit weird. Heroes in a fantasy setting are generally heroes because they fit out of the social norm.

If we're going completely realistic here, a female hero is going to be inherently more "masculine" in order to be a martial hero of any kind. It's a necessary aggression in order to advance. There's nothing EXTREMELY different about a female character that wants revenge for her dead father and a male character that wants revenge for his dead father. The same kind of attitude and characterization is generally going to happen in this scenario. The only real differences are subtle ones such as potential love interests and maybe a slightly different method of handling some scenarios (such as maybe being a little more diplomatic instead of aggressive, but even some of the most interesting literary characters turn these stereotypes on their heads).

Really, I guess I'm saying motivation drives a character far more than sex. If you fight for revenge, you fight for revenge. If you fight for fame, you fight for fame. If you fight for love, you fight for love. The methods are the same. The personality just tends to change, and women have just as a wide variety as men. Characterize a female character how you want and just let the rest flow naturally. The only differences sex is generally going to make should either 1. Not come up in role-playing or 2. Are incredibly subtle and not blatant.

As long as you're not looking at the guy next to you at the table and exclaiming "hey dude. I've got boobs! *high five*", you're probably doing fine.

Edit: And yes, I'm of the school that ability score differences in sexes don't matter. If you want stark realism, why are you playing a system where human beings routinely foil the plots of gods, travel multiple plains, tear time-space asunder, and fight green midgets.

taltamir
2009-09-22, 02:04 AM
there is a very good chance that your female PC with a male player is gonna be the nun... because no way in hell will your DM roleplay those sexual interactions (and hopefully you don't WANT to either).

Randel
2009-09-22, 02:30 AM
My answers on how to play as a female PC:

1). choose some sort of character archetype... like master crimminal, hot-blooded fighter, or twisted master of the arcane arts.

2). role play that

3). remember not to hit on female characters (because your character is female) and don't hit on male characters (because you are male), instead focus on hitting on monsters... with a sword... to kill them.

4). Every second you spend trying to act 'like a female' is a second that you aren't killing stuff, acquiring loot, or destroying the economy of the local civilization (which may or may not be patriarchal, if it is patriarchal and they try treating you as a second class citizen then remind them that you kill things for a living).

5). The only time you should mention your gender is on the rare cases you have to use yourself as bait to lure dragons into traps (and in this case make sure you know how to defend yourself against said dragon). Never try using your feminine wiles to seduce enemies unless you plan to severely injure them in the immediate future.

Frosty
2009-09-22, 02:30 AM
I always say: Play your female PC as a person who dreams, hopes, prays, does, celebrates, mourns, and cries. Play your female PC as someone who has (internally) consistent goals, dreams, objectives, and desires. Play your female PC as someone with realistic flaws and strengths.

Do all of that before you play your female PC for its "femaleness" and you will have a kickass, well-presented female PC.

AslanCross
2009-09-22, 02:43 AM
I've played a female artificer before. While she had 12 Strength, she carried around a lot of gear, until she met the Warforged in the party. (the party was gimped due to nobody wanting to play a caster; I compromised by playing an artificer in addition to the warforged.)

She was chatty, sometimes overbearing, easily-excitable, and liked big explosions.
...frankly, I don't think she would've been very different if she were male.

quicker_comment
2009-09-22, 02:44 AM
I've never even heard that as a distinction between "maternal" and "paternal" before, and I don't think it's reflected in nature. Among bears, for instance, it's fairly well known that mothers will behave aggressively to protect their cubs (from humans, "external threats").

Honestly, this thread like a supremely bad idea. For people who really do want tips, here's my own version:

How to play a female PC if you are male.

Behave like a human -- not a human with your own personality, but another human with a personality you can understand and to some degree empathize with. Don't think of your character as some sort of strange, exotic animal that you can best understand by learning biological factoids from popular science magazines.

This also works as my list of tips for "how to play a male character if you are female", "how to play a female character if you are female", and "how to play a male character if you are male". It won't always be convincing -- I've never seen a roleplayer that was 100% convincing even within their own gender and with a human character. Emulating another personality is hard. However, I think it'll work better than the OP's list, which seems to be encouraging people to basically model their characters after stereotypes and pop psychology.

Khanderas
2009-09-22, 03:38 AM
I think the OP is going at it from the wrong angle.

In RP I think the intresting part, when it comes to gender anyway, is the expectations from society, not if the character has brests or not. The expectations and taboos given to each gender (not only the female side, mind you).

Now, it goes without saying that regardless of societys views any PC is special/heroic and will not peacefully sit down and shut up without a fight. He/she is not normal and shall not have any mechanical plusses or minuses.

The settings society might look down on womenkind to pick up swords or magic and fight, the question isnt if the female PC will do so, but what ramifications will she face ?
Will people be suspicious of her ? If so, both genders or mostly one ? (could very well be that the "normal" women distrusts her more then the "normal" men).
Will she have an easier time cooperating with other women and a harder time with men, due to "women's buissness" and "men's buissness" ? (see Wheel of Time as an example. Men and women there tend to find the other side confusing, condecending and uncooperative in comparason to their own gender).

And finally how does she react to societies reactions ?
If they for example assume she is not the group leader and talk to one of the males in the group, does she take it in stride, or even anticipates it and let him do the negotiations from the start... or give a lecture with fist-in-the-face style ?

taltamir
2009-09-22, 03:49 AM
How to play a female PC if you are male.

Behave like a human -- not a human with your own personality, but another human with a personality you can understand and to some degree empathize with. Don't think of your character as some sort of strange, exotic animal that you can best understand by learning biological factoids from popular science magazines.


YES! You win a cookie (so does Frosty).

A woman is not a mythical being sent forth from the heavens to be a reward for the righteous. A woman is a human being who happens to have a uterus. She is not an angel, she is not a saint, she is certainly not a slab of meat. Don't try to win her, don't try to earn her, don't assume that she is without fault and wickedness. An equal amount of women are jerks, or selfish, or cowards, as there are men who are those same things.

Fiery Diamond
2009-09-22, 04:22 AM
Thank you, quick reply. You are correct. I just read the other thread...*gags*

Females and males, on the individual level, are not inherently different at all. The idea presented in this thread of thinking about how you fit into the culture of the world is the only valid point worth considering.

Catch
2009-09-22, 07:55 AM
Let's see... we've got the strength penalty (and the charisma bonus for the "temptress"), the "sexy rogue", the "butch" barbarian who's insecure about her late period and a discourse on how "silly girls are emotional."

Yep, I'm insulted. And I'm not even female. Cue the sigh face. :smallsigh:

Discussions on how to "accurately" roleplay female characters always turn to stereotypes because frankly, many dice-jockeys derive their opinions on the female gender from media, rather than personal experience. It's a touchy, rude sort of snark, but sometimes the question begs itself - Have some of you actually interacted with a woman before? Mothers and baristas don't count.

A few other posters have said it before me, *nod* but women aren't obtuse sociological paradoxes or rare beasts begging for scrutiny. D&D goes out of its way to explain that there's no physical or social difference between men and women apart from the bits, and that's where you ought to start when considering roleplaying the opposite gender. Trying to delve into the female psyche with awkwardly-Freudian psychoanalysis can make your roleplaying horribly overdone, especially when you're constantly reminding the other players that you're a female who likes men and has boobs and is a girl (with feelings.)

"Hey Kara, let's finish off these orcs, eh?"
"I AM HAVING AN EMOTIONAL MOMENT. FEAR MY PERIOD!"

It's almost as bad as the horde of sexy elf vixens in chainmail bikinis.

Personally, most of my characters are female, and I've never felt awkward about this, nor do my regular roleplaying groups mind at all. The reason - apart from being a wee bit androgynous myself - is that roleplaying in a constructed universe is free from the constraints of gender roles, common stereotypes and expectations. Societies can be and often are radically different sociologically, and D&D allows players to make characters who don't suffer the stigmas of the homemaker, the "butch," the seductress and the emotional basket case. Our world is largely irrelevant, and relying on thousands of years of paternal history is not going to make you a better roleplayer.

Being female requires you to be a person, and it changes who you're more likely to snog. Start there, and don't worry it to death.

EDIT: Read the other thread. :smallsigh:

Indon
2009-09-22, 08:12 AM
On the average, females are physically smaller and weaker than males.
And in most tabletop games, this, and as a result most of your post, is irrelevant.

Women have different genitalia, and that's about it. Most female adventurers wouldn't even be particularly good at seduction, because like male adventurers, the first stat they dump is their charisma.

Frankly, adventurers don't really have gender*. Never will an adventurer think, "Now I'll go kill that Gorgon because I'm a real man," instead, the adventurer thinks, "Now I'll go kill that Gorgon because <plot justification - reward, heroism, etc> is a reason for me to do it!"

Moreover, you try to get an adventurer to do something stupid because of their gender ("Hey, go be a man and check that room for traps"), and there's no chance they'll fall for it. Adventurers do what is effective, not what is expected of their gender. The party male does not check for traps - the party rogue (or failing that, barbarian, or failing that, monk) checks for them.


*-And most don't have race, ethnicity, nationality, and a good deal of them don't have religion.

Kesnit
2009-09-22, 08:23 AM
Like always, there are individuals who defy and deny this, but in this case, the average human woman has a maternal streak in her and the average man has a paternal streak.

Other than gender involved, do those words really mean different things? Some people really want kids, which is wonderful for them. But who (other than society) says mothers have to fight internal threats and fathers external ones? Why can't both parents do the same things, or mix and match however works for them?

I also wonder how much of that statement is true because it is true, and how much is true because society says it is true. I have heard lots of parents say "I didn't really want kids, but then we had them and now I couldn't imagine any other way." Again, I am glad these people are now happy being parents. But they also could have been perfectly happy NOT being parents. They had kids because that is what society tells them they are supposed to do - not because it is what they wanted to do.


The roles re-enforced behavior. If a baby cries, even a stranger's baby, the women react by wanting to fuss over it and make sure it is alright.

Or she will grit her teeth and wonder why the parents are letting the kid scream.


it doesn't know the sound of your voice very well

Why not? Why doesn't the kid know his/her father's voice? If the kid doesn't know his/her father's voice, sounds like that man isn't much of a father.


Usually women are seen as having a greater sense of empathy than men are,

Again, how much of this is fact and how much is "society says this is fact"?


Put another way, yes, you can play the cold-hearted *****, but it is more realistic sterotypical to play the mother lion (even if your PC isn't a mother)

I fixed it for you.
----------------------------

Back to the original question...

As a man who occasionally plays female PC's, it's really easy. Develop your character concept. Figure out who your PC is and what makes her that way. Then play her that way. Your PC is NOT a typical person, she is a hero. She does not have to conform to any ideas what what a woman is supposed to be like, so don't assume you have to play her in any certain way.

If you try to play a female PC the way you think you should, you'll only make yourself look silly.

SlyGuyMcFly
2009-09-22, 08:43 AM
She was chatty, sometimes overbearing, easily-excitable, and liked big explosions.
...frankly, I don't think she would've been very different if she were male.

This is "doing it right"


I always say: Play your female PC as a person who dreams, hopes, prays, does, celebrates, mourns, and cries. Play your female PC as someone who has (internally) consistent goals, dreams, objectives, and desires. Play your female PC as someone with realistic flaws and strengths.

This is "how to do it right"


How to play a female PC if you are male.

* Behave like a human -- not a human with your own personality, but another human with a personality you can understand and to some degree empathize with. Don't think of your character as some sort of strange, exotic animal that you can best understand by learning biological factoids from popular science magazines.


As is this.



As a man who occasionally plays female PC's, it's really easy. Develop your character concept. Figure out who your PC is and what makes her that way. Then play her that way. Your PC is NOT a typical person, she is a hero. She does not have to conform to any ideas what what a woman is supposed to be like, so don't assume you have to play her in any certain way.


So is this.



Frankly, adventurers don't really have gender*.

Funny and true. :smallbiggrin:

woodenbandman
2009-09-22, 09:11 AM
Play a female the way you would play a male. If you change anything at all, make the female slightly more emotional. Other than that, both sexes have the same desires and dreams.

Rhiannon87
2009-09-22, 09:31 AM
I've never even heard that as a distinction between "maternal" and "paternal" before, and I don't think it's reflected in nature. Among bears, for instance, it's fairly well known that mothers will behave aggressively to protect their cubs (from humans, "external threats").

Honestly, this thread like a supremely bad idea. For people who really do want tips, here's my own version:

How to play a female PC if you are male.

Behave like a human -- not a human with your own personality, but another human with a personality you can understand and to some degree empathize with. Don't think of your character as some sort of strange, exotic animal that you can best understand by learning biological factoids from popular science magazines.

This also works as my list of tips for "how to play a male character if you are female", "how to play a female character if you are female", and "how to play a male character if you are male". It won't always be convincing -- I've never seen a roleplayer that was 100% convincing even within their own gender and with a human character. Emulating another personality is hard. However, I think it'll work better than the OP's list, which seems to be encouraging people to basically model their characters after stereotypes and pop psychology.

AMEN. Also props to Frosty, Even Human, and Indon.

Female characters are people, just like male characters. This should not be difficult. Figure out a personality and a backstory and motivations and then play the character. This is just eye-rollingly BAD stereotyping of women, which tragically plays into yet another D&D stereotype: the male D&D player who's never interacted with a woman besides his mother and views all females as strange, mythical angel-creatures whose nature he can only begin to piece together from magazines and the dark corners of the internet.

Women are weaker and maternal. Christ. Haven't you ever watched Buffy?

Ceilingcat
2009-09-22, 09:44 AM
I feel like my experience could be useful here. Namely, I have been on hormone therapy for a month, and so I've experienced both male and female levels of testosterone and estrogen.

I will say this: the only time I have been exceptionally emotional was when my hormones were first balancing out. Besides that I've been exceptionally depressed, because I have that problem, but I don't believe I've been very emotionally different from being on estrogen. While I have a sample size of one, I nevetheless feel that the "women are emotional!" thing is, for the most part, false.

Naturally, a woman's hormone levels may change around her period, but these changes occur in men too-they're just more random, rather than at a specific interval. The difference is that when women are emotional, it's blamed on them being female, while when men are emotional, it's blamed on something else or ignored.

Also, to the person who divided fictional women into "the virgin, the whore, and the nun": that is extremely sexist and I really hope you didn't think about it when you posted it.


Fundamentally, if you want to roleplay an interesting character, male or female, think of a quirk, a concept, and then a backstory, and play the character based on that. For my latest Dark Heresy character, we have, for example, "Sees the goddamn future", "psychic assassin who sees things that aren't there-yet" and then her backstory, which isn't important but involves being psychic and also an assassin.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-22, 09:47 AM
How to roleplay a female character? The same way you'd roleplay a male character: as a person.

Same goes for you, girls! If you play a male character, play him as a person, not as a guy.

Adventurers aren't exactly normal people, anyway.

The Neoclassic
2009-09-22, 09:57 AM
3). remember not to hit on female characters (because your character is female) and don't hit on male characters (because you are male), instead focus on hitting on monsters... with a sword... to kill them.

... So you shouldn't hit on male characters because you're male in real life? Why exactly is that? And you also assume that all female characters must have no interest in other female characters. I'm not advocating the crazy hypersexual, pansexual female sort that some males tend to play, but your reasons for not playing a flirty/sexually active character are not good at all.


How to play a female PC if you are male.

Behave like a human -- not a human with your own personality, but another human with a personality you can understand and to some degree empathize with. Don't think of your character as some sort of strange, exotic animal that you can best understand by learning biological factoids from popular science magazines.

Yeah, I think that sums up all one needs to now pretty well.

Godskook
2009-09-22, 10:01 AM
eh, terrible stereotype. They don't get extra dexterity or toughness (con).

The statistics I've read say that women are more flexible than men on average, an attribute governed by dex. In my personal experience, they make better TWF than men do, and again, when put into D&D terms, it is governed by dex(feat requirements). They're smaller and lighter than men, a fact normally governed by size and a decrease from 'medium' results in, for one thing, more dex.

Yora
2009-09-22, 10:03 AM
I'm always unsure about the amounts of hidden homophobia in these threads.

"Please stop your character talking like that to my character, because I think it's too weired to listen to my friend talking like that to me."

That fixes any possible problems that can occure from PC-romance. Gender does not have to have any influence on that.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-22, 10:06 AM
The statistics I've read say that women are more flexible than men on average, an attribute governed by dex. In my personal experience, they make better TWF than men do, and again, when put into D&D terms, it is governed by dex(feat requirements). They're smaller and lighter than men, a fact normally governed by size and a decrease from 'medium' results in, for one thing, more dex.

Female humans are not so different from male humans to require a two-point difference in their ability scores, and single-point differences aren't terribly balanced.

A woman might be a few inches smaller than a man, but Small size doesn't start until about three and a half feet.

Mikeavelli
2009-09-22, 10:12 AM
I've heard the comment that females being on average weaker doesn't matter because PC's aren't average.

Elves have on average less constitution and on average more dex. half-orcs are on average stronger than the rest of the PC races. The entire ability modifier system is intended to represent the average differenes present between races.

And yes, women on average possess less physical strength than men. It's not present in the game because the designers of D&D decided, for reasons this thread has made obvious, that they weren't going to touch that subject with a 10 foot pole.

There is, however, nothing wrong with house ruling it.

[hr]

From the movie as good as it gets;

"How do you write women so well?"
"I think of a man. Then I take away reason, and accountability."

Another_Poet
2009-09-22, 10:14 AM
I happen to be on the small and, well, puny side of the male average, and I have been physically picked up by women and tossed around.

So a male is writing a guide on how to RP females?

And you open by talking about how females are physically weaker... and then bring up the disproven theory that this has to do with hunting.

Wow, this thread is made of dead baby seals, strangled puppies and urethra fish. You have invented a new kind of Fail.

:(

ap

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-22, 10:15 AM
Women adventurers tend to be less common than males. So while they're more exceptional than male adventurers, their differences balance out. :smallwink:

Or something like that.

Alternatively: average people are built using three 10s and three 11s. So, an average man has a Strength of 11, while an average woman has a Strength of 10. The woman will instead have put that 11 into Dexterity, in which the man has a 10.

The woman probably also has an 11 in Constitution, and I am not touching the mental ability scores with a standard issue ten foot pole.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-22, 10:20 AM
It's awfully 4chan in here all of a sudden.

Indon
2009-09-22, 10:21 AM
And yes, women on average possess less physical strength than men. It's not present in the game because the designers of D&D decided, for reasons this thread has made obvious, that they weren't going to touch that subject with a 10 foot pole.

There is, however, nothing wrong with house ruling it.

And one more thing!

Even if females had a strength penalty compared to men, that wouldn't cause them to act any differently as adventurers - it would at most guide them to classes where they could dump strength. In 3.5, examples would be Wizard, Psion, or Druid.

Yora
2009-09-22, 10:41 AM
Or just put more Points into strength. I think -2 is too high a number for that difference. If you want it represented, don't put so much into strength.

Thajocoth
2009-09-22, 10:45 AM
The physical difference is negligible (and balanced). That is, men tend to have stronger upper bodies while women tend to have stronger lower bodies, but men and women doing the same exercises will be close enough for this really to be negligible. The real reason men tend to be stronger is that it's considered more attractive for men to be muscular while there are certain spots, especially on the upper body, where it's more attractive for women to have fat. People want to be attractive.

Mentally, humans are humans. There's really no difference. Each gender has society-driven restrictions on what's manly and what's womanly, but really, women are just as violent as men and men are just as emotional as women. Everyone just hides it because they're supposed to.

The only real mental difference is that, as social creatures, humans have a sort of internal need to say a certain number of syllables per day, and the average of that number is a little higher in women. As a result, women are a little more social than men. (A very positive trait.) Though, some women are quiet (just as some men are), so this is irrelevant.

So really, the only difference for a guy to play a decent gal PC is simply:
#1 - Be slightly more social than you'd otherwise be. (Unless you're quiet.)
#2 - Like muscles a little more and curves a little less. (Assuming straight guy playing straight gal. Adjust accordingly if otherwise, but I figure it's the most common case that would ask for rules on this.)
#3 - When doable, use legs instead of arms (I running shoulder-slam the door open -> I running jump kick the door open. It's the same check, just different flavor.)

So, since there are exceptions to all of those rules, they don't really matter. Therefore, there are no rules, play however you want to.

Rhiannon87
2009-09-22, 10:48 AM
The fixation on strength is kind of annoying here. I'm currently playing a female character with a strength of 18. There's another female PC in the party who is our main tank; she's got a strength of 22. I'm pretty sure that none of the men in the party break 16 STR. And you know what? It works out okay! The women remain just as female as ever! Hell, my character is high strung and emotional even with that 18 strength! You know why? It's part of her character! She's got a traumatic past, she has issues!

Adventurers are not average. Ignore the "normal" physical characteristics of a given sex and play what makes sense for the character. If you want to play a female fighter with STR 22 or a male sorcerer with a STR 6, then do so. Don't try to force the mechanics to conform to conceptions of what men and women should be. Again: you are playing a person. A character with all kinds of traits and motives and a personality that is influenced but not defined by their sex.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-22, 10:52 AM
Men and women do think differently - our brains are structured differently, and there's no escaping that. Even though it's a stereotype, women really are better at multitasking and going from point A to point Q without hitting any of the other letters on the way.

But this really doesn't make a difference when it comes to ability scores. Women score less on IQ tests not because they're less intelligent, but because IQ tests only test three or four areas of intelligence that men are biologically more suited to. (Note that girls tend to score higher in school exams than boys - for the same reasons. Different types of intelligence.)

While men and woman are different physically, there's not as much of a difference that there should be ability score penalties involved - if a woman wants to become a Fighter she is going to have a high Strength score. Just because there are less women with a Strength of 18 doesn't mean that she doesn't have a Strength of 18.

Triaxx
2009-09-22, 10:55 AM
On those rare occasions I'm asked to give a difference between males and females, I usually give them each a ghost point on a stat. It's a point that gives benefits, but doesn't change the stat. So men get calculated as having an extra point of strength, while women get either an extra point of con or dex, depending on the preference of the players asking. After all, I might be able to throw the refrigerator, but I don't need the stamina for ten hours of labor.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-22, 10:56 AM
You can throw a refrigerator?!

Damn.

LibraryOgre
2009-09-22, 11:00 AM
How women act in real world societies would be completely different from how they would act in a fictionalized world with vastly different values from what we ever had, and where magic is commonplace and dragons swoop in to roast people every other weekend.

Yes and no. A lot of our behavior comes back to biochemical differences; slight variations in brain chemicals make some people manic-depressive or schizophrenic. There's a number of chemical and structural differences between male and female brains in humans... differences in how we're wired... that are going to remain the same across the human species, if we're going to call the species human, instead of "aliens who stand in for humans".

However, there's also some social and environmental differences which will conspire to give women a lot more power than they have in the real world, especially in pre-modern societies. The main difference is going to be magic. While in the real world, strength usually meant muscular strength, the presence and viability of magic (especially magics like sorcery and priestly magics, whose practice is much harder to restrict) is going to go a long way to evening the score... once agriculture allows specialists, the magical specialists have no real reason to be men over women, unlike military specialists, who are often going to be men (owing to the advantage that upper body strength gives you).


Also, in the real world, people evolved. In DnD, they were created. The evolutionary arguments for women's physical attributes go out the window due to that.

Yes and no. In some settings, humans may well have evolved; it's implied to be the case in the Forgotten Realms, for example. In others, they may have come from another location, and they evolved in that location before springing up in the campaign world. This is the case in the novel series about Midkemia by Raymond Feist.

If they were created as humans, then the evolutionary arguments may still apply... because humans evolved, and if you create something based of a template that evolved, you're going to get the aspects of evolution in your creation.

Furthermore, a lot of evolution takes place in a very short period of time; most breeds of dog have arisen in the past thousand years, and they were all barely distinguishable from wolves ten thousand years ago. If sexual attraction works the same way in these worlds as it does in our own (and we have no reason to suspect it does not, and a good number of novels that suggest that it does), then "healthy" is going to continue to differentiate people... and healthy on a man looks odd on a woman, and healthy on a woman looks odd on a man.

Now, the crux of the argument: Does it matter? Do the sex-based differences that do exist matter enough, in mechanical terms, to both with them in D&D. I think they do not. The 2-20 scale that 3.x/4e attributes are based on isn't really granular enough to show these fine differences, and the game tends to be one of exceptions, anyway. There used to be a great article from something called "Tastes Like Phoenix" about playing a female character, but I can't seem to find it.

Indon
2009-09-22, 11:02 AM
Or just put more Points into strength. I think -2 is too high a number for that difference. If you want it represented, don't put so much into strength.

But that wouldn't be optimal!

Ostien
2009-09-22, 11:03 AM
Let's see... we've got the strength penalty (and the charisma bonus for the "temptress"), the "sexy rogue", the "butch" barbarian who's insecure about her late period and a discourse on how "silly girls are emotional."

Yep, I'm insulted. And I'm not even female. Cue the sigh face. :smallsigh:

Discussions on how to "accurately" roleplay female characters always turn to stereotypes because frankly, many dice-jockeys derive their opinions on the female gender from media, rather than personal experience. It's a touchy, rude sort of snark, but sometimes the question begs itself - Have some of you actually interacted with a woman before? Mothers and baristas don't count.


Going off of what this poster said: I think what most people are beating around the bush here are the is the idea of socially constructed gender roles. We are all conditioned from a young age to fit into the masculine or feminine gender role, something that we connect with sex. Gender and sex are not the same thing, not by a long shot. Sex is what you have between your legs and gender is what is between your ears, your mind and personality. This may seem like not a concrete definition of gender, and you are right, but gender is not concrete and is constructed in a hap hazard way.

Furthermore gender is not a binary by any stretch, the way we construct gender is find a group of traits and place them in the masculine and feminine camp. NO ONE has all the traits associated with the feminine nor masculine, they may have more of one then the other but no one is an exemplar of masculinity. Because of it's constructed nature you can't look for an origin of these differences without looking at the social context (boys play with trucks and girls with dolls etc. is a simple example).

I pulled this from wikipedia:
"Due to the influence of (among others) Simone de Beauvoir's feminist works and Michel Foucault's reflections on sexuality, the idea that gender was unrelated to sex gained ground during the 1980s, especially in sociology and cultural anthropology. This view claims that a person could therefore be born with male genitals but still be of feminine gender."
I have Foucault's History of Sexuality and Discipline and Punish sitting here and could quote it at length but 1) too lazy and 2) I don't think that is necessary, but both works would be important in this discussion. Especially the idea of normalizing judgment which everyone in this thread is engaged in right now. I mean the first post was about the "average" female, that being a statistical norm and used that norm in order to effectively create a basis for comparison and "other" those who don't fall within it. Normalizing judgment is the mechanism, or one of the many, that reinforce ideas such as gender roles. The most effective way to control is not to punish anymore but it is to create the situation for self policing based on a norm.

Now objections I may get is that "how could this social construction factor for things such as strength? For that I would bring up John Stuart Mill, who theorized on this in On the subjugation of Women. His idea was that the reason for women being subjugated in general was they were physically weaker in hunting and gathering times ans that this made it possible for women to be easily socially subjugated. However there is nuance as the division of gender roles then made it possible for a strength imbalance to occur. Hunting requires more strength, and muscles follow a use it or lose it principal. thus because of an arbitrary gender role you can have physical effects. One could argue the gender roles came out of the imbalance of strength but one only has to look further then Western culture to see this is not true, such as a Amazonians (which have negative stereotypes all their own). So the point is that gender roles can affect many more traits then simply mannerisms but even something one may thing of as biological such as strength.

I will grant that there are physical and hormonal differences but only to a degree. A quick google search and I found this article: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/03/03/BAGSKBJI981.DTL (the middle is the most important) So male and females brains are not different they develop differently and those differences are then reinforced. As for hormones its not like there is a set amount of testosterone or estrogen that makes us male or female and outside of that we die, its more of a spectrum. I won't even get into the prevalence of inter-sexed, suffice it to say that even physical sex is a gradience.

Basically I reject your reality and substitute my own, because there is not one reality. I'm not getting into some spiritual discussion just an observation that we are an aggregate of experience and, since this is a RP forum, we level up differently, but there are an infinite number of classes and we see the world in an infinite number of ways.

And now I'll recede back into my post modern cave alone with my graduate school soaked mind for a bit then grab a sammich.

Leon
2009-09-22, 11:05 AM
You can throw a refrigerator?!

Damn.

How big of a Refrigerator?

Another_Poet
2009-09-22, 11:07 AM
<12 kinds of awesome>

And now I'll recede back into my post modern cave alone with my graduate school soaked mind for a bit then grab a sammich.

Ostien, I think I am in love with you :)

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-22, 11:10 AM
Whether male and female brains are different because they evolved to be or because they develop that way makes no difference in the fact that they are different. (Also arguing that we aren't born with the differing brains is hilarious - of course we're not. Babies are barely sapient until their brains are taught how to develop. This is why feral kids, even when adopted back into society still tend to think differently.)

Does your D&D world have similar gender roles to historical (and current!) societies here on Earth? Then male and female humans have differing brains that allow for different sorts of thinking.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-22, 11:10 AM
No, no, no...you're doing it all wrong. Here are the real rules on playing a female, gleaned from countless gaming sessions.

1. Draw a picture of your character. If you can't draw, steal a picture off the web and claim credit. Heck, it's easier anyhow. Remember, the less armor she's wearing, the better character she is.

2. High charisma. This justifies her utter sexiness, enabling much fun roleplaying with your male partymates. Remember, if they start to have doubts, show them the aforementioned picture, and ask how they can resist that.

3. Roleplaying isn't all about trying to deeply disturb your fellow gamers, so be sure to also toss in other things once in a while. Screaming for help is always a classic, as is fainting in response to danger. Remember the line: "It's what my character would do". Also, claim to be a princess.

4. No need to waste points on strength. Females are weak and helpless. Anything worth doing can be accomplished by flirting with male party members until they do it for you.

5. Remember the aforementioned picture? Make sure to take it with you every single session, just in case someone forgot. It's ok to forget your character sheet, that's not what's important here. For bonus points, make sure to somewhat crinkle the picture and add unidentified stains between gaming sessions. This adds authenticity, which your fellow gamers will appreciate.

6. Get in character by using a sultry female voice. If you've never heard one, pick your favorite anime character, and use hers.

Ostien
2009-09-22, 11:11 AM
Ostien, I think I am in love with you :)

Wow thats not the kind of response I was expecting but hey good start for my first post.

eepop
2009-09-22, 11:12 AM
The only verified difference between men and women as far as mental capabilities is that men are better at rotating 3 dimensional objects in their head. Thats it. Anything else is anecdotal at best.

Tiki Snakes
2009-09-22, 11:13 AM
No, no, no...you're doing it all wrong. Here are the real rules on playing a female, gleaned from countless gaming sessions.

1. Draw a picture of your character. If you can't draw, steal a picture off the web and claim credit. Heck, it's easier anyhow. Remember, the less armor she's wearing, the better character she is.

2. High charisma. This justifies her utter sexiness, enabling much fun roleplaying with your male partymates. Remember, if they start to have doubts, show them the aforementioned picture, and ask how they can resist that.

3. Roleplaying isn't all about trying to deeply disturb your fellow gamers, so be sure to also toss in other things once in a while. Screaming for help is always a classic, as is fainting in response to danger. Remember the line: "It's what my character would do". Also, claim to be a princess.

4. No need to waste points on strength. Females are weak and helpless. Anything worth doing can be accomplished by flirting with male party members until they do it for you.

5. Remember the aforementioned picture? Make sure to take it with you every single session, just in case someone forgot. It's ok to forget your character sheet, that's not what's important here. For bonus points, make sure to somewhat crinkle the picture and add unidentified stains between gaming sessions. This adds authenticity, which your fellow gamers will appreciate.

6. Get in character by using a sultry female voice. If you've never heard one, pick your favorite anime character, and use hers.

Good advice is good. I'm taking notes.

Totally going to roll a 'Princess' next time. :smallwink:

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-22, 11:13 AM
The only verified difference between men and women as far as mental capabilities is that men are better at rotating 3 dimensional objects in their head. Thats it. Anything else is anecdotal at best.

How do you verify that? We can barely pick two-dimensional images out of people's heads!

And this is quite recent technology I'm talking about here!

Another_Poet
2009-09-22, 11:15 AM
Wow thats not the kind of response I was expecting but hey good start for my first post.

Well it helps that I also like sammitches. But mostly, yeah, someone with a proper understanding of where gender roles come from. Awesome. :)

huttj509
2009-09-22, 11:18 AM
Regarding the man and woman who both take up adventuring to gain revenge for the PC's father's demise:

Both would be the same class/statwise, but their interactions with NPCs could be different, due to their particular deviation from "society's" expectations. I think the point was that a woman who takes up the adventurer's mantle may be viewed as more unusual than a man who does the same, as it is stepping further outside her expected societal role (though ANY adventurer is stepping outside the norm).

Why are women like Jeanne d'Arc and Lady Godiva so well known for taking a stand? Part of it is because of what they did, and would be known for that regardless of gender, but would have, say, a male leader have received the attention Jeanne d'Arc did? A non-trivial part of why she was persecuted was due to her ignoring of established gender roles, deigning to wear "man's clothing" and such. At first, she was written off by some as a girl "playing at soldiers." Of course, there was the political implications of her part in the war that surely fueled the persecution, but her gender added fuel to the fire (ok, poor choice of words, but you know what I mean...)

LibraryOgre
2009-09-22, 11:28 AM
The only verified difference between men and women as far as mental capabilities is that men are better at rotating 3 dimensional objects in their head. Thats it. Anything else is anecdotal at best.

Actually, there are a number of other differences. The connections between emotional and language centers in men's brains tend to be less developed. Men and women have different proportions of rods and cones in our eyes, leading to differences in the way we perceive color (it's red, not goddamn scarlet. You're making stuff up, and we both know it), and thus the world. And, of course, the drum I've been beating, chemicals in the brain. You've heard of "testosterone poisoning", when a guy does something stupid because its macho? Given the amount of mental communication that is in chemicals, it's not a terrible exaggeration.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-22, 11:31 AM
I don't know. The +2 to charisma makes sense. Every single picture I have ever seen of women in D&D, they've always been super sexy and in slinky outfits that just barely clung to themselves. Come on, even their hair looks awesome. How do you have perfect hair after messing up a half giant? Only if you got some extra charisma lying around... that's how.

Mialee the Wizard, that is all.

LibraryOgre
2009-09-22, 11:31 AM
No, no, no...you're doing it all wrong. Here are the real rules on playing a female, gleaned from countless gaming sessions.

1. Draw a picture of your character. If you can't draw, steal a picture off the web and claim credit. Heck, it's easier anyhow. Remember, the less armor she's wearing, the better character she is.

2. High charisma. This justifies her utter sexiness, enabling much fun roleplaying with your male partymates. Remember, if they start to have doubts, show them the aforementioned picture, and ask how they can resist that.

3. Roleplaying isn't all about trying to deeply disturb your fellow gamers, so be sure to also toss in other things once in a while. Screaming for help is always a classic, as is fainting in response to danger. Remember the line: "It's what my character would do". Also, claim to be a princess.

4. No need to waste points on strength. Females are weak and helpless. Anything worth doing can be accomplished by flirting with male party members until they do it for you.

5. Remember the aforementioned picture? Make sure to take it with you every single session, just in case someone forgot. It's ok to forget your character sheet, that's not what's important here. For bonus points, make sure to somewhat crinkle the picture and add unidentified stains between gaming sessions. This adds authenticity, which your fellow gamers will appreciate.

6. Get in character by using a sultry female voice. If you've never heard one, pick your favorite anime character, and use hers.

Bah. What would YOU know about playing a woman? Go back to your kitchen and be quiet. Men are talking.

If your sarcasm meter is not going off from this, please have it recalibrated.

LibraryOgre
2009-09-22, 11:32 AM
Mialee the Wizard, that is all.

You don't find heroin addiction attractive?

What am I going to do with all these needles, then?

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-22, 11:36 AM
Charisma is as much physical attractiveness as Intelligence is spacial reasoning.

(That is, barely covered by that attribute at all, and really more a function of two or more attributes.)

(FYI, spacial reasoning is Int and Wis. Attractiveness probably factors Con and possibly Str in there somewhere.)

Stormthorn
2009-09-22, 11:41 AM
I figure that after the... lively... debate with Riffington in the Gender-bending thread, I thought I would start a thread about how to play a female PC for those guys out there who want to try (or who are looking for a few pointers).

No offense, but shy should i listen to the advice of someone who doesnt even have a gender as far as the info under your name and your sig are concerned?

Jergmo
2009-09-22, 11:44 AM
From the mouth of a female friend: Men are more focused on what they can take, while women are more focused on what they can do with what they already have. A woman's assets will be more well-developed but will be more hesitant to take aggressive risks to expand upon what she has.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-22, 11:45 AM
From the mouth of a female friend: Men are more focused on what they can take, while women are more focused on what they can do with what they already have. A woman's assets will be more well-developed but will be more hesitant to take aggressive risks to expand upon what she has.

Yeah, that's anecdotal and also kinda sexist.

Jergmo
2009-09-22, 11:48 AM
Yeah, that's anecdotal and also kinda sexist.

Don't shoot the messenger. My female rogue/swashbuckler certainly isn't afraid to take risks, though it does help that she has several ways of getting out of a sticky situation, I suppose.

Stormthorn
2009-09-22, 11:49 AM
I always say: Play your female PC as a person who dreams, hopes, prays, does, celebrates, mourns, and cries. Play your female PC as someone who has (internally) consistent goals, dreams, objectives, and desires. Play your female PC as someone with realistic flaws and strengths.

Do all of that before you play your female PC for its "femaleness" and you will have a kickass, well-presented female PC.

No, you will just have a role-playing PC without gender.


Yeah, that's anecdotal and also kinda sexist.

Against which sex?

Roland St. Jude
2009-09-22, 12:02 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: First, there is already a thread on this topic. Second, as posed this topic is rather sexist and invites sexist discussions. Third, this type of discussion usually ends in flames and political/religious comments.

So for reason 1, I'm locking this and I ask you to take it back to that other thread. And for reasons 2 and 3, I ask you to not actually follow through on my suggestion related to reason 1.