are monks really so bad? Please read post #156 first

[taltamir]

People keep on saying that monks are terrible... mainly saying their damage capacity sucks...

My understanding was that a monk was a warrior with crappy damage but with immunity to anything ever TM.
They get immunity to poison, immunity to disease, SR, immunity to falling damage, damage reduction, immunity to mind spells, and eventually even immunity to aging penalties (they accrue the benefits though). Plus they are amazingly fast and hard to hit.

They sound like an interesting non damage dealing tank... While your normal tank can hold back the dragon / demon... he takes a lot of damage doing so, can be converting into TPK in a can with a single failed will save, and can do a little damage to help your "back row" blasters...
A monk seems like he could hold anything back, take no damage from them, be unconvertable or stunable, and leave most of the damage to the back row blasters... he could still do some damage though, especially with a nice magic weapon (which he could aquire because he gets as class abilities what most classes HAVE to pay a lot of cash to get...)

[Signmaker]

They get immunity to poison
Pretty decent, yes.

, immunity to disease,
Doesn't come up so often.

SR,
Not as useful as you'd think, especially given CL-boosting methods and the option of just targeting someone ELSE with a spell. Also, several no-SR spells.


immunity to falling damage
Only near walls.


, damage reduction,
Easily bypassed, and not untill 20th level when DR/Magic is entirely pointless.


immunity to mind spells
Not quite. I assume you're referring to still mind.


Plus they are amazingly fast
Most certainly true.


and hard to hit.
Not so much.

[EnnPeeCee]

The problem with that strategy lies in the "non-damage dealing" part. If the character is little-to-no threat to enemies, but is very hard to kill, they will simply choose to ignore the monk and walk around it to the people you are supposed to be defending. Its a very similar issue that arises with the dwarven defender. Sure, if you have a doorway to wedge yourself in, it would be helpful. But in most situations where there is ample room to move, the monk would find itself ignored.

[taltamir]

you are right, they do NOT get immunity to mind affecting spells... only +2 against it.

[sonofzeal]

Ehhhhh.....

Immunity to poison and nonmagical disease is pretty minor. That's practically a racial feature for dwarves.

SR is very nice but comes too late.

Immune to falling damage.... while next to a wall. You can still be picked up by a monster and dropped.

Immunity to mind-affecting would be excellent, if they had it, which they don't. +2 vs Enchantment is a very different kettle of fish, and not nearly in the same league.

Immunity to aging? How often does this come up as a hazard? Now, if you're playing a lvl 18 campaign, and the DM lets you age multiple categories since getting Timeless Body, well that helps a bit. I guess. But it's rather exploitive and unlikely to fly.

And.... compare the AC of a monk, at any level, to the AC of a fullplate wearing Fighter. Monk starts off faaaar behind, and stays behind pretty much his entire career. At level 20, he's basically on par with a heavily armoured Fighter, but only if he's spending large swathes of his gp on it. The Fighter can also trade Armor/Shield enhancement for things like Fortification, while the Monk has to sit with Bracers of Armor that don't allow for that.



Anyway, what good is it if you don't die, if you can't do anything useful in the mean time? Since you can't actually do much of anything to most monsters, they'll just ignore you until they've killed all your allies, and then munch on you at their leisure. About the best thing a Monk can often do is pick up the bodies of fallen comrades and run them back to town to be rezzed.

[taltamir]

The problem with that strategy lies in the "non-damage dealing" part. If the character is little-to-no threat to enemies, but is very hard to kill, they will simply choose to ignore the monk and walk around it to the people you are supposed to be defending. Its a very similar issue that arises with the dwarven defender. Sure, if you have a doorway to wedge yourself in, it would be helpful. But in most situations where there is ample room to move, the monk would find itself ignored.

Ugh, I was so used to CRPG... In CRPG the computer is always too stupid to just walk around the monk...

but what if you make a grappling monk? They can't ignore you if you are pinning them to the floor. Especially if you tumbled by all the grunts to pin their high level mage leader?

[Kylarra]

Ugh, I was so used to CRPG... In CRPG the computer is always too stupid to just walk around the monk...

but what if you make a grappling monk? They can't ignore you if you are pinning them to the floor.The problem with grappling is 3/4 BAB and lots of monsters are bigger/stronger than you.

[sonofzeal]

Ugh, I was so used to CRPG... In CRPG the computer is always too stupid to just walk around the monk...

but what if you make a grappling monk? They can't ignore you if you are pinning them to the floor.
Grapple-monks work fairly well, as Monk Unarmed Strike controls your grapple damage. However, you're hampered by your 3/4 BAB, your dependence on attributes other than Strength, and the fact that you don't have any in-house way to boost your size category. So your Grapple is really dangerous, but only against things your size and with worse BAB than you, and only if they didn't prepare Freedom of Movement or Dimension Door.

[EnnPeeCee]

Ugh, I was so used to CRPG... In CRPG the computer is always too stupid to just walk around the monk...

but what if you make a grappling monk? They can't ignore you if you are pinning them to the floor.

That one enemy, sure. But then you're letting everything else walk by with no penalty at all.

And I know what you mean about CRPGs, I'm used to playing things like Neverwinter, so I get caught off guard often when playing D&D when things don't act like retarded AI.

[taltamir]

That one enemy, sure. But then you're letting everything else walk by with no penalty at all.

And I know what you mean about CRPGs, I'm used to playing things like Neverwinter, so I get caught off guard often when playing D&D when things don't act like retarded AI.

:)
NWN drained a whole YEAR of my life (user made modules).

I still get surprised by how intelligent DM controlled monsters are...


Grapple-monks work fairly well, as Monk Unarmed Strike controls your grapple damage. However, you're hampered by your 3/4 BAB, your dependence on attributes other than Strength, and the fact that you don't have any in-house way to boost your size category. So your Grapple is really dangerous, but only against things your size and with worse BAB than you, and only if they didn't prepare Freedom of Movement or Dimension Door.

Oh wow.. ok they suck.
And looking over barbarians... better damage reduction, better will save bonus, improved evasion... a barbarian looks like a better monk than a monk...

Question... would a monk make a good gestalt for a wizard?

[SoD]

Question... would a monk make a good gestalt for a wizard?

Well, if the wizard has high wisdom, even if you just take one level in monk for the AC bonus. That'd be nice.

Edit; and another for evasion. Charge into the middle of everyone and throw a fireball at your feet. Sucesful save? It missed you!

[Kylarra]

Question... would a monk make a good gestalt for a wizard?Only if you burned a feat on Carmendine Monk/Kung-fu Genius to get INT to AC instead of WIS.

[taltamir]

yes, but then you sacrifice caster progression...
I mean gestalt.
A warrior gives nice HD, but meh saves, BAB is no use to a high level wizard, and warrior feats aren't either. And AC depends on armor which you cannot wear.

The monks full save progression for all three saves is nice, combined with D8 instead of d4, and both limiting to "no armor"

[Kylarra]

The monk isn't competing with a fighter, it's competing with a warblade. D12 HD, INT bonus to reflex, INT to various other stats, maneuvers.

or Psion, schism says "hi action economy".

or Factotum - I heard you like extra actions.

etc.

[taltamir]

The monk isn't competing with a fighter, it's competing with a warblade. D12 HD, INT bonus to reflex in addition to good fort saves, INT to various other stats, maneuvers.

or Psion, schism says "hi action economy".

or Factotum - I heard you like extra actions.

etc.

I heard of the psion... I don't know what he can do (i really SHOULD read the psionics books)... I haven't heard of the warblade or factotum. What books are they from?

[Kylarra]

Warblade is from Tome of Battle.
Factotum is Dungeonscape.

[sonofzeal]

Monks make for excellent Gestalts, when your first side is entirely function but maybe a bit vulnerable by itself. Full-casters are perfect for this, especially Druids.

What's better than turning into a T-Rex? Turning into a T-Rex that can go all kung-fu on your ass. And deflect arrows with its little nubbly arms. FTW!

[Kylarra]

Monks make for excellent Gestalts, when your first side is entirely function but maybe a bit vulnerable by itself. Full-casters are perfect for this, especially Druids.

What's better than turning into a T-Rex? Turning into a T-Rex that can go all kung-fu on your ass. And deflect arrows with its little nubbly arms. FTW!Yeah, I'll concede that for a Wis-Caster a level or two of monk is nice for the AC, presuming you don't prefer swordsage maneuvers over the few feats.

[taltamir]

Monks make for excellent Gestalts, when your first side is entirely function but maybe a bit vulnerable by itself. Full-casters are perfect for this, especially Druids.

What's better than turning into a T-Rex? Turning into a T-Rex that can go all kung-fu on your ass. And deflect arrows with its little nubbly arms. FTW!

heh, this reminds me uber builds for nwn... druid 39 / monk 1. I am a dragon that knows kung fu!
Plus did you see the wisdom on some of those creatures? ;p

[Eldariel]

Monks are excellent 1-2 level dips due to the sheer number of abilities you get over those levels. 6th level is the last one you realistically want to be taking. Also, people pointed how Grapple is pretty bad for a Monk, but they failed to mention one of the bigger problems with Grapple:
- You're Flat-Footed vs. every opponent other than the one you're Grappling. So bye bye, AC, hello Sneak Attacking Rogue. Grapple either has you ignored or is very detrimental to your life.

[Frosty]

Monks make for excellent Gestalts, when your first side is entirely function but maybe a bit vulnerable by itself. Full-casters are perfect for this, especially Druids.

What's better than turning into a T-Rex? Turning into a T-Rex that can go all kung-fu on your ass. And deflect arrows with its little nubbly arms. FTW!

But it's better to be a T-Rex that can go king-fu on your ass and actually have it MEAN something. Hence, skip Monk and go Unarmed Swordsage//Druid. The T-Rex picks you up, and throws you against the tree trunk. he then Shadow Blinks next to you.

[T.G. Oskar]

or Psion, schism says "hi action economy".

Well, you know...with some decent choices (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionicFist.htm) and a feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge), you can get Schism, if that's what worries you. You can get it even faster with another feat...ashalatora.

Damage output isn't so hot, more than the fact it can't reliably deal that damage. A PA/Shocktrooper Barbarian deals consistent damage because it attempts to work both high attack bonus and consistent fixed damage. A Rogue can deal reliable damage through making Sneak Attack opportunities. A Martial Adept just loads and fires its maneuvers. A Monk's damage output relies on standing still and doing more damage than a Fighter, except that magic items kinda ruin that.

And in Core, the Monk is competing with a Fighter. And a Barbarian. The latter deals solid damage even in core, while the former can work a few builds with its feats (Core feats in most of them, although they get better with splats), something the Monk can't mostly rely upon. To be roughly successful, a Monk requires a feat that's not on the PHB but on the Monster Manual, and even then it gets replaced pretty easily (a Monk's Belt of all things, which oddly enough is Core). Not to mention that their lack of weapons and armor means no enchantments, which means you lose on many of the worthwhile ones.

[Cyclocone]

Well, you know...with some decent choices (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionicFist.htm) and a feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge), you can get Schism, if that's what worries you. You can get it even faster with another feat...ashalatora.

But Fist of Zuoken doesn't get Time Stop Temporal Acceleration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/temporalAcceleration.htm).:smallsmile:

[AslanCross]

Sure, the monk can survive a battle. That does not necessarily mean he wins it.
Tanking in 3.5 is very difficult to do; the best classes that can tank in a way that actually prevents monsters from hitting allies are the knight and crusader, since they actually have abilities that say "hit me, not him" and "you're not getting past me."

The monk can't even threaten a mindless enemy enough to cause it to target him instead.

[Shpadoinkle]

MAD is one. Monks need Wisdom, Dexterity, and Constitution, and unless you want to burn one of your few feats on Weapon Finesse, they need Strength too.

Medium BAB is another. They have no way of boosting thier attack bonus that a fighter can't do equally well- probably better. Good luck hitting anything CR appropriate regularly.

Why grappling is a poor strategy has been covered already. Besides, any caster worth a damn is going to have divinations to tell him there's a grappler among the enemy, and Freedom of Movement from one source or another. Characters under the effect of Freedom of Movement can't be grappled. Again, have fun trying to hit anything.

Power Attack, unless you get some ungodly high Strength (or Dexerity + WF) score, is essentailly useless, meaning your damage is only ever going to be average. Provided you hit at all, that is.

Edit: Also, there is virtually no synergy in thier class abilities. They're just a random mishmash of crap that doesn't make any real sense. Let's see... okay, evasion, that's pretty good. Still Mind, also not bad, but a pretty crappy excuse for a class feature. Maybe next level.... Slow Fall... huh. Oh, and they get Ki Strike (magic) a level or two after everyone else has a magic weapon anyway. Hey, Purity of Body makes me immune to disease! Er... wait, when was the last time anyone ever actually used disease? Oh, and it doesn't apply to stuff that might actually come up, like lycanthropy or mummy rot. Oh, hey, Wholeness of Body lets me heal myself! For twice my level... huh. Assuming a 14 Con, that averages 6.5 HP per level, plus an extra 1.5 from the maxed first level HD. So... I can heal roughly a quarter of my HP every day... kind of random, but nice... except I'm starting to really feel the fact that I have trouble hitting anything consistantly because of my medium BAB. Hey, Imrpoved Evasion, that's awesome! But rogues get it too. Hey, Diamond Body makes me immune to pooison! Except again, nobody ever uses poison because it's useless... Hey, Abundant Step lets me cast Dimension Door once per day! Now I can be ineffective much more efficiently! Hey, I get SR at level 13! Wow, 13 levels for one sort of good ability. Hey, I can instantly kill someone! Once a week! Oh, but they get a really easy saving throw for it to have no effect, and if they save, it's wasted. Oh hey, at level 17, when wizards get 9th level spells, I get to be immune to the negative effects of aging, wow! But when was the last time that actually came up in a game? Oh, and I also get to talk to anything that has a language, which is something the wizard has been able to do since level 3 via the Tongues spell. Oh, and at level 19, I can turn ethereal for 1 round/evel each day. Which the wizard has been able to do since six levels ago. And at level 20, I get DR 10/magic. Wow. Oh and I'm immune to stuff like Charm Person, which I essentially was already thanks to my good Will save advancement, high Wisdom, and Still Mind.

Oh, and I also gradually get to move faster. So I can be ineffective anywhere I want! And a really crappy AC bonus! That I lose if I wear armor! And Flurry of Misses! And I can run down walls without getting hurt!

So... I can't do any damage, but I'm REALLY hard to kill! Which is awesome! That means I get to be taken prisoner after everyone else is murdered due at least in part to me being totally useless!

Medium monks suck. Small monks suck much hader. The only way a monk can really be any good is if he's large or bigger and has reach.

[Totally Guy]

I played an Enlightened fist in our last game and I was impressed.

Monks are really fun if he's covering his weaknesses with magic. I ought to look into their divine equivilent.

[T.G. Oskar]

But Fist of Zuoken doesn't get Time Stop Temporal Acceleration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/temporalAcceleration.htm).:smallsmile:

Monk 2/Psion 18 (or Ardent 18) does. Notice the subliminal message? ;)

[Doc Roc]

Monk is bad enough that to my knowledge, no monk has ever won a ToS match. Outside of core, they're relatively playable but still very weak. I can do interesting things with one, but I recommend you pick a fix you are comfortable with and discard the standard monk.


Monk 2/Psion 18 (or Ardent 18) does. Notice the subliminal message? ;)

I personally think that ardent is the better choice here, particularly because ardent selects its powers based entirely on its ML, meaning practiced manifester is basically wildly superior to sliced bread.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

I've found the Pathfinder monk (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/monk.html#monk)to be a reasonable change - it gets a better attack bonus for the Flurry of Blows, which helps.

[lord_khaine]

Grapple-monks work fairly well, as Monk Unarmed Strike controls your grapple damage. However, you're hampered by your 3/4 BAB, your dependence on attributes other than Strength, and the fact that you don't have any in-house way to boost your size category. So your Grapple is really dangerous, but only against things your size and with worse BAB than you, and only if they didn't prepare Freedom of Movement or Dimension Door.

Well, potions of enlarge is 50 gold per bottle, and by the time the difference in full and medium bab gets over +2, you will have had the gold to use a potion in every serious battle for a long time.

Even if they did prepare freedom of movement, they would need time to cast it beforehand, and they would still run the risk of someone dispelling it, and as for dimension door, it still force the opponent to waste a action getting free.


Medium BAB is another. They have no way of boosting thier attack bonus that a fighter can't do equally well- probably better. Good luck hitting anything CR appropriate regularly.

The difference between medium and full bab is overratet, and more or less compensatet for by flurry of blows.


Why grappling is a poor strategy has been covered already. Besides, any caster worth a damn is going to have divinations to tell him there's a grappler among the enemy, and Freedom of Movement from one source or another. Characters under the effect of Freedom of Movement can't be grappled. Again, have fun trying to hit anything.


And again, not everyone allows simple divinations to tell with perfect clarity what spells is going to be needet for the comming day, and unless you actualy get a item of Freedom of movement, then your defence against grappling isnt perfect.
Actualy, i have played a grappling monk, and i had fun hitting things, its not as hard as you make it sound.

[taltamir]

I've found the Pathfinder monk (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/monk.html#monk)to be a reasonable change - it gets a better attack bonus for the Flurry of Blows, which helps.

it seems to have fixed some things, but others still make no sense.. for example the tongues ability at level 17. Pretty poor ability considering casters could cast tongues at ... level 3? and can make it permanent on anyone with a permanency spell at level 11.

lord_khaine: that is very interesting to hear. can you tell us more?

[Kurald Galain]

Well, potions of enlarge is 50 gold per bottle,
250 gp according to the SRD.

The problems with this approach is that (1) it costs you a standard action, and (2) dispel magic shuts it down hard since its caster level is too low.



Even if they did prepare freedom of movement, they would need time to cast it beforehand,
It exists in ring form.

It's funny that you list dispelling as a risk for the high-CL FOM spell, but ignore it for the level-1 Enlarge.


The difference between medium and full bab is overratet, and more or less compensatet for by flurry of blows.
Power Attack proves you wrong.

[Doc Roc]

Lord Khaine, I'm going to throw my backing behing Kurald here, and then withdraw from the argument before it devolves into Yet Another Monk thread. Suffice to say that at this point, the burden of empirical or statistical proof lies with you, and I want some heavy-hitting numeromancy from you.

[T.G. Oskar]

MAD is one. Monks need Wisdom, Dexterity, and Constitution, and unless you want to burn one of your few feats on Weapon Finesse, they need Strength too.

Well, there's Intuitive Attack, which is another use of a feat but it allows to use Wisdom instead. Or Kung Fu Genius/Carmendine Monk for using Int; the latter one isn't a bad feat actually.


Why grappling is a poor strategy has been covered already. Besides, any caster worth a damn is going to have divinations to tell him there's a grappler among the enemy, and Freedom of Movement from one source or another. Characters under the effect of Freedom of Movement can't be grappled. Again, have fun trying to hit anything.

What are the chances that a non-humanoid, non-caster creature has Freedom of Movement? What are the chances that a non-caster has a Ring of Freedom of Movement (that's just the DM giving you nice loot; a good DM would think twice about that)

Really, there are other ways to beat grapple which are easier, and those have their own way to be handled. Size can be countered with size; there's a nice feat (which is not Improved Grapple) which can level the playing field with a larger creature.

Grapple isn't useless; it's a sub-par tactic. It requires a lot to be fixed into working, but the cheater's way to evade it is either: A) caster-only (or manifester, as well), or B) quite expensive and an odd choice for a DM to use. Just recall, you aren't always playing on a wizards-as-rulers campaign.
Tattoos with the spell, on the other hand...

Power Attack, unless you get some ungodly high Strength (or Dexerity + WF) score, is essentailly useless, meaning your damage is only ever going to be average. Provided you hit at all, that is.

Which is why you don't use Power Attack at all. Power Attack is the realm of two-handers. The realm of one-handers or light-weapon users is Weapon Finesse + TWF, however sub-par and nonsense it seems.


Edit: Also, there is virtually no synergy in thier class abilities. They're just a random mishmash of crap that doesn't make any real sense.

Perhaps, but let's be fair to the Monk, shall we? Some of them make a bit of sense, actually.


Let's see... okay, evasion, that's pretty good.


Hey, Improved Evasion, that's awesome! But rogues get it too.

Monks get Evasion + high Ref save + they depend on Dex for a lot of stuff, so don't think it's a bad thing. And they are sure to get Improved Evasion: a Rogue may choose not to get it. It can choose feats, after all...


Still Mind, also not bad, but a pretty crappy excuse for a class feature.

Unless you're going for Psionic Fist (of Zuoken) or Zerth Cenobite, which require Still Mind. I would have said "give them Mind Blank much later as part of Still Mind", but meh; that's what they had in Core.


Maybe next level.... Slow Fall... huh.

You forgot to say how Feather Fall is much better. But couple it with a wall, and the Tumble ability, and you have a not-so-bad Feather Fall replacement.


Oh, and they get Ki Strike (magic) a level or two after everyone else has a magic weapon anyway.

Originally, they had the equivalent of a +1 or +2 for the same thing (reducing DR, not as an enhancement). Though, on that moment, a DR 20/+3 was pretty solid. That exchange of DR nerfed the Monk's ability, but it actually nerfed DR even more.

They also get DR-punching against chaotic creatures. Oh, and they also get to bypass Adamantine...which is good when you face constructs? I mean, nearly all constructs have some form of really solid DR/adamantine...


Hey, Purity of Body makes me immune to disease! Er... wait, when was the last time anyone ever actually used disease? Oh, and it doesn't apply to stuff that might actually come up, like lycanthropy or mummy rot.

If you ever get surprise-infected with a disease, it may just save your life.


Oh, hey, Wholeness of Body lets me heal myself! For twice my level... huh. Assuming a 14 Con, that averages 6.5 HP per level, plus an extra 1.5 from the maxed first level HD. So... I can heal roughly a quarter of my HP every day... kind of random, but nice... except I'm starting to really feel the fact that I have trouble hitting anything consistantly because of my medium BAB.

Well...Caduceus Bracers make that roughly better. It's like having a Lesser Restoration effect. But yeah, they were silly enough not to make it like the Paladin's Lay on Hands. Even if it was for itself.

Now, if the construct is a Warforged, it can apply that Lay on Hands even with the spell or feat that nulls magical healing.


Hey, Diamond Body makes me immune to pooison! Except again, nobody ever uses poison because it's useless...

Did you know that they are immune to Cloudkill's venom as well? Or...Venomfire? Or the Fleshraker's venom, I might add? Those are three spells and/or natural abilities that are tied to poison.


Hey, Abundant Step lets me cast Dimension Door once per day! Now I can be ineffective much more efficiently!

Or escape to live another day? I mean, which Wizard will make their lairs unable to allow teleportation...


Hey, I get SR at level 13! Wow, 13 levels for one sort of good ability.

Which can be easily and horribly beaten. It's a shame SR doesn't act like real AC, meaning that it could stack if it comes from a different source.


Hey, I can instantly kill someone! Once a week! Oh, but they get a really easy saving throw for it to have no effect, and if they save, it's wasted.

Easy? Well, at that level, and if you properly raise your Wis (you want it for other stuff), you're speaking of a DC of 20-21. A normal low-Fort character will probably have a +5 base, perhaps a +2-+3 by Con, and give or take +5 because of a very expensive Cloak of Resistance. That's still 6/7 of 20 chances in failing.

Now, if you had said "immunity to crits or Death Ward make it useless", I might concede...


Oh hey, at level 17, when wizards get 9th level spells, I get to be immune to the negative effects of aging, wow! But when was the last time that actually came up in a game?

You're lucky there aren't aging spells in the game. That would be broken. However, that would mean you could spend some time on a slow-time plane and return a wiser individual, without losing physical prowess. It's a tad better than with a Druid, since they don't care about physical stats at all (perhaps Con...), and they have the same exact ability.


Oh, and I also get to talk to anything that has a language, which is something the wizard has been able to do since level 3 via the Tongues spell.

Except you can speak with creatures that don't have a language. Try having Tongues beat that...

Look at it. It's Tongues meets Speak with Plants meets Speak with Animals. By RAW. At level 17th, when you don't even need to bother learning another language since you're pretty famous enough to have people speak Common just for you.


Oh, and at level 19, I can turn ethereal for 1 round/evel each day. Which the wizard has been able to do since six levels ago.

And none of them would be able to do anything worthwhile. Unless the caster learned Transdimensional Spell. Don't you know that going ethereal is pretty much a waste of time? It's fine for escaping, though.


And at level 20, I get DR 10/magic. Wow. Oh and I'm immune to stuff like Charm Person, which I essentailly was already thanks to my good Will save advancement, high Wisdom, and Still Mind.

Well, it depends. You could be capable of turning into an Outsider if you had a way to have Alter Self, or Polymorph. Laughable, really, but it's not a half-bad idea.


Oh, and I also gradually get to move faster. So I can be ineffective anywhere I want!

Well, it's actually one of the best class-based boosts to movement. An ubercharger would dream to have such a massive boost to movement. Actually, it's one of the reasons why it doesn't make any sense; you give all that movement to a character who might not probably be able to use it.

Unless you have, say, Hustle. Or a Belt of Battle. Or a Quicksilver Boots, actually. Or...heck, anything (or anyone) that grants you a free movement. Then, you just zoom through the battlefield, and can even take half of your speed and Tumble or Balance it without trouble. And if there's a movement speed that depends on your land speed, that gets boosted too.


And a really crappy AC bonus! That I lose if I wear armor!

Unless you have a pretty nice Wis, actually. Hey, you don't lose it by silly stuff as getting touched or losing your Dex bonus to AC, you lose it only by being helpless, and by that moment you'll probably find a way to not become helpless, immobilized or paralyzed. It's one of the best bonuses to AC there is, right with deflection.


And Flurry of Misses!

Actually, you can get a huge load of attacks through it. It won't be effective with just Core, though. Now, get some splats, and you can work some nifty stuff out of it.


Medium monks suck. Small monks suck much hader. The only way a monk can really be any good is if he's large or bigger and has reach.

Didn't you said Grapple just sucked?

In any case, you forgot about some other stuff (bonus feats). Remember, we're being fair to the Monk, as it's a class that could have been awesome were it not because of that disparate set of abilities.

Not all Monks take Improved Grapple. Stunning Fist is also available, which remains quite effective throughout the life of the Monk. Actually, you get a huge load of uses out of it, more than you'll ever possibly need per day. It has a better DC than Quivering Palm. And it has upgrades to it (Weakening Touch, Pain Touch, Freezing the Lifeblood) Second level has either Combat Reflexes (there's a way to make the Monk pretty awesome as a opportunist) or Deflect Arrows (which doesn't reflect just arrows, mind you). Sixth level is a tad less good, but it has either Improved Disarm (get the favorite weapon of the melee character out, or grab its items), or Improved Trip (which blends real, real well with the above Combat Reflexes). You can replace those feats with a few limited others, if you wish.

Still, consider there are reasons why the Monk still has hope. It's not CW Samurai, which is definitely an attempt to make a class out of a build (and a poor one at that), or a Commoner, or a Truenamer (and a Truenamer can be fixed, too). The "bad AC" gain can be acquired through a Monk's Belt (which, oddly, most people consider a good choice if you don't wear armor), for example. The duality as a natural weapon and a manufactured weapon makes the Monk's unarmed strike a very decent choice (you can either get GMW or GMF out of it, and there's a Necklace that allows you to enchant your Unarmed Strike as if it were a weapon), it has all three good saves (only the Favored Soul has that as well), and even if it's MAD, oddly enough it requires high Dex (which raises Reflex), Con (which raises Fort) and Wis (which raises Will).

I won't say it's awesome; I think I have stated before why it is a deception. It is a deception because it is a concept that wasn't ever fixed. Errata never aided the Monk, ever. Had they errata'ed the Monk, perhaps it could have been much better. Perhaps if they noticed what they did with the OA Ninja, or the Swordsage, they could have fixed the Monk to be awesome. But I don't say it's so horrible that it becomes a cancer to any build (quite the contrary)

[Grumman]

Edit; and another for evasion. Charge into the middle of everyone and throw a fireball at your feet. Sucesful save? It missed you!
I prefer the rogue-wizard. At least that gives you a reason to run into blast range, so you can sneak attack them with your Meteor Swarm. :smallbiggrin:

[lord_khaine]

250 gp according to the SRD.

The problems with this approach is that (1) it costs you a standard action, and (2) dispel magic shuts it down hard since its caster level is too low.


Yes, strangely enough it does cost 250 gold on the SRD, must a potion made with a higher caster level, since by all standart potion rules it should cost 50 gold.
(1) isnt a problem, you use it in the first round of combat, where you at the same same time position yourself so that your new reach will make life tough for your opponents.
(2) its a great use of a cheap potion, if you can make your opponent waste a action on dispelling it, and you can allways take a new potion.


It exists in ring form.

It's funny that you list dispelling as a risk for the high-CL FOM spell, but ignore it for the level-1 Enlarge.


And its even more funny, that a ring of freedom of movement cost 40k, meaning by the time most npc can afford it, then it hardly matters because most campaigns dont run that long.

And the main reason i list dispelling as a risk for FOM, and not for the monk is that FOM is found on spellcasters, who are the main target of dispels, while monks are proberly the last person in a party you would bother trying to dispel.
Also, its normaly not against casters that enlarge potions are used, so against those who can dispel the enlarge, it hardly matters because its usualy not needet there.


Power Attack proves you wrong.
No, it dont prove anything, if you want to PROVE something, you need more than just to call out the name of a feat.


Lord Khaine, I'm going to throw my backing behing Kurald here, and then withdraw from the argument before it devolves into Yet Another Monk thread. Suffice to say that at this point, the burden of empirical or statistical proof lies with you, and I want some heavy-hitting numeromancy from you.

Normaly you would say, then people who come up with such drastic claims about monks are the ones carrying the burden of proof, but fine.

what do you want, number of hits for warrior vs monk, where i explore the difference between flurry of blows, versus full bab?
what levels do you think are relevant here?

[DragoonWraith]

Normaly you would say, then people who come up with such drastic claims about monks are the ones carrying the burden of proof, but fine.
It's been done a hundred times. The reason the burden of proof is on you is because you are contradicting hundreds of playtests and probably as many character optimizers who really know their stuff. The Monk is unequivocally, mathematically, objectively underpowered compared to... almost everything. In Core, anyway.

Unless you go with partially-charged wand shenanigans, and even then... I'm not convinced.

[Kurald Galain]

(1) isnt a problem, you use it in the first round of combat,
Since most combats last 3-4 rounds, that means you spend 25% of your time not contributing.



(2) its a great use of a cheap potion, if you can make your opponent waste a action on dispelling it,
Dispel Magic is an area effect.

At any rate, the problem with grappling (and, for that matter, sundering) is that it's simply not a good strategy to begin with. That's aside from the fact that any class with strength focus and a full BAB is a better grappler than the monk, and aside from the fact that any large or bigger monster is a better grappler than those .


if you want to PROVE something, you need more than just to call out the name of a feat.
That's correct. So why don't you break out some math and prove that a monk's damage output is on par with that of, say, a fighter? Noting that fighter is also a very low-tier class.

[lord_khaine]

Since most combats last 3-4 rounds, that means you spend 25% of your time not contributing

Since you normaly spend a round moving around, or get a rounds warning if you have scouts out, then you hardly waste 25% of your time.


Dispel Magic is an area effect.

seems you missed all the other arguments for why it still hardly mattered.


At any rate, the problem with grappling (and, for that matter, sundering) is that it's simply not a good strategy to begin with. That's aside from the fact that any class with strength focus and a full BAB is a better grappler than the monk, and aside from the fact that any large or bigger monster is a better grappler than those .

Grappling has its place, and when you cant grapple something then its still often possible to trip it instead.
A class with full bab have a +1 bonus per 4 levels above the monk, but i have allready shown in the last discussion that its compensatet for by flurry of blows, and thats aside from the fact that a full bab class isnt doing any real damage grappling, while its only a minor damage loss for a monk.

Your experience might be different, but i have rarely fought anything larger than large, and thats still not to big to be either trippet or grappled most of the time.


That's correct. So why don't you break out some math and prove that a monk's damage output is on par with that of, say, a fighter? Noting that fighter is also a very low-tier class.
Why dont you start by proving its worse? im courious to see if you are able to do that without building a straw monk.
lets keep it inside core as usual.

[Kurald Galain]

Since you normaly spend a round moving around,
That seems like pretty bad strategy.


Grappling has its place, and when you cant grapple something then its still often possible to trip it instead.
Tripping is a decent strategy, no argument there. Incidentally, the common trip builds do not use the monk class, because other classes offer better synergy.


A class with full bab have a +1 bonus per 4 levels above the monk,
Full BAB and a strength focus means an additional +4 or +5 for the fighter. Oops.


but i have allready shown in the last discussion that its compensatet for by flurry of blows,
No, you have claimed that it is compensated for.


Anyway, looks like it's time for this table again. This list represents a survery on class power among regulars at the character building forums of WOTC. The consensus of those people is that yes, monks really are so bad, and that should answer the OP's question.

{table]Class|Cnt.|Avg.|SD|Med.|Mode|Min/Max|Spread|Comment
wizard|42|9.67|0.45|10.00|10.00|9/10|1|<=== Supreme Tier
archivist|38|9.63|0.62|10.00|10.00|7/10|3
artificer|37|9.39|0.76|10.00|10.00|8/10|2
druid|41|9.38|0.65|9.50|10.00|8/10|2
cleric|42|9.16|0.76|9.00|9.00|7/10|3
psion|32|8.35|0.73|8.00|8.00|7/10|3
sorcerer|39|8.20|1.01|8.00|8.00|4/10|6
erudite|11|8.15|1.35|9.00|9.00|5/9|4

beguiler|34|7.79|0.73|8.00|8.00|6/9|3|<=== Strong Tier
wu jen|20|7.58|0.94|8.00|8.00|5/9|4
spirit shaman|21|7.29|1.95|7.00|9.00|3/10|7
favored soul|30|7.23|1.03|7.00|8.00|5/9|4
dread necromancer|30|7.10|1.16|7.00|7.00|3/10|7
ardent|12|7.07|1.31|7.00|6.00|5/9|4
warblade|35|6.88|0.90|7.00|7.00|4/8|4
crusader|37|6.62|1.12|7.00|7.00|4/8|4
swordsage|34|6.55|0.89|6.82|6.00|5/8|3
wilder|16|6.46|1.76|7.00|7.00|3/10|7
shugenja|19|6.44|1.26|7.00|7.00|4/8|4
dragonfire adept|23|6.29|0.92|6.00|7.00|4/8|4
duskblade|34|6.09|0.87|6.00|6.00|4/8|4
psychic warrior|32|6.02|1.18|6.00|6.00|3/8|5
warlock|38|6.00|0.90|6.00|6.00|4/8|4

factotum|31|5.98|1.02|6.00|6.00|4/8|4|<=== Average Tier
binder|28|5.96|1.37|6.00|6.00|3/8|5
totemist|14|5.64|1.28|5.50|5.00|3/7|4
rogue|39|5.62|1.27|5.00|5.00|3/8|5
bard|38|5.45|1.52|6.00|6.00|1/8|7
warmage|37|5.41|1.62|6.00|7.00|1/9|8
scout|36|5.27|1.03|5.00|6.00|3/7|4
shadowcaster|22|5.03|1.79|5.13|4.00|2/8|6
barbarian|39|4.99|1.16|5.00|5.00|2/8|6
ranger|39|4.94|1.07|5.00|5.00|2/7|5
incarnate|11|4.94|1.14|5.00|4.00|3/7|4
lurk|11|4.79|1.64|4.00|4.00|2/8|6
dragon shaman|26|4.61|1.44|5.00|5.00|2/7|5
knight|37|4.27|1.03|4.00|4.00|3/6|3
swashbuckler|37|4.24|1.36|4.00|5.00|1/7|6
paladin|40|4.22|1.15|4.00|5.00|1/6|5
soulborn|11|4.15|1.15|4.00|4.00|3/7|4

ninja|33|3.97|1.29|4.00|4.00|2/8|6|<=== Weak Tier
fighter|41|3.88|1.41|4.00|4.00|1/8|7
hexblade|36|3.81|1.33|3.50|3.00|2/7|5
divine mind|11|3.67|2.30|3.00|3.00|1/8|7
marshal|29|3.66|1.17|4.00|3.00|2/6|4
adept|5|3.60|1.52|3.00|3.00|2/6|4
monk|41|3.51|1.38|3.00|3.00|2/8|6
healer|29|3.21|2.06|3.00|2.00|1/9|8
spellthief|29|3.16|1.20|3.00|4.00|1/6|5
truenamer|18|2.66|1.68|2.93|3.00|0/6|6
expert|5|2.40|0.55|2.00|2.00|2/3|1
soulknife|25|2.35|1.22|2.00|2.00|0/5|5
samurai|37|1.69|0.66|2.00|2.00|1/3|2
warrior|6|1.67|0.82|1.50|1.00|1/3|2
aristocrat|5|1.40|0.55|1.00|1.00|1/2|1
commoner|5|0.60|0.55|1.00|1.00|0/1|1
[/table]

[Zincorium]

Alright, here's a good breakdown of damage possible at level 20 in core:

We will give the monk and the fighter an equally optimized strength, despite the fact that this hurts the monk in other ways. Various sides name spells/potion effects added to the characters.

Strength score of 18 (base, using point buy) + 4 (orc) + 5 (bonus for level) + 6 (belt of giant strength) + 5 (tomes/wishes) = 38 strength, +14 modifier.

Monk has a base attack bonus of +15/+10/+5. Add +5 bonus for amulet of mighty fists. Add +14 for strength score, and +1 for weapon focus.

+35/+35/+35/+30/+25. Or a single +35.

Fighter has a base attack bonus of +20/+15/+10/+5. +5 for magic weapon, +14 for strength score, +2 for weapon focus and greater weapon focus.

+41/+36/+31/+26 for a two handed weapon fighter. Alternately, single +41.

Monk has more attacks, fighter effectively gives up an attack at full to get a +5 bonus on first attack.

Damage:
Monk has 2d10, average 11 + 14 for str + 5 for amulet. 30 or so.

Fighter has 2d6, average 7 + 21 for str + 5 for sword + 4 for improved weapon specialization. 37 or so.

Straight damage favors the fighter. Power attack overwhelmingly favors the fighter. Single attacks overwhelmingly favor the fighter also.

[PhoenixRivers]

Grappling has its place, and when you cant grapple something then its still often possible to trip it instead.
A class with full bab have a +1 bonus per 4 levels above the monk, but i have allready shown in the last discussion that its compensatet for by flurry of blows, and thats aside from the fact that a full bab class isnt doing any real damage grappling, while its only a minor damage loss for a monk.


The problem with this is a penalty of +2 or +3, when already down by a couple, damages your chances more than the extra attack(s) help.

Extra attacks are only allowed when you start with a full attack.

Monk AC compares unfavorably to traditional Front line fighters. Yes, they get wis to AC. They give up armor for that. So, while a fighter gets a 17 AC for 150g and a single 16 stat (and Chain shirt)... or a 14 stat (Elf) or a 12 stat (in the case of a halfling).. A monk will need more in the way of stats to make this up. an extra 18, two 16's, or a 16 and a 14, respectively. Stat investment for AC parity is higher.

Monk HP by die type alone will be behind front line fighters by 2-4 at level 1, and 1-2 additional for each level thereafter. This is not factoring in the stat starved issue above. Monk, to keep AC with a fighter, must sacrifice either Accuracy/Damage (Strength) or Endurance (Con). Assume a 2 point con advantage for the fighter (16 vs 14), and this grows. You're looking at about a 20-30% HP gap. The AC and HP issue mean that if you're going to close for tripping/grappling, and your intent is to flurry, if you want to be close to as accurate, you have to take a potentially dangerous risk.

Monks have a better skillset than most fighters, true, but likely won't be able to spare the intelligence score to truly do it justice.

Monks do get better saves than most front line fighters. Possible exceptions at low to mid level? Paladins.

In essence, the monk was designed to fit in the rogue's role, but isn't as effective in that role as the rogue. Yeah, he can do fighter stuff better than the rogue... But he's not there to do fighter stuff. He's there to do rogue stuff.

If he's put in as the Fighter, he doesn't do fighter things quite as well as the fighter types. He does rogue stuff better than the fighter types, but he's not there to do rogue stuff. He's there to do fighter stuff.

In most games focus and clarity of purpose provide the greatest advantages. The monk is an unfocused class. Too much, all over the place. Kinda good at everything is the same as saying expert at nothing. And I'll take 2 experts in different fields over 2 kinda goods in both.

(on a side note, the same things which make something hard to grapple, make it hard to trip. Namely, size and strength.)

[NotMe]

I played an Enlightened fist in our last game and I was impressed.

Monks are really fun if he's covering his weaknesses with magic. I ought to look into their divine equivilent.

Sacred fist (monk / divine caster) is a reasonable class, not as powerful as a straight cleric, but then 95% of D&D isn't.

I saw a sacred fist used well in a campaign as a speedy anti-caster / grappler (though he was assisted by opponents being mainly humanoid and by his cleric buffs). Inquisition domain + dispel magic + buffs + high speed + grapple did spoil quite a few casters days.

[riddles]

i haven't had experience with enlightened fist but i've played a sacred fist and a monk/psychic warrior with tashalatora. both were a lot of fun and without a doubt stronger than a straight monk while maintaining the iconic features (flurry, unarmed damage)

[Kelpstrand]

Your experience might be different, but i have rarely fought anything larger than large, and thats still not to big to be either trippet or grappled most of the time.

Oh, so as long as you never face 95% of the Monster Manual, your Monk can totally trip and grapple.

The rest of the time, IE 95% of games, he can't.

[Bagelz]

This isn't entirely true anymore. The issue really used to be that an extra unarmed attack (1d20 +str in 3e, 2d10+str in 3.5) from flurry of blows doesn't make up for lack of magic items. Since monks need str/dex/and wis, they can't efficiently stack str for damage, so your probably looking at a 20 or 22. an average 15 damage doesn't make up for a +5 keen somethingburst weapon which will crit often and do +20 damage over a full round attack and probably burst once.

There are ways around this: kensai and newer enchantment suppliments can imbue natural weapons. Monks can use "monk weapons". Also even a fighter specializing in dual weilding for an extra attack will multiclass to get improved evasion. But yeah except for the move speed slow fall and flavor, your better to go fighter and get feats to emulate the monk.

[Gnaeus]

Tanking in 3.5 is very difficult to do; the best classes that can tank in a way that actually prevents monsters from hitting allies are the knight and crusader, since they actually have abilities that say "hit me, not him" and "you're not getting past me."

That isn't true. The best classes that can tank in a way that actually prevents monsters from hitting allies are the cleric and the druid. They can stand up front and use battlefield control to keep enemies from moving freely, and intelligent enemies won't ignore them. Then the crusader, who is actually a threat in his own right. Then paladin, who can do virtually everything knight can do with proper spell/wand selection, + a bunch of other things besides. I wouldn't put knight in any list described as "best".

[sonofzeal]

Well, potions of enlarge is 50 gold per bottle, and by the time the difference in full and medium bab gets over +2, you will have had the gold to use a potion in every serious battle for a long time.

Even if they did prepare freedom of movement, they would need time to cast it beforehand, and they would still run the risk of someone dispelling it, and as for dimension door, it still force the opponent to waste a action getting free.
- Potions of Enlarge are actually 250 gp, for some strange reason.

- Merely matching the difference isn't enough; you actually need a consistent advantage to make it a viable combat style.

- The "cost" of using the potion comes out of the missed round of combat, which is a fairly substantial penalty and gives the enemy spellcaster a free extra round (which he can use to Levitate out of your reach, or just cast Freedom of Movement)

- Dimension Door has no somatic components, so it can be cast "for free" in a grapple, and is a very popular spell to boot.

[lord_khaine]

Oh, so as long as you never face 95% of the Monster Manual, your Monk can totally trip and grapple.

The rest of the time, IE 95% of games, he can't.

then your average opponent is a lot bigger than mine, for about 90% of the opponents my monk fought had either a decent target for a trip or a grapple.

but back to my analysis of full BAB vs flurry.

as the target level i will pick 8, since its down around the place there melee classes are still meaningful.

As for our target monster, i chose something the full BAB class can hit 50% of the time, meaning he gets one 0.5 hit and a 0.25 hit, for a a total of 0.75 hits each round.
compared to this the monk gets 2 attacks at -3, and one more at minus 8.

this means he gets 2*0.35 hits and a 0.1 hit, for a total of 0.8 hits per round.

then if the full bab class power attacks for 2, he gets reduced to 0.55 hits per round, in return he gets +4 damage per round.
that mean that as soon as his average damage per hit gets above 13, then he will lose damage by power attacking, since 0.75 hits multiplied by 14 is 10.5, while 0.55 hits multiplied by 18 is 9.9, meaning that at this level power attack will actualy Reduce his damage

As for the difference between the full bab class and the monk, then just a difference of 2 average damage per hit is enough to give the full bab class a lead in damage, though this damage lead is assumed to come from the full bab class using a 2handet weapon, and therefore it dont have anything to do with having a full bab.

So here the difference in damage will in the end depend on how big the difference is between the average damage per hit of the 2 classes.

[Gnaeus]

That is true if...

The monks base damage is as good as the THFer's.

(can be done, not in core)

The monks strength is as good as the THFer's.

(Unlikely, as the monk has much larger MAD issues)

The THF'er doesn't have a weapon adding extra damage.

(Unlikely at level 8)

Your statement about power attack is misleading. It is true that sometimes PA reduces overall damage. But it gives the option to really spike damage when facing a low AC, high HP opponent, or when better hit chances arrive as a result of buff/debuff spells or battlefield conditions.

Yes, this assumes that your full BaB character is a THFer, or a TWFer or Sword and Boarder with a weapon that he COULD use two handed when that is to his advantage (like most of them.) But since Sword and Board and TWFing are also sub par, even if you proved that the monk was even with them, you have only proved that you are as good as a badly built fighter. In other words, Monks are fully as good as CW samurai, + some extra abilities! Yay?

[woodenbandman]

Closest I've come to playing a monk was a druid with a monk belt. It was pretty cool. If I could do that again, I'd do it Wildshape Ranger/Master of Many Forms//Monk/whatever in gestalt.

[Kaiyanwang]

The monk could be done better, that's IMHO a fact. But I don't trust in class tiers and "that's useless" so much, until the party and the DM work together and /or you have enough cheese to put into your build.

Said this, my gaming group had a monk in a campaing gone til epic: he was not so great in combat (the carachter was awesome but this is pointless of course FOR THE POWER DISCUSSION PURPOSE of course).

Nevertheless, with all the buffs and ad hoc items crafted by the wizard, he was able to increase greatly his AC and defenses in general, so to be able to flurry a crapload of attacks (8-10 round, no cooldowns - we had only 3.0 at the time, more or less), missing a NON DEBUFFED enemy until his vorpal hands procced.

He was this: an unkillable thing with procs and abilities even not bad like vorpal weapons and the ability to deflec infinite orbs, disintegrates and other ranged touch spells) even NAKED.

And they were imaginative players (a little bit morons, but imaginative) so a lot of plans involved someone naked, transformed, away from the party and so on.

[Fluffles]

Not to mention the feat/ability that lets power attack reduce your AC instead of Attack Bonus.

But yeah, try a Insectile two-headed Monk wielding one of your Monk weapons. 6 Attacks in a standard action, 18 attacks in a full (w/o FoB), and 36 attacks with FoB.

[Kelpstrand]

but back to my analysis of full BAB vs flurry.

as the target level i will pick 8, since its down around the place there melee classes are still meaningful.

As for our target monster, i chose something the full BAB class can hit 50% of the time, meaning he gets one 0.5 hit and a 0.25 hit, for a a total of 0.75 hits each round.
compared to this the monk gets 2 attacks at -3, and one more at minus 8.

this means he gets 2*0.35 hits and a 0.1 hit, for a total of 0.8 hits per round.

then if the full bab class power attacks for 2, he gets reduced to 0.55 hits per round, in return he gets +4 damage per round.
that mean that as soon as his average damage per hit gets above 13, then he will lose damage by power attacking, since 0.75 hits multiplied by 14 is 10.5, while 0.55 hits multiplied by 18 is 9.9, meaning that at this level power attack will actualy Reduce his damage

As for the difference between the full bab class and the monk, then just a difference of 2 average damage per hit is enough to give the full bab class a lead in damage, though this damage lead is assumed to come from the full bab class using a 2handet weapon, and therefore it dont have anything to do with having a full bab.

So here the difference in damage will in the end depend on how big the difference is between the average damage per hit of the 2 classes.

I love it when people break out this incredibly fake version of an argument about power attack.

Level 8 Fighter has a Str of 26 at least, +8 BAB, +2 weapon, that's +18 at least.

Some ACs for CR 8 enemies. 20/20/20/23/20/22/17/18/23/14/18/18/25

Excuse me for thinking that 'enemy he has a 50% chance of hitting' is basically non existent.

[Gnaeus]

Said this, my gaming group had a monk in a campaing gone til epic: he was not so great in combat (the carachter was awesome but this is pointless of course FOR THE POWER DISCUSSION PURPOSE of course).

Nevertheless, with all the buffs and ad hoc items crafted by the wizard, he was able to increase greatly his AC and defenses in general, so to be able to flurry a crapload of attacks (8-10 round, no cooldowns - we had only 3.0 at the time, more or less), missing a NON DEBUFFED enemy until his vorpal hands procced.

He was this: an unkillable thing with procs and abilities even not bad like vorpal weapons and the ability to deflec infinite orbs, disintegrates and other ranged touch spells) even NAKED.

That is fair enough. With dedicated crafting and a dedicated wizard standing behind you, a clever player can be effective with any class. In the right campaign with the right party, any class can be fun.

But, he could have been more effective in combat classes other than monk, or with only a 1 or 2 level monk dip. A well played commoner with good enough crafted gear and a wizard throwing buffs on him can be effective. Honestly, the statement that he was not so great in combat even with that kind of help is pretty damning.

[tyckspoon]

I love it when people break out this incredibly fake version of an argument about power attack.

Level 8 Fighter has a Str of 26 at least, +8 BAB, +2 weapon, that's +18 at least.

Some ACs for CR 8 enemies. 20/20/20/23/20/22/17/18/23/14/18/18/25

Excuse me for thinking that 'enemy he has a 50% chance of hitting' is basically non existent.

The point stands, but I think you're overestimating the Strength value the Fighter should hit. I would go with a working value of 20 for level 8; 16 base +2 Enhancement +2 levelups. It should not always be assumed that the character is an Orc (Dwarfs are pretty awesome too, and nobody sane picks half-orc, so there's not a lot of alternate racial options for a Str bonus), and I really don't like assuming a starting 18 unless the actual point-buy value or other generation method in use is specified.

Still, in order for there to be an enemy with enough AC for a 50% hit rate, you generally have to go above-CR, which means you have an entirely different problem to deal with.. which is that neither Fighters nor Monks are much good at dealing with 'difficult' monsters and are liable to get eaten.

[Starbuck_II]

I've found the Pathfinder monk (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/monk.html#monk)to be a reasonable change - it gets a better attack bonus for the Flurry of Blows, which helps.

Drawback penalty to hit never decreases.
3.5 Monk Penalty descreased at level 5 and 9, (to 0).

Although, full bab while Flurry helps the monk even withthe penalty never going away.

So, of course, pathfinder monk is better: hard to makie it worse,

[Gnaeus]

Level 8 Fighter has a Str of 26 at least, +8 BAB, +2 weapon, that's +18 at least.

Some ACs for CR 8 enemies. 20/20/20/23/20/22/17/18/23/14/18/18/25

Excuse me for thinking that 'enemy he has a 50% chance of hitting' is basically non existent.

That isn't always true. My DMs are fond of giving melee enemies a couple of rounds to drink potions or a nearby buffing ally. One of those enemies + potions of mage armor and shield and you are back at near 50%. But Kelpstrand is right that 50% is very low for the general hit% for a dedicated meleer.

[Eldariel]

Not to mention the feat/ability that lets power attack reduce your AC instead of Attack Bonus.

In Core, that doesn't exist, but Tripping+Invisibility+Flanking+whatever does and it just so happens that when you have lots of things buffing your To Hit, being able to convert it into damage becomes more worthwhile.

A level 8 Fighter hitting an opponent only 50% of the time? That must be quite the opponent. What we need are numbers...and since the Fighter is Core, I guess we'll assume the Weapon Focus-line since what the hell else is he going to spend his feats after Power Attack/Improved Trip/EWP: Spiked Chain on?


Treant, Blue Slaad as first two CR 8s I could think of both have AC 20. An NPC S&B Fighter (by DMG) has AC 23. Our Fighter can have To Hit equal to:
8 BAB + 8 Str (if Orc; 6 if Human) + 2 Weapon Focus + 2 Weapon quite trivially.

This is without Trip (+4 To Hit; and yes, with Enlarge, most of the huge creatures are still Trippable), Invisibility (+2 To Hit, no Dex), Flanking (+2 To Hit), etc.

Regardless, even without any of these, Power Attack adds 5 points to the average damage vs. AC 20 and a point or two vs. AC 23 on full attack, and more on single attacks (see this (http://direpress.bin.sh/tools/power.html) calculator for exact numbers; I'm working with 8 BAB, +12 Other Factors, 2d4+12 Str + 2 Weapon + 2 Specialization Damage at 20/x2 for Spiked Chain). Then toss the 4 extra from Trip or such and watch the damage soar skyhigh.


Anyways, Fighter:
- Full attacks AC 20 for 44.15 damage
- Single attacks for 26.04
- Full attacks AC 23 for 35.43 damage
- Single attacks for 21.31

This is assuming no haste, which again obviously favors the Fighter given that his singular attacks deal more damage and he can make more use out of the extra To Hit.

The Monk with same Str, Weapon Focus and Amulet of Mighty Fists +2 (somehow; this is impossible by WBL, but maybe he had a Druid help him cast Greater Magic Fang or something):
- Full attacks AC 20 for 37.43 damage
- Single attacks for 14.64 damage
- Full attacks AC 23 for 30.10 damage
- Single attacks for 12.20 damage


Note that with Improved Natural Attack, the Monk does stay competitive in full attacks before we account for trips & al. The numbers come down at:
- Full attacks AC 20 for 45.88 damage
- Single attacks for 17.95 damage
- Full attacks AC 23 for 36.90 damage
- Single attacks for 14.96 damage

If we give the Fighter Greatsword instead of Spiked Chain (since we aren't accounting for reach nor tripping which are the major advantages to using Spiked Chain, this seems sensible):
- Full attacks AC 20 for 49.44 damage
- Single attacks for 29.04 damage
- Full attacks AC 23 for 40.09 damage
- Single attacks for 23.92 damage


And if we toss both Haste, we end up with Fighter:
- Full attacks AC 20 for 83.54 damage
- Single attacks for 30.85 damage
- Full attacks AC 23 for 68.58 damage
- Single attacks for 25.57 damage

Monk:
- Full attacks AC 20 for 66.83 damage
- Single attacks for 18.95 damage
- Full attacks AC 23 for 54.86 damage
- Single attacks for 15.96 damage


Across the board, under the same conditions, the Fighter comes out way ahead. Now, if you account for Trips, Flanks, Charges & al. the Fighter comes out even further ahead. And note how the Monk needs a full attack to really deal damage while the Fighter's single attacks (charging was not accounted for, but probably ups them quite a bit) are still painful.

And this is before accounting for the fact that the Fighter can wield a reach weapon and get more additional attacks from Combat Reflexes & al. and that Fighters losing Trip-checks aren't nearly as inconvenienced by it as Monks (they can just Quick Draw another weapon and continue like nothing happened while Monks risk the counter-Trip).


I hope we can put this nonsense behind us now; the Monk has, and will never match other classes in terms of damage output and is even worse off when it cannot full attack. It also doesn't pull off control role required for tanking quite as well and lacks in HD size.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Level 8 Fighter has a Str of 26 at least, +8 BAB, +2 weapon, that's +18 at least.
At least 26 STR? At 8th level?

Might be that I'm hanging with the least munchkin players in the world, but that seems incredibly excessive. I assume it can't be done with Core, yes?

---

Aside from the big STR, why focus on Power Attack cheese? Monks can Power Attack if they want. They can use TWF if they want.

What are we trying to balance Monks against? Peak-damage-cheese wizard/cleric/druid types, or other martial style classes?
Shouldn't we let the sword-swinging dedicated fighting machine Fighter (for example, other weapons are available) be a little better at straight damage dealing than the more versatile Monk?

I'm a homebrewer, so I prefer to look for fixes once everyone is agreed that a class isn't well-built.
Does the BAB = level fix work? Does Pathfinder's better Flurry work?

[Kaiyanwang]

But, he could have been more effective in combat classes other than monk, or with only a 1 or 2 level monk dip. A well played commoner with good enough crafted gear and a wizard throwing buffs on him can be effective. Honestly, the statement that he was not so great in combat even with that kind of help is pretty damning.

Man, not to seem harsh, and I see monk problems, but please, stop the commoner thing. One thing is say that a class should be made better, one thing is make things trivial.

Nevertheless, consider that in that campaign the most ineffective player was the DRUID one (absolutely not useless but the less effective), so, IMHO, the Skill of the Player > Built > Class. Mantra.

More, the wiz builded things for everybody because was his character, but the most useful tihng I saw for a monk was a druid buff with an obscene bonus to wis. And again, it depended from the enemies and the situation.. sometimes the party had to act transmuted, naked, or the caster had to keep buff all the time for dispels or strange magic, and so on.

AGAINST my argumentation I've to say that the monk player was very lucky: vorpal and save or die procced very frequently..

[Starbuck_II]

What are we trying to balance Monks against? Peak-damage-cheese wizard/cleric/druid types, or other martial style classes?
Shouldn't we let the sword-swinging dedicated fighting machine Fighter (for example, other weapons are available) be a little better at straight damage dealing than the more versatile Monk?

I'm a homebrewer, so I prefer to look for fixes once everyone is agreed that a class isn't well-built.
Does the BAB = level fix work? Does Pathfinder's better Flurry work?

Wait when did the Monk become Versatile?

[Eldariel]

Might be that I'm hanging with the least munchkin players in the world, but that seems incredibly excessive. I assume it can't be done with Core, yes?

Orc, 18 Str, level-ups, +2 items.


Aside from the big STR, why focus on Power Attack cheese? Monks can Power Attack if they want. They can use TWF if they want.

What ****ing cheese? Seriously, why is everything "cheese" now? We're focusing on Power Attack since it's the only efficient way to deal martial damage in Core, so we're comparing Monks to efficient damage dealers and noticing that they aren't dealing as much damage.

Sure, Monk can Power Attack with Two-Handers once he picks up weapon proficiencies (or uses Quarterstaff) and gives up his flurry, but at that point he's a Fighter without bonus feats & medium BAB. The reason we're focusing on Monk going Unarmed is that it's literally the only thing a Monk has going on for him.


What are we trying to balance Monks against? Peak-damage-cheese wizard/cleric/druid types, or other martial style classes?
Shouldn't we let the sword-swinging dedicated fighting machine Fighter (for example, other weapons are available) be a little better at straight damage dealing than the more versatile Monk?

I'm a homebrewer, so I prefer to look for fixes once everyone is agreed that a class isn't well-built.
Does the BAB = level fix work? Does Pathfinder's better Flurry work?

You shouldn't be penalized for playing a Monk. Sure, they deal less damage, but they also do control worse (even though you'd THINK unarmed specialist would be e.g. a good grappler & tripper), they do AoOs worse, they do move&attack worse (sure, they move further beyond level ~12 but they can only make one attack for sorry damage after movement) and so on.

In the optimum scenario, Monks would have their strengths and Fighters would have their strengths and everyone would be happy. More importantly, in optimal scenario, Monks could synergise their class features internally to have great mobility AND be solid unarmed damage dealers and so on. They should have a role; something they do in a party.


All the fixes help; the question is what's the optimal point.

[Indon]

Question... would a monk make a good gestalt for a wizard?

Monks are a strong gestalt class in general, due to having a large variety of passive abilities, and, as you imply, they tend to be pretty good in computer renditions of D&D as well - any campaign in which the Monk can put his inherent survivability (about as high as noncasters get) to good use is going to be good for the Monk (So, for instance, if your DM has a highly Gygaxian playstyle).

Don't gestalt a maneuver user with a spellcaster if you want to be optimal. Spells will almost always be a better use of your actions than maneuvers.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Wait when did the Monk become Versatile?
Since they are your alternative skill monkey.

Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.
Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana/religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
Evasion (Ex), Fast Movement (Ex), Still Mind (Ex), Ki Strike (Su), Slow Fall (Ex), Purity of Body (Ex), Wholeness of Body (Su), Improved Evasion (Ex), Diamond Body (Su), Abundant Step (Su), Diamond Soul (Ex), Quivering Palm (Su),Timeless Body (Ex), Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex), Empty Body (Su), Perfect Self.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier.
Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str). Bonus Feats.

[Tavar]

Of course, if you go skill monkey it means you have to get worse at one of your other areas, as it adds Int as a necessary attribute, leaving Cha as your only dump. And you still need rogue levels to get trapfinding, plus consider that rogues make more effective combatants and skill monkeys all around.


Why is this a good strategy for monks again?

[Kurald Galain]

Since they are your alternative skill monkey.
No they're not. That would be the bard, ranger, or even wizard.

Sure, they've got better skills than the fighter, but being second-worst isn't saying much. Also, most of the "special abilities" you list are unrelated to skills.

Taking skills requires the monk to invest in intelligence. Assuming 24-point buy, what stats would you suggest for your monk? Or is the monk only viable if you have lucky rolls on rolling for random stats, or if you go Schrodinger?

[Kaiyanwang]

What ****ing cheese?


True. I wish that other maneuver feats would be well done like the 7 for chargers.

Said this, you know why I love charge feats? because remember an attack that my elf was able to do in basic.. I don't really know how's in english, in italian was Schiantare (smash). It added on a charge the whole Str SCORE, a lot for the HPs of the time.

For the Int monk: there is Kung Fu genius, but again, is another feat.. and from Dragon Magazine.

Nevertheless... KFG is great for a flavourful gestalt Monk // Wu Jen. Isn't wu jen the one with the giant size spell?

[Sinfire Titan]

Well, there's Intuitive Attack, which is another use of a feat but it allows to use Wisdom instead. Or Kung Fu Genius/Carmendine Monk for using Int; the latter one isn't a bad feat actually.

This brings up another of the Monk's problems: Feat starvation. Not counting IUS, they get 3 total bonus feats over 20 levels.



What are the chances that a non-humanoid, non-caster creature has Freedom of Movement? What are the chances that a non-caster has a Ring of Freedom of Movement (that's just the DM giving you nice loot; a good DM would think twice about that)

Question: How do you grapple a Ghost? Or a Gargantuan Dragon? Or a CR 2 flier at or below ECL 3rd?


Really, there are other ways to beat grapple which are easier, and those have their own way to be handled. Size can be countered with size; there's a nice feat (which is not Improved Grapple) which can level the playing field with a larger creature.

Fun fact: Grapple bonus and stats increase far faster than the feats that narrow the gap. Also, feat starvation.

And Totemists do Grappling better (really, Totemists do everything the Monk wants to do, but better).


Grapple isn't useless; it's a sub-par tactic. It requires a lot to be fixed into working, but the cheater's way to evade it is either: A) caster-only (or manifester, as well), or B) quite expensive and an odd choice for a DM to use. Just recall, you aren't always playing on a wizards-as-rulers campaign.
Tattoos with the spell, on the other hand...

Or Totemist. Or Wild Shape Ranger. Or just a really high Str and a size bonus (try grappling a Huge Bloodhulk at ECL 10 as a Monk).



Monks get Evasion + high Ref save + they depend on Dex for a lot of stuff, so don't think it's a bad thing. And they are sure to get Improved Evasion: a Rogue may choose not to get it. It can choose feats, after all...

Why bother? Why would anyone drop a Fireball on themselves when Stinking Cloud does so much better?



You forgot to say how Feather Fall is much better. But couple it with a wall, and the Tumble ability, and you have a not-so-bad Feather Fall replacement.

Think about the circumstances you need: You need a drop of no greater than X height with a wall next to it, max ranks in jump and tumble, and X levels of Monk. The ranks can be neglected if you have 20 levels of Monk, but that requires 20 levels in an underpowered base class that gets replaced by a racial trait (Silverbrow Human, Dragonborn gives you wings, or Raptorian).

Hell, one of those options costs a literal 100gp. It's actually cheaper and much more useful than even the Ring of Featherfall.


Originally, they had the equivalent of a +1 or +2 for the same thing (reducing DR, not as an enhancement). Though, on that moment, a DR 20/+3 was pretty solid. That exchange of DR nerfed the Monk's ability, but it actually nerfed DR even more.


DR/Magic or +X sucked anyway due to Greater Magic Weapon, and monsters with DR of equal or greater value.


They also get DR-punching against chaotic creatures. Oh, and they also get to bypass Adamantine...which is good when you face constructs? I mean, nearly all constructs have some form of really solid DR/adamantine...


Newsflash: Their ability to overcome Chaotic DR? Exists in a dozen creatures in the Core MM alone. That's out of, what, a hundred or so enemies? Adding more books only makes it worse, as Chaotic creatures with DR /Lawful are fairly rare. Even Demons, one of the 5 most commonly printed encounter types (there's at least 2 demonic creatures in every MM, usually 4 or 5), usually has DR/Good or Cold Iron, not Lawful or Adamantine.

The ability to ignore DR/Adamantine comes at level 15. You can easily face an enemy with DR/Adamantine as early as level 1 (Warforged). It isn't that useful at all.



If you ever get surprise-infected with a disease, it may just save your life.

Or you could just wait 24 hours and ask the Cleric for a Remove Disease, a 2nd level spell. Or just use the wands of it that every adventuring party with access to the magic item section of the DMG carries around.

Even barring those, the Heal skill performs far better than making Fortitude saves. Fun fact: Heal isn't a class skill for Monks. It is a class skill for the Ranger though. Even an untrained Heal check is usually enough to beat the mundane diseases because the DC for them is so obnoxiously low.



Did you know that they are immune to Cloudkill's venom as well? Or...Venomfire? Or the Fleshraker's venom, I might add? Those are three spells and/or natural abilities that are tied to poison.


Venomfire is questionable. RAW, even if it is immune to the venom it takes acid damage. RAI, probably not, but the fact remains that they are not immune to the damage dealt by Venomfire, just the effect that triggers venomfire.

And by the time a Monk has immunity to poison (11th), the Druid has all ready exchanged his Fleshraker for a Bear. Because everything is worse with bears.
(http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitleeyyr8ln8spjv) Or a shark, depending on the campaign. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitle5tvtdb76)



Or escape to live another day? I mean, which Wizard will make their lairs unable to allow teleportation...

The dumb ones who ban Conjuration. You asked.

Which can be easily and horribly beaten. It's a shame SR doesn't act like real AC, meaning that it could stack if it comes from a different source.



Easy? Well, at that level, and if you properly raise your Wis (you want it for other stuff), you're speaking of a DC of 20-21. A normal low-Fort character will probably have a +5 base, perhaps a +2-+3 by Con, and give or take +5 because of a very expensive Cloak of Resistance. That's still 6/7 of 20 chances in failing.



Except you can speak with creatures that don't have a language. Try having Tongues beat that...

Detect Thoughts>>>>>>>>Monk. Awaken>>>>>>>>>>Monk. Hell, if they really need it: Limited Wish. 300xp is dirt cheap at that level.



Look at it. It's Tongues meets Speak with Plants meets Speak with Animals. By RAW. At level 17th, when you don't even need to bother learning another language since you're pretty famous enough to have people speak Common just for you.

At level 17, my characters don't need to speak or listen to anyone outside of the party. Why? Because Divination spells are better than a fluff class feature obtained at level 17.


Well, it depends. You could be capable of turning into an Outsider if you had a way to have Alter Self, or Polymorph. Laughable, really, but it's not a half-bad idea.


It's awesome but impractical. Great ability, being able to shift into outsiders, but not worth 20 levels in Monk. Incarnate, maybe.


Well, it's actually one of the best class-based boosts to movement. An ubercharger would dream to have such a massive boost to movement. Actually, it's one of the reasons why it doesn't make any sense; you give all that movement to a character who might not probably be able to use it.


Fact: Chargers get by just fine with a fly speed of 40ft or faster. That's easy to get.




Not all Monks take Improved Grapple. Stunning Fist is also available, which remains quite effective throughout the life of the Monk. Actually, you get a huge load of uses out of it, more than you'll ever possibly need per day. It has a better DC than Quivering Palm. And it has upgrades to it (Weakening Touch, Pain Touch, Freezing the Lifeblood) Second level has either Combat Reflexes (there's a way to make the Monk pretty awesome as a opportunist) or Deflect Arrows (which doesn't reflect just arrows, mind you). Sixth level is a tad less good, but it has either Improved Disarm (get the favorite weapon of the melee character out, or grab its items), or Improved Trip (which blends real, real well with the above Combat Reflexes). You can replace those feats with a few limited others, if you wish.


Fact: Stunning Fist isn't worth using. 1/round, low save DC (against the best save in the MM, Fort), and relies on you connecting or else you waste it. While a few of the feats based on it are good, they require you to invest so heavily in Stunning Fist that you become a One-Trick Pony. Anything immune to Crits negates the effects too...



Still, consider there are reasons why the Monk still has hope. It's not CW Samurai, which is definitely an attempt to make a class out of a build (and a poor one at that), or a Commoner, or a Truenamer (and a Truenamer can be fixed, too). The "bad AC" gain can be acquired through a Monk's Belt (which, oddly, most people consider a good choice if you don't wear armor), for example. The duality as a natural weapon and a manufactured weapon makes the Monk's unarmed strike a very decent choice (you can either get GMW or GMF out of it, and there's a Necklace that allows you to enchant your Unarmed Strike as if it were a weapon), it has all three good saves (only the Favored Soul has that as well), and even if it's MAD, oddly enough it requires high Dex (which raises Reflex), Con (which raises Fort) and Wis (which raises Will).


Monk is also a class out of a build. Unarmed Swordsage, Totemist, hell, even the Fighter if built right. The few class features that cannot be replicated via feats are replicable via magic items. Pretty cheap ones too. ANd, for the record, SR is replicable via feat.


I won't say it's awesome; I think I have stated before why it is a deception. It is a deception because it is a concept that wasn't ever fixed. Errata never aided the Monk, ever. Had they errata'ed the Monk, perhaps it could have been much better. Perhaps if they noticed what they did with the OA Ninja, or the Swordsage, they could have fixed the Monk to be awesome. But I don't say it's so horrible that it becomes a cancer to any build (quite the contrary)

A 2 level dip into Monk is considered a tumor that helps you for most characters. 6 levels in Monk means you are a dedicated Monk, and should plan on taking one of the many PrCs or other options, but not another Monk level. 11 levels in Monk means you've shot yourself and haven't died yet.

[Indon]

Oh, and one more thing to note about the monk: They do a lot of stuff in a mediocre fashion - so while for any given thing (aside from their passive defenses) they can be replaced, it takes a lot of people to replace them.

In that sense they suffer from the same fifth-wheel problem of classes like the Bard, but the Monk doesn't have a way to get full casting (which is the big reason why people aren't still badmouthing the Bard on D&D forums nowadays).

This also makes the Monk a good class for small, 1-2 person groups.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Orc, 18 Str, level-ups, +2 items.Orc is not a PHB race.

Sure, Monk can Power Attack with Two-Handers once he picks up weapon proficiencies (or uses Quarterstaff) and gives up his flurry, but at that point he's a Fighter without bonus feats & medium BAB. The reason we're focusing on Monk going Unarmed is that it's literally the only thing a Monk has going on for him.
You don't have to give up Flurry to Power Attack as far as I can see.


You shouldn't be penalized for playing a Monk. Sure, they deal less damage, but they also do control worse (even though you'd THINK unarmed specialist would be e.g. a good grappler & tripper), they do AoOs worse, they do move&attack worse (sure, they move further beyond level ~12 but they can only make one attack for sorry damage after movement) and so on.

In the optimum scenario, Monks would have their strengths and Fighters would have their strengths and everyone would be happy. More importantly, in optimal scenario, Monks could synergise their class features internally to have great mobility AND be solid unarmed damage dealers and so on. They should have a role; something they do in a party.

All the fixes help; the question is what's the optimal point.
Agreed, they're not good. I'm wholly prepared to agree that Monks by the RAW are quite sucky at fighting, especially at higher levels (at low levels, everyone is at the mercy of the dice, with most attacks and checks having near-50% failure rates, so those BAB differences don't glare so much).

But is dealing damage all of what the Monk is for, or should we look to give them another schtick? It looks like WotC wanted them to be versatile and skilled and serene with all those abilities and class skills... Just cause they failed to build it right doesn't mean it can't be fixed.

Here's a proposal: along with the PF Flurry fix (which you may have noticed, I like), let the monk have WIS adjustment to skill points in place of INT.

[huttj509]

Primary Monk problem:

It's deceptive. It looks capable of so much more than it actually is without adding houserules (such as enchantable handwraps, even NWN has gloves and such that add more damage to unarmed attacks).

Main problem with flurry is that it requires a full attack. But monks get extra movement. One monk ability renders the other moot (your choice of which at any given time). This means that if movement is involved, monks get 1 attack at lower BAB (and possibly lower to hit bonus, due to MAD and others having enchanted weapons) than fighters, rangers, or barbarians. Now, whether the math of "more attacks, less to hit with each" actually works, I don't know. I'm not up to date on the scaling of monster AC compared to PC BAB. Monks can use enchantable weapons, but then they don't get the larger damage dice (another case of one monk ability rendering another moot).

Now admittedly, since at high levels the base damage of the weapon is minor compared to the bonuses, a monk with kukri/etc. may be decent when they're enchanted, but they are still more affected by the need in 3.5 to be toe to toe slugging it out due to full attacks.

Monks get a large smattering of uniquely named abilities, causing many GMs to actually assume they're overpowered, without realizing the actual effect of "tongue of sun and moon." Nice flavor ability, but does not really add anything to the combat capabilities (since combat, or noncombat skills ((rogue, e.x.)) are where most classes differ really, anyone can RP based on their stats, regardless of class). Nonmagical diseases pale in threat to the magical ones, so that's primarily a flavor ability. The slow fall by wall is fun, but requires the monk to take a path that the rest of the party cannot easily take. Scouting before the party climbs down could work, but a red light's flashing in my head saying "NEVER SPLIT THE PARTY!"

The larger unarmed damage die is nice, but if you're using that, you're not getting "shock holy flaming burst" damage, since there are no enchantable handwraps without houserules, so it compensates for that, but you still don't have the +x to hit.

While I recognize the idea that some classes are better than others as an argument for mastery, I dislike a whole class being an attractive trap for new players.

Play me off Ackbar!

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[tyckspoon]

Orc is not a PHB race.

You don't have to give up Flurry to Power Attack as far as I can see.


It is an MM1 race, which makes it Core. PHB-only is even more restrictive and offers no good choices for a +Strength race.

And no, you don't have to give up Flurry to Power Attack, but you do give up the 1.5x Str bonus and the 2x returns on Power Attack, because all Flurry attacks are treated as if made one-handed. Which pretty thoroughly wrecks the point of using a two-handed weapon for extra damage.

[Eldariel]

Orc is not a PHB race.

It's a Core race.


You don't have to give up Flurry to Power Attack as far as I can see.

The only two-hander you can flurry with is the Quarterstaff. One-handed PA isn't worth it and Quarterstaff damage is so far behind UA Strike damage that the Quarterstaff Flurry just doesn't really work; not to mention, Monk's intristically lower attack bonus lends itself far less to Power Attack.


Agreed, they're not good. I'm wholly prepared to agree that Monks by the RAW are quite sucky at fighting, especially at higher levels (at low levels, everyone is at the mercy of the dice, with most attacks and checks having near-50% failure rates, so those BAB differences don't glare so much).

But is dealing damage all of what the Monk is for, or should we look to give them another schtick? It looks like WotC wanted them to be versatile and skilled and serene with all those abilities and class skills... Just cause they failed to build it right doesn't mean it can't be fixed.

Here's a proposal: along with the PF Flurry fix (which you may have noticed, I like), let the monk have WIS adjustment to skill points in place of INT.

Uh, I feel they should be solid in combat maneuvers. And variety of "Stunning Fist"-type attacks. They really just need something to do in-combat. Oh, and 6+Int skill points. They train those skills their whole lives, for Gawd's Sake.

[Steward]

Oh, and one more thing to note about the monk: They do a lot of stuff in a mediocre fashion - so while for any given thing (aside from their passive defenses) they can be replaced, it takes a lot of people to replace them.

That's true. However, that becomes less important in three or four or even five person groups. A monk can be a mediocre copy of a healer, rogue, or fighter, but if obviously if you already have one of those (or, hell, a party of a druid, a wizard, and a rogue) then a monk is pretty redundant. As you said, that only comes up if you are in a two person game.


Monks get a large smattering of uniquely named abilities, causing many GMs to actually assume they're overpowered,


It tricks some players too. :smile: If you go buy the sheer number of abilities and how creatively they're named, then the wizard is the weakest class (really, "scribe scroll"? how lame!!!) and you'd have entire parties filled with monks and Paladins.


But is dealing damage all of what the Monk is for, or should we look to give them another schtick? It looks like WotC wanted them to be versatile and skilled and serene with all those abilities and class skills... Just cause they failed to build it right doesn't mean it can't be fixed.

I agree. One way to fix the Monk is to take a much better class like Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Fighter, Sorcerer, Psion, Ranger, Rogue, Expert, Truenamer, or Commoner as a Gestalt.

[Kurald Galain]

Primary Monk problem:

It's deceptive. It looks capable of so much more than it actually is without adding houserules
This, very much so.

It goes to show that you can still sell a poor product (i.e. class) with good advertising.

[Sir Giacomo]

To the OP:
No, monks are not that bad. Check out the guide in my sig for mainly core suugestions. As you may have realised by now, the issue is highly controversial :smallsmile:

Some ideas:
1. Monks are excellent damage dealers, as long as you realise their two biggest assets: 1) highest base damage with unarmed strikes that can easily be increased and 2) highest number of attacks.
Example: with enlarge and improved natural attack and monk's belt you can get 6d8 base dice per hit from level 15 in Core. More with polymorph effects. Outside core, the sky is the limit although many DMs will stop you at 24d8 per hit or so.
Multiply this with max 10 attacks in core (flurry, divine power, TWF tree, haste) or 30ish attacks outside core of more, and you get damage at least on par with the other melee classes.

2. There is no MAD problem for the monk. Check out my guide. Intuitive attack feat was already provided as an example.

3. Grapple and Trip are excellent melee options, in particular for lower levels.

4. The defensive 24/7 qualities of the monk are the best in the core game. Other classes either have to get this as items or as long-lasting spells. So your first impression was largely correct imo.

5. Make good use of the stealth skills in combat.

6. A one-sentence suggestion for unarmed swordsage from tome of battle is NOT a replacement for the monk without a lot of houseruling and work for the DM.

7. While building a strong monk maybe somewhat more challenging, it is certainly worthwhile!

- Giacomo

[Kelpstrand]

At least 26 STR? At 8th level?

Might be that I'm hanging with the least munchkin players in the world, but that seems incredibly excessive. I assume it can't be done with Core, yes?

Of course it can be done in Core. That's all it is. Core Fighter 8. Maybe you rolled or are a mad but still less mad than monk trip monkey and low pb so you only have Str 24, but still.

Alternatively, you could have a +4 item at that level and be at 28, or you could be a Barbarian since you are a full attack monkey and be at 28 or 32 in a rage.

Of course, you still have tons of other bonuses I didn't even factor in, such as +4 from Prone, +2 from Haste, +2 from Flanking, +1-2 from spells, +2 from Weapon Focus line if you aren't a Barb, +2 from invisibility (when they are glitterdusted) ect. You aren't going to have all of those all the time, some characters might not have Weapon Focus (in Core? Why not?) and some characters might not be trippers. But that's why I'm treating +18 as a minimum line. If you want to argue that +17 is the minimum, I'd disagree, but whatever.


Aside from the big STR, why focus on Power Attack cheese? Monks can Power Attack if they want. They can use TWF if they want.

Power Attack is not cheese. Monks can power attack at 1 for 1, and they get less out of it, because they are likely to be looking at 50% or lower chance of hitting.


What are we trying to balance Monks against? Peak-damage-cheese wizard/cleric/druid types, or other martial style classes?
Shouldn't we let the sword-swinging dedicated fighting machine Fighter (for example, other weapons are available) be a little better at straight damage dealing than the more versatile Monk?

I don't know about everyone else, but I'm not trying to balance Monks against anything. They are terrible. I already have a good well balanced, fun, interesting Monk class to play that isn't the PHB monk, so I don't need to do anything to fix the PHB Monk.

It's balanced against a Wizard 5/PrCs 15 using most all Wizards books except Incantatrix.

The Sword swinging fighter should only be little better at straight damage if the Monk is actually versatile, in the actual 3.5 game using the two classes, the PHB Fighter is much much much better at straight damage, and the Monk isn't more versatile in any way until level 17 when it can talk to stuff, and that's still all it has.


I'm a homebrewer, so I prefer to look for fixes once everyone is agreed that a class isn't well-built.
Does the BAB = level fix work? Does Pathfinder's better Flurry work?

Your first question should be what are you trying to fix it to? Do you want it to be as good as the PHB fighter in a fight? Do you want it be fun an interesting to play (which requires not sucking)? Do you want it to be played in a game with a Wizard and Druid and not feel left out?

[Doc Roc]

At least 26 STR? At 8th level?

Might be that I'm hanging with the least munchkin players in the world, but that seems incredibly excessive. I assume it can't be done with Core, yes?


Yes it can.
Orc.

18 +4 racial +2 from level up, +2 from a str item.
It's a little high for level 8, frankly, but not so bad.

[Signmaker]

Monk is bad enough that to my knowledge, no monk has ever won a ToS match. Outside of core, they're relatively playable but still very weak. I can do interesting things with one, but I recommend you pick a fix you are comfortable with and discard the standard monk.



I personally think that ardent is the better choice here, particularly because ardent selects its powers based entirely on its ML, meaning practiced manifester is basically wildly superior to sliced bread.

Jane Doe ALMOST beat a minionmancer, if that counts. Seeing as she had to fight a set of vrocks, six retrievers, a cubi, and the marilith that wound up killing her, and lived three rounds, that has to say something, right? right?

For added amusement, Jane was truenaming while she was monking. Yaaay disciple of the word.

[Kurald Galain]

To the OP:
No, monks are not that bad. Check out the guide in my sig for mainly core suugestions.
It is probably worth mentioning that a monk built according to this guide has, so far, died in all three combats I've seen it played in, in the play-by-post forums on this site. Make of that what you will.

[9mm]

Why dont you start by proving its worse? im courious to see if you are able to do that without building a straw monk.


this has been done on gleemax an unarmed fighter out damages a monk.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

I prefer the rogue-wizard. At least that gives you a reason to run into blast range, so you can sneak attack them with your Meteor Swarm. :smallbiggrin:

Damn, that's an awesome character concept to build around.

[Golden-Esque]

The problem with that strategy lies in the "non-damage dealing" part. If the character is little-to-no threat to enemies, but is very hard to kill, they will simply choose to ignore the monk and walk around it to the people you are supposed to be defending. Its a very similar issue that arises with the dwarven defender. Sure, if you have a doorway to wedge yourself in, it would be helpful. But in most situations where there is ample room to move, the monk would find itself ignored.

YAY GOAD FEAT!

Complete Adventurer for the win!

[Sir Giacomo]

It is probably worth mentioning that a monk built according to this guide has, so far, died in every single combat it was played in, in the play-by-post forums on this site. Make of that what you will.

In the Test of Spite pbp that Kurald Galain refers to the monk keeps up well with the rest of the group. Will provide a link later (currently technical problems), so that everyone can see for themselves.

- Giacomo

[Doc Roc]

Jane Doe ALMOST beat a minionmancer, if that counts. Seeing as she had to fight a set of vrocks, six retrievers, a cubi, and the marilith that wound up killing her, and lived three rounds, that has to say something, right? right?

For added amusement, Jane was truenaming while she was monking. Yaaay disciple of the word.

And you know what? Truenaming made her better. BETTER. :|

[Signmaker]

And you know what? Truenaming made her better. BETTER. :|

Yay Disciple of the Word. Proving that monks have PrCs to rip off EVERY kind of magical structure, not just the popular ones.

[Doc Roc]

So, Lord Khaine. I have a friendly GM who's willing to run some PvE trials. I'll build an unarmed fighter, if you like, and you can build a monk. Will this be core only or non-core? For the sake of that swayback mare you call an argument, you might want to go ahead and pick core only. Character vetting will be handled by a reliable third party.

Polymorph and similar are naturally banned. I'd prefer to use the test of spite rules, but I understand your unwillingness to do so.

[DragoonWraith]

YAY GOAD FEAT!

Complete Adventurer for the win!
OK, just need to point this out: Goad has a Will save that is based on Charisma.

Your Monk who needed Str, Dex, Con, Int, and Wis? Now needs Cha. Congratulations. You now need all six abilities. And absolutely cannot get them.

More to the point:

A goaded creature can still cast spells, make ranged attacks, move, or perform other actions normally. The use of this feat restricts only melee attacks.One creature, who's minorly impeded by the feat, if it fails its save. Not exactly an incredibly useful ability, and won't solve that problem nearly as well as you think it will.

Even the Knight's Test of Mettle isn't nearly as good as it should be, and it's a lot better than Goad.

[Doc Roc]

Lord_Khaine, I formally present you with a gauntlet. Admittedly, your monk can't use the gauntlet, so this is appropriate and hilarious. So Lord_Khaine, I've found us a GM. What levels would you like to run these PvE tests at?

Core or Non-core?
If non-core, may I be something from ToB?


Failure to accept or accept by proxy will likely be viewed as an admission of error by the community. I certainly will understand, but... :)

[The Rose Dragon]

For added amusement, Jane was truenaming while she was monking. Yaaay disciple of the word.

"Yo dawg, I heard you like ineffective characters, so I put truenaming monk on your truenaming monk so you can suck while you suck"?

((I wanted to say "put truenaming on your monk", but that's not how the meme goes.))

[PhoenixRivers]

At least 26 STR? At 8th level?

Might be that I'm hanging with the least munchkin players in the world, but that seems incredibly excessive. I assume it can't be done with Core, yes?


Orc makes it easy. No, it's not PHb. Yes, it's Monster Manual, which is still core.

That said, out of core, I can get 32 strength at level 1, without much difficulty.

Funny story, it's a wizard.

[Myshlaevsky]

"Yo dawg, I heard you like ineffective characters, so I put truenaming monk on your truenaming monk so you can suck while you suck"?

((I wanted to say "put truenaming on your monk", but that's not how the meme goes.))

"So I put truenaming on your monk" works fine. Not all incarnations of that meme have identical components.

[Kurald Galain]

In the Test of Spite pbp that Kurald Galain refers to the monk keeps up well with the rest of the group.

Not (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6462490&postcount=134)
exactly. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6590012&postcount=512)

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124179) was the third combat I was referring to, against an animal companion without its druid, but turns out that was actually a fighter rather than a monk. Nevertheless...

[Kelpstrand]

I would personally go with Put a Truenaming Monk on your Monk/Truenamer, but whatever.

Also, Tide, for this PvP gauntlet, If you decide to have actual parties, let me know, otherwise, I offer my services in running monsters in PvE gauntlets for any reason, just give me some idea of what you want tested.

I won't be running test of spite rules for anything (Okay, well, I might if both parties want too) because I consider them generally too ban happy and limiting, but will run with my own very limited set of houserules.

Also:
Not exactly. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6462490&postcount=134)

The funny part, is that the Wizard and Druid survive that encounter. Meanwhile, the (poorly built and played) Rogue, and the Monk, died.

[PhoenixRivers]

I know I'll be setting up the monsters. I don't mind if someone else runs them, but I'll be cracking open ye olde monster manual for the challenges.

[Sir Giacomo]

Not exactly. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6462490&postcount=134)

Providing the correct link to the WHOLE test ... :smallwink: (and to be more precise, everyone has died so far - but imo the 3-4 encounters so far do not offer conclusive evidence ... ):

Test of Spite - The Monkening (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6427304#post6427304)

- Giacomo

[Kelpstrand]

I know I'll be setting up the monsters. I don't mind if someone else runs them, but I'll be cracking open ye olde monster manual for the challenges.

Oh, well then I offer my services in that regard.

[Sir Giacomo]

this has been done on gleemax an unarmed fighter out damages a monk.

A link would be interesting.
I have a link that proves the opposite for unarmed combat at least:
WoTC discussion on fighter and monk in unarmed fighting (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19527386/Fighter_can_probably_do_Unarmed_better_than_Monk)


This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124179) was the third combat I was referring to, against an animal companion without its druid, but turns out that was actually a fighter rather than a monk. Nevertheless...

This is confusing - why bring up a thread were I showed that a fighter is completely superior to an animal companion in a core setting - in order to prove that a buff-using monk is not a good idea?

- Giacomo

[Kurald Galain]

but imo the 3-4 encounters so far do not offer conclusive evidence ... ):
On the one hand, there's your opinion - on the other hand, we can make factual statements about e.g. the total amount of damage done by each character. For instance, which of them (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6568587&postcount=441) took down the cryohydra. I'm sure some of the forumites can make a nice graph out of that.

[Kelpstrand]

Providing the correct link to the WHOLE test ... :smallwink: (and to be more precise, everyone has died so far - but imo the 3-4 encounters so far do not offer conclusive evidence ... ):

Of course, anything in which a monk dies doesn't count.

Of course, the Wizard and Druid have only died once, when they were surprise attacked by 5-6 shadows in a coordinated assault that:

Members of the test do not read:could only occur because the Monk was being used by the enemy to spy on them.

Meanwhile, the Monk has died to elemental swarm, Demon arrows, and become the pet of a "Very bad person." Failing in every single encounter.

All this despite several houserules existing to operate in favor of the Monk, and the purposeful gimping of the other characters builds.

[SparkMandriller]

Failure to accept or accept by proxy will likely be viewed as an admission of error by the community. I certainly will understand, but... :)

Half the community would still support the monk even if it does lose. Because in real 3.5, the monk works fine! In real 3.5, everything works differently! You must be playing some other 3.5, mine is perfect.

[Sir Giacomo]

On the one hand, there's your opinion - on the other hand, we can make factual statements about e.g. the total amount of damage done by each character. For instance, which of them took down the cryohydra. I'm sure some of the forumites can make a nice graph out of that.

It's funny that you bring that up, because that was actually the monk (or rather, monk and wizard together) - only the initiative order was changed for convenience.:smallsmile:Also, counting the damage done so far you'd be surprised about the results.
But as I said, the evidence is not yet enough for conclusions.

- Giacomo

[Bayar]

I'd like to test a monk and an unarmed fighter. Being one who would give it the benefit of doubt.

No UMD wands or anything, playing the characters as intended.

[Doc Roc]

On the one hand, there's your opinion - on the other hand, we can make factual statements about e.g. the total amount of damage done by each character. For instance, which of them took down the cryohydra. I'm sure some of the forumites can make a nice graph out of that.

I won't be happy with the evidence available until we have 10-15 encounters down. That said, things are not looking great for the monk.

[Kurald Galain]

It's funny that you bring that up, because that was actually the monk
Actually, this enervation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6568587&postcount=441) spell killed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6568620&postcount=444) the hydra.

Counting up the damage I get about 30 (and two trips) in the first encounter, and zero in the second. Damage done to a creature that's already dead is the equivalent of Belkar here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html).

[Kelpstrand]

Actually, this enervation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6568587&postcount=441) spell killed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6568620&postcount=444) the hydra.

Counting up the damage I get about 30 (and two trips) in the first encounter, and zero in the second.

Does he get negative damage for the part where he is the minion of the enemy?

[Kurald Galain]

Does he get negative damage for the part where he is the minion of the enemy?

That would make sense, yes. From the point of view of the party (and we are discussing characters as addition to an adventuring party, not as solos) being unconscious or dead drops a character's benefit to zero; whereas being charmed, possessed or dominated (not that kind of... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html)) is literally a fate worse than (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FateWorseThanDeath).

[Paulus]

If OP is still about, I would like to just make every single person in this thread step back a minute from their calculators. This is not an anti optimization post, nor an anti optimizer post, this is a reminder post. This is a game. I repeat, it is a game. Therefore, unless your entire group optimizes, and your DM optimizes, any class you play will be very nice and fun. Especially if you enjoy concept.

I admit compared to other classes the monk is certainly less. Yet, that is compared to other classes, which can be said of every other class compared to the wizard, arguably. When you only crunch numbers and averages and the best of the best of the best, you loose sight of the character. Remember this is not Stat Block vs. Stat block. This is a RPG, and a social one at that. Meaning that while you character may not be the best, or even good, compared to others... you still contribute. You contribute what ever you can, and it will be enough because YOU are playing and YOU are having fun. And most likely the DM will certainly take into account your flaws and NOT seek out to destroy you or damn you for them. After all, he's your friend, and he knows it's just a game.

This is no harsh reality of war, or battlefield, or "life social structures of business" whatever. You can be anything you want and do it well! So, once again, are monks really so bad? Absolutely not! They can smack things with their bare hands other classes must use pointy sticks or metal! They flip out, glide down walls, become to immune to poison, diseases, AGE, and magic, AND they speak to anything with a language! ANYTHING! No spells needed, you just TALK to anything! And you are SO wise, you can dodge attacks because you KNOW they are coming! It's like spiderman only without the webs. (Yeah, the casters stole that one.) Not to mention the fact you can RUN like the WIND, your feet of fury can speed you along faster than any other class! And speaking of speed, you can unleash a number of blows at insane speeds that only the best martial warriors can hope to mimic! If you want that Kung FU flare, if you want that Bruce lee, Jackie Chan, I kick your teeth in NAKED feel, than the MONK is for you!


...now, before everyone jumps down my throat with opposites or game immersion detaching reality of numbers and effectiveness, there will be some problems of course. You may miss a lot, you may be hurt, and you may not be able to be the most effective by yourself. Good thing you have a party huh? It's a group effort, and we all make up for what we lack. If you lack more than others, it is simply the hand life dealt you, not a fault of your own or the Character. So if you want to play a monk, don't be discouraged by these numbers and nay sayers. There are ways to fit your flavor and makes you effective, outside or core or in core. Does it mean you will be the best? No, but it does NOT make you worthless. Nor the class. Remember, above all, HAVE FUN!


The message brought to you by the feel good role playing association of gamers and groups for the emphasis on enjoyment over effectiveness.

[valadil]

To the OP:
No, monks are not that bad. Check out the guide in my sig for mainly core suugestions. As you may have realised by now, the issue is highly controversial :smallsmile:


The issue is heated, but not controversial. Most optimizers are in agreement that the monk is subpar. There are a few people who disagree. That does not make a controversy.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

It's about as controvertial as Beer's Law.

[Starbuck_II]

I'd like to test a monk and an unarmed fighter. Being one who would give it the benefit of doubt.

No UMD wands or anything, playing the characters as intended.

The question bears saying: what do you mean by Intended? By the designers?

[tyckspoon]

That would make sense, yes. From the point of view of the party (and we are discussing characters as addition to an adventuring party, not as solos) being unconscious or dead drops a character's benefit to zero; whereas being charmed, possessed or dominated (not that kind of... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html)) is literally a fate worse than (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FateWorseThanDeath).

I'd say yes if you want to track his use to the party, no if you just want to track what he does over the course of the Test. After all, if Giacomo hopes to prove that his Monk is a viable and valuable part of a party, then it doesn't really matter which side he's fighting for; he should be just as effective against the party as with them, shouldn't he.

[Kurald Galain]

It's about as controvertial as Beer's Law.

What is that, a D&D drinking game? :P

[Sir Giacomo]

I won't be happy with the evidence available until we have 10-15 encounters down. That said, things are not looking great for the monk.

Well said! Will comment more comprehensively then.
But I fear that interpretations will differ widely - since for some being attacked by shadows in a surprise encounter draining STR seems to be something they just could not do anything against, while the monk attacked by watery blobs in a surprise encounter draining CON seem to show a typical monk weakness.:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Edit:

That would make sense, yes. From the point of view of the party (and we are discussing characters as addition to an adventuring party, not as solos) being unconscious or dead drops a character's benefit to zero; whereas being charmed, possessed or dominated (not that kind of... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html)) is literally a fate worse than (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FateWorseThanDeath).

It's fascinating what can happen to a character when you roll less than a 4 on a save. I wonder how the typical barbarian or fighter tank would have fared ... :smallwink:

[Pharaoh's Fist]

What is that, a D&D drinking game? :P

Absorption and photometry.



But I fear that interpretations will differ widely - since for some being attacked by shadows in a surprise encounter draining STR seems to be something they just could not do anything against, while the monk attacked by watery blobs in a surprise encounter draining CON seem to show a typical monk weakness.

Getting attacked while asleep is different than being set upon in a combat encounter, thank you very much.

[Paulus]

What is that, a D&D drinking game? :P

Every time the Wizard has to cast a spell to be effective we take a drink.

That use to be why they called it AD&D, Alcoholic Dungeons and Dragons.

[Sir Giacomo]

Getting attacked while asleep is different than being set upon in a combat encounter, thank you very much.

But you were also there. The blobs attacked from hiding (with no listen or spot checks possible), and everyone near had to do a CON check or basically die. You rolled high, I rolled low. There is no difference.

- Giacomo

[Doc Roc]

Every time the Wizard has to cast a spell to be effective we take a drink.

That use to be why they called it AD&D, Alcoholic Dungeons and Dragons.

I approve of this whole-heartedly. I hate these threads and you've brought some much needed levity to them.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

But you were also there. The blobs attacked from hiding (with no listen or spot checks possible), and everyone near had to do a CON check or basically die. You rolled high, I rolled low. There is no difference.

- Giacomo

You're basically saying that you've been the victim of bad luck.

[Kurald Galain]

Every time the Wizard has to cast a spell to be effective we take a drink.

Also, it has to be an appropriate spell. If you cast light, it has to be one of those bright translucent drinks. If you cast fog cloud, it has to be a cloudy white drink. If you cast Evard's Black Tentacles, it has to be a drink with a crazy straw in it...

[The Rose Dragon]

Every time the Wizard has to cast a spell to be effective we take a drink.

That use to be why they called it AD&D, Alcoholic Dungeons and Dragons.

My AD&D mage cast a single spell during his entire character once. And it was Grease. Otherwise, I relied on my awesome luck at rolling 20s with my crossbow.

[Bayar]

The question bears saying: what do you mean by Intended? By the designers?


Monks be kung-fu types, fighters be brawlers.

[Nohwl]

i was just thinking that there hasn't been a monk thread in a while. one of them should really be stickied, and we can just send everyone to there.

[PhoenixRivers]

Also, it has to be an appropriate spell. If you cast light, it has to be one of those bright translucent drinks. If you cast fog cloud, it has to be a cloudy white drink. If you cast Evard's Black Tentacles, it has to be a drink with a crazy straw in it...

Well, would a Scorching Ray be a Flaming Dr. Pepper, a Flaming Jesus, or a Great Balls of Fire?

So much liquor, so little time.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Providing the correct link to the WHOLE test ... :smallwink: (and to be more precise, everyone has died so far - but imo the 3-4 encounters so far do not offer conclusive evidence ... ):

If it doesn't offer conclusive evidence, does that not conflict with your claim that

In the Test of Spite pbp that Kurald Galain refers to the monk keeps up well with the rest of the group.

[Paulus]

Also, it has to be an appropriate spell. If you cast light, it has to be one of those bright translucent drinks. If you cast fog cloud, it has to be a cloudy white drink. If you cast Evard's Black Tentacles, it has to be a drink with a crazy straw in it...

Time stop must down the rest of the bottle, slowly.
And if you aren't dead from 500% blood alcohol level by now, this will finish you.

[Telonius]

Well, would a Scorching Ray be a Flaming Dr. Pepper, a Flaming Jesus, or a Great Balls of Fire?

So much liquor, so little time.

Too bad some of the most amusing ones would be Cleric and Druid spells.

Awaken - coffee liquer
Poison - Brooklyn Chocolate Stout
Atonement - water
Holy Word - Purple Jesus
Blasphemy - any shandy

[Bayar]

Aww, no Sunny D ?

[Signmaker]

"Yo dawg, I heard you like ineffective characters, so I put truenaming monk on your truenaming monk so you can suck while you suck"?

((I wanted to say "put truenaming on your monk", but that's not how the meme goes.))

You'd be surprised. It's not truenaming that sucks, it's the utterance mechanic. There are plenty of ways to use truenaming without ACTUALLY using truenaming.

[Indon]

If it doesn't offer conclusive evidence, does that not conflict with your claim that

If everyone's dying, then insofar as the test has progressed, wouldn't everyone be pretty comparable?

[The Rose Dragon]

You'd be surprised. It's not truenaming that sucks, it's the utterance mechanic. There are plenty of ways to use truenaming without ACTUALLY using truenaming.

Maybe I suck at having a high enough bonus in Truenaming, because I couldn't make any of the truespeech PrC's work (except for Fiendbinder, who is not dependent on making the skill checks on the spot).

[Kurald Galain]

If everyone's dying, then insofar as the test has progressed, wouldn't everyone be pretty comparable?

That depends on (1) whether certain characters are dying more often than others, (2) whether death comes from lengthy combat or from being ambushed in your sleep, and (3) how much the character has done before dying, e.g. in terms of enemies taken down.

For instance, if there is one character that has died multiple times, during protracted combat scenes, in which he has not succeeded in defeating anything (and in one case did zero damage throughout combat), would you say that this is comparable to a character that has been very useful in several combat, and later was insta-killed by ambush while sleeping?

[Signmaker]

Maybe I suck at having a high enough bonus in Truenaming, because I couldn't make any of the truespeech PrC's work (except for Fiendbinder, who is not dependent on making the skill checks on the spot).

Fiendbinder would probably be the most effective PrC in my opinion of the bunch. Disciple of the Word is interesting in that you don't get all that much 'good' out of it until the very end, when you get some pretty awesome SR.

I do enjoy being partially immune to tripping, bull rushes, etc. for a turn.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

If everyone's dying, then insofar as the test has progressed, wouldn't everyone be pretty comparable?

If dying makes classes equal, then the Truenamer is on par with the Barbarian.

[taltamir]

If OP is still about
I am... but by the time i finished reading page 2 and 3, the thread ballooned to 5 pages.. i am now in the middle of page 4.

As for str 26 at level 8... you don't need an orc (+4 str).
any race with +2 str (like half orc), str 18 to start with, +2 from levels, thats 22... add another 2 for enlarge person, +2 for str item, +4 bull strength (does not stack with item) This is 28 total, 26 without bull strength.

edit: VICTORY, I managed to catch up... you sleep for 4.5 hours and suddenly your thread quintuples in size... anyways. I think I understand why monks are crippled now.
Also, monks are nowhere near being skill monkeys. Rogues are the primary skill monkey, maybe bards... and every single int based caster in existence. (depending on ruleset, if you use pure core you will need a single class dip into something to get many skills as a class skill. However once you get them they are yours regardless of what class you level.

[ericgrau]

OP: Monks are not so bad but, sorry, long daily threads on them are (I'm sure the OP doesn't mean it). The things you mentioned give them plenty of strategic uses. Don't forget situational feats too.

IIRC I've never actually seen or heard about a horrible monk in play. I have seen a lousy druid once or twice, not that it couldn't have been done better. Char op don't like monks though, for the worse damage and theoretical weaknesses that might come up sometimes.

[Fluffles]

I am... but by the time i finished reading page 2 and 3, the thread ballooned to 5 pages.. i am now in the middle of page 4.

As for str 26 at level 8... you don't need an orc (+4 str).
any race with +2 str (like half orc), str 18 to start with, +2 from levels, thats 22... add another 2 for enlarge person, +2 for str item, +4 bull strength (does not stack with item) This is 28 total, 26 without bull strength.

edit: VICTORY, I managed to catch up... you sleep for 4.5 hours and suddenly your thread quintuples in size... anyways. I think I understand why monks are crippled now.

And then if you add in splat books... :smallamused:

Half-Ogre Half-Dragon Level 3 Fighter: 18 Starting, +6 Half-Ogre, +8 Half-Dragon, +4 Bulls Strength (or +2 item) = 36/34 :) Level him up to ECL 10 , then add in war hulk... :biggrin: By ECL 20 you'll have 32 Base (From before) +6 Item +5 Tome +3 Levels +20 War Hulk = 66 Str. If he happens to be evil you can throw on lolth-touched for another +4 (Would lose +2 from war hulk to fit in the +1 LA for ECL 20) for an even 70 Str. If it's gestalt throw on some Frenzied Berserker levels (If you were a barbarian) and get Supreme Power Attack. Customize feats and you have a super uber charger exstrodinare! Take a -20 to hit for a +80 to damage! Multiplied with the appropriate feats and items! Yay!

I'm currently in an ECL 20 Gestalt game (Yay! Uber power galore!) where I'm playing a Werebear Lord. Current STR: 60. No levels in war hulk. (Half-Ogre Dire Bear Lycan + items, will be adding in 2 levels of war shaper for some goodies, the maybe some war hulk for extra cheese :))


Back on topic: Why are were comparing Monks to Fighters anyways? That should be enough right there to show how much Monks suck...

[taltamir]

Monks are not so bad but, sorry, long daily threads on them are (I'm sure the OP doesn't mean it). OP: The things you mentioned give them strategic uses. Don't forget situational feats too. The thing is char op (when they're not breaking some rule combo for 40,000 damage) only looks at straightforward applications and anything that might fail sometimes is treated as if it always fails. IIRC I've never actually seen or heard about a horrible monk in play. I have seen a lousy druid once or twice, not that it couldn't have been done better.

my own points were that monks have two strategic uses.
1. tumble past enemies and grapple the BBEG
2. "tank" without doing damage.

problem is:
1. Doesn't work, grapple is BAB based and many spells render you IMMUNE to grapple
2. Doesn't work, DM is not a CRPG AI... intelligent mosters will walk AROUND your harmless and impossible to hit monk and kill your party.
2b. not even true because monks have lower AC per level, every level, than a humble warrior.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

2c. focusing on Con leaves you with less strength, dexterity, and wisdom.

[taltamir]

2c. focusing on Con leaves you with less strength, dexterity, and wisdom.

ah yes... multiple attributes... my biggest monk fix would be that damage and attack BOTH depend on wisdom.

[ericgrau]

my own points were that monks have two strategic uses.
1. tumble past enemies and grapple the BBEG
2. "tank" without doing damage.

problem is:
1. Doesn't work, grapple is BAB based and many spells render you IMMUNE to grapple
2. Doesn't work, DM is not a CRPG AI... intelligent mosters will walk AROUND your harmless and impossible to hit monk and kill your party.
2b. not even true because monks have lower AC per level, every level, than a humble warrior.

The BBEG is already in front. Why would you tumble past anything unless he's a caster or archer or such? And if he's gloating and letting his minions melee 1st, then good. You don't have to fight him at the same time as them. And if he is a caster or archer or such, then you can grapple, baring a whopping 40,000 gold item In which case you grapple something else that can't afford it. Or trip grab the spell component pouch or holy symbol, etc. After all if it has freedom of movement, then it's humanoid and vulnerable to these. Or if it... see now this is just getting highly situational like I said. The monks I see in most games don't have serious trouble with most encounters.

[taltamir]

The BBEG is already in front. Why would you tumble past anything unless he's a caster or archer or such? And if he's gloating and letting his minions melee 1st, then good. You don't have to fight him at the same time as them. And if he is a caster or archer or such, then you can grapple, baring a whopping 40,000 gold item In which case you grapple something else that can't afford it. Or trip grab the spell component pouch or holy symbol, etc. After all if it has freedom of movement, then it's humanoid and vulnerable to these. Or if it... see now this is just getting highly situational like I said. The monks I see in most games don't have serious trouble with most encounters.

all of which the warrior does better, because he has full BAB and more feats... sure the warrior can't tumble. But by the level he actually needs / it is actually useful for the monk, it is fairly easy for the wiard to cast fly on him.
Also he has higher AC to compensate for lack of tumble.

[ericgrau]

Warriors don't tumble.

It's cake to succeed against the targets mentioned w/ or w/o a full BAB. The main problem is getting to them. Dealing more damage in a grapple, better defenses vs. these targets, and other bonuses monks get are just icing.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

The BBEG is already in front. Why would you tumble past anything unless he's a caster or archer or such? And if he's gloating and letting his minions melee 1st, then good. You don't have to fight him at the same time as them. And if he is a caster or archer or such, then you can grapple, baring a whopping 40,000 gold item
Or a 4th Divine Spell

Or a 3rd level Arcane spell.

Or...

[ericgrau]

See following comments of same post. If it can cast then... same applies.

[taltamir]

Warriors don't tumble and it's cake to succeed against the targets mentioned w/ or w/o a full BAB. The main problem is getting to them. Dealing more damage in a grapple and other bonuses are just icing.

they don't need to tumble, they have higher AC and probably choose a path that never requires tumbling...

[ericgrau]

Too slow and too far to go around w/o a speed bonus.

EDIT: Also, I made the mistake of making a 2nd post as a response and getting sucked into a monk debate. Right after warning against it. 1st post sums it up better.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

The monks I see in most games don't have serious trouble with most encounters.

The monks I see in most games have serious trouble with most encounters.

[Kurald Galain]

And if he is a caster or archer or such, then you can grapple,
I wouldn't be so sure of that. Last time I saw a monk up against an archer, the monk turned into a pincushion.

[Starbuck_II]

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Last time I saw a monk up against an archer, the monk turned into a pincushion.

Was that due to Weapon Supremecy (yes, now you can shoot arrows while grappling) or did the Monk not have Deflect arrow?

[ericgrau]

Quick side note to my 1st post b4 I skeedaddle: I've mainly seen and heard about in-person games with limited munchkining. And vs. dungeons not duels. Though I have heard about some old duels too; that's unrelated.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Was that due to Weapon Supremecy (yes, now you can shoot arrows while grappling) or did the Monk not have Deflect arrow?

He chose Combat Expertise, I believe.

[SparkMandriller]

IIRC I've never actually seen or heard about a horrible monk in play.

That Eddie guy said he switched from a monk to a druid a while back because his monk couldn't keep up. Y'know, the guy who made that thread because his group said he was cheating because his druid was too powerful?

Not that one person's experiences really prove much. Just pointing out that it has happened.

[sofawall]

{Scrubbed}

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: As with the recent thread on 3e/4e, please allow this thread the opportunity to be conducted within the rules. Leave the external baggage of past threads or your predictions of flaming doom aside. If something specifically crosses the line (including something already posted here - I haven't reviewed the whole thread), please report it and we'll take a look.

[Starbuck_II]

He chose Combat Expertise, I believe.

Was CE ever used or was that just a Preq?
I'm at a loss why he gave up on auto-deflecting arrows that hit you (1/rd).
I mean, the enemy draws Arrow of Light attack, and says, "Nat 20";
Then you draw your trap card "Deflect arrow" and his attack was nullified.

Or something like that...

[ericgrau]

That Eddie guy said he switched from a monk to a druid a while back because his monk couldn't keep up. Y'know, the guy who made that thread because his group said he was cheating because his druid was too powerful?

Not that one person's experiences really prove much. Just pointing out that it has happened.

Ah, I didn't realize he had switched from a monk. But before now I couldn't remember such an instance, at least in game play. As far as I could figure the problem with the druid was the spell spikes (or the lack of a similar splatbook boost to the other characters). It doesn't surprise me that a horrible monk has happened somewhere in the world at least once. I'm just saying I've heard of tons of times where it doesn't happen.

[Paulus]

Ninja vanish!!

I ninja'ed your ninja but in fairness to you and your apparent wishes I withdrawn my dark abilities and slink into the shadows.

[ericgrau]

ninja vanish in response to ninja vanish!!
Ya, best to leave those matters out of this. :smallbiggrin:

[Paulus]

ninja vanish response to ninja vanish. Ya, best to leave those matters out of this. :smallbiggrin:

Yo dawg I heard you like ninjas so we put a ninja in yo ninja'ed ninja so you can ninja while you ninja'ed ninjas.

[Doc Roc]

Allow me to cordially re-iterate my willingness to run a fat-stack of PvE trials with the help of the excellent Phoenix Rivers and an agreeable third party sheet-reviewer. Please PM me if you are at all interested.

[Yukitsu]

Ah, I didn't realize he had switched from a monk. But before now I couldn't remember such an instance, at least in game play. As far as I could figure the problem with the druid was the spell spikes (or the lack of a similar splatbook boost to the other characters). It doesn't surprise me that a horrible monk has happened somewhere in the world at least once. I'm just saying I've heard of tons of times where it doesn't happen.

I think the standard is, if people are making builds as you see in the PHB, any difference isn't notable. However, when people build outside those parameters, it falls apart.

I haven't seen monks perform well in my group. 1 was played by a veteran that knows what he's doing, and was frustrated by an inability to function past 6, and another who was a newbie, who was frustrated immediately by his low AC due to MAD and lack of armour proficiencies.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Allow me to cordially re-iterate my willingness to run a fat-stack of PvE trials with the help of the excellent Phoenix Rivers and an agreeable third party sheet-reviewer. Please PM me if you are at all interested.

Lord Khaine and ericgrau are the two proponents that I see posting most, and I would expect them to take you up on the offer.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Was CE ever used or was that just a Preq?
I'm at a loss why he gave up on auto-deflecting arrows that hit you (1/rd).
I mean, the enemy draws Arrow of Light attack, and says, "Nat 20";
Then you draw your trap card "Deflect arrow" and his attack was nullified.

Or something like that...

Either that or the Deflect Arrows 1/round was not enough to save him.

[Kelpstrand]

Allow me to cordially re-iterate my willingness to run a fat-stack of PvE trials with the help of the excellent Phoenix Rivers and an agreeable third party sheet-reviewer. Please PM me if you are at all interested.

Would like to re-iterate my services as:

Monster Runner
Encounter maker
Other character in party for party dungeons (Not Monk or Fighter types, but I do Core Wizard/Druid/Rogue/Cleric whenever requested.)
Sheet reviewer, if it matters.

[Xenogears]

Oriental Adventures gives the monks some love. Although it is 3.0...

Removed the multi-classing restriction, some stunning attack alternate versions (blindness and paralyzing are the best of them) that don't take uses of stunning fist (although the paralyzing one was updated in complete warrior and changed to take a stunning fist to use the blinding one remains 3.0 and free to use every turn), a couple other pretty good feats (doubling grapple damage or doubling unarmed charge damage) that were nerfed into crap in 3.5, and a PrC that at lvl 1 gives wis to attack and damage.

The main problems are that the non-stunning fist feats are better for a fighter, the stunning fist feats have some updated into not-so useful, all require both an attack roll and fort save, and only work on humanoids, and the PrC has 3 mostly useless feats as PreReqs (alertness, expertise, and iron will).

So even ignoring the nerfs then youd still be WAY better off just taking a dip in monk, then go to fighter for extra feats, dip in the PrC, dip in Paladin with serenity if your up to the code and can use that feat, then ummm do anything else and enjoy Wis to atk, damage, AC, and saves.

[Starbuck_II]

Either that or the Deflect Arrows 1/round was not enough to save him.

Which reminds me why they never made a Deflect Arrow X/rd feat (that links it to Dex instead of limited to 1/rd).

I guess the Monk could get a Deflecting Kama and then deflect 2/rd (feat + magic item).

[olentu]

Oriental Adventures gives the monks some love. Although it is 3.0...

Removed the multi-classing restriction, some stunning attack alternate versions (blindness and paralyzing are the best of them) that don't take uses of stunning fist (although the paralyzing one was updated in complete warrior and changed to take a stunning fist to use the blinding one remains 3.0 and free to use every turn), a couple other pretty good feats (doubling grapple damage or doubling unarmed charge damage) that were nerfed into crap in 3.5, and a PrC that at lvl 1 gives wis to attack and damage.

The main problems are that the non-stunning fist feats are better for a fighter, the stunning fist feats have some updated into not-so useful, all require both an attack roll and fort save, and only work on humanoids, and the PrC has 3 mostly useless feats as PreReqs (alertness, expertise, and iron will).

So even ignoring the nerfs then youd still be WAY better off just taking a dip in monk, then go to fighter for extra feats, dip in the PrC, dip in Paladin with serenity if your up to the code and can use that feat, then ummm do anything else and enjoy Wis to atk, damage, AC, and saves.

Actually...



"p. 62 and 64, For the Pain Touch, Falling Star Strike,
and Freezing the Lifeblood feats, add the following
sentence to the end of the entry: Using this feat uses
up one of your stunning attacks for the day (either a
monk stunning attack or a use of the Stunning Fist
feat)."

[Tyndmyr]

Oh, so as long as you never face 95% of the Monster Manual, your Monk can totally trip and grapple.

The rest of the time, IE 95% of games, he can't.

Hell, bears will outgrapple the crap out of a monk at an appropriate CR. We're not talking about anything exotic here, just bog standard creatures.

Lets see...a Giant Eagle. CR3, +12 to grapple, straight out of the MM. It's merely a large creature, and it's going to wipe the floor with a monk at that level.

Dire Wolf, CR3, +15 grapple.

Dire Tiger, CR8, +24 grapple.

Dire Bear, CR7, +23 grapple.

Yeah, I don't see a monk doing jack here by grappling. It only gets worse when you get to the exotic stuff like dragons...

[taltamir]

Hell, bears will outgrapple the crap out of a monk at an appropriate CR. We're not talking about anything exotic here, just bog standard creatures.

Lets see...a Giant Eagle. CR3, +12 to grapple, straight out of the MM. It's merely a large creature, and it's going to wipe the floor with a monk at that level.

Dire Wolf, CR3, +15 grapple.

Dire Tiger, CR8, +24 grapple.

Dire Bear, CR7, +23 grapple.

Yeah, I don't see a monk doing jack here by grappling. It only gets worse when you get to the exotic stuff like dragons...

question... can clerics polymorph? because wizards and sorcs and druids all can... making them better grappler for the odd occasion when the moons and the stars align and grapple is useful...

[PId6]

question... can clerics polymorph? because wizards and sorcs and druids all can... making them better grappler for the odd occasion when the moons and the stars align and grapple is useful...
Domains, baby! :smallamused:

[Tyndmyr]

Cleric, I dunno. Im not sure they need to, though, and IIRC, they have size boosters on their spell list anyhow.

So...monks can outgrapple bards then? That it?

[Kelpstrand]

Well...

So, Polymorph the spell sucks, because it has the worst duration in the game. 1 minute per level.

But they can use PaO better than Wizards, since they don't lower casting stat to do it.

They also rock the outsider type more easily and can make themselves huge, giving them 1 week or permanent transformation for those guys. Also, they can get Draconic Polymorph I think.

But they are already better grapplers than monks, since they can just cast Divine Power or Righteous Might, or both.

[taltamir]

Cleric, I dunno. Im not sure they need to, though, and IIRC, they have size boosters on their spell list anyhow.

So...monks can outgrapple bards then? That it?

UMD as a class skill means they can just use a scroll...

[sofawall]

Hmm... Rogues, you can use Escape Artist in grapples, right?

[Bang]

People keep on saying that monks are terrible... mainly saying their damage capacity sucks...

Background:
1. The Monk's a weak class.
2. But it has flashy abilities that make it look like a strong class.

The Cycle:
1. Naive posters come into internet forums to say it's a good class.
2. Otimizers swarm the new poster to tell them why the Monk is a weak class (though situationally useful for 2 levels).
3. Posters who have no bloody clue what they're talking about join in alongside the optimizers in hopes of earning some forumz cred.
4. Somebody comes off as confrontational and every poster involved digs themselves deeper into their respective opinions.
5. The naive poster loses interest, the thread devolves into back-and-forth sentence-by-sentence attacks on the other viewpoint or faux-PvP, the thread is locked or the conversation otherwise falls out of sight.
6. Later, another naive poster joins the forum. Go back to step 1.

The Results:
1. Optimizers go on seeing the Monk as a decent 2-level option for the occasional build.
2. The naive poster listens to David Bowie's "Rebel Rebel" while statting out a Monk for their next game, just to spite The Internet. They are effective, have a good time, conclude that they were Right and The Internet was Wrong.
3. Posters who took the "Monks suck" side of the debate believe it. And repeat it. Ad nauseum. Eventually they make it common forum wisdom that the Monk is unplayable, even in casual games -- only outdone by the Commoner, Truenamer and Samurai in terms of Suck.

The Monk's defenses aren't as bad as they're made out to be. MAD isn't the crippling flaw you'll hear it is (ability requirements didn't leave the game with THAC0, they just became less formalized). The class's skills aren't as useless as they're made out to be.

The Monk doesn't have anything built into the class that it can do effectively in combat. In some groups, that's not a concern because the point of the game is to give some structure to nights spent with friends and a few beers. In some groups, it isn't a concern because the class abilities aren't needed in combat: the party might not need another fighter on the battlefield, a DM might provide outrageous numbers of very specific partially-charged wands, a group might value improvisation -- working outside the rules.

So:
The Monk is a 2-level class for nearly all optimization purposes. Good saves, decent skills, 3 feats, Evasion, the AC bonus and Flurry/Decisive Strike can all be put to good use in a number of builds.

The Monk is not the unplayable wreck that it's made out to be. It's weaker than other classes in combat, but even a straight Monk won't be damning for a party in a casual game (the kind that won't hear mention of the word "build," etc. over the course of a game).
Yes, this can be applied to the Adept and Expert as well. That doesn't matter.

To effectively play a Monk in a setting of moderate optimization, you need to find some way out-of-class to contribute to combat. Typically this will involve multiclassing with a full or accelerated spellcaster, manifester or martial adept.

[taltamir]

you cover every single possible outcome (except for "naive poster learns and eventually becomes an experienced optimizer"... I guess people must be born as experienced optimizers without ever being naive), also you make every single option sound like a bad thing...


2. The naive poster listens to David Bowie's "Rebel Rebel" while statting out a Monk for their next game, just to spite the Internet.
Ha, no, not gonna do that...


3. Posters who took the "Monks suck" side of the debate believe it. And repeat it. Ad nauseum. Eventually they make it common forum wisdom that the Monk is unplayable, even in casual games -- only outdone by the Commoner, Truenamer and Samurai in terms of Suck.
EVERYTHING! is playable in a casual game. Playable and "good" are not the same thing. Also, ill stick to to the facts, not "rule of thumbs"... everything must be justifiable.


1. Optimizers go on seeing the Monk as a decent 2-level option for the occasional build.
That I am curious about.. i can only think of mixing it with a shapeshifter like druid, but i heard better suggestions for that. Everything else means:
1. Benefit from 2 level dip are negated in armor, thus wasted dip
2. 2 level dip ruins caster progression for nothing of value... again, wasted dip.

Well... thats really it. It would make a nice dip for VERY specific situations and if nothing better is allowed.

Also makes an ok gestalt.


PS. I was mislead by NWN... for example, one of the monk's "ultimate abilities" that I listed (which really is worthwhile) is immunity to mind effecting (and other immunities).
Something which does not happen in PnP by the RAW.
Also "stacking" is broken as hell in NWN, and I assumed stupid CRPG ai that will wail on my monk while ignoring the damage dealers (monk hold aggro, monk and monster BOTH fail to do any harm to each other). Also they get some wicked glove enchantment bonuses.

[Leon]

Are Monks really so bad?
No, they are a ok class - nothing OTT but do well enough.
They fall into the Jack of all/master of none category, good to have but not essential.

Its the optimizers that come along and down talk anything that cant be broken to their needs, i played with plenty of groups that have had monks in them - the monks haven't been "carried" anymore than anyone else ever is and generally hold their own quite well. What varies most is the person behind the PC - that is what makes a monk be good or bad.

Have also uncounted a few monks as bad guys and they can be a right terror when they need to be.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Monk as a dip, you say? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6404306&postcount=47)

[Tyndmyr]

The Monk's defenses aren't as bad as they're made out to be. MAD isn't the crippling flaw you'll hear it is (ability requirements didn't leave the game with THAC0, they just became less formalized).

I agreed with you until this point. MAD is a problem...and it's a problem that gets more pronounced the fewer points you have to work with. So, you get the good ol' DM who wants to clamp down on the power gaming, who puts the kibosh on most non-core books, has a low point buy, and what have you, and look....the classes are all less powerful, yes, but the worst classes get hurt the most.

Everything is playable, sure, for a given level of playable, but it does kinda suck to be mostly irrelevant to the party once you've gotten to a certain level, and are pretty invested in a character.

[Bang]

I agreed with you until this point. MAD is a problem...and it's a problem that gets more pronounced the fewer points you have to work with.
That's what I meant when I said ability requirements haven't left since AD&D.

You used to need certain abilities to even join a class. The Paladin, for instance, required 17 Charisma, 12 Strength and 13 Wisdom. (More in both of the latter two for the experience bonus.)

This is still in place, though no longer formalized: Without four or five stats sporting 14s or higher, a character is basically blocked from being a Monk.

Using MIC effect stacking rules and accounting for the decreasing benefits of buffing a single stat, the cost of enhancements isn't such a problem either. (A Monk might use two +4 items for every one +6 item of a character with less MAD. Honestly, the difference isn't huge.)

--edit--

Also, ill stick to to the facts, not "rule of thumbs"... everything must be justifiable.
Those are few and far between in this sort of discussion. Even if every poster on this board were using the same rules, we would all still be playing different games.

That I am curious about.. i can only think of mixing it with a shapeshifter like druid, but i heard better suggestions for that. Everything else means:
1. Benefit from 2 level dip are negated in armor, thus wasted dip
2. 2 level dip ruins caster progression for nothing of value... again, wasted dip.
Armor doesn't remove the feats. Most Gish* builds have much reduced armor dependencies.

(*Usng the term to apply to all melee casters).

[taltamir]

I agreed with you until this point. MAD is a problem...and it's a problem that gets more pronounced the fewer points you have to work with. So, you get the good ol' DM who wants to clamp down on the power gaming, who puts the kibosh on most non-core books, has a low point buy, and what have you, and look....the classes are all less powerful, yes, but the worst classes get hurt the most.

Everything is playable, sure, for a given level of playable, but it does kinda suck to be mostly irrelevant to the party once you've gotten to a certain level, and are pretty invested in a character.

Question, what do people think about MAD + really high ROLLED attributes? for my last two rolls I got characters with 14 as the LOWEST score. (one is my current one, the other is the replacement in case of death).

I'd say high rolled scores certainly helps MAD, but it still hurts in terms of buffs and magic items, unless you are drowning in gold, MAD means only being able to boost certain traits...

[Tyndmyr]

It hurts long term, but if you got lucky enough to roll insanely high compared to the rest of your party, playing a MAD class isn't so bad for a fair bit of time.

The big problem with MAD isn't that it exists, it's that it only exists for some.

[Kelpstrand]

Question, what do people think about MAD + really high ROLLED attributes? for my last two rolls I got characters with 14 as the LOWEST score. (one is my current one, the other is the replacement in case of death).

I'd say high rolled scores certainly helps MAD, but it still hurts in terms of buffs and magic items, unless you are drowning in gold, MAD means only being able to boost certain traits...

I'd ask why you roll stats at all, since every time you do that a fighter gets chainsawed.

It's an unfair terrible system that only made since in 1e/kinda 2/and AD&D because you were supposed to die all the time, and natural selection would eventually result in you having a character that lived a long time with good rolls.

It still wasn't even that good then.

Bottom line, use PB, or a rolling system where all the players in the party use the same rolls. Don't use an unfair system.
/rant

That said, A Thug Fighter with all 18s is better than a Monk with all 18s. MAD is only one of their problems. Of course you will have advantages on people with worse stats, but that's a huge duh. And it does remove a weakness, but not all of them.

[woodenbandman]

Monks aren't terribad, but they get crap from people because they look cool and have nicely named class features and they ultimately disappoint a lot of people who want to be bruce lee (I know I wanted to roll a monk at one point or another). The same thing happened to me when I rolled a bard (that was just bad optimizing on my part though). They look more interesting than a fighter because they have named class features (similar to how barbarians seem to attract more new players), and they are an archetype that people love, but they don't live up to it.

Can you make a monk effective? Yeah, probably. Probably not if you are single classed, but it's entirely possible. My idea is Decisive Strike + two handed quarterstaff + Power attack + Combat Reflexes. That'll make you a decent build indeed, but if you don't do stuff like that then out of the box they are decidedly meh. And then of course there's the ridiculous builds that deal 24d8 unarmed strike damage. I just file those away with Uberchargers and Incantatrix under "Things that are grounds for being used as target practice."

I personally love the Unarmed Swordsage. It's great and it DOES fulfill everything the monk wanted to be. Finally, I can be bruce lee.

[ZeroNumerous]

Armor doesn't remove the feats. Most Gish* builds have much reduced armor dependencies.

(*Usng the term to apply to all melee casters).

Bards can wear just fine mithral fullplate with only one feat expended.

[taltamir]

I'd ask why you roll stats at all, since every time you do that a fighter gets chainsawed.

It's an unfair terrible system that only made since in 1e/kinda 2/and AD&D because you were supposed to die all the time, and natural selection would eventually result in you having a character that lived a long time with good rolls.

It still wasn't even that good then.

Bottom line, use PB, or a rolling system where all the players in the party use the same rolls. Don't use an unfair system.
/rant

That said, A Thug Fighter with all 18s is better than a Monk with all 18s. MAD is only one of their problems. Of course you will have advantages on people with worse stats, but that's a huge duh. And it does remove a weakness, but not all of them.

I was told to, I wanted to point buy :). Ended up getting REALLLLLY lucky.
I also rolled really high on HP despite asking to get average automatically per level.

So MAD =! more powerful if given really high stats than? all 18 SAD is better than all 18 MAD?

[PId6]

So MAD =! more powerful if given really high stats than? all 18 SAD is better than all 18 MAD?
All 18 VAD (Varied Attribute Dependency; i.e. other attributes useful but not required) > all 18 MAD. So best char with all 18 stats would probably be an archivist. Str/Dex/Con for melee, Int/Wis for casting, Cha for dipping Turn Undead. You don't need all 6 to be effective, but you can definitely use all of them, unlike a SAD class like wizard.

[T.G. Oskar]

Can you make a monk effective? Yeah, probably. Probably not if you are single classed, but it's entirely possible. My idea is Decisive Strike + two handed quarterstaff + Power attack + Combat Reflexes. That'll make you a decent build indeed, but if you don't do stuff like that then out of the box they are decidedly meh.

I was thinking more on the lines of Decisive Strike + Combat Reflexes + Improved Trip + Improved Natural Armor + levels in Psionic Fist + Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike (whichever of the two you prefer, plus the prereqs) Get people to attempt hitting you and then laying the counterstrike. Add Snap Kick for kicks (pun intended)


And then of course there's the ridiculous builds that deal 24d8 unarmed strike damage. I just file those away with Uberchargers and Incantatrix under "Things that are grounds for being used as target practice."

Well, it's one of the ways where a Monk (or an unarmed combatant, actually) can contribute fairly well to combat. It may seem ridiculous, but it's one of the few ways a warrior can contribute. In fact, it's one of the few where the Monk (or reasonable facsimile) can actually do something in a battle where pretty much the Wizard/Cleric/Druid dominates the field, while not expending on too much. Sure, it may seem that expending on a feat, and probably an item or spell or psionic power to grow may seem too much of an expenditure, but the core of the build lies on raw damage.
Though, as most people will say, that's pointless if you don't hit. Which is why you'll look for ways to do so.

[sonofzeal]

I was looking over the 3.0 Monk recently.... and it actually looks a little better, what with actually getting enhancement bonus to its strikes rather than just overcoming some DR. I didn't get long with it, but I did notice a few other changes, so...

- Do you think the 3.0 Monk is superior to the 3.5 Monk?

- Would you recommend using the 3.0 Monk in a 3.5 campaign?

[taltamir]

I was looking over the 3.0 Monk recently.... and it actually looks a little better, what with actually getting enhancement bonus to its strikes rather than just overcoming some DR. I didn't get long with it, but I did notice a few other changes, so...

- Do you think the 3.0 Monk is superior to the 3.5 Monk?

- Would you recommend using the 3.0 Monk in a 3.5 campaign?

it gets DR bypassing AS IF it had an enchantment bonus. It does not get the bonus damage or to hit from it being "an enchanted weapon". Unless a druid/wizard multiclass permanents a greater magic fang on him.

[PhoenixRivers]

Also, that "magic weapon" thing only applies for DR. Which means they need something else to be able to deal with incorporeal, since incorporeal 100% miss chance is not DR.

[taltamir]

Also, that "magic weapon" thing only applies for DR. Which means they need something else to be able to deal with incorporeal, since incorporeal 100% miss chance is not DR.

ouch... it really should just BE a +X enhancement bonus... forget the "as if" part.

[sonofzeal]

Ah, see, this is what I get for skimming it in two minutes. So it's basically the same as 3.5, adjusted for the different DR system?

[PhoenixRivers]

Ah, see, this is what I get for skimming it in two minutes. So it's basically the same as 3.5, adjusted for the different DR system?
Yup.

And well, noncasters have always been sub-par for dealing with incorporeals. An archer with a force bow, pr a psyWar with the force weapon power can do in a pinch, and ghost touch helps, a lot...

But casters really do have an edge there.

[Killer Angel]

So MAD =! more powerful if given really high stats than? all 18 SAD is better than all 18 MAD?

Well, a monk with 18 in all stats, gains more than a wizard with 18 in all stats.
The wizard usually has maxed his Int, so he gains only "marginal" benefits having 18 in strenght, charisma, etc.
With all 18, a monk gains a lot, a wizard a lot less.
But is the monk better than wizard? Only if the wizard has an awful spell list.
Certainly, the gap is less wide.

[Yukitsu]

Basically saying a cup is closer to the ocean than a thimble.

[BobVosh]

Well, a monk with 18 in all stats, gains more than a wizard with 18 in all stats.
The wizard usually has maxed his Int, so he gains only "marginal" benefits having 18 in strenght, charisma, etc.
With all 18, a monk gains a lot, a wizard a lot less.
But is the monk better than wizard? Only if the wizard has an awful spell list.
Certainly, the gap is less wide.

I'm willing to debate this simply because of Tensers Transformation. That spell alone with all 18s will demolish the monk. Well, provided any sort of equipment for it. Normally the wizard doesn't have the stats for this and requires various other spells or tricks to attempt to gish. One rod of still, and a few all day buffs they will win.

At lower levels fist of stone can practically beat monk on its own. (Better to hit with the strength bump, similar damage dice.

The only thing that all 18s does is make the wizard capable of considering more spells that are generally bad, but apparently capable.

[Killer Angel]

I'm willing to debate this simply because of Tensers Transformation. That spell alone with all 18s will demolish the monk.

Oh, I totally agree. I was talkin 'bout an awful spell list, so this theoretic wizard won't have TT.
Yukitsu summarized well my point, let me try another anology: If you give 500.000 dollars to me and others 500.000 to Bill Gates, I improve a lot, while Bill Gates not so much.
With all 18's, a monk gains a lot, while the wizard not so much. The wizard's strenght is based on his spell selection, not on his stats (excluding the primary one).

Sadly for the monk, i rarely see series with all 18...

EDIT: and even with this, you have no way to bypass the poor sinergy of the monk's abilities. Fast movement and flurry of blows, won't work togheter, regardless the monk's stats.

[Indon]

Ah, see, this is what I get for skimming it in two minutes. So it's basically the same as 3.5, adjusted for the different DR system?

I do believe the 3.0 Monk flurry makes it a better 1-level dip than the 3.5 monk.

One attack every 3 BAB is pretty sweet.

[AmberVael]

Oh, I totally agree. I was talkin 'bout an awful spell list, so this theoretic wizard won't have TT.

...show me a good wizard who actually uses TT, and then it might be possible to concede that an awful spell list wouldn't contain it.

[PhoenixRivers]

...show me a good wizard who actually uses TT, and then it might be possible to concede that an awful spell list wouldn't contain it.

+1. Just because a wizard could beat a monk with TT (not proven, but I'll buy that. Seems reasonable), doesn't mean he could actually last with that spell. A wizard with that spell can't cast.

Wizards that can't cast are generally bad wizards.

[Eldariel]

I do believe the 3.0 Monk flurry makes it a better 1-level dip than the 3.5 monk.

One attack every 3 BAB is pretty sweet.

Actually, it's the opposite (or a bit complex, actually); you only get Unarmed BAB for levels of classes that advance it. When you use a Monk-weapon, you can either choose the iteratives granted to you by your present Monk BAB (that is, BAB from Monk-levels) or the ones granted to you by your total BAB.

As such, a Monk 12 could indeed get the +9/+6/+3 attack sequence with Monk-weapons, but Monk 1/Fighter 11 would be stuck with the +11/+6/+1, or alternatively just +11 (since his Monk BAB has no iteratives). Monk 10/Fighter 3 would have the option of going +10/+5 or +10/+4/+1 (Monk 10 has +7/+4/+1 attacks, so he gets iteratives from that adding the Fighter BAB on his main attack only).


Indeed, 3.0 Monk didn't really benefit of the Flurry when multiclassing. 3.5 version is actually better in that regard, though not by much since Flurry is rarely the reason you multiclass into Monk anyways.

[Cyclocone]

...show me a good wizard who actually uses TT, and then it might be possible to concede that an awful spell list wouldn't contain it.

+1. Just because a wizard could beat a monk with TT (not proven, but I'll buy that. Seems reasonable), doesn't mean he could actually last with that spell. A wizard with that spell can't cast.

Wizards that can't cast are generally bad wizards.

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Spellguard of Silverymoon 4/Archmage 1

For persisting Transformation and Irresistible Dance on other Wizards.:smallwink:

[Indon]

That is, indeed, quite convoluted. Back when I played 3rd edition, the only monks were pure-class ones, so it never came up.

[Killer Angel]

...show me a good wizard who actually uses TT, and then it might be possible to concede that an awful spell list wouldn't contain it.

When i've read this, my first thought was: "what is she saying? TT is a solid spell! :smallconfused:"
...than i remember that we house ruled that you can't cast spells, but don't lose the ability to use spell trigger or spell completion magic items. :smallredface:
My bad... but still can be a very good spell, if used (on someone else) by a Spellguard of Silverymoon.

[woodenbandman]

HAHAHA persist transformation on other wizards!

[Kaiyanwang]

HAHAHA persist transformation on other wizards!

I suppose you imply some method to transform a personal spell in a ranged or touch..

The idea is quite fun, anyway.. it implies a lot of things..

[Bayar]

Could you persist it on your improved familiar without actually casting it on yourself ? Or just dismiss it from yourself leaving it on your improved familiar ?

[taltamir]

HAHAHA persist transformation on other wizards!

actually i have heard of people wanting to use it offensively

[tyckspoon]

Could you persist it on your improved familiar without actually casting it on yourself ? Or just dismiss it from yourself leaving it on your improved familiar ?

Yes. The Share Spells ability allows you to cast spells with 'Target: You' on your familiar without actually casting them on yourself at all.

[AmberVael]

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Spellguard of Silverymoon 4/Archmage 1

For persisting Transformation and Irresistible Dance on other Wizards.:smallwink:

Hehehehe. Well yes, but I think you get my point. :smallwink:

[valadil]

Well, a monk with 18 in all stats, gains more than a wizard with 18 in all stats.
The wizard usually has maxed his Int, so he gains only "marginal" benefits having 18 in strenght, charisma, etc.
With all 18, a monk gains a lot, a wizard a lot less.
But is the monk better than wizard? Only if the wizard has an awful spell list.
Certainly, the gap is less wide.

A wizard with all 18s can (and should) afford to go venerable. That extra +3 to your casting stat is probably worth a lot more than a well statted monk.

[Mushroom Ninja]

A wizard with all 18s can (and should) afford to go venerable. That extra +3 to your casting stat is probably worth a lot more than a well statted monk.

Or, for bonus points, the wizard could be a dragonwrought Kobold, go venerable and keep the 18s.