How could Haley use the 200,000gp more constructively?

[AxeD]

You would think that for an amount of money of that magnitude, Haley would be able to find a better solution to rescue her father. Especially since there's practically no chance that she won't be betrayed.


I mean, even if the name "Tyrinar the bloody" is purely ironic (he donates blood frequently), the guy who sent the letter is an chancellor. 9/10ths of a chancellor's job is to betray people.


Any suggestions of how Haley could use that money to rescue her father without letting the othe members of the party know, and not affecting the main campaign?

[Kish]

Hire a therapist. Get over her unwillingness to tell the rest of the party her "secrets." Recruit their help to rescue her father.

Sorry about being flip, but my immediate reaction to the terms set in the original post was that 200,000 gold should be way down the list of resources an adventurer of Haley's level would be able to bring to bear on this problem, and the fact that it's the only one she's considering...doesn't reflect well on her thought processes.

[Turkish Delight]

I continue to think there's something Haley knows that we don't as of yet, something that explains why she's willing to pay a crazily huge bribe rather than just...y'know, going in and rescuing her father from the evil despotic tyrant like any self-respecting adventurer would.

To answer your question, I'm guessing you could hire a good number of quality mercenaries for that much money. Or bribe a good number of the guards who are protecting her father's cell, if he has one. Or just go on a really long, relaxing vacation after she's rescued her father by force, without paying a copper, because rescuing helpless NPCs from evil overlords is just one of those things that adventurers do.

[AxeD]

Hire a therapist. Get over her unwillingness to tell the rest of the party her "secrets." Recruit their help to rescue her father.

Sorry about being flip, but my immediate reaction to the terms set in the original post was that 200,000 gold should be way down the list of resources an adventurer of Haley's level would be able to bring to bear on this problem, and the fact that it's the only one she's considering...doesn't reflect well on her thought processes.

Well I agree with you on the matter of Haley's inability to open up to her team mates. I can't think of one good reason why she shouldn't tell them.

Well, apart from upholding 'bardic tradition' so that it will lead to the party jumping to all sorts of conclusions. Elan would be proud.

I feel that I could argue that PREVENTING THE END OF THE WORLD might be a mission that has a slightly higher priority than that of rescuing her father. There's no time limit on that mission, he's been sentenced to life imprisonment.

I guess I should reiterate the question that I was trying to put out to the forum: without jeopardizing the mission to stop Xykon and Redcloak from unleashing the snarl and destroying the world (by sidetracking it via sidequests, ie. rescuing Haley's father), how could Haley use the 200,000 gp to free him.

I was thinking along the lines of hiring a wizard to use arcane magic to free him. Or hiring an army of mercenaries to lay seige to the country of Tyrinar until Ian is freed from captivity.

[Morquard]

Maybe the reason is simple. Not for not telling her friends, but for why she doesn't consider alternative plans.

She got that letter before she joined the order, it probably was the very reason she went out adventuring (didn't read OotPCs)
So she was what... 5th level at that time?

She had the goal "I want to adventure because its the fastest way to make money, so I can free my dad" and it was not "I want to adventure so I grow big and strong and singlehandedly rescue him".
The idea that her party could help her didn't occur to her back then. She didn't know them, didn't trust them, they were the means to an end, namely getting the cash.

She's been working on "Plan: Get enough gold to buy him free" for so long it doesn't occur to her theres another way by now. Its normal and human. We often stick to the plans we have and don't consider alternatives unless someone hits is in the face with one.

[pnewman]

She wants to pay the ransom because she believes that paying the ransom is her best chance of getting her Dad back alive.

There very well may be a Step 2 where she and her Dad then steal the money back, but she's got to get him out first so he's safe and can feed her the inside information she needs for Step 2.

If there isn't a Step 2 there should be.

[Belkster11]

Maybe the reason is simple. Not for not telling her friends, but for why she doesn't consider alternative plans.

She got that letter before she joined the order, it probably was the very reason she went out adventuring (didn't read OotPCs)
So she was what... 5th level at that time?

She had the goal "I want to adventure because its the fastest way to make money, so I can free my dad" and it was not "I want to adventure so I grow big and strong and singlehandedly rescue him".
The idea that her party could help her didn't occur to her back then. She didn't know them, didn't trust them, they were the means to an end, namely getting the cash.

She's been working on "Plan: Get enough gold to buy him free" for so long it doesn't occur to her theres another way by now. Its normal and human. We often stick to the plans we have and don't consider alternatives unless someone hits is in the face with one.

I agree. If she said this to the others, they'll either go

"We've got a world to save first."

or possibly suggest other means like a direct assault on T's tower. While honestly, I think it's more safer than giving 20,000 gp to Tyrinar (I mean, who's saying he's NOT gonna use it to buy more armor and weapons to conquer things?).

But mostly, I think they'll say "World first, your dad later. If the main plot winds up with us meeting your dad and rescuing him, great. If not, sorry."

[Herald Alberich]

That would be rather cold and hypocritical of Roy, after dragging the party up to Cliffport to rescue Julia from Nale. And only his opinion really matters; he's the leader. If it were put to a vote, Elan would support whatever Haley wants, Belkar would appreciate the opportunity to stab humans without getting in trouble, and Durkon would follow Roy. That leaves V, who with his newly-regained empathy would probably like to save Haley from a similar estrangement to the one he just suffered.

Yes, I think there's a high chance the Order would help Haley spring her dad if she asked, and Morquard's right: her trust issues combined with the inertia of "this is the plan I'm using" keep her from doing so.

[theinsulabot]

hookers and blow?

[Rotipher]

Considering how Haley's dad is also a thief, and presumably higher level than her, any prison that's secure enough to keep him in is probably secure enough to keep her out. Plus, Haley's from Greysky City, a place that conforms to the Crapsack World trope; she probably expects any attempt to free a hostage by force to end up with one dead hostage and a bunch of dead rescuers.

[Trobby]

I'm willing to wager that Haley, a person who is quite reasonable about most things, is simply not willing to take the risk that, in trying a daring rescue to save her father, she might risk having the big T execute her father instead, rather than risk a bunch of adventurers mucking up his work.

And frankly, a level 15-ish thief wandering into a Lawful Evil city with the intent of freeing a long-time prisoner with a 200,000 ransom on his head is practically suicidal.

But the emphasis here is that Haley, a person who is normally quite smart about this sort of thing, is not being smart. Think about this: If it were your father being held, would you go for the daring rescue? Keep in mind that your father is being held by a force of law that is considered legitimate by all governments, and you have roughly $200,000 to either pay for his safety, or pay a bunch of black suits to try to get him back for you. Are you going to trust thieves, or that a so-far lawful society will honor the terms of their ransom?

Haley would. She's been earning this gold for years now, so you'd better bet she would pay off the ransom when given the chance.


Edit: Also, see Her^ Argument.

[Tass]

Where did Haley get those 200,000gp? It is not what she has saved through years of adventuring. Because rather recently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html) she had almost nothing. Did she loot it all from Crystal and the guild?

[Surprise!]

Two words

Time

Share

[Shale]

She recovered any possessions she left with the rest of the party before going off to recover Roy's body, and stole all the material wealth of an assassin of the same level as her. Plus random encounters between Azure and Greysky Cities.

[Ancalagon]

Where did Haley get those 200,000gp? It is not what she has saved through years of adventuring. Because rather recently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html) she had almost nothing. Did she loot it all from Crystal and the guild?

Reading the latest comic will answer your question...

[Optimystik]

hookers and blow?

And this is why I read the forums

[Herald Alberich]

Plus the 50,000 gp and items (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0580.html) from Grubwiggler, and possibly additional loot when she went back with the Guild to get the Roy Golem. I don't think she got around to giving them half of that before she left.

[veti]

Gold is more durable than people. Even high-level people.

If Haley tries to rescue her dad and it goes wrong, then one entirely plausible scenario ends up with him dead. That's a bugger to reverse, even if it is possible at all (which it may not be).

Assuming Haley loves her dad, she might consider that it's a lot safer to pay the ransom, get her father out of chokey, then set about rescuing the gold...

[Totally Guy]

Hire a therapist. Get over her unwillingness to tell the rest of the party her "secrets." Recruit their help to rescue her father.

I read that as "Hire the rapist."

...:smallconfused: Rapists don't help people rescue people...

:smalltongue:And then I re-read it.

[Turkish Delight]

Gold is more durable than people. Even high-level people.

If Haley tries to rescue her dad and it goes wrong, then one entirely plausible scenario ends up with him dead. That's a bugger to reverse, even if it is possible at all (which it may not be).

Another possibility, given that she's dealing with a man named Lord Tyrinar the Bloody, is that she pays the ransom and the dinstinguished despot backs out on his word, maybe even 'releasing him to elsewhere' by chopping off his head.

Essentially, she is placing her trust in a man she doesn't know, but whom she can pretty well guess is a murderous tyrannical thug. Her father's life, or at least his release, is in just as much peril no matter what she does.

[DukeGod]

i don't think she will pay the ramsom,the order is around 14th level and if noone cares about who is ruling the country they could just kill the guy,demand the prisioner to be freed and them leave the country for another guy

she should buy some better magic items,as they don't seem pretty well equiped
Roy's sword is only +5(and Evilbane probably)

[Bibliomancer]

She could buy a wizard that knows conjuration spells or a seer who knows the plot of the next 5 comics (renewed continuously) or buy a +5 inherent bonus to Dexterity and then rescue her father with it.

[Shale]

"Only" +5? I'm not sure what crazy rules you're used to, but last I checked non-epic weapon bonuses are capped at +5. You can put extra abilities on top of the enhancement bonus, but both Roy and Haley already have those (evilbane, or whatever, you want to call the green-fire effect, and Icy Burst).

[Bibliomancer]

"Only" +5? I'm not sure what crazy rules you're used to, but last I checked non-epic weapon bonuses are capped at +5.

However, it doesn't have a lot of crazy extras tacked on and his armor hasn't been upgraded on screen since the first comic.

[Turkish Delight]

Y'know, this brings up another question:

Why, when confronted with the Oracle, didn't Haley ask a question about her father?

'Where is my father being held?' (Ehhh, flesh this one out in Roy-like fashion so that he doesn't answer 'in his cell' and then hope it doesn't backfire in Roy-like fashion)

'Will I save my father from his imprisonment or death if I pay the ransom?'

'What caused my father to be taken prisoner in the first place?'

Anything of the sort. Haley doesn't appear as if she wants to ask a related question even when she has her voice back and before the Oracle became a dagger cushion.

Obviously, this would reveal her problem to the rest of the Order. But if she has a serious chance to make a difference and doesn't take it just because she likes being ultra-secretive, that's taking it to the point of stupidity.

[uncool]

I read that as "Hire the rapist."

...:smallconfused: Rapists don't help people rescue people...

:smalltongue:And then I re-read it.

However, they may save (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124177) people...

[Kish]

Obviously, this would reveal her problem to the rest of the Order. But if she has a serious chance to make a difference and doesn't take it just because she likes being ultra-secretive, that's taking it to the point of stupidity.
You mean it didn't reach the point of stupidity when she lost her ability to speak due to being ultra-secretive?

[Turkish Delight]

You mean it didn't reach the point of stupidity when she lost her ability to speak due to being ultra-secretive?

No, because who could've expected it? And once she found out that was the reason she could no longer speak, she started trying to overcome it by blurting out secrets to Elan left and right, the love one being at the very top of the list.

[Zevox]

However, it doesn't have a lot of crazy extras tacked on and his armor hasn't been upgraded on screen since the first comic.
That's because those extras are friggin' expensive. A +5 weapon alone is 50,000 gp plus the cost of the MW weapon. Assuming the extra effect on Roy's Greatsword is some sort of bane effect, that boosts it to +6 equivalent, or 72,000 gp. The expected wealth of a level 14 character (which most of the Order is, but Roy is almost certainly at least 1 level below due to his resurrection) is only 157,000 gp, making that about half of the character's expected total wealth. And they're not going to have that full 157,000 gp at once, that's what they're expected to have accumulated over their entire career - they'll have been spending that as they go along.

If Roy is at about the minimum level he may be, 12, his expected wealth would be only 92,000 gp. Making that one weapon cost most of his total wealth.

Hell, Haley having 200,000 gp at this point is quite a lot more than she would be expected to have. Total expected character wealth doesn't get past that until level 15, and her new bow is valued at 98,000 gp on its own.

Zevox

[Kish]

No, because who could've expected it?

That's...not how insanity works, even in (good) fiction. Haley's secrets haven't been rational for a very long time.

And once she found out that was the reason she could no longer speak, she started trying to overcome it by blurting out secrets to Elan left and right, the love one being at the very top of the list.
And it didn't work because she knew he wouldn't understand her, so she wasn't actually revealing anything at all, and she balked at the idea of communicating that she was in love with Elan nonverbally, remember?

[Turkish Delight]

That's...not how insanity works, even in (good) fiction. Haley's secrets haven't been rational for a very long time.

But it does mean that we cannot hold that negative consequence too strongly against her. If she kept secrets irrationally and it resulted in her losing her speech, it was not foreseeable and therefore not the equivalent of losing a very direct advantage placed right in front of her which she knew full well she could have taken and did not, for no explainable reason.


And it didn't work because she knew he wouldn't understand her, so she wasn't actually revealing anything at all, and she balked at the idea of communicating that she was in love with Elan nonverbally, remember?

The point is she was making some sort of effort once she realized the harm her secret-holding was causing her. Faced with the choice of regaining her voice or keeping her secrets, she made an effort to go for the first rather than stupidly embracing the secrets all the more, even if she was inhibited in fully embracing that choice.

When she faced the Oracle, she faced a choice of either losing a major advantage in the side-quest which may very well be the reason she started adventuring in the first place or revealing possibly the least harmful, least embarrassing, least rational of all secrets we are aware she has to her companions, the one which has no rational basis whatsoever to it. She chose the former.

Or, more accurately, it didn't even seem to come up at all. There was no angsting over it shown, after all. It could've been it didn't occur to her given the greater quest going on, or on a higher level such a question simply didn't occur to the Giant at the time.

[Random832]

@Glug, on the other hand, it only costs 1,530 gp to hire someone to cast refuge on an item (provided at a cost of another 1,500 gp) to be smuggled in. what did you think I was gonna say?

[AxeD]

@Glug, on the other hand, it only costs 1,530 gp to hire someone to cast refuge on an item (provided at a cost of another 1,500 gp) to be smuggled in. what did you think I was gonna say?

Interesting idea, but...
.. the spell description in the SRD is as confusing as all hell. Any idea if it litterally means that the individual will be transported to "your abode"? I'm guessing that Haley doesn't have a house since she's always on the move. I guess this could be fixed by renting out a house for a few months and leaving a message for her father.

How would you implement it?
Assuming he's in a magically-warded, heavily guarded dungeon of some sort, it'd be fairly hard to get someone to deliver the object and give him the code word. I can suppose Haley could get someone to charm/dominate a dumb guard into giving her father the object and code word fairly easily.

[Asta Kask]

For 200 000 gp she could probably raise a nice little army to free her father. Add in Roy's tactical skills and V's raw power and... BAM!