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Person_Man
2009-09-22, 09:14 AM
So while fact checking my X to Y thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732), I came across the spell Whirling Blade (Bard 2 or Wiz/Sor 2, Spell Comp pg 238). As a Standard Action, you a slashing melee weapon in a 60 ft line. You make a normal melee attack at your best attack bonus against everyone in that line, and you have the option of substituting your primary caster stat for your Str for To-Hit and damage. You explicitly don't get extra attacks from iterative attacks. But the spell is silent about other potential attacks (Cleave, Improved Trip, Knock-back, etc). "The weapon deals damage just as if you had swung it in melee, including any bonuses you might have from ability scores or feats." And then the weapon returns to your hand.

Lots of different builds can get easy access to Whirling Blade via UMD, Bard levels, certain PrC, Sword of the Arcane Order, or some sort of Gish combination. So, how would you use and abuse this spell? Dragonfire Inspiration? King of Pong combo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5897646)? Some sort of abusive once per day ability? Sculpt Spell?

Discuss.

Burley
2009-09-22, 09:29 AM
If a rogue were to UMD Whirling Blade while invisible, would the rogue get sneak attack against each opponent?

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-22, 09:40 AM
If a rogue were to UMD Whirling Blade while invisible, would the rogue get sneak attack against each opponent?

If under the effects of invisibility, casting whirling blade would end the effect, so no. If under greater invisibility, then yes.

Person_Man
2009-09-22, 09:44 AM
If a rogue were to UMD Whirling Blade while invisible, would the rogue get sneak attack against each opponent?

Yes, though your Invisibility would be broken after the first attack. So you'd need Improved Invisibility or Swift Invisibility. Also, your DM might invoke the 30 ft restriction.

Edit: Ninja!!!

PinkysBrain
2009-09-22, 09:54 AM
Sculpt spell doesn't work by RAW because the spell is non standard ... it's an "effect: line" spell rather than an "area: line" spell.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-22, 09:56 AM
Sculpt spell doesn't work by RAW because the spell is non standard ... it's an "effect: line" spell rather than an "area: line" spell.

Which is a shame, because having a weapon take a zig-zagging path like the boomerang in LoZ: Phantom Hourglass would be awesome.

woodenbandman
2009-09-22, 12:38 PM
Oh man... Sculpted, EXPLOSIVE whirling blade! Screw RAW, that's too awesome. I allow it!

Prime32
2009-09-22, 12:45 PM
Combining it with blades of fire (swift action casting time, adds fire damage to your melee weapons for 1 round) is fairly popular.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-09-22, 12:53 PM
I once played with some one who went ninja something and had umd as a class skill some how and used wands of whirling blade constently... he would hold a 2hnder in 1 hand and the wand in the other... it was awsome.

I was actualy pritty surprised.. he also had a wand that had sculpted whirling blade as well... but i believe our gm at the time had said it worked together(not raw i belive)

I';ve always wanted to make a sorc or a bard based around the spell...

Bards start to look wicked good when you think about bardic music and dragonfire insperation!

Coplantor
2009-09-22, 12:55 PM
All of the above posts, plus, FACTOTUM!

Deth Muncher
2009-09-22, 12:57 PM
Here's a fun thing not a lot of people notice about it: The way the range is worded, it doesn't have to come from your hand.

Wait, what?

Yeah. You can nominate anywhere in "close" range as a start point, and then it goes, attacks for...whatever, 60ft I think, and then it returns to your hand.

Mind you, if your DM allows this, he should be shot.

Grumman
2009-09-22, 01:02 PM
Since you can only hit once with a Sugliin anyway, it could be a good weapon to use, thanks to its 2D8 base damage.

You need to be a recaster to pull it off, but one of my characters used the spell with a Sugliin (aka, a tree with sharp things tied to it), while Giantsized. With power attack, this translated to 8D8+83 damage to everything along a 60-foot line, for a level 2 spell.

Keld Denar
2009-09-22, 01:13 PM
Whirling Badass

Goliath Fighter2/Barbarian2/Duskblade2/SuelArcanamach4/AbjurantChamp5/Spellsword1/DragonDisciple4

With Knockback (RoS) and Dungeoncrashing I, you can throw your bladed weapon across the room, apply PA to it, and trigger Knockback with it, flinging a potentially large number of foes in random directions. Since the blade doesn't specify which direction it attacks from (only that it can't benefit from flanking or whatever), you are pretty much free to toss people wherever you'd like. If you have Shocktrooper, you can even trip people when you knock them into stuff via Domino Rush.

Also, I'm a big fan of Bards that use the Sudden Stunning enchant in the DMGII. Getting into melee to trigger it is risky though! Not with Whirling Blade. 60' of range, some damage tagged on, and a scaling Ref save vs stun! Long distance disable!

jiriku
2009-09-22, 01:14 PM
Assuming you are a gish character with good strength and a two-handed weapon, wraithstrike and excessive amounts of power attack (possibly in combination with leap attack and/or shock trooper) can exploit those attacks

You could use it with Improved Sunder or Improved Disarm to disarm or sunder many foes at once. Combat Brute+Improved Sunder would allow you to sunder and deal damage both at once.

With a martial-manuever gish class, like jade phoenix mage, you can activate one of the desert wind flaming blades to gain up to 3d6+initiator level to damage on all those attacks.

The twin spell metamagic feats would double your number of attacks, and is fairly easy to manage at mid levels since whirling blade is such a low-level spell.

Fell animate would raise everyone you killed as a zombie (not very powerful, but highly entertaining against a closely packed formation of mooks).

The transdimensional spell metamagic feat would allow you to attack incorporeal and ethereal opponents normally.

Widen spell makes it a 120' line.

Somewhat speculatively, the explosive spell, black lore of moil, fell drain, and fell frighten spells would deal extra damage and/or inflict status effects on everyone you hit.

Also speculatively, the Battle Jump feat could make those attacks count as a charge, allowing you to bring into play all of the various charge-related damage multipliers.

Keld Denar
2009-09-22, 01:31 PM
Also, and this one is kinda debateable. Weapon damage is variable, generally with a static modifier. Since the damage of the spell is based on the weapon, which has variable damage, you should be able to Empower it, right?

Now, look at the example of Empower. It uses Magic Missile, which has a variable component (1d4) and a static component (+1). The text of Empower makes it clear that you multiply the net result (1d4+1)x1.5. Thus, extrapolating this to our Empowered Whirling Blade, you'd get your variable damage (say...2d6 for a great sword) + your static damage (weapon enhancement bonus, +str, +PA, etc). Combine that ALL, and multiply by 1.5x.

Oh, and since you are "attacking" with the weapon, you'd get 1.5x your Str mod with it, if its a 2handed weapon.

Coplantor
2009-09-22, 01:32 PM
The int bonus to damage of cunning insight would be summed after or before the empower multiplier?

RagnaroksChosen
2009-09-22, 01:35 PM
Would the int bonus from Swashbuckler stack because if it did, combined with Keld Denar explination of enpower.. as a wizard could be pritty nice.

Coplantor
2009-09-22, 01:36 PM
Use cunning brilliance to add your int three times to the damage! Oh, sweet, sweet damage multipliers!

Keld Denar
2009-09-22, 01:46 PM
Um...you could do Swash3/FactX and take WB as one of your Factotum SLAs.

Or...Swash3/Fact8/Cameleon9 would net you Cunning Surge, a bunch of arcane spells and massive Int Synergy...

You'd lose a lot of your versatility, but you could nova pretty impressively if you wanted to dump all of your Inspiration and all of your 2nd+ level spells in a big hurry!

Cieyrin
2009-09-22, 01:49 PM
Since you can only hit once with a Sugliin anyway, it could be a good weapon to use, thanks to its 2D8 base damage.

You need to be a recaster to pull it off, but one of my characters used the spell with a Sugliin (aka, a tree with sharp things tied to it), while Giantsized. With power attack, this translated to 8D8+83 damage to everything along a 60-foot line, for a level 2 spell.

Well, you can swing it a full-round until you get Sugliin Mastery. Why not just use a fullblade and not deal with the shenanigans, since you're just using it for the damage, anyways. You can't take advantage of the Sugliin's reach or tripping ability with Whirling Blade, anyways, so there's not really a point, I'd say.

Also, Suglin's are more like you attached a set of antlers to a small tree you uprooted and started swinging around, if the illustration is any indication.

Grumman
2009-09-22, 02:10 PM
Well, you can swing it a full-round until you get Sugliin Mastery. Why not just use a fullblade and not deal with the shenanigans, since you're just using it for the damage, anyways. You can't take advantage of the Sugliin's reach or tripping ability with Whirling Blade, anyways, so there's not really a point, I'd say.
True, a fullblade would work just as well. I was mainly just using the Sugliin because it was funnier, and because it let me make AoOs out to 60 feet.


Also, Suglin's are more like you attached a set of antlers to a small tree you uprooted and started swinging around, if the illustration is any indication.
Antlers aren't sharp things?

Cieyrin
2009-09-22, 03:10 PM
Antlers aren't sharp things?

They're specific sharp things. :smalltongue:

Kalirren
2009-09-22, 03:57 PM
Well, I'd say that since the spell is silent about special attacks, the effect of the spell is that weapon damage is dealt in a line. You wouldn't get special attack perks, unless they came automatically with the damage (like Knockdown).

You could have this spell on a ring, use-activated with unlimited charges, for a flat 20k gold and turn every caster into a power-attacker. (Who needs the fighter when the casters can just throw lightsabers?)

If you used this with a net, I know it's probably not RAW, but I'd rule that if the net ends up entangling someone, it drags them into melee range. (The weapon -does- have to return to you, after all.) Probably very amusing when you're 60 feet up in the air and they take falling damage. You could also trigger traps with this, or drop people off cliffs.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-09-22, 04:00 PM
Well, I'd say that since the spell is silent about special attacks, the effect of the spell is that weapon damage is dealt in a line. You wouldn't get special attack perks, unless they came automatically with the damage (like Knockdown).

You could have this spell on a ring, use-activated with unlimited charges, for a flat 20k gold and turn every caster into a power-attacker. (Who needs the fighter when the casters can just throw lightsabers?)

If you used this with a net, I know it's probably not RAW, but I'd rule that if the net can entangle someone, it drags them into melee range. (The weapon -does- have to return to you, after all.) Probably very amusing when you're 60 feet up in the air and they take falling damage. You could also trigger traps with this.

lol mabye it would entangle every one in range?

Kalirren
2009-09-22, 04:04 PM
^^ Yeah, I thought of that too. But then my mind immediately went to how one would adjudicate 4 or more creatures being stuck in the space in front of you.

BenTheJester
2009-09-22, 04:05 PM
I had some fun with my Duskblade/Wyrm Wizard with this.

I took Night's Caress(Libris Mortis), Whirling Blade and Wraithstrike as my bonus spells.

Twin and Maximize Spell were the 2 free metamagic I took.

Night's Caress is a touch spell that deals 15d6 and 1d6+2 con damage.

I, of course, had Power Attack and Arcane Strike.

So I would make every enemy in a 60ft line take [(wpn damage)+(str*1.5)+(p.att*2)+(30*6)+(sacrificed spell lvls*1d4)+(16 con)] damage



Then again, I would just use a reach weapon, enlarge person and full attack for the same damage to everyone in my reach

Darrin
2009-09-22, 04:22 PM
Hmmm... any way to make a harpoon into a slashing weapon?

Person_Man
2009-09-22, 04:48 PM
Hmmm... any way to make a harpoon into a slashing weapon?

Maybe a Close Fighting Blade from Races of the Wild. Basically adds a dagger (piercing and slashing weapon) to the handle of any weapon.

Keld Denar
2009-09-22, 04:57 PM
There is also a slashing shield spike in...Drow of the Underdark? that would give you the ability to shield bash from a distance, Captain America style. Combine in some way with Blood Spiked Charger or Shield Slam?

Cieyrin
2009-09-22, 05:31 PM
There is also a slashing shield spike in...Drow of the Underdark? that would give you the ability to shield bash from a distance, Captain America style. Combine in some way with Blood Spiked Charger or Shield Slam?

Unfortunately none of Blood Spiked Charger is really relevant for Whirling Blade. Armor Razors is in Underdark, which technically can't be applied to a shield but whatever, no big deal if you apply it to a shield. Given the costs, I'd assume it's essentially the same, as Armor Razors are no more expensive than Armor Spikes are.

Darrin
2009-09-22, 06:57 PM
Unfortunately none of Blood Spiked Charger is really relevant for Whirling Blade. Armor Razors is in Underdark, which technically can't be applied to a shield

You sure? Check Razor Shields, same book, same page. (I think I mentioned this in Person_Man's shield handbook.)

Whirling Blade + Bladebane (Unapproachable East) would also be a good combo.

Cieyrin
2009-09-22, 07:29 PM
You sure? Check Razor Shields, same book, same page. (I think I mentioned this in Person_Man's shield handbook.)

Whirling Blade + Bladebane (Unapproachable East) would also be a good combo.

Y'know what's weird is that razored shields are listed on the weapon table but not mentioned at all in the armor section or table, which is where I immediately looked. They only talk about Razored Armor. Editing error, I guess. :smallannoyed:

Darrin
2009-09-23, 12:34 AM
Would an Aptitude Harpoon + Versatile Unarmed Strike work for Whirling Blade?

If not... Versatile Unarmed Strike with just a Monk's unarmed strike might be somewhat interesting...

Eldariel
2009-09-23, 05:05 AM
Y'know what's weird is that razored shields are listed on the weapon table but not mentioned at all in the armor section or table, which is where I immediately looked. They only talk about Razored Armor. Editing error, I guess. :smallannoyed:

Hmm, doesn't the same go for Armor/Shield Spikes in PHB? Listed only as weapons?

Cieyrin
2009-09-23, 12:18 PM
Hmm, doesn't the same go for Armor/Shield Spikes in PHB? Listed only as weapons?

No, Armor and Shield Spikes are listed on both tables in the Weapon and Armor sections and have descriptions in the armor section in the PHB.

As for razor shields, there's probably errata for Underdark that covers it, I imagine. Probably priced and weigh the same as Shield Spikes like Armor Spikes and Razors do.

Fishy
2009-09-23, 12:46 PM
There's always the Pushback feat.

Hit your opponent with a melee attack, get a free Bull Rush attempt. If successful, they move 5', and you move into the square they just left.

Which is 60' away.

Suddenly, you're not throwing your blade, you're running 60' in one mad dash, faster than the eye can follow, and cutting through everyone in your way.

Grumman
2009-09-23, 01:07 PM
There's always the Pushback feat.
It doesn't work, as you have to be adjacent.

jiriku
2009-09-23, 01:29 PM
Would an Aptitude Harpoon + Versatile Unarmed Strike work for Whirling Blade?

If not... Versatile Unarmed Strike with just a Monk's unarmed strike might be somewhat interesting...

IIRC there's a warlock invocation in complete mage that allows the warlock to detach his hand so it can maneuver independently. Thus, a monk/warlock/sorcerer could actually throw his hand and deal unarmed strike damage in a 60' line....

Person_Man
2009-09-23, 01:59 PM
Hmmmm....

Maybe Claws of the Beast + Claws of the Vampire + Expansion + Karmic Strike + Robilar's Gambit + Warmind + Evasive Reflexes + Combat Reflexes + Whip-Daggers + Sparring Dummy of the Master + lots of Tumble + would work?


Before combat, use Claws of the Best + Claws of the Vampire + Expansion (standard King of Smack combo).
Move Adjacent to Enemy A and cast Whirling Blade (most likely with a Wand with UMD or Arcane Schooling).
Whirling Blade smacks Enemy A with your Whip-Dagger (a slashing weapon).
If Enemy B is standing next to Enemy A, then Enemy B is smacked by this as well (Sweeping Strike).
You provoke an Attack of Opportunity from the Enemy A, and Enemy B if you are within his threatened area, because you attacked them with a whip.
For each enemy that hits you, you get an AoO against him from Karmic Strike.
In addition, for each enemy attack against you, you get an AoO against him from Robilar's Gambit.
Instead of taking any or all of these AoO, you can take a 5 ft step (thanks to Evasive Reflexes which doesn't count against your AoO uses per round).
Sparring Dummy of the Master makes them 10 ft steps.
You can move directly through Enemy A's square with this 10 ft step if you want to. Doing so should provoke another AoO (if they have Combat Reflexes) if you choose, or you can avoid it with Tumble.
With 2-6 AoO that you can trade in with Evasive Reflexes, it shouldn't be that hard to get adjacent to the next enemy in your 60 ft Whirling Blade line of effect. Also, your base is pretty big (thanks to Expansion) making it even easier (remember, Whirling Blade is a 60 ft line, but it need not be a line directly away from you).
Use whatever AoO you don't need for movement to actually make attacks of opportunity, with your awesome vampiric claws. And again, remember Sweeping Strike makes each AoO also effect one adjacent enemy.
The next enemy in your Whirling Blade conga line of pain gets hit by your Whip-Dagger, as does any enemy standing next to him (potentially Enemy A).
You provoke an AoO from this enemy, because you attacked him with a whip.
Chain repeats.

End result, you're standing next to or near the last enemy in your 60 ft Whirling Blade line of effect. Everyone in that line, plus everyone next to them, is hit by 1-8 melee attacks (assuming you have very high Dex). You potentially suffer a whole lot of AoO against you, but also heal any attacks made with your claws.

Did I miss anything?

Keld Denar
2009-09-23, 02:10 PM
Did I miss anything?

Yea...at the end of your movement, rocks fall, everyone dies.

This is so convoluted its hillarious.

I'm thinking something like PsyWar6/Monk2/Fighter2/Warmind5/Swordsage2/Something4 could probably pull it off, and even get most of the feats you need with somewhat regularity. If you finished with Swordsage+4, could you get your IL high enough to initiate Girallon Windmill Fleshrip while doing it? Cause that would be hillarious!

Person_Man
2009-09-23, 02:23 PM
Yea...at the end of your movement, rocks fall, everyone dies.

This is so convoluted its hillarious.

I'm thinking something like PsyWar6/Monk2/Fighter2/Warmind5/Swordsage2/Something4 could probably pull it off, and even get most of the feats you need with somewhat regularity. If you finished with Swordsage+4, could you get your IL high enough to initiate Girallon Windmill Fleshrip while doing it? Cause that would be hillarious!

Holy crud, I completely forgot about Girallon Windmill Fleshrip. It's a Swift Action Boost! If you get even 3 enemies standing adjacent to each other, it shouldn't be that hard to get 8+ attacks against each of them. So you get your normal damage, plus 20d6 rend (each).

I almost want to include Knock-Down or Knockback + Rapaging Bull Rush just so that they're Prone when I reduce them to -100 hit points.

Of course, then my DM would hit me with the DMG, which would also probably have a Girallon Windmill Fleshrip Boost to it.

Keld Denar
2009-09-23, 03:03 PM
Well, I doubt he could hit you with a DMG enough times in 6 seconds to make Girallon Windmill Fleshrip (so much fun to say!) worth it. He'd probably be better off using Raging Mongoose to get a few extra whacks in before you can move away, or setting the DMG on fire before beating you with it ala Inferno Blade.

I guess the question would be...if you Whirling Blade a Whip Dagger, would your opponent even get an AoO against you (other than from the casting)? It says its like a melee attack, but not a melee attack. I guess I'd be pretty leary of it provoking. Obvious, if you were out of their range, they wouldn't regardless because you can't claim AoOs on someone you don't threaten, but if you were adacent and cast it, I wouldn't think so...Hmmmmm.

taltamir
2009-09-23, 05:51 PM
question: would you say that the 1.5x for two handed weapon applies in whirling blade?

question2: can you use an oversized weapon? such as, say, a greataxe sized for gargantuan people without penalty?

question3: what is the best weapon for whirling blade?

Deth Muncher
2009-09-23, 09:15 PM
question3: what is the best weapon for whirling blade?

Some Colossal+ sized weapon. :D

jiriku
2009-09-23, 09:43 PM
question: would you say that the 1.5x for two handed weapon applies in whirling blade?

question2: can you use an oversized weapon? such as, say, a greataxe sized for gargantuan people without penalty?

question3: what is the best weapon for whirling blade?

1. Sure. It functions just as if you were wielding it. If you're two-handing it when you cast, and you're two-handing it once it returns, it should act as if it's being two-handed while in flight.

2. Oversize, sure, but again, you'd take wrong-size penalties just as if it was in your hands.

3. S weapon that trips or disarms, provided you have the proper build to take advantage of those functions. Dealing damage to a group of people is all well and good, but delivering a dual threat of damage+disarm or damage+knockdown is better.