There! Not Another Stroke of the Brush! [3.5 Base Class]

[Primal Fury]

My "Aesthete" idea did not hold a whole lot of water, but one aspect of that class just got to me. So I made a whole new class out of that one idea. Unfortunately, I'll only be able to post the crunch for now, as I'm to busy for the fluff.

Now behold, the ARTISTE!



The Artiste

http://www.museums.norfolk.gov.uk/img_hr/web_L%27Artiste%20dans%20son%20Atelier.jpg
"No, no, no. Your lines are all wrong, your colors are too dull, and your shape is just... BLECH! And you think you're beautiful?! Hah!"
-A rather tactless artiste to a nymph who cried shortly thereafter.

(Reserved for Fluff)

Hit Dice: d6

THE ARTISTE
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Skecthbook, Art Imitates Life, Life Imitates Art (Mightier than the Sword 1d6)

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Life Imitates Art (Filling in the Blanks)

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+3|Life Imitates Art (Mightier than the Sword 2d6)

4th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4|Honing the Captured Likeness

5th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4|Life Imitates Art (Mightier than the Sword 3d6)

6th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+5|Life Imitates Art (Ink-Heart)

7th|
+5|
+2|
+2|
+5|Life Imitates Art (Mightier than the Sword 4d6)

8th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+2|
+6|Life Imitates Art (Skilled Hand of the Guardian)

9th|
+6/+1|
+3|
+3|
+6|Life Imitates Art (Mightier than the Sword 5d6)

10th|
+7/+2|
+3|
+3|
+7|Artistic Freedom, The Lowest Form of Art (Shadow Conjuration)

11th|
+8/+3|
+3|
+3|
+7|Life Imitates Art (Mightier than the Sword 6d6)

12th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+4|
+8|Life Imitates Art (Erase)

13th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+4|
+8|Life Imitates Art (Mightier than the Sword 7d6)

14th|
+10/+5|
+4|
+4|
+9|The World Is My Canvas! (1/day)

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+9|Life Imitates Art (Mightier than the Sword 8d6)

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+10|The Lowest Form of Art (Greater Shadow Conjuration), The World Is My Canvas! (3/day)

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+10|Life Imitates Art (Mightier than the Sword 9d6)

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+11|The World Is My Canvas! (5/day)

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11|Life Imitates Art (Mightier than the Sword 10d6)

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+6|
+6|
+12|The World Is My Canvas! (Permanent), The Lowest Form of Art (Shades)[/table]

Skill Points per level: 6 + Int Modifier (x 4 at 1st level)
Class Skills: Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Use Magical Device (Cha)

Class Abilities:

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Artistes have little use for anything other than their sketchbooks, as such, they are only proficient with simple weapons and light armor. They are not proficient with shields.

Sketchbook: The cornerstone of the Artiste's repertoire is their sketchbook. Through some supernatural means (be it arcane, divine, or psionic in nature), the Artiste can twist the world to his whims by using this curious book as a focus. It is in many ways identical to a wizard's spellbook, except that it only contains 50 pages. In addition to being used for actual sketching, this book allows them to use a number of abilities, including Life Imitates Art and Art Imitates Life. Once a sketchbook is full, the Artiste can create a new one through the Rite of Artistic Resonance. If a sketchbook is lost for whatever reason, they cannot make use of any abilities related to that specific book, but this doesn't prevent them from using other sketchbooks in their possession.

Art Imitates Life: Due to their mastery with various painting and drawing implements, Artistes can duplicate the form of just about anything they encounter. By making a Craft (Sketching) check (DC = creature's HD + 10), an Artiste can capture a creature's perfect likeness in their sketchbook. This is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. Once the action is successful, the likeness can be used in conjunction with their Life Imitates Art ability. One might expect the size of a creature to have some sort of relevance when determining how much space it's likeness takes up, and they would be wrong. Size has to do with little other than perspective. A dragon may be large, but if it poses no threat to the Artiste, it can seem rather small in the grand scheme of things; by the same token, a halfling may be short in stature, but if they are sufficiently heroic, they're “larger” than that dragon will ever be. Essentially, this means that a creature's HD dictates the size of its likeness. If it's HD is less than the Artiste's class level, than it takes up half of a page. If the HD is equal to the Artiste's class level, then it takes up a whole page; if it's greater, then it takes up two pages. In most cases, the Artiste requires two hands to make the needed Craft checks (one for the writing implement, and one for the sketchbook). But if the Artiste is in an awkward position (prone for example), but can still reach the book, they only require one hand.

Life Imitates Art: With little more than their than a pen and force of will, an Artiste can change the world around them to fit their... unique aesthetic tastes. This gives them access to a vast array of abilities that allow them to assail their opponents, aid their allies, and bring color to this staggeringly boring thing called “reality.”

Mightier than the Sword: By drawing a quick slash over his targets likeness, the Artiste adds a bit of truth to this old saying. On a successful ranged touch attack the Artiste causes 1d6 damage. This damage increases by 1d6 at level three, and again every even numbered level thereafter to a maximum of 10d6 at level 19. This ability can be used at will, and requires a standard action.

Filling in the Blanks: Many Artistes do not like seeing those around them wounded; it makes them seem... unfinished, and there is no perfection to be found in broken things. At level 2, an Artiste who makes a successful Craft (Painting) check (DC = standard Heal DC) can heal any creature or object who's likeness they possess. This can function as a standard Heal check, but by altering the DC (Target's HD + 10) the Artiste can heal a number of hit points equal to twice their character level. This ability is usable a number of times per day equal to the Artiste's Charisma modifier.

Ink-Heart: Beginning at level 6, an Artiste can create servant out of pure ink. For the most part, this ability functions as the Astral Construct power with a manifester level equal to the Artiste's class level. This ability is treated as having a manifester level = min(class level/2), max 9th. The Artiste may summon several, but again as the power, a lower CR of monsters must be summoned. If this ability is used to replicate an AC power of at least 2 power levels below the Artiste's max(Example, a 15th level Artiste choosing to summon 1 large CR 8 Astral Construct), he may use the ability at-will, but any summons must be dismissed before this is used again this way. For more powerful summons, the ability drains his artistic vision, limiting him to only Cha mod uses per day. In addition, the Artiste can summon creature who's likeness they possess into being for a number of rounds equal to half their class level. This creature must have a CR less than or equal to the Artistes class level. This is very taxing, and requires a concentration check (DC = TBA) each round to control. During this time, the Artiste can do little else other than move and defend themselves. This form of Ink-Heart can only be used once per day. These creatures are clearly facsimiles, as they are made out of nothing but ink and have no color, so there is no chance of disguising them as their more natural counterparts; to represent this, all summons possess the Ink template.
Note: It is recommended that the DM prohibit the summoning of other PCs in this way. Though some sort of transportation ability would be a viable alternative.

Skilled Hand of the Guardian: At level 9, the Artiste can give his allies a great deal of protection by drawing a simple circle around their likeness. By succeeding on a Craft (Sketching) check (DC = target's HD + 15) they can provide their ally with universal damage reduction equal to the Artiste's class level that lasts for a number of rounds equal to their Charisma modifier.

Erase: Only particularly vengeful Artiste's have been known to make use of this destructive ability. Once per day, at level 12, the Artiste can attempt to erase their target from their sketchbook... and existence. This is functionally identical to the Disintegrate spell with a caster level equal to the Artiste's class level.

Note: All Life Imitates Art abilities are limited to a range of 60ft.

Honing the Captured Likeness: At some point, the Artiste grows bored with simple sketching, and must move on to higher forms of art. This allows them to improve the various likenesses they have captured. Beginning at level 4, the Artiste can vastly improve upon their meager sketching by making a Craft (Painting) check (DC = target's HD + 20) using one of the likenesses in their sketchbook(s). If the check succeeds, then the creature benefits from the Augment Summoning feat when summoned, but only once that day. If this ability is used on an allies (PCs) likeness, that ally gains the same benefit for a number of minutes equal to the Artiste's Charisma modifier. These bonuses increase by 4 at levels 8, 12, and 16 to a maximum of +16. The intricacies of this process prevent it from being used in combat.

Artistic Freedom: Even the most down to earth Artiste can become rather uninterested with reality after a while; they often say it lacks a certain... something. Beginning at level 10, the Artiste can add various templates to creatures who's likeness they possess. This requires a successful Craft (Painting) check (DC = target's HD + 30). From then on, the Artiste can summon that version of the creature. The template cannot be applied if it increases the creature's CR beyond the Artiste's class level + their Charisma modifier. Any template applied to an ally (PC) lasts for a number of minutes equal to the Artiste's Charisma modifier. Certain templates can be applied regardless of their requirements, such as Axiomatic, Anarchic, Pseudonatural, Fiendish, and Celestial. These have to do more with the quality of the Artiste's work than the actual planes. A perfectly painted portrait would yield an Axiomatic creature, whereas a poorly painted or unfinished one would result in an Anarchic version and so on. This ability can be made permanent if used on an ally, but this requires knowledge of the Ritual of Platonic Apotheosis, and prevents them from receiving any more benefits from Artistic License, or Honing the Captured Likeness, as they are effectively “complete” in the Artiste's eyes. Once the ritual is used, Artistic License cannot be used again until the following day; otherwise it can be used a number of times per day equal to the Artiste's Charisma modifier. This ability cannot be used during combat due to the time required to complete the masterpiece.

The Lowest Form of Art: Critics often say that mimicry is the highest form of flattery, but the lowest form of art; so any artiste that attempts to emulate another is frowned upon. Nevertheless, there are those try to copy the arcane mastery of wizards. Beginning at level 10, an artiste can use Shadow Conjuration as a spell-like ability three times per day. This ability improves at level 16, allowing them to treat this ability like Greater Shadow Conjuration. Any imitated spells that are 4th to 6th level can be cast 3 times per day, and any imitated spells that are 3rd level or below can be cast 5 times per day. It improves once more at level 20, allowing them to treat this ability as though it were Shades. Any spell that is below 3rd level can be cast at will by this point, spells from 4th to 6th level can be cast 5 times per day, and 7th and 8th level spells can be cast 3 times per day. These abilities have caster levels equal to the artiste's class level, and saves based off their charisma.

The World is My Canvas!: The Artiste has reached the point where they no longer need that “children's scribble-book” as a crutch for their powers... for a time at least. At level 14, the Artiste can askew their sketchbook entirely and apply the desired changes directly to reality; this means that they do not need a creature's likeness to affect them with their various abilities, though they are still subject to the limitations of those abilities. For example, rather than capturing the demon's likeness in her sketchbook and then summoning it, the Artiste could simply make the necessary Craft (Sketching) check, and summon a facsimile of the demon right beside her. This ability lasts a number of rounds equal to the Artiste's class level. This ability can be used once per day at level 14, three times per day at level 16, and five times per day at level 18. It becomes permanent at level 20.

[Primal Fury]

{Reserved for Class Specific Feats}

[Primal Fury]

{Reserved for Rituals}

[arguskos]

I really dig this class... but you're missing weapons/armor proficiencies. :smalltongue:

Also, why does the Artiste have UMD as a class skill?

[Kuma Kode]

I was wondering about Use Magic Device myself.

However, this class is pretty sweetastic, even though it reminds me of that boss from Kirby (http://kirby.wikia.com/wiki/Ado).

[Primal Fury]

Fixed the proficiencies. Thanks for spotting that.

To be honest, I don't know why I put Use Magic Device on their skill list. :smallconfused: It just seemed like something all skill-reliant non-casters should have.

And I'm thinking about raising their skill points per level to 8, since they rely on those skill for ALL of their abilities. How does that sound?

[zagan]

I love the flavor, a few detail though:


Mightier than the Sword: By drawing a quick slash over his targets likeness, the Artiste adds a bit of truth to this old saying. On a successful Craft (Sketching) check (DC = target's AC) the Artiste causes 1d6 damage. This damage increases by 1d6 at level two, and again every even numbered level thereafter to a maximum of 11d6 at level 20. This ability can be used at will.

I suppose it's a standard action but saying so would be nice, I know some optimiser that would assume it's a free action.:smallwink:


Ink-Heart: Beginning at level 6, an Artiste can call any creature who's likeness they possess into being. For the most part, this ability functions as the Summon Monster spell with a caster level equal to the Artiste's class level. These creatures are clearly facsimiles, as they are made out of nothing but ink and have no color, so there is no chance of disguising them as their more natural counterparts. This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to the Artiste's Charisma modifier.
Note: It is recommended that the DM prohibit the summoning of other PCs in this way. Though some sort of transportation ability would be a viable alternative.

Here I need clarification first the artiste use art imitate art to sketch a creature in their sketchbook. After that they can summon the creature, I assume that the reference to the summon monsters spell is only their to calculate duration ? That seem powerfull particulary if they only need to observe the creature to sketch it, even with the limit of class level + charisma with 20 cha the artist only need a 22 to sketch a CR 12 creature at level 6 (when they get Ink-Heart.)

Adding an ability to summon an ally might be nice.

Regarding the sketchbook, i suppose that you need two hand to make a sketch seem evident but adding precision never hurt.

I'm sorry to niptick but I really like the idea and I want to help.

[Godskook]

Mightier than the sword seems overpowered. Doing (level/2 + 1)d6 damage at-will, with what seems to be infinite range seems over the top. Did I miss the range on it? If you need to be within a certain range(like, 60ft), it isn't too bad then, being comparable to a warlock's eldritch blast.

Actually, the skill versus AC part is wonky too, since skills and AC scale differently. I mean, the 'normal' L1 AC is between 10-20, while the 'normal' L1 attack bonus is 0-10. Now, the 'normal' craft(sketching) bonus one of these guys is walking around with at L1? 13, off the top of my head, and that's without magic items or any serious optimization(read: I'm assuming a +4 from int instead of +5).

As far as skills per level, 8 is incredibly excessive. This is a backline int-based character, using a whole 2 skills for class abilities. Wizards get 2+int, so you'll have to argue really hard to get more than that. Rogues get 8+int because they're MAD enough that a int-based rogue is sacrificing a lot to get a high int, while a the wizard sacrifices almost nothing to get it, and neither does this class. 6(what you have now) still seems excessive, and 4 may be doable, but 8 is over the top, I think. (I'd have to read deeper into the class to be sure one way or the other)

[deuxhero]

Capstone was cool untill "Once per day", not only does it go against the flavor right above it, but the wording gets wonky after that (how would using it with pen is mightyer work?)

[Primal Fury]

@zagan: Hmph. You and your nitpickery. :smalltongue: And how would you suggest I fix Ink Heart if it's too powerful?

@Godskook: I suppose you have a point about the skill points, considering all the things they can do with just two skills. And I'll be sure to add range to Mightier than the Sword. And where did you get those figures from? :smallconfused: From what I can tell, the Craft (Sketching) check at level one woud be... like... 7 for someone with an average Intelligence. I must be missing something. :smallannoyed:

@deuxhero: So... your saying that The World is My Canvas! should be permenant? Huh. I thought that'd be too much at first. And with Mightier than the Sword, an Artiste encountering something for the first time would only need to make a Craft check to attack them, not to add them to their sketchbook.

[Godskook]

And where did you get those figures from? :smallconfused: From what I can tell, the Craft (Sketching) check at level one woud be... like... 7 for someone with an average Intelligence. I must be missing something. :smallannoyed:

AC and attack bonus were eye-balled. I'm not 100% on them. The craft check was 18 int(either 18 starting or 18 after racial, neither unreasonable for an int-based class), skill focus(craft(sketching)), masterwork craft tools, and max ranks. 4+3+2+4 = 13. That's just core, at L1. Costs 55gp, 1-2 feats(not sure if you need the painting one at L1 or not), and 8 skill points. It is pretty much always a bad idea to mix opposed checks like that, unless the point isn't to make it more difficult but to drain resources(ToB maneuvers are like that sometimes. One requires a jump check followed by an attack roll, but the jump check isn't really there to be failed, its there to ensure your character is jump trained enough to be worthy of using the maneuver(and thus, it drains 1 skill point per level from the PC).

[Primal Fury]

Oh. I didn't take feats and items into account... What would you suggest then?

[Godskook]

Oh. I didn't take feats and items into account... What would you suggest then?

As a general rule, checks are:

skill vs skill
spell/ability DC vs save
attack roll vs AC

skill vs skill is a bad idea, since you either pick a really common skill, and get screwed, or an uncommon one and just win. It is also harder to balance, since some monsters don't scale 1-1 for HD vs. CR, meaning that some monsters will have a lot more skill points than the PC would, while 'PC-like' mooks will have too few(since to be a mook, you'd likely have fewer class levels than the PCs).

DC vs save could work, but you'd need to assign a scale to it. The formula the warlock uses for determining the spell level of its eldritch blast could be used for this, and simply say 10 + 'effective spell level' + mod.

ranged attack roll vs touch AC works, but bad BAB is an issue there(warlocks get medium BAB for theirs). If 90% of your attacking is supposed to be with that ability, I'd go this route. Maybe allow a full-round action for improved damage(by making a craft check?).

[Primal Fury]

I guess a ranged touch attack could work; but that would make them dependant on Dexterity, and I was trying to avoid that whole MAD thing...

[Godskook]

I guess a ranged touch attack could work; but that would make them dependant on Dexterity, and I was trying to avoid that whole MAD thing...

I've not really had the time to really figure out their ability dependence, so what is it? Int for abilities and skills, Con for the obvious, but is there anything else? If not, they're not MAD, they're SAD.

Ah, noticed the Cha for Art imitates Life, but why is that Cha? There's no reason for that to be Cha, is there? Also, basing class mechanics of CR is probably a bad idea because CR isn't exactly a balanced mechanic in the first place.

[flabort]

This seams great, even though i havn't really payed a game yet (still researching it, getting ideas, deciding which books to get and finding potential players).

It seams a little hard to multiclass with this, though. maybe some multiclass-freindly feats would solve that, though. also, Artistic lisence+Ink heart, is obviosly the intended purpose of artistic lisence, but IF some one uses it on, i don't know, the party rouge's riding dog, giving it skeletal+half dragon, or even worse uses it on the party rouge itself...

also, the range shoudn't just be on the Mightyer than the Sword, but also for the healling, and skilled hand of the gaurdian. and probably erease, too.

meh, level 10 is probable just what it is anyways, half-epic, i shouldn't even be whining. i haven't even played a game for myself yet! :D

[Primal Fury]

I've not really had the time to really figure out their ability dependence, so what is it? Int for abilities and skills, Con for the obvious, but is there anything else? If not, they're not MAD, they're SAD.

Ah, noticed the Cha for Art imitates Life, but why is that Cha? There's no reason for that to be Cha, is there? Also, basing class mechanics of CR is probably a bad idea because CR isn't exactly a balanced mechanic in the first place.

Int, Con, Dex. Hm. Your right, that is fine. And I always thought that painters and such were charismatic individuals, sort of like the visual counter part to the bard/singer. And perhaps HD rather than CR?

[The Dark Fiddler]

I really like this class, I need to use it sometime.

I though Charisma was being used because you need to be charismatic to impart your artistic will on reality.

[Primal Fury]

I really like this class, I need to use it sometime.

I though Charisma was being used because you need to be charismatic to impart your artistic will on reality.

Thank you. And YES! THAT was my reasoning behind charisma. And I finally decided on a picture and a quote; though to be honest I almost used this picture right here.

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/Assets/artiste.jpg

:smalltongue:

And I think I'll make a few changes to The World is My Canvas! Namely, make it permenant, have it change all sketching checks to painting checks, and allow them to commit likenesses to memory for later summoning. Maybe.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Neat class.

[Kuma Kode]

You could make Mightier than the Sword DC vs. Will Save...

DC = 10 + 1/2 Artiste's class level + Artiste's Charisma modifier

Essentially it would be the artiste imposing his vision on reality and the target resisting such an imposition.

EDIT: Also, yeah, most things go by Hit Die, so use that instead of Challenge Rating.

[Bakkan]

I really like the idea of this class. I can just see an Artiste standing on a hill overlooking a battlefield, determining the course of battle with a few pencil marks or brush strokes.

That said, I think that as a player I might have an issue with dead levels. In particular, the Artiste gains nothing except hit points and skill points at levels 7, 11, 13, 17, and 19. I think I would probably push back all increases to Mightier than the Sword damage by one level, so that you get +1d6 damage at every odd level to a maximum of 10d6 (and then move Fill in the blanks to level 2). I just know that if I were playing this I would be tempted to multiclass after level 6 for more BAB, saves, or class abilities.

[Admiral Squish]

I like this. I like it a lot.

I have few suggestions, except perhaps making some more powerful or permanent magic go into more 'solid' art. Sculpting for artistic liscense, perhaps, and make it more defined abilities than templates. Templates break easy. Maybe a list of possible 'revisions'? Wings, stronger, faster, etc. Treat it like making a magic item, but lasts as long as the statue is safe, and they get some major damage and lose the benefit if the statue is destroyed.

Or, perhaps just making animated statues instead of summoning ink-monsters?

[zagan]

@zagan: Hmph. You and your nitpickery. And how would you suggest I fix Ink Heart if it's too powerful?

The easiest way would be to limit the CR of creature that can be summon perhaps:
"When using Ink heart an Artist can only summon creature with a CR no greater than their Character level."


Artistic License:.....
Love the flavor of this one fit perfectly but as Flabort said limiting the choice of template aviable would be wise. Axiomatic, Anarchic, Pseudonatural, Fiendish, and Celestial work well for that. Perhaps adding Element or half-elemental creature (Manual of the planes p188) Draconic could fit too (Draconomicon p150) but perhaps not half-dragon. Perhaps also Zombie and Effigy. That give a wide variety of choice but nothing too powerfull.

As for MAD well you need Int for the craft(sketching and painting), Cha for determining the max CR of creature you can affect. Con for Hp as normal they can dump wis because they have a good will save but it could help for spot (on that note requiring a spot check to be able to use Art Imitates Life could fit the flavor but it's perhaps a little too much)

It had been point out that Mightier than the Sword could be too powerfull perhaps with a cool down like a breath weapon ? 1d4+1 round to begin with and gradually lessen as you level up: 1d4 at 5th, 1d3 at 10th and 1d2 at 15th ?
Just tossing in my two copper.

In any case I'm impatient what you are planning for feat and ritual.

[Primal Fury]

@kuma kode: Making it a will save doesn't sound right though. The Artiste isn't imposing their will on the creature, they're imposing their will on reality itself and that doesn't sound like it warrents a will save. But I do plan on expanding on Mightier than the Sword. Rather than just striking them with ink, the Artiste would gain the ability to create various phenomena (sp?) that would either cause more damage, cause specific types of damage (fire, cold, acid etc.) or inflict various unfavorable conditions on their enemies. That having been said, I'll make the first aspect of Mightier than the Sword a ranged touch attack, but most of the other abilities will that involve it will be based on saves. And thanks Godskook. Got that idea from you. :smallwink:

@Bakkan: What I'm doing with Mightier than the Sword might help with the various dead levels, ie attack aspect advances at odd levels, and status/specific aspects advance at even levels.

@Admiral Squish: Your right, why should visual art be confined to just painting? Scuplting is just as pertty. But then that creates the problem of them lugging around all of these little clay statues. That's gonna take a little thinkin to work right. I do like it though.

@zagan: Alright then, I'll make the abilities based off of HD, and limit the summonable things to their class level. I'd like to avoid putting "cooldown" mechanic on Mightier than the Sword, this way, it works like the warlocks blast, and that doesnt have a cooldown. But I love the idea of the other aspects of Mightier than the Sword having cooldowns.

This is goin great guys! Keep them comments a comin'! :smallbiggrin:

[Godskook]

I've been re-reading Mightier than the Sword, and I've realized its gimped*. The CR+Cha limitation you require to even have access to it is, for that single ability, ridiculous. I mean:

PC: I use 'AIL' on the BBEG, in preparation for a MttSword next round!
DM: You can't.
PC: Why the hell not? He's the BBEG, I need to kill him.
DM: You can't use 'AIL' on someone of his CR.
PC: ......

MttSword should probably be pulled out of that ability, or whatever replaces the CR limitation should be moved into the individual abilities that actually need limiting, like Ink Heart. In fact, try this for some rules text for Ink Heart:

Ink-Heart: Beginning at level 6, an Artiste can summon creatures who's likenesses they possess into being. For the most part, this ability functions as the Summon Monster spell with a caster level equal to the Artiste's class level. This ability is treated as having a spell level = min(class level/2), max 9th. Creatures, except at GM approval, must be selected from the appropriate Summon Monster list. The Artiste may summon several, but again as the spell, a lower CR of monsters must be summoned. If this ability is used to replicate a SM spell of at least 2 spell levels below the Artiste's max(Example, a 15th level Artiste choosing to summon 1 large Air Elemental), he may use the ability at-will, but any summons must be dismissed before this is used again this way. For more powerful summons, the ability drains his artistic vision, limiting him to only Cha mod uses per day. The monster summoned may be from These creatures are clearly facsimiles, as they are made out of nothing but ink and have no color, so there is no chance of disguising them as their more natural counterparts.

(Balance-wise, this is roughly equivalent to a summons focused caster using the elemental reserve feat, except with less restrictions on what creature is summoned. Might still be an issue, but definitely better than it was.)

-----

*This is not to negate my earlier comments. Just like keeping the .50 caliber bought for self-defense(from burglars robbing your house) in one safe, and the ammo in another, that's how you should read my comments on this ability. (Said homeowner should buy a sidearm and sleep with it instead, but I'll digress into politics if I keep going...)

[Primal Fury]

I've been re-reading Mightier than the Sword, and I've realized its gimped*. The CR+Cha limitation you require to even have access to it is, for that single ability, ridiculous. I mean:

PC: I use 'AIL' on the BBEG, in preparation for a MttSword next round!
DM: You can't.
PC: Why the hell not? He's the BBEG, I need to kill him.
DM: You can't use 'AIL' on someone of his CR.
PC: .......

Oh Crap. :smalleek: Would it be better if there was no actual limit to AIL? An Artiste could capture whatever image they please, but could only do so much with it?


Ink-Heart: Beginning at level 6, an Artiste can summon creatures who's likenesses they possess into being. For the most part, this ability functions as the Summon Monster spell with a caster level equal to the Artiste's class level. This ability is treated as having a spell level = min(class level/2), max 9th. Creatures, except at GM approval, must be selected from the appropriate Summon Monster list. The Artiste may summon several, but again as the spell, a lower CR of monsters must be summoned. If this ability is used to replicate a SM spell of at least 2 spell levels below the Artiste's max(Example, a 15th level Artiste choosing to summon 1 large Air Elemental), he may use the ability at-will, but any summons must be dismissed before this is used again this way. For more powerful summons, the ability drains his artistic vision, limiting him to only Cha mod uses per day. The monster summoned may be from These creatures are clearly facsimiles, as they are made out of nothing but ink and have no color, so there is no chance of disguising them as their more natural counterparts.

(Balance-wise, this is roughly equivalent to a summons focused caster using the elemental reserve feat, except with less restrictions on what creature is summoned. Might still be an issue, but definitely better than it was.)


You know... that's the thing I always hated about the Summon Monster tree. What the crap is a 20th level wizard/sorcerer doing running around and summoning CR 9-12 creatures when they're fighting a freaking Great Wyrm dragon? Sorry, but I don't like it. :smallannoyed:

[Godskook]

Oh Crap. :smalleek: Would it be better if there was no actual limit to AIL? An Artiste could capture whatever image they please, but could only do so much with it?

Yes, it would. Putting the cap on the individual uses one by one would be far better(and not at all for mightier than the sword).


You know... that's the thing I always hated about the Summon Monster tree. What the crap is a 20th level wizard/sorcerer doing running around and summoning CR 9-12 creatures when they're fighting a freaking Great Wyrm dragon? Sorry, but I don't like it. :smallannoyed:

Heh, and here I am still worried that I didn't nerf it enough...

Have you read up on the malconvoker (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872758/Mastering_the_Malconvoker)? Try reading treantmonk's guide on it, then tell me what you think...

[Primal Fury]

There. Changed the abilities to be based off of targets HD rather than CR.

And I looked at the Malconvoker, Godskook, and I see what you mean. Would the change from CR to HD determined IH alliviate those problems a bit? I really don't see the problem with summoning something that's...

*facepalm* Overshadowing the other players. :smallannoyed: An Artiste that could summon a strong enough monster could make some other members of the party feel useless by comparison. ARGH! :smallfurious: But I don't want to limit it to just the Summon Monster lists; that's... that's... boring. :smallfrown:

[zagan]

Perhaps when you summon it you apply the Ink template, a template that weaken the creature.

The Ink template:

Ink is a template that can be applied to any creature
Ink creature uses all the base creature’s statistics and abilities except as noted here. Do not recalculate the creature’s Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saves, or skill points if its type changes.

Size and Type: Animals or vermin with this template become magical beasts, but otherwise the creature type is unchanged. Size is unchanged.

Hit dice and Hit point: The creature number of hit dice is unchanged but adjusted bonus hit point accordingly to his new constitution modifier if any.

Speed: Unchanged

Armor class: If the creature posses a natural armor bonus halves it to a minumum of 1 otherwise only apply the new dexterity modifier.


Base attack bonus: Unchanged

Attacks: An Ink creature retain all natural weapon and weapon proeficiencies of the base creature.

Special Attacks: An Ink creature retains all the special attacks of the base creature but the caster level for their spell-like ability is halves to a minimum of 1, and if using the special attacks demand a concious effort the Ink creature must be ordered to do so.

Special Qualities: An ink creature retain any special quality of the base creature.

Abilities: An ink creature gain the following adjustement to their ability score:
-4 Str, +0 Dex, - 2 Con, no Int, -4 Wis, -4 Cha

An Ink creature can't act independently and can only follow order, giving order to an Ink creature is a move action, but several Ink creature can follow the same order if able.

Skill and Feat: An Ink creature retain all skill exept the one base on Int and all Feat but if using the feat demand a concious effort the Ink creature must be ordered to do so.

Environment: Any

Challenge Rating: - 2 ?

Alignement: Always neutral.

Advancement: none


Just an idea hope that help.

[Primal Fury]

Now... I love the idea behind that template, but... all it does is weaken the creature... alot, and nothing else. Maybe if there were, like... one benefical ability, it'd be more palatable. Maybe... some damage reduction? You'd think that things made of ink were at least slightly resistant to damage, right?

[Godskook]

And I looked at the Malconvoker, Godskook, and I see what you mean. Would the change from CR to HD determined IH alliviate those problems a bit? I really don't see the problem with summoning something that's...

No, HD is as bad as CR for this purpose. A huge air elemental has 16 HD and a CR of 7. Using my version, you can summon one at 13th level, and summon one at will at 17th. And then there's a druid(a perfectly legal summon, originally), that has HD = CR. Should an Artiste capable of summoning a huge air elemental be able to summon a L7 druid or L16 druid?


*facepalm* Overshadowing the other players. :smallannoyed: An Artiste that could summon a strong enough monster could make some other members of the party feel useless by comparison. ARGH! :smallfurious: But I don't want to limit it to just the Summon Monster lists; that's... that's... boring. :smallfrown:

Then add additional monsters, using the current lists as a base for what is and isn't ok.

[Primal Fury]

And then there's a druid(a perfectly legal summon, originally), that has HD = CR. Should an Artiste capable of summoning a huge air elemental be able to summon a L7 druid or L16 druid?


You're... gonna have to explain ths one to me. :smallconfused:

[deuxhero]

Player Class levels generally add +1 CR per level.

[zagan]

I have to agree with primal fury on that Godskook your explanation left me confused too.

I'm glad you like my ink template feel free to modify it homewer you want.
DR I'm not sure. Pehraps:

Blinding shot: The Ink creature can as a standard action make a range touch attack against one creature no more than 30ft away . If succesfull the subjet is covered in Ink and is blind, the creature can use a standard action to wipe the ink away. In any case the Ink disappear after 1d4 round.

How that sound ? Flavorfull, usefull and not too powerfull I hope. if blind is too powerfull perhaps another condition could work.

[Godskook]

You're... gonna have to explain ths one to me. :smallconfused:

Without specific lists, anything the Artiste wants to create, he can, meaning full abuse of the HD/CR system.

Some CR 7 options:

16 HD huge air elemental
7th level druid
A druid 7/rogue 7, due to non-associated levels

Point? CR can't be used alone as a limiting mechanic.

Some HD ~7 options:

A CR 5 large air elemental(8 HD, but we'll let him have that one)
A 7th level human druid
A CR 11 7th level Lich sorcerer
A 7th level CW samurai

Point? HD can't be used alone as a limiting mechanic.

All HD were not created equal. All CR was not created equal. Neither can be used as a 'fire and forget' limitation like save DCs, AC, or skill checks can.

[Primal Fury]

Wait zagan... If the summons are composed entirely of ink... wouldn't they be constructs instead?

And... you are right, Godskook. Being able to summon a 17th level druid is scary as hell. :smalleek: And I suppose using those monsters from the "Summon" table would make a good baseline for it's own lists. Got more thinkin ta do.

[Sudduth]

Wait zagan... If the summons are composed entirely of ink... wouldn't they be constructs instead?

And... you are right, Godskook. Being able to summon a 17th level druid is scary as hell. :smalleek: And I suppose using those monsters from the "Summon" table would make a good baseline for it's own lists. Got more thinkin ta do.

I was also going to use the monsters from the "Summon Monster" table, as base monsters that are able to be summoned. But once per day a Pictomancer could summon any creature they see with a lower or equal CR to their caster level. Trying giving that some though. Something tells me that you and I should spitball ideas at each other to create this class together since we had basically the same idea.

[Primal Fury]

Oh. I like that idea Sudduth. They've got the regular Summon Monster stuff, so it's not too out there; but once per day, they can bring out one of their heavy hitters. Nice. :smallwink:

[Sudduth]

I looked at the abilites of a cleric and taking that into account the pictomancer/artiste is hardly overpowered inthe aspect of summoning monsters.

[Primal Fury]

That's not entirely true. The way I had it before, the Artiste could apparently summon a druid equal to his level if he encountered one in the past, as Godskook pointed out. :smallredface:

[Sudduth]

That's not entirely true. The way I had it before, the Artiste could apparently summon a druid equal to his level if he encountered one in the past, as Godskook pointed out. :smallredface:

I guess the summoning still needs some work. How about they can't summon base races such as Elf's, Orcs, Humans, Gnomes, ect.? Or maybe we could give it an INT cap.

[Primal Fury]

Wait... what if... the ink template scaled with the HD of the creature? They would keep their BAB, HD, saves, and natural abilities, but lose access to their class abilities. In exchange, they'd recieve various abilities related to ink, such as that Blinding Shot zagan mentioned. It makes all targets viable, but strips away what would make them such powerful summons. Sure, the Artiste could summon the last BBEG the party encountered, but he'd be a twisted mockery of his former self without access to what made him so dangerous in the first place.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Crap, they lose their natural abilities too. An Ink Pitfiend would still be a friggin Pitfiend.

[Sudduth]

I would just say they have all of their abilities but they have touch AC.

[zagan]

Wait zagan... If the summons are composed entirely of ink... wouldn't they be constructs instead?

Yes, I have think about it but the construct type give a bunch of immunity that wouldn't help balance the problem.

Making the creature lose ability from class level except hit dice and save could totaly work so our Druid 7 would be reduce to a 7d8, good fort, poor ref, good will save creature that should discourage the artist from using ink heart on that type of creature.

As for your pitfiend example, changing the Ink template to remove spell like ability and supernatural ability would help, most notably no more summoning other creature in that case.
Perhaps you could had a GP cost on the Ink base on the size of the creature ! in that case it's still usefull for the very big figth but in other situation smaller creature would be more usefull and less costly.

You could also add a need to concentrate on the artist part that way he can't do anything but move while is summon fight for him.

[Primal Fury]

Yes, I have think about it but the construct type give a bunch of immunity that wouldn't help balance the problem.
...What about applying the Living Construct subtype? They'd still have a few immunities (poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, and energy drain), but not nearly as many as a regualr construct.


Perhaps you could had a GP cost on the Ink base on the size of the creature ! in that case it's still usefull for the very big figth but in other situation smaller creature would be more usefull and less costly.
I... don't know about this one. Let me think on it for a bit.


You could also add a need to concentrate on the artist part that way he can't do anything but move while is summon fight for him.
I like it, but I would only apply their need to concentrate to their once-a-day summon, since that one would require a considerable amount of effort to control and direct, whereas the weaker summons have a greater degree of autonomy.

[zagan]

Perhaps you could had a GP cost on the Ink base on the size of the creature ! in that case it's still usefull for the very big figth but in other situation smaller creature would be more usefull and less costly.
...What about applying the Living Construct subtype? They'd still have a few immunities (poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, and energy drain), but not nearly as many as a regualr construct.

Yes, that could work nicely as I said feel free to change the Ink template in any way you think appropriate.




Perhaps you could had a GP cost on the Ink base on the size of the creature ! in that case it's still usefull for the very big figth but in other situation smaller creature would be more usefull and less costly.
I... don't know about this one. Let me think on it for a bit.

I don't like it much myself but it's a potential balancing factor.




You could also add a need to concentrate on the artist part that way he can't do anything but move while is summon fight for him.
I like it, but I would only apply their need to concentrate to their once-a-day summon, since that one would require a considerable amount of effort to control and direct, whereas the weaker summons have a greater degree of autonomy.


Yeah, that's cool.

Perhaps you could add the current change to the text in your first post that way we have a better global view of thing.

[Eloel]

But once per day a Pictomancer could summon any creature they see with a lower or equal CR to their caster level.
So, they can basically summon another Artiste of the same level, which can summon another Artiste of the same level... Infinite chain is infinite...

[zagan]

That's an exellent point ozgun92, it will need to be adressed properly.
It was suggested that the summon creature lose all class ability so summoning another artist would be useless.

[Primal Fury]

Perhaps you could add the current change to the text in your first post that way we have a better global view of thing.

I'll try to do that some time tonight. Lotsa boring RL stuff to do. :smalltongue:

[zagan]

I was thinking for art imitate life perhaps instead of HD or CR you could give the creature a Will save with a DC equal to either your craft(sketching) check (perhaps too easy too boost) or against 10+half class level(minimum 1)+Cha mod.
It become harder (too hard ?) for the artist too add creature to his sketchbook but it might be more balancing.

[Sudduth]

So, they can basically summon another Artiste of the same level, which can summon another Artiste of the same level... Infinite chain is infinite...

Yes, but what DM would allow that?

[GreatWyrmGold]

I have an idea for a varient, a new class, or a prestige class or something.

The battle-drawer.

They can add in creatures (Summon Monster/Nature's Ally), heal, harm, etc. It could be a "caster"...I'll think about doing it as a new class.

[Sudduth]

I have an idea for a varient, a new class, or a prestige class or something.

The battle-drawer.

They can add in creatures (Summon Monster/Nature's Ally), heal, harm, etc. It could be a "caster"...I'll think about doing it as a new class.

So you're basically doing what we are thinking of? XD
Also, might want to think of a better name there chief.:smallfrown:

[GreatWyrmGold]

So you're basically doing what we are thinking of? XD
Also, might want to think of a better name there chief.:smallfrown:

I hope I can come up with something better than I did in 3 seconds!

Also, I was thinking about doing, say, only PmttS, Conj, Evoc, and maybe some Trans, and putting it together as a sort of wizard/warlock hybrid with reflavoring.

[Primal Fury]

Alright... I gave them 3/4's BAB to account for MttSword now requiring a ranged touch attack, moved the progression of MttSword down a level, moved FitBlanks, SHotGuardian, and HtCLikeness up a level. I'm a little worried about HtCL topping out at level 16 though... I also changed the duration of many of the abilities for hours to minutes since we don't need PCs walking around with 16 extra strength and con for hours on end, but I feel I should change it to their CL in minutes rather than their Cha modifier.

But levels 14, 16, and 18 are still dead. Any suggestions?

[Sudduth]

Alright... I gave them 3/4's BAB to account for MttSword now requiring a ranged touch attack, moved the progression of MttSword down a level, moved FitBlanks, SHotGuardian, and HtCLikeness up a level. I'm a little worried about HtCL topping out at level 16 though... I also changed the duration of many of the abilities for hours to minutes since we don't need PCs walking around with 16 extra strength and con for hours on end, but I feel I should change it to their CL in minutes rather than their Cha modifier.

But levels 14, 16, and 18 are still dead. Any suggestions?

The one thing I still don't understand at this site are the Acronyms.

[zagan]

Okay, it's better still need to adress a number of thing but it's a better base.
Art imitate life need and/ort Ink heart need to be limit in some way, personnaly I'm partial to going back to CR or using a will save or a combinaison of both.

Migthier than sword is nice you could perhaps give the option at the dead level to give it a damage type.

Ink-heart as already discuss need a change the Ink template might be a good start do you want me to rewrite it with the change we discuss ?

For Honing the Captured Likeness might just want to precise the time need to do it, 10 minute ?

Limiting the template avaiable with Artistic License is indispensable and if you end up using the Ink template it need to be apllied last otherwise they might regain an Int score.

For The World is My Canvas, more time per day might be better (3/day ?), but it's my personnal opinion I never really like ability only usable once.

[Primal Fury]

Okay, it's better still need to adress a number of thing but it's a better base.
Art imitate life need and/ort Ink heart need to be limit in some way, personnaly I'm partial to going back to CR or using a will save or a combinaison of both.
I don't plan on putting a limit on AIL. Not only is it not actually affecting the creature, but that would make it impossible to affect certain things. A will save would make them useless against undead and constructs, and CR makes them useless against things who's CR's are too high. See Godskooks example.


Migthier than sword is nice you could perhaps give the option at the dead level to give it a damage type.
I'm working on that already.


Ink-heart as already discuss need a change the Ink template might be a good start do you want me to rewrite it with the change we discuss ?
I plan on using Godskooks iteration of Ink-Heart in post number... which one was it? Yeah, look at post number 26. And number 38. Those, plus a few additions, should form the skeleton of the new Ink-Heart. Plus I've got my own ideas for the Ink template, just need a bit more time. :smallwink:


For Honing the Captured Likeness might just want to precise the time need to do it, 10 minute ?
That sounds like a good idea. Especailly since stats go up and down all the time.


Limiting the template avaiable with Artistic License is indispensable and if you end up using the Ink template it need to be apllied last otherwise they might regain an Int score.
I plan on limiting the templates added, but also adding custom... aspects for lack of a better term. Such as the Nightmare aspect for example. This gives the creature Frightful Presence, and increases all it's natural weapon damages by one step.


For The World is My Canvas, more time per day might be better (3/day ?), but it's my personnal opinion I never really like ability only usable once.
See post number 16. Those are some changes I was thinking about making.

[zagan]

Yes, sorry didn't see that :smallredface: in that case i will wait until you make all the change before commenting further.

[Sudduth]

For Honing the Captured Likeness might just want to precise the time need to do it, 10 minute ?

For this a number of rounds or turns might suffice. Some DM's and players still have trouble determining how to apply real life time into a TRPG.

[Primal Fury]

There. Made the changes to Ink-Heart. Gotta work on the Ink template now.

[GreatWyrmGold]

For this a number of rounds or turns might suffice. Some DM's and players still have trouble determining how to apply real life time into a TRPG.

They could always use the standard rule that 1 round=6 seconds...

[Sudduth]

So 100 rounds = 1 Drawing?

[zagan]

So 100 rounds = 1 Drawing?

Yes, 100 round to tranform a sketch into a painting with detail and everything.

[Fizban]

Posting before I've read the whole thread so I don't lose my train of thought:

Great class, simple mechanics, I like. Quick thoughts: need clarification on Ink-Heart: I assume it's a standard action but you didn't say. The first sentence is also broken.

Second, I'd suggest using Astral Construct instead of Summon Monster. The way it's set up, and indeed the way that makes the idea awesome, is drawing pictures of things you see and then summoning them. The problem is, this will rarely match up with the Summon Monster lists: Astral Construct has a deliberately abstract form with a menu of abilities to choose from that you could use to approximate most monsters with a bit of work. It does make it feel more generic, but it also makes more sense than trying pick a monster off Summon list to approximate a large dragon. Or you could try a mix, using a summon spell list if the sketch appears on one, and approximating it with an astral construct if it doesn't.

Third, I'd improve it some. Let them summon non-unique creatures of CR= level*2-1 at 8th level 1/day, then cha/day at 12th level. There are 4th level spells that pull the equivalent CR summon with concentration duration, so that's when I'd start with it, and by 12th level it should be fine to allow multiple times per day, especially being pretty much their iconic ability. Oh, and you'd use the same pool for top level Summon Monster(Construct) and concentration summon, since they're both effectively top level spells. Might also allow concentration summon at -4 of normal CR at will, but that's probably pushing it too far.

Fourth, you need some more abilities between 12th and 20th level. I'd pull back The World is My Canvas to a lower level, might as well be 14, with limited uses per day, and make it constant at 20th level. I'd like to see more buff abilities at all levels, but I don't have much inspiration that's not just ripping off the bard or duplicating spells. I'd say add some SR and energy resistance, but the more generic resistances you add, the cheaper it feels.

And after reading thread:

So it looks like you're going to make an ink template so you can summon whatever you want. Not a bad idea, but unless you remove all the creatures nifty attacks (skeletonize it), you won't standardize it, and if you do it won't feel like the creature unless it was already a bruiser. Then again, if you're going for summoning hollow pencil sketches that does kind of work. I'd prefer Astral Construct to a generic template myself, maybe adding a few options to play with size in case you want a smaller guy with full power, and I'd table out what you can do with the psionic abilities for ease of use (it's just energy bolts and poison and stuff anyway). For the concentration summon I'd stick with CR: as long as it's limited use/day, it should only show up in combat where CR is the appropriate measure over HD. Usually creatures with tons of HD for their CR don't have much more than basic attacks, but I'd definitely include a clause that removes spellcasting, and spell-like abilities higher than level*2-5. Applying a template to the concentration summon is a good idea if you use the Astral idea (or even if you don't), to keep the ink-unity, but I'd make it a template that doesn't remove most of their stuff. Changing their type to construct would dramatically reduce hp and save DCs on supernatural abilities, and you could drop their charisma if you're worried about other high DCs overshadowing other characters. Dropping those to a baseline also makes adding templates with Artistic Liscence matter a lot more, since you can template creatures to improve durability or magic power.

On Artistic Liscence, I love the sandbox fun of just smacking any template on something you've drawn. While it could easily be broken, I'd say let it ride anyway. The word "encounter" has a particular meaning in DnD: while someone can roll for initiative pretty much whenever they want to react to something, they do have to see something to do so, and they'd need to see it for a full round to sketch it. This means the Artiste is limited by what you let them see, and even duplicating NPCs and adding templates isn't too bad if you limit their spells and drop their hp from lack of constitution. Seriously, how awesome would it be to paint some extra tentacles on the dragon that just kicked your butt and pit the two against each other?

Ooh, new high level ability idea: Simulacrum. Let them take a painting and blow the xp and gp required for a Simulacrum spell to make it permanent at half HD.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Great class, simple mechanics, I like. Quick thoughts: need clarification on Ink-Heart: I assume it's a standard action but you didn't say. The first sentence is also broken.

I think the first sentence is "broken" because we're still trying to figure out how to "fix" that ability.

[Primal Fury]

You've got a whole lot of great ideas, Fizban. Especially that astral construct idea, that's definately goin in there as soon as possible. :smallwink:

Sorry I've been a little slow with the updates, I've been sidetracked by an idea for an entirely different base class. :smallredface:

[The Dark Fiddler]

Was it a Morbo base class?

Cause you know, that'd be awesome. It's only class skill would be Intimidate, and its only ability would be to cause things to stop working that way.

[Primal Fury]

There. Added the Astral Construct thing to Ink-Heart.

And no Dark Fiddler. :smalltongue: It is not a Morbo base class. It's actually another Far Realms base class. I've been trying to colaborate with RoC on it since it's still just an idea with no mechanics.

EDIT: Also, I already made a feat that does exactly that. :smallwink:

[The Dark Fiddler]

EDIT: Also, I already made a feat that does exactly that. :smallwink:

Is it that Epic-Feat with the Mythbusters reference in the title?

[Primal Fury]

Indeed it is.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Awesome.

Also, have I mentioned that this class strike me as perfect for somebody angry at the world (escape through art, and make the world better?)

I think it would match well with a character that had the That God Never Saw (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118887) template, if it weren't for the Charisma Penalty.

Actually, I plan on using a character just like this in my campaign as an antagonist.

[Primal Fury]

Ooo. Interesting idea for a 3 dimensional villian. Glad to see someone's gonna put mah work to good use. :smallwink:

[Primal Fury]

I'm also gonna steal Fizban's idea about Simulacrum. I've also been thinking about giving them Shadow Evocation and it's Greater counterpart to help even out their offensive abilities.

[Fizban]

Yay! I'm contributing!

[Primal Fury]

OH! With Mightier than the Sword, they can mimic the affects of Shadow Conjuration at level 12, Shadow Evocation at level 14, Greater Shadow Conjuration at 16, and Greater Shadow Evocation at level 18. That fills out all the dead levels, and give them access to some nifty tricks too. They would of course have some limitations, but I can see that working nicely.

But then again, if I throw in Simulacrum at some point, I might not even need all of those... What do you guys think?

[zagan]

That's a great idea using the shadow line of spell.
You might want to limit them to spell doing damage otherwise they could become a little too versatile and the class could be too powerfull. I'm not sure.

[Primal Fury]

OH! The Simulacrum type ability can be the true capstone! Rather than just conjuring a creature, they are giving true and permanant life to their art!! And isn't that the goal of every artist ever? Well?! Isn't it?!?! :smallfurious: :smallwink:

And to zagan... I never really understood the problem with having a lot of options. How can something be "too versatile"?:smallconfused: It's certainly not on the wizards level that's for sure. It might not even be up to the sorcerer's level of power. But then again it might be... I'll need to take a closer look at it. Tier 2 might be too high... But that's always a level of power I've been very comfortable with.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Yay! I'm contributing!

Glad to hear it.

Working on the battle-drawer (I like that name, it is a name that suggests that it's not much, but is really...something.)

[Primal Fury]

You'd better not step all over my class Great Gold Wyrm. If you do, there might be... consequences. :smallwink:

[zagan]

Well as far as versatility go the artist can do direct damage, summoning, buffing is allie with DR or Template and Healing. If you add the shadow spell, they can summon some more, replicate spell like cloud kill and replicate any type of damage with evocation spell. Add simulacrum depending if they need the xp or not and they can create the double of any creature permanently (or until destroy)
That's a lot of versatility and power not exactly wizard but damn close.
If that's the power level you want then great but the more powerfull the class is the less a Dm will be willing to let his player use it.
I don't want to sound harsh, the idea behind the class is great I just think that limiting is power could be a good thing.
Take that as you will.

[Primal Fury]

Ah yes, I can see your point now, zagan. I am sorry about that. :smallredface: We only need one "Shadow" spell line. Since their conjuring is already on par with many other spellcasters (and since they'll be able to conjure other stuff with the right feats) I believe we can use Shadow Evocation.

We'll move The World Is My Canvas! back to level 14 and usable once per day. The uses will increase by 2 at levels 16 and 18, leaving them at 3 and 5 respectively. Ultimatley, ability will be permanent at level 20.

I'm not sure what level I want to put the Shadow Evocation-esuqe ability at. I'm thinking 10 or 12. Regardless, Greater Shadow Evocation will be at level 18, effectively one spell level later than a sorcerer would get it.

Finally, the true capstone will be similar to the Simulacrum spell. They pay 100 gold and XP per HD of the creature to make it real and permenant. This'll be like a... once per week thing or something.

Thoughts?

[Fizban]

Sounds good to me. My only issue with the idea of more versatility is that if you get too versatile it starts looking like wizard lite, which takes away from the class being it's own thing: hence wanting to avoid duplicating too many spells. Astral Construct, Shadow Evocation, and Simulacrum should be fine since they don't try to reach too far. I think the meat of the class should be the CR based summon specific creature ability, and right now that's still got the most bang of any of the abilities, so I'm good.

Question: if you make a simulacrum, is it a straight simulacrum of the sketched target, or is it a simulacrum of the sketched target with template from Artistic License? I vote latter. And speaking of Simulacrum, if it's meant to create actual life you'll probably want to remove the clause where it obeys your every command, sadly this makes it far less useful. I'd also take a moment to clarify the healing of simulacrums if they're going to be an important ability: The spell outlines an outrageously expensive mode of repairing them, but they don't have any listed healing immunity so you have no reason to use it (much like the craft construct feat repair mode when you could just cast a repair spell).

[zagan]

Ah yes, I can see your point now, zagan. I am sorry about that. :smallredface: We only need one "Shadow" spell line. Since their conjuring is already on par with many other spellcasters (and since they'll be able to conjure other stuff with the right feats) I believe we can use Shadow Evocation.

We'll move The World Is My Canvas! back to level 14 and usable once per day. The uses will increase by 2 at levels 16 and 18, leaving them at 3 and 5 respectively. Ultimatley, ability will be permanent at level 20.

I'm not sure what level I want to put the Shadow Evocation-esuqe ability at. I'm thinking 10 or 12. Regardless, Greater Shadow Evocation will be at level 18, effectively one spell level later than a sorcerer would get it.

Finally, the true capstone will be similar to the Simulacrum spell. They pay 100 gold and XP per HD of the creature to make it real and permenant. This'll be like a... once per week thing or something.

Thoughts?

That seem perfect, perhaps just add that they can only have one simulacrum at time, (and that the simulacrum can't have is own simulacrum scratch that you need to be level 40 for that at that level its perfectly reasonable.:smallwink:) and that shoud be perfect.

[Person_Man]

When I read your class, I thought of Sai (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sai) from Naruto.

Also, I think you should give the Artist 1/2 BAB (the same as Wizards and Psions). They're essentially casters, and their primary class abilities don't depend on their ability to hit.

Fill in the dead levels (14, 16, 18) with interesting abilities.

The mechanics of your abilities are clunky. In particular, linking thing to a Skill check is dangerous, as Skill checks can easily be boosted to ridiculous levels.

It's a solid idea though. I hope you play test it and refine it.

[Godskook]

@Person_Man, I believe 3/4 BAB was due to changing Mightier than the sword to a touch attack, to keep this in line with a Warlock.

[Primal Fury]

@Fizban: I can kind of understand the reasoning behind not making something subserviant to you in that case. Though, at the very least, I'd have the creature start with an attitude of Helpful towards the Artiste, regardless of alignment.

@zagan: I rather like the idea of having a "gallery" filled with living masterpieces. But I suppose I could make the ability itself so expensive that it would be incredibly impracticle to spam it.

@Person Man: Looks like you didn't read the whole thread. :smallwink: I've already addressed the dead level problem. The skill checks stay. I really can't think of any other way to capture the whole "Artist" feel than that. And I think it's quite cracker-jack, if I do say so myself. And the BAB stays as well. I do not want their only consistant, at-will method of attack to fail again and again just because they can't hit someones touch AC.

[Primal Fury]

No. No. No. No. No. :smallfrown:

Now I've got it into my head that the Artiste should have the Shadow Conjuration line of spells instead of the Shadow Evocation line. I know it's wrong; I really do. But it just sounds so tasty. QUICK! Somebody use logic to tell me how sick and wrong this is!! :smalleek:

[zagan]

I hope I'm quick enough.

A) Because they could spam summoning spell to have lot of critter at the same time, slowing down combat, stealing the spotlight for the other player and neccesiting massive bookkepping.

B) Because you will need to roll percentile dice all the time and it got borring fast.

C) Because the creation line of spell is mostly compose of cloud or wall nothing an artist would want to draw.

Did it work ?:smallbiggrin:

[Primal Fury]

...GAH! It didn't work!! The first point can be fixed by creating a clause that only allows them to benefit from one of their summoning abilities at any given time.

Point 2: Percentile rolls actually add a "Mimicry" feel to the ability. An artiste may TRY to imitate arcance spells by drawing them, but that doesn't mean they're "real" enough to work. Art is FULL of successes and failures!

Point 3: But that's the problem! They're drawing real things rather than abstract expressions of magic! Which makes more sense: An artiste drawing a ball of fire that suddenly shoots out at his opponent, or drawing a wall of whatever to protect himself from said opponent? The worst part is that Conjuration is more thematically appropriate!!! :smalleek:

Logic... You have failed me... :smallfrown:

[zagan]

Well in that case you could forget about shadow evocation entirely and perhaps remove other thing to compensate. Don't know what though.

[Primal Fury]

But would that really be so bad though? I'm looking over those spells in the SRD right now, and it doesn't seem like you could break a whole lot with just those two. Especially since they're only partially real to begin with. Regardless of the spell effect it creates, it allows SR, and a will save to disbelieve it on top of whatever other save the actual spell effect requires.

[zagan]

Yes, for the spell in the SRD that's true, but player a rarely limit by that while looking in the speel compendium I just found a spell that usable at will without material component is really overpowered (in my humble opinion, but I'm no expert)
Create magic tatoo (conjuration creation) sorc/wiz 2 (Spc p55)
You make a craft (painting, drawing or similar) and the target get a tatoo that generate various bonus for 24 hour depending on your caster level and the dc of the craft check. The spell take 10 minute to cast and cost 100gp per casting, at will without the gp cost and you have every morning the whole party is outfit with three or four tatoo that give them a huge advantge.

And that's only the first spell I find, the point I'm trying to make is that the save DC matter only on harmfull spell and even then if you can do it at will the target will always fail after a time. The player won't always have the luxury to do so but it might matter.
My point being that conjuration creation and summoning are way harder to balance against than evocation simply because 90% of the time evoction is dealing direct damage.

If your comfortable with that level of power go for it, but as I said some DM may be really reluctant letting an homebrew class into their game if it look owerpowered.

I'll make you a deal once the class is really finnished I'll be willing to DM a short solo campaign or arena to test it that way we can see thing more clearly (I'm a newby DM so I don't know if it would be that useful of a test)

You could also make a prestige class to go with shadow conjuration.

On a side note the spell I found would also make a cool idea for a Prc for the artist.

[Primal Fury]

What the... I never said the spell would be at will... did I? Maybe like... 3/day at first.

And the will save DOES matter. They would have to disbelieve the summoned creature, or the wall of stone in front of them, or the acid breath coming out of the gnome in order for them to not be affected by it, or at least be affected by it to a significantly lesser extent.

[zagan]

If it's limit in that fashion I have no more objection, I was thinking at will because when you begin mentionning it it was a waration of mightier than sword. Sorry.

The will save matter only if the target is an enemy for a buff like the one I mentionne or even a simple mage armor the target is an allie so he can fail the save voluntarely.

[Primal Fury]

If it's limit in that fashion I have no more objection, I was thinking at will because when you begin mentionning it it was a waration of mightier than sword. Sorry.
Thats my fault actually. I should have made that a bit clearer.


The will save matter only if the target is an enemy for a buff like the one I mentionne or even a simple mage armor the target is an allie so he can fail the save voluntarely.
Really??? I thought that it would require a will save on the part of the enemies attacking that person with mage armor too, since it IS affecting them, albeit in a more indirect manner. Can someone confirm this? Or do I have to start a new thread in the other sub-forum?

[Sudduth]

One thing I've noticed is that MTTS does lethal damage, wich I don't see to be needed, instead make a spell that kills a person. Or just let them do it the 'ole fashion way with a sword. However MTTS is really unbelieveable, I mean I want to see what the enemy looks like when he feels this horrible feeling making him hurt, or does something actualy come out and cut him? If that's the case then I could see it from loss of blood. I suppose it all is about what type of damage does MTTS do? Bludgeing, Slashing, Peircing?

[Primal Fury]

You make a good point Sudduth. The best way I can describe it is by comparing it to something else: Okami. Basically, a large line of ink materializes across the enemies body, slashing them. Like someone actually drawing violently over them. So... yeah, it'd do slashing damage.

[Sudduth]

So can it actually do a cut them and break the skin? Or does it just blunty slide across them like in Okami?

[Primal Fury]

Cutting and breaking the skin. So it wouldn't be terribly effective on monsters with damage reduction against certain types of damage (skeletons and I think zombies to), at least at early levels.

EDIT: OH! Status change! I'm an Orc now. :smallbiggrin:

[Sudduth]

Also are we making it to where the objects have mass? Such as, could the enemy grab the thing that is slashing them if they were fool-hardy enough to do so? If so then we need to make sure that it's known that they can be parried. If they can then they could make things such as bridges and other items to do construction work. That may be what most of them do for a living if this is the case.

[zagan]

Really??? I thought that it would require a will save on the part of the enemies attacking that person with mage armor too, since it IS affecting them, albeit in a more indirect manner. Can someone confirm this? Or do I have to start a new thread in the other sub-forum?

Suddendly I have a doubt, the attack bonus and other thing like that the magic tatoo can give I'm sure about but for mage armor you might be right I'm not sure.
But if it's limit to 3/day I doubt they use it for buff spell. Still knowing the an official rulling on that point might be nice.

[Primal Fury]

Okay. Added The Lowest Form of Art, changed the name of Artisitic License to Artistic Freedom, and moved The World Is My Canvas! back a few levels. I'm working on the Simulacrum-like ability now, which will be called Masterpiece.

[Sudduth]

I like the new changes. Seems like this thing is really getting on the road.

[Gan The Grey]

Like the class alot.

On your Guardian circle thing, it says the DC = HD. That means that you can pretty much NEVER fail, as it is doubtful you'll ever be running around with people who's HD are more than a level or two above yours. Didn't you mean DC = 10 + HD?

[Primal Fury]

You made a good point Gan. So I changed it to HD + 15.

[Sudduth]

You made a good point Gan. So I changed it to HD + 15.

Great Idea.

[Primal Fury]

I've also been considering just going all the way up the Shadow Conjuration tree and giving them access to Shades at level 20. And rather than giving them multiple spell-like abilities, I was thinking about just upgrading the one, allowing them to make the spells they imitate more and more real as the grow in power.

[Sudduth]

I've also been considering just going all the way up the Shadow Conjuration tree and giving them access to Shades at level 20. And rather than giving them multiple spell-like abilities, I was thinking about just upgrading the one, allowing them to make the spells they imitate more and more real as the grow in power.

Nah, I wouldn't do that. Shades are only 20% as powerful as the real thing right? So what good does making a drawing of an item that is 20% as durable as the real thing do? However the upgrading their own spells I like that. I won't think that they should go just like a wizard as just get more and more spells as time goes on.:smallamused:

[Primal Fury]

Actually thats the way that ALL shadow conjuration spells are. But with Shades, both the likelyhood of them occuring and the damage done on a successful will save increase to 80%.

[Sudduth]

But with Shades, both the likelyhood of them occuring and the damage done on a successful will save increase to 80%.

Then that seems a lot more useful.

[Primal Fury]

There. Added the changes to The Lowest Form of Art. I'll get to work on the fluff and Masterpiece.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Hey... I'm sick, so I have practically nothing to do right now. Do you need an example character? I'd be happy to make one.

[flabort]

Oh, this is still active? yay!...

BTW, i've been wondering... when are you going to be working on those feats?

and, I see that, as far as you have, ALL the artists abilities are in black and white... maybe, his abilities get stronger by working in color, but it takes longer, and he is taxed more, so that working in color drains, say, energy, health, or other things? just wondering, you know, since shades of grey are kind of dull. some people are really good with it, true, but others are better in color...

[Primal Fury]

Hey... I'm sick, so I have practically nothing to do right now. Do you need an example character? I'd be happy to make one.

Thanks Fiddler. It'd be great if you could do that. I'm still working on this stuff, I've just had a lot of work to do. But I should have a little more free time after this week is over.

And you might have a point flabort, but I think I've already got painting in there. Painting is more of a support based ability, and now that I think about it I should probably make Filling in the Blanks based off of the painting skill, and maybe a few other changes too.

[Jokasti]

I have one thing to say, and one thing only:
MOST AWESOME CLASS EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CAN I HAVE YOUR BABIESS???
That is all.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Thanks Fiddler. It'd be great if you could do that. I'm still working on this stuff, I've just had a lot of work to do. But I should have a little more free time after this week is over.

And you might have a point flabort, but I think I've already got painting in there. Painting is more of a support based ability, and now that I think about it I should probably make Filling in the Blanks based off of the painting skill, and maybe a few other changes too.

Right, do you want stat block, or character sheet?

Also, it might take a bit longer now; I'm back in school.

[Primal Fury]

Hm. Why don't you make a character sheet for that villian you were talking about earlier. You know the one with the "That God Never Saw" template. Put in some backstory, some personality, and some round-by-round tactics. Hope that's not too much. :smallwink:

[The Dark Fiddler]

Well, gotta make one anyway for my PBP game.

...wait, some of those people stalk my posts...

IF YOU ACT IN CHARACTER ON THIS, I KILL YOU!

I'll have it done sometime soon.*

*For sometime soon, see promised updates of twice weekly for my Let's Play. :smalltongue:

Ok, I've been working on it, and a few things I've noticed.

Most of the things need to state what type of action they are or how long they take. Honing the Captured Likeness in particular, since it apparently can't be used in battle (which I agree with, but I just think it needs a time).

The DC for using Ink-Heart to summon a creature from the Sketchbook is still needed.

The Ink template still needs to be added to the beginning of the thread somewhere.

We still need a way to get more Sketchbooks.

Mightier than the Sword need a range and damage type. Additionally, since it IS an attack roll, can it crit?

I know its still a work in progress, but these are some of the things I noticed working on it. A few are important at the moment, but none are preventing the example character from being made completely, just making it a bit harder.

[Primal Fury]

Well crap. I didnt realize I had missed that much. I'll make sure to fix that as soon as I can. :smallwink:

[Debihuman]

Interesting class. Your writing could use a little work. You tend to use single subjects with plural reflexives and possessive.

Shouldn't using a sketchbook with one hand put the Artiste a -2 penalty to his Craft (Sketching) skill? Otherwise, there is no point to even mentioning this fact.

I think you may have hamstrung the Artiste by making Honing the Captured Likeness and Artistic Freedom too difficult to use. When you use a skill ckeck, the modifier is your skill + roll of a d20. Normal DCs are the Target's HD + 10. When you start giving out penalties by 10 and by 20, you are almost guaranteeing that an Artiste cannot succeed. Rather, there should be circumstance penalties. If the target is moviing, if the artiste is moving, etc. These should be up to the DM. If the target is concealed in any way, the DC would be higher. That's the sort of thing that should affect the modifier not the penalties you meted out.

Of course, the first thing any intelligent opponent will do is simply take the sketchbook and render the artiste impotent in battle. The sketchbook is a much more obvious thing than a spellbook because a wizard doesn't have to use his spellbook to cast spells while an artiste would need the sketchbook handy to be effective. It's a liability in battle.

One thing you never mention is how long does it take an Artiste to sketch a likeness of a creature. That is something that needs to be remedied. It takes a wizard 24 hours to copy a spell into his spellbook.

Debby

[Sir Shadow]

Debi hit pretty much everything I was concerned about.


One thing you never mention is how long does it take an Artiste to sketch a likeness of a creature. That is something that needs to be remedied. It takes a wizard 24 hours to copy a spell into his spellbook.

He does say, in Art imitates Life it takes a full-round action that provokes an attack of opportunity to sketch a creature. I think it's perfectly fine considering that you can't just paint ONE goblin and have it effect ALL goblins. You basically have to sketch every creature you ever want to affect with your abilities.

However, certain other abilities are missing time-frames, like Honing. All you say is that it can't be used in combat. Since it only lasts a few minutes, giving us an idea of how long it takes to hone the image will be good.

For Honing, I'd suggest making it a full-round action that provokes AoO and allowing it to be used in combat. Make its duration = rounds/CHA modifier. Right now, it's not very useful at all unless you're planning an ambush, 4-5 minutes pass very quickly outside of combat.

As for the short duration, you could say that the artiste quickly finds imperfections and ways to improve upon the work he had thought complete mere seconds ago (as any artist, you can ALWAYS find ways to nitpick about a piece of work).

[Primal Fury]

Well... now that I think about it, that is a pretty crippling weakness. So how would you suggest I fix the whole... "useless without sketchbook" part?