Did the Snarl ever exist?

[Sewblon]

So far we have only seen it in the crayon flashbacks, Blackwing couldn't see any sign of it when he looked into the rift and you would think that if it could actually kill gods the gods would have intervened by now. Judging from the way the gods treated the humanoids they seem to be pretty amoral. Maybe they got into a disagreement with the greek gods so they trapped them inside the OOTS world with the first world they made, and passed the myth of the snarl onto mortals when the rifts appeared to cover it up.

[Bibliomancer]

That wouldn't explain how they overwhelmed the gods so easily and constructed a complete error-free world under their noses. The greeks would have had to do something truly despicable (more than the affairs of Zeus in the classical myths) for the other 3 pantheons to agree to that whole-heartedly.

Also, who was the opponent of the Order of the Scribble if the Snarl did not exist?

[Acero]

yes.


we don't trust Shinjo enough to believe he was lieing

[ref]

Who is this Shinjo you talk about?

[Shale]

He sent Miko-Chul to arrest the Order of the Stick, remember?

[krossbow]

the only ones who would have knowlege of the snarl killing the old gods in the old world however would have been the gods themselves. hence the only way mortals would know of it now would be by accounts given to them by the gods.


Not to lean too much towards God of War II's view of them, but gods DO lie when it suits them.

[Surprise!]

Who's Shinjo?




Surprised so one's pointed out the Diary of the Order of the Scribble. If a first hand documentation is not enough for you, what else do you need?

[krossbow]

Who's Shinjo?




Surprised so one's pointed out the Diary of the Order of the Scribble. If a first hand documentation is not enough for you, what else do you need?


They were attacked by chaotic energies emerging from a rift between dimensions. Something like that is bound to have dangers. It doesn't neccesarily imply the existence of thought or life behind it however.

As an example, simply because space contains asteroids and radiation does not mean that its inhabited by angry radiation and rock elementals bent on ramming into interlopers. However, primitive man or people, upon being told what occurs in space might leap to that occurence out of ignorance.

[Surprise!]

They were attacked by chaotic energies emerging from a rift between dimensions. Something like that is bound to have dangers. It doesn't neccesarily imply the existence of thought or life behind it however.

As an example, simply because space contains asteroids and radiation does not mean that its inhabited by angry radiation and rock elementals bent on ramming into interlopers. However, primitive man or people, upon being told what occurs in space might leap to that occurence out of ignorance.

True but the illustration is identical to that which represents Snarl in the story. I am not trying to imply the theory doesn't have merit. It's just the other one has substantial proof of something more then a floating planet, and it is definitely Snarl shaped.


Plus, Shinjo must be that GwtH everyone obsesses over.

[AxeD]

So far we have only seen it in the crayon flashbacks, Blackwing couldn't see any sign of it when he looked into the rift and you would think that if it could actually kill gods the gods would have intervened by now. Judging from the way the gods treated the humanoids they seem to be pretty amoral. Maybe they got into a disagreement with the greek gods so they trapped them inside the OOTS world with the first world they made, and passed the myth of the snarl onto mortals when the rifts appeared to cover it up.

Interesting theory. However 2 facts debunk it:

SoD spoiler:

Redcloak was given a divine message from the Dark One informing him of the snarl/rifts/gates. I highly doubt that the god of all goblinkind would trick his loyal followers into a meaningless quest just for the lulz.


Also, the IFCC heard about the gates from Sabine and I find it unlikely that demons/devils/fiends of their stature would be pooling their resources on a fictional god-killing entity. Since they're in contact with Tiamat, who looks a lot like the multi-headed dragon who told the Dark One about the rift/snarl, it's a good bet that they had some knowledge and are now trying to take advantage of it.

[multilis]

"The greek gods were seduced by the chaotic side of the force: they ceased to be gods and became Darth Snarl; when that happened, the good ones who were your family was destroyed. So, what I told you was true...from a certain point of view." - Rat explaining to Herkules Earthwalker in Start of Darth, volume VI

[Sewblon]

Interesting theory. However 2 facts debunk it:

SoD spoiler:

Redcloak was given a divine message from the Dark One informing him of the snarl/rifts/gates. I highly doubt that the god of all goblinkind would trick his loyal followers into a meaningless quest just for the lulz.


Also, the IFCC heard about the gates from Sabine and I find it unlikely that demons/devils/fiends of their stature would be pooling their resources on a fictional god-killing entity. Since they're in contact with Tiamat, who looks a lot like the multi-headed dragon who told the Dark One about the rift/snarl, it's a good bet that they had some knowledge and are now trying to take advantage of it.

Maybe The Dark One doesn't know the truth. Maybe the original gods elected to keep the truth to themselves and this is all them playing Xanatos Speed Chess(look it up on TVtropes.org) against everyone else.

[Sewblon]

That wouldn't explain how they overwhelmed the gods so easily and constructed a complete error-free world under their noses. The greeks would have had to do something truly despicable (more than the affairs of Zeus in the classical myths) for the other 3 pantheons to agree to that whole-heartedly.

Also, who was the opponent of the Order of the Scribble if the Snarl did not exist?

If you look at stories like how they sentenced one of their own to have his liver eaten and regrown forever the Greek gods could be really spiteful, petty, and amoral, so it is plausible that they could arouse the enmity of the other pantheons. It is also plausible that if the other pantheons all worked in tandem they could defeat the Greek gods.

[Azukar]

Plus, Shinjo must be that GwtH everyone obsesses over.

Siiiigh. For the benefit of this thread, let's just get this over with. Obviously, Acero means Lord Shojo, former ruler of the Sapphire Guard and Azure City.

[Thrax]

I believe that other pantheons were just too jealous of some people believing in Greek gods, so they just attacked them en masse (three pantheons against one) and imprisoned them inside the new world, together with the old one. Snarl was then made up by the three pantheons to freak out anybody from trying to come through. When Soon's wife discovered the gap, one of the pantheons killed her and told Soon it was a... (moment of thinking, "damn, how could I call that thing...") Snarl! We know the rest of the story.

[Trixie]

If you look at stories like how they sentenced one of their own to have his liver eaten and regrown forever the Greek gods could be really spiteful, petty, and amoral, so it is plausible that they could arouse the enmity of the other pantheons. It is also plausible that if the other pantheons all worked tandem they could defeat the Greek gods.

First, not one of their own, but a random man to punish him for stealing fire, and second, 90% of tales between various religions tend to be (almost) identical. Just look at Mithra or Sol Invictus to see what I mean.

[theinsulabot]

playing Xanatos Speed Chess(look it up on TVtropes.org) against everyone else.

no dont, its a trap!

[Ron Miel]

First, not one of their own, but a random man to punish him for stealing fire ...

Not a man, he was a Titan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus

As for the existence of the Snarl, we have only second-hand accounts and hearsay to go on. The sources are:
1) Shojo's account in the crayons of time mini-arc.
2) Redcloak's account in SOD.

SOD Spoilers (very minor) follow


For Redcloak's story, we know that the gods concealed the information from The Dark One, until Loki told him. Then The Dark One yold Redcloak. Then Redcloak told Xykon. Along the way there is room for the story to get distorted. Maybe Loki lied to TDO, maybe TDO didn't tell Redcloak everything, and we know certainly that Redcloak distorted the story he told to Xykon.

We don't know where The Order Of The Scribble got their information from. Perhaps they interrogated one of Redcloak's predecessors. Then Soon told the information to Shojo's father, who told it to Shojo, who told the Order Of The Stick. Again it's a chain of hearsay, with the possibility that it has been distorted somewhere along the way.

The first hand evidence strongly hints that the nature of The Snarl has been misunderstood, at a minimum.

[Larkspur]

Surely the Order of the Scribble would have noticed the absence of the Snarl when they were making the gates? Also, if there's no Snarl, what petrified Kraagor?*

Xykon had Serini's diary, so we can assume that whatever she wrote was consistent with Redcloak's crayon exposition, or Xykon would have discussed the discrepancy with Redcloak and we'd have heard something about it by now. We can therefore conclude with reasonable confidence that some Snarl-like entity is attacking people out of the rifts.

We just can't be confident of its origins or motives, or the scope of its abilities.

SoDAlthough I think we can be pretty confident that the Dark One believes that whatever it is will be powerful enough and aggressive enough to threaten the gods, since there'd be no point to the Plan otherwise. Whether or not the Dark One is justified in this belief is another question.

* Actually, this is a good question in general; that wasn't a simple act of unmaking, so how did the Snarl have the capacity to do that?

[The MunchKING]

I didn't think anything petrefied him. I thought the Snarl killed him, and they just had a statue built to commemerate him.

[Larkspur]

That would explain why he had a pedestal. :smallredface:

Although not how they had the skill or resources to build a statue of him...

[krossbow]

I myself am not disputing that the rifts themselves did release *something* that killed those that neared it. However, nearing a dimensional rift is bound to be dangerous, just as nearing a rift into the elemental plane of fire could just as easily incinerate someone. However, it does not neccecarily indicate a will behind it.

(or heck, it could even be like in Full metal alchemist where there ARE things between the worlds that attack you in route, but they don't neccecarily exist on the other side of the barrier.)

[Sewblon]

Not a man, he was a Titan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus

As for the existence of the Snarl, we have only second-hand accounts and hearsay to go on. The sources are:
1) Shojo's account in the crayons of time mini-arc.
2) Redcloak's account in SOD.

SOD Spoilers (very minor) follow


For Redcloak's story, we know that the gods concealed the information from The Dark One, until Loki told him. Then The Dark One yold Redcloak. Then Redcloak told Xykon. Along the way there is room for the story to get distorted. Maybe Loki lied to TDO, maybe TDO didn't tell Redcloak everything, and we know certainly that Redcloak distorted the story he told to Xykon.

We don't know where The Order Of The Scribble got their information from. Perhaps they interrogated one of Redcloak's predecessors. Then Soon told the information to Shojo's father, who told it to Shojo, who told the Order Of The Stick. Again it's a chain of hearsay, with the possibility that it has been distorted somewhere along the way.

The first hand evidence strongly hints that the nature of The Snarl has been misunderstood, at a minimum.

This is more probable than my original hypothesis. Maybe the original gods never lied to anyone but the story simply became distorted through every retelling; maybe the Greek pantheon simply choose to rule over the world within the rift.

[The MunchKING]

That would explain why he had a pedestal. :smallredface:

Although not how they had the skill or resources to build a statue of him...

You think a posse of the strongest heros in the world (at that time), didn't have 5000 GP to blow on Local artisans??

[Larkspur]

I myself am not disputing that the rifts themselves did release *something* that killed those that neared it. However, nearing a dimensional rift is bound to be dangerous, just as nearing a rift into the elemental plane of fire could just as easily incinerate someone. However, it does not neccecarily indicate a will behind it.

If we take the crayon drawings of the sad fates of chicken!goblin and Mrs. Soon as gospel, the Snarl's got eyes and claws. There's a will there. Whether it is malicious and/or sapient is up for debate.

The FMA theory is not inconsistent with the Snarl as its been related to us by Shojo and Redcloak; for all we know it's orbiting the world inside the rifts and you're quite safe once you reach the planet itself. The gods only sealed it up; it didn't necessarily destroy everything that was sealed in with it.


You think a posse of the strongest heros in the world (at that time), didn't have 5000 GP to blow on Local artisans??

What local artisans? Isn't Kraagor's Gate in the middle of some arctic wasteland? I can't imagine it's right in the center of the dwarven homeland. I suppose they could have gone to Dwarfburg to get it made and then levitated it and transported it somehow.

[Kish]

Dorukan could have just cast Wish, if what they needed was a simple way to create a pedestal.

[Selene]

What local artisans? Isn't Kraagor's Gate in the middle of some arctic wasteland? I can't imagine it's right in the center of the dwarven homeland. I suppose they could have gone to Dwarfburg to get it made and then levitated it and transported it somehow.

Or they could have had the dwarven stonemasons build the statue where they wanted it to go. I mean realistically speaking, it's not often you build a monument in one place and then transport it somewhere else.