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Myrmex
2009-09-22, 09:42 PM
I see people say you can do it, but I haven't seen any non-evocation spells that do large amounts of damage to multiple targets.

Can anyone point out the Conjuration equivalent of Cone of Cold or Fireball?


Shadow Casting doesn't count.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-09-22, 09:55 PM
1st:
Hail stone
2nd:
Ice knife
3rd:
Acid breathe
4th:
Blast of flame
5th:
Vitrolic sphere
6th:
acid storm
acid fog
7 none
8: Incendiary cloud.
9: sphere of ultimate destruction

All of these have an Aoe element to them

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-22, 09:56 PM
Conjuration: Cloudkill
Necromancy: Blackfire

FMArthur
2009-09-22, 10:01 PM
It takes one power known per power level at the most to flawlessly keep your bases covered as a blaster psion. It's just better.

MammonAzrael
2009-09-22, 10:02 PM
If I recall there isn't too much in core, but once you introduce the Spell Compendium, you're set. I think RagnaroksChosen really hit most of it.

You could also go with Necromancy and some corpsecrafter feats to turn all your skeletons into little suicide bombers.

ZeroNumerous
2009-09-22, 10:03 PM
Chain Orb of Whatever?

RagnaroksChosen
2009-09-22, 10:04 PM
I think there is more I just listed the conjuration ones... for some reason i thought he asked about those.

woodenbandman
2009-09-22, 10:07 PM
AT high levels I don't see why anyone would use anything except for Maw of Chaos. Ever. It's 1d6/level, 1 round/level, with daze on the side. It's Abjuration, though.

How about the Acid Fog + Incendiary Cloud combo? Or Acid Fog + anything combo?

Or just Solid Fog + Anything?

Myrmex
2009-09-22, 10:13 PM
Acid Fog & Freezing Fog, while amazing, aren't really blasting. They're battlefield control with a small amount of damage on the side.

I'm looking for instantaneous, AoE damage that isn't evocation, that comes in a d6/CL flavor (or /2CL or d8 or whatever).

Do they exist? Maw of Chaos is pretty amazing, but it's an 8th level spell, isn't it?

quick_comment
2009-09-22, 10:14 PM
AT high levels I don't see why anyone would use anything except for Maw of Chaos. Ever. It's 1d6/level, 1 round/level, with daze on the side. It's Abjuration, though.


Chaotic target?

Cyclocone
2009-09-23, 05:41 AM
Can anyone point out the Conjuration equivalent of Cone of Cold or Fireball?

Arc of Lightning?

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-23, 05:45 AM
Chaotic target?

Not quite. They need the Chaotic subtype to be immune. That's generally things like outsiders that are always chaotic (such as demons).

taltamir
2009-09-23, 12:49 PM
disintegrate!

Godskook
2009-09-23, 01:17 PM
1-target blasters are probably more popular to some people, since there's a better shot of locking down a single foe than with AoE spells(read: kill them). Orb of fire combined with a form of energy substitution or resistance piercing is a good way of doing this. The dual threat(daze + damage) is more likely to deal with an enemy mage than fireball would.

'Course, there's no way that I know of to get a necklace of fireballs, so sometimes, fireballs have their use (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=191).

Keld Denar
2009-09-23, 01:28 PM
Yea, there is Blast of Flame in SpC. Its a 4th level Fireball, identical in every way except that its Conjouration(Creation) instead of Evocation...and 4th level...

Arc Lightning is handy. Its kinda circumstantial, but I've seen some good results with it. Its also on the drood spell list.

Tyrrell
2009-09-23, 01:31 PM
Yea, there is Blast of Flame in SpC. Its a 4th level Fireball, identical in every way except that its Conjouration(Creation) instead of Evocation...and 4th level...

and a cone rather than a burst
and not long range
and not subject to SR

jiriku
2009-09-23, 01:32 PM
Lightning Leap.

Myrmex
2009-09-23, 10:19 PM
1-target blasters are probably more popular to some people, since there's a better shot of locking down a single foe than with AoE spells(read: kill them). Orb of fire combined with a form of energy substitution or resistance piercing is a good way of doing this. The dual threat(daze + damage) is more likely to deal with an enemy mage than fireball would.

'Course, there's no way that I know of to get a necklace of fireballs, so sometimes, fireballs have their use (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=191).

I know that char op really likes high damage single target attacks, since their models all assume a "CR equivalent encounter" is going to be something vanilla from the monster manual or something with PC levels = to party level. In my experience, almost no one runs encounters that way, so AoE blasting often has a use.

taltamir
2009-09-23, 10:21 PM
you know, i never understood the evocation school.
As far as I can tell it is basically "conjure damage dealing primary elements"
Which is quite silly to separate from regular conjuration. Especially when it doesn't give any ADVANTAGE to evokers because a million splat books out there gave the exact same ability to other schools.

quick_comment
2009-09-23, 10:21 PM
I know that char op really likes high damage single target attacks, since their models all assume a "CR equivalent encounter" is going to be something vanilla from the monster manual or something with PC levels = to party level. In my experience, almost no one runs encounters that way, so AoE blasting often has a use.

Or you know, chain spell.

tyckspoon
2009-09-23, 10:28 PM
I know that char op really likes high damage single target attacks, since their models all assume a "CR equivalent encounter" is going to be something vanilla from the monster manual or something with PC levels = to party level. In my experience, almost no one runs encounters that way, so AoE blasting often has a use.

It's not just that- D&D has no wound track or death spiral rules, so an enemy that is at one hit point is 100% as dangerous as one that is at 100 HP. Knocking out a dangerous enemy completely is often much more helpful to the party than spreading damage around evenly.

Plus single-target attacks are much more precise and easily applicable; you don't have to worry about finagling area effect shapes in tight quarters, or getting the rest of the party to discipline themselves and not mix with the enemy before you blast them, or standing up front and exposing yourself so you can release a cone without also bursting your front-liners.. you just pick an enemy and go "hey, you, die now."

Myrmex
2009-09-23, 10:36 PM
It's not just that- D&D has no wound track or death spiral rules, so an enemy that is at one hit point is 100% as dangerous as one that is at 100 HP. Knocking out a dangerous enemy completely is often much more helpful to the party than spreading damage around evenly.

There's a point, though, where it's more efficient to deal 10d6 to 10 enemies than 100d6 to one enemy.

Masses of ranged units, for instance, can really murder a party. Using an orb spell to take them down just won't work. Clouds they can easily move out of.


Plus single-target attacks are much more precise and easily applicable; you don't have to worry about finagling area effect shapes in tight quarters, or getting the rest of the party to discipline themselves and not mix with the enemy before you blast them, or standing up front and exposing yourself so you can release a cone without also bursting your front-liners.. you just pick an enemy and go "hey, you, die now."

Actually, if you have a multiclass wizard who is using touch attacks, a more standard 32 or 28 pb, and have teammates that just charge in, you're more likely to miss, and need to waste actions & resources on quickening True Strike.

If you're blasting, you're going to have metamagic reducers, and Sculpt Spell means you don't have to worry about hitting your friends.

Re: Chain Spell
Chain Spell is cool, but it's +3 LA, allows a reflex save, and reduces the damage you're doing by half to all secondary targets.

tyckspoon
2009-09-23, 11:02 PM
T
Masses of ranged units, for instance, can really murder a party. Using an orb spell to take them down just won't work. Clouds they can easily move out of.


Just how many qualify as 'masses' and how easy to kill are they that you can clean them out with 10d6? *shrug* Either way, I wouldn't bother trying to kill them in that situation. I'd control them- Web, Glitterdust, any of the Walls, even Darkness/Deeper Darkness can all provide excellent protection from ranged attacks. Cut off their line of sight and/or freedom of movement, advance up to them, and say hello with your party's physical fighters inside their ranks.

Godskook
2009-09-23, 11:26 PM
I know that char op really likes high damage single target attacks, since their models all assume a "CR equivalent encounter" is going to be something vanilla from the monster manual or something with PC levels = to party level. In my experience, almost no one runs encounters that way, so AoE blasting often has a use.

I'm not 'parroting' Char-Ops, I'm quoting years of personal experience as a gamer from playing video games. Guild Wars, C&C, warcraft, Final Fantasy, and the list goes on. Doing 75 damage to a single target can often times be more valuable than doing 600(total) damage spread among 12 guys. Its just the way things work. Doing the AoE damage is 'single threat' because all you're doing is hurting HP. Doing single-target damage is 'dual threat' because you're threatening the enemy's action economy on top of the HP damage.


There's a point, though, where it's more efficient to deal 10d6 to 10 enemies than 100d6 to one enemy.

Maybe, but it is less often than not. That's also the 'bad' example(i.e., it compares better for single-target damage), see mine above for the more realistic comparison between AoE and single-target damage.

Milskidasith
2009-09-23, 11:28 PM
I'm not 'parroting' Char-Ops, I'm quoting years of personal experience as a gamer from playing video games. Guild Wars, C&C, warcraft, Final Fantasy, and the list goes on. Doing 75 damage to a single target can often times be more valuable than doing 600(total) damage spread among 12 guys. Its just the way things work. Doing the AoE damage is 'single threat' because all you're doing is hurting HP. Doing single-target damage is 'dual threat' because you're threatening the enemy's action economy on top of the HP damage.



Maybe, but it is less often than not. That's also the 'bad' example(i.e., it compares better for single-target damage), see mine above for the more realistic comparison between AoE and single-target damage.


As a counterpoint for AoE spells, AoE spells that disrupt the action economy (a mass "Save or be stunned") can be better than single level spells that kill one enemy ("save or die"). Just AoE damage isn't great, but AoE action disruption with light damage (like, say, Sound Burst) can be better, in situations where you need to shut down lots of enemies, than a great single target spell (say, Darkbolt.)

Godskook
2009-09-24, 12:10 AM
As a counterpoint for AoE spells, AoE spells that disrupt the action economy (a mass "Save or be stunned") can be better than single level spells that kill one enemy ("save or die"). Just AoE damage isn't great, but AoE action disruption with light damage (like, say, Sound Burst) can be better, in situations where you need to shut down lots of enemies, than a great single target spell (say, Darkbolt.)

1.Sound burst is more control than damage, and is thus a poor spell for use in a discussion focused primarily on the pure strategy of damage distribution.

2.Darkbolt?

Berserk Monk
2009-09-24, 12:11 AM
Was his thread's title a trick question?

Myrmex
2009-09-24, 12:55 AM
I'm not 'parroting' Char-Ops, I'm quoting years of personal experience as a gamer from playing video games. Guild Wars, C&C, warcraft, Final Fantasy, and the list goes on. Doing 75 damage to a single target can often times be more valuable than doing 600(total) damage spread among 12 guys. Its just the way things work. Doing the AoE damage is 'single threat' because all you're doing is hurting HP. Doing single-target damage is 'dual threat' because you're threatening the enemy's action economy on top of the HP damage.

It really depends on how many units are on the battlefield. Every additional enemy makes single target damage less useful.



Maybe, but it is less often than not. That's also the 'bad' example(i.e., it compares better for single-target damage), see mine above for the more realistic comparison between AoE and single-target damage.

With metamagic & reducers, you can pretty much get the damage high enough on an attack to murder anything with one or two hits. Doing enough HP damage to kill something twice is a waste of slots & actions. Taking down one opponent at a time over 10 rounds with 10 4th level spells is much slower than taking two turns to remove all of them with 2 3rd level spells.

quick_comment
2009-09-24, 12:56 AM
It really depends on how many units are on the battlefield. Every additional enemy makes single target damage less useful.



Lancaster's law.

Myrmex
2009-09-24, 01:09 AM
Lancaster's law.

*reads wiki article*

Godskook
2009-09-24, 01:29 AM
It really depends on how many units are on the battlefield. Every additional enemy makes single target damage less useful.

Actually, in C&C, my experience is just the opposite. The more enemies I'm dealing with, the more important it is to make sure I kill one per volley, using focus fire.

It's the same in Guild Wars too. PvP matches devolved into both teams trying to stay alive as best as possible, and seeing who could 'spike' the most damage onto a single enemy fast enough to prevent healing-response from the healers. Single-target was the name of the game.


With metamagic & reducers, you can pretty much get the damage high enough on an attack to murder anything with one or two hits. Doing enough HP damage to kill something twice is a waste of slots & actions. Taking down one opponent at a time over 10 rounds with 10 4th level spells is much slower than taking two turns to remove all of them with 2 3rd level spells.

Well, yeah, if you can do more single target damage with an AoE spell than with a non-AoE spell, that's a moot point, use the AoE. But that's not really what's being discussed. What's being discussed is when you can do more to a single foe with the single-target spell than an AoE does to just that foe. Sure, the overall effect of the AoE may be measurably higher, but it still isn't as valuable as actually killing the single foe(which often goes unmeasured).

Besides, doing AoE damage inherently makes opponents less susceptible to AoE damage(he's lobbing fireballs! Scatter!).

Rule #37 (http://store.schlockmercenary.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=P-R37)

Myrmex
2009-09-24, 01:38 AM
Actually, in C&C, my experience is just the opposite. The more enemies I'm dealing with, the more important it is to make sure I kill one per volley, using focus fire.

It's the same in Guild Wars too. PvP matches devolved into both teams trying to stay alive as best as possible, and seeing who could 'spike' the most damage onto a single enemy fast enough to prevent healing-response from the healers. Single-target was the name of the game.

And I find sorceresses + mortar teams with frag upgrades, and firestorm & blizzard reduces the enemy to a fine, flaming blood mist.


Well, yeah, if you can do more single target damage with an AoE spell than with a non-AoE spell, that's a moot point, use the AoE. But that's not really what's being discussed. What's being discussed is when you can do more to a single foe with the single-target spell than an AoE does to just that foe. Sure, the overall effect of the AoE may be measurably higher, but it still isn't as valuable as actually killing the single foe(which often goes unmeasured).

Again, you need to use math. Let's say we have 100 targets. Killing one target means 99 get to take actions next round. Damaging 20 targets means 100 get to take actions next round. That's a negligible difference.

If you are fighting two opponents, and can take out one this round with a single target spell, then that has a much, much greater advantage.


Besides, doing AoE damage inherently makes opponents less susceptible to AoE damage(he's lobbing fireballs! Scatter!).

Yes, but that both moves them out of their hidey-holes AND makes them more susceptible to death. Using Fog spells or Walls just delays the inevitable- enemy units scatter & reform, without taking damage. You may have moved them to a less advantageous position, but you haven't added damage to that, and those fogs & walls are now a hazard for you.


Rule #37 (http://store.schlockmercenary.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=P-R37)

"I read it on the internet so it must be true!"