PDA

View Full Version : wizard is higher tier than sorc, why?



taltamir
2009-09-23, 12:14 AM
Wizard is considered to be "higher tier" than sorc according to what i heard... why?

1. My guess is the 1 level delay in gaining spells for sorc. do you think that is the case?

2. If your DM houserules that sorcs don't have that, are they now better than wizards? the same? or still worse?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-23, 12:16 AM
The ability to swap out spells is also an advantage.

Zaq
2009-09-23, 12:16 AM
Wizards get more spells known, they have more versatility, they have a better primary casting stat, a better skill list, they get spells one level earlier, and they aren't shafted on metamagic without ACFs or blown feats.

I prefer sorcerers, but it's pretty much empirically provable that wizzies are better. Sad but true.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-23, 12:20 AM
At the higher end of optimization, the difference decreases somewhat due to several tricks available that allow a sorcerer to expand his spells known/change them rapidly.

For example, if you used Limited Wish to duplicate Psychic Reformation as a standard action, you could rechoose all of your spells, skill points, and feats for the price of some XP, which you can gain back by killing things with your improved spell and feat choices.

You can also use Kobolds with Greater Draconic Rites of Passage and Loredrake shenanagans to greatly boost sorcerer level for spells known and etc.

FMArthur
2009-09-23, 12:21 AM
Yep. And with specialization, wizards have all the spell slots they need. And even if their spell slots were equal and they got higher level spells at the same level, prepared casting from your whole, gigantic versatile overpowered spell list is going to come out ahead of spontaneous casting from a very limited, fixed selection.

Radiun
2009-09-23, 12:23 AM
Just another minor issue:
Sorcerers and Wizards are nearly identical.
This means both get 2+int skill points per level.
Well, enough said on that little gripe I suppose.

taltamir
2009-09-23, 12:24 AM
Wizards get more spells known, they have more versatility, they have a better primary casting stat, a better skill list, they get spells one level earlier, and they aren't shafted on metamagic without ACFs or blown feats.

I prefer sorcerers, but it's pretty much empirically provable that wizzies are better. Sad but true.

ah, i forget the feat for metamagic issues... yea, big one.
skills are nice, but do they make you a better caster?

question, is the sorc still worse if it is NOT held back by 1 level? I had DMs that played by that rule before. (although, I actually didn't ASK my current one, I am talking hypothetically).

Godskook
2009-09-23, 12:31 AM
Because the tier system doesn't measure what you think it measures. Tier 1 and Tier 2 are equally powerful, but not equally versatile. A wizard doesn't 'specialize' like a sorcerer does(ironic, no?) since his spells can be altered fairly easily, while the sorcerer's can't.

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-23, 12:33 AM
A friend of mine argues that they're equal, because you can just get candles of invocation to pull in a djinn, using wishes to get more spells known, and that getting every spell in existence (for both of them) makes them perfectly equal.

I call bollocks. Even if both did use evil tricks to get infinite power, infinity +1 is still better than plain old infinity.

Radiun
2009-09-23, 12:33 AM
As an aside: I was under the impression that Sorcerers were also considered top tier.
Lower rungs, sure, but top tier nonetheless (like lower-upper class. Still rich)

tyckspoon
2009-09-23, 12:35 AM
Just another minor issue:
Sorcerers and Wizards are nearly identical.
This means both get 2+int skill points per level.
Well, enough said on that little gripe I suppose.

But Wizards have very powerful mechanical reasons to focus on Int, which drags along increased skill points. Sorcs.. don't. A Wizard who gets an 18 Int to power his primary class ability enjoys 6 skill points/level, and so can afford to actually invest in the sort of skills an arcanist or just any sensible adventurer should have (spellcraft/concentration/Know: Planes/Arcana/cross-class Tumble, for example). The Sorc who has 18 Cha gets to keep up his Spellcraft and Concentration and nothing else.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-23, 12:36 AM
At high end optimization, wizards have Focused Specialist, and Sorcerors have Arcane Fusion.

This makes wizard more adaptable, and sorceror more able to nova.

Also, wizards get Metamagic feats, and better skill points (yes, both are 2 + int, but which class has the higher int?).

Versatility, Metamagic Feats, skills, earlier spell access.

Versus a few more spells per day, and Nova potential.

Sorcerors have to stay varied. They choose power abilities, ones for each save, some for no save, and a few others that are really useful often. They don't focus on a school, so much, as focus on making a list that's universally useful. They may not have the best spell for the job at any time... But they'll spam the second best a few times and go from there.

Godskook
2009-09-23, 12:37 AM
I call bollocks. Even if both did use evil tricks to get infinite power, infinity +1 is still better than plain old infinity.

That's not the bollocks, since the infinity+1 is on the sorcerer's side(wizards can't spont cast as good as them).

The bollocks is the fact that you need candles of invocation to reach 'parity' when I sincerely doubt most DM's will allow candles anymore.

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-23, 12:40 AM
That's not the bollocks, since the infinity+1 is on the sorcerer's side(wizards can't spont cast as good as them).

The bollocks is the fact that you need candles of invocation to reach 'parity' when I sincerely doubt most DM's will allow candles anymore.Wizards would, naturally, wish for more spell slots.

They already get access to every spell, if they want them.

tyckspoon
2009-09-23, 12:42 AM
That's not the bollocks, since the infinity+1 is on the sorcerer's side(wizards can't spont cast as good as them).

The bollocks is the fact that you need candles of invocation to reach 'parity' when I sincerely doubt most DM's will allow candles anymore.

Plus assuming that Wish can in fact grant you more spells known, which is not something you can extract from the 'safe' list and so puts you squarely in the realm of hoping your DM feels like letting it happen. The closest you can get (that I know of within the rules) is Wishing to emulate Psychic Reformation, which will let you repick spells but does not increase your overall number of spells known. (Alternately, you can abuse Chaos Shuffle to get a nigh-infinite number of Extra Spell feats, but a Wizard can do the same thing to get spontaneous casting of all his spells via Spell Mastery + many many selections of Signature Spell anyway. In which case the Wizard is still better, because bonus feats.)

Tyndmyr
2009-09-23, 12:42 AM
Wizards get more spells known, they have more versatility, they have a better primary casting stat, a better skill list, they get spells one level earlier, and they aren't shafted on metamagic without ACFs or blown feats.

I prefer sorcerers, but it's pretty much empirically provable that wizzies are better. Sad but true.

The metamagic problem is the biggest thing that makes me sad about sorcerers. Now, given sufficient optimization, many problems can be mitigated, sure...but it's pretty hard to weigh all the naturally wizard advantages against a large volume of spells per day. I *like* volume of spells, but it's just not enough to make up for all the rest.

Oh, it also seems like wizzies have more good PrCs.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-23, 12:44 AM
Sorcerors have to stay varied. They choose power abilities, ones for each save, some for no save, and a few others that are really useful often. They don't focus on a school, so much, as focus on making a list that's universally useful. They may not have the best spell for the job at any time... But they'll spam the second best a few times and go from there.

Creative thinking can make up for not having the right spell at hand. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6461912&postcount=67)

Radiun
2009-09-23, 12:45 AM
But Wizards have very powerful mechanical reasons to focus on Int, which drags along increased skill points. Sorcs.. don't. A Wizard who gets an 18 Int to power his primary class ability enjoys 6 skill points/level, and so can afford to actually invest in the sort of skills an arcanist or just any sensible adventurer should have (spellcraft/concentration/Know: Planes/Arcana/cross-class Tumble, for example). The Sorc who has 18 Cha gets to keep up his Spellcraft and Concentration and nothing else.

I was letting people come to that conclusion on their own:smalltongue:

tyckspoon
2009-09-23, 12:46 AM
I was letting people come to that conclusion on their own:smalltongue:

Ah, pardon. It's rather hard to tell who's being subtle and who's just being oblivious sometimes.

Radiun
2009-09-23, 12:49 AM
Ah, pardon. It's rather hard to tell who's being subtle and who's just being oblivious sometimes.

No worries, I thought mentioning it was a gripe of mine would hint towards it, but a general distress over both starting at 2 skill points per level is an equally valid interpretation.
In fact, it might be the most natural as, looking back, I didn't end that third line with "..." as I intended to

Shpadoinkle
2009-09-23, 01:09 AM
Unlimited spells known.

Sorcerers are limited by the number of spells they can learn. Wizards can, given enough time and money, theoretically learn EVERY wizard spell in the game.

The difference between sorcerers and wizards when it comes to versatility is like the difference between having a swiss army knife and having an entire chain of hardware stores at your disposal.

taltamir
2009-09-23, 01:16 AM
i have never actually seen a wizard with access to every spell ever... or even to many spells ever.

Sorcerers get enough spell known to take the important ones, and can swap out spells on levelup... and get many more castings per day, without preparation...

The metamagic thing looks like it really hurts. But the versatility thing? meh... the sorc already has the spells that count.

The majority of wizards, while having plenty of spells, only prepare one or two, so they are actually LESS versatile, since the sorcerer can use any spell know, a wizard has less spells per day than the sorc has spells known. What the wizard can do is "fix" bad spell choices by dumping them for good ones (I have done that)... a sorcerer can also do that, but much less often... so if you are experienced enough to not pick junk spells...

I'd wizards have sorcerers beat on:
1. Less costly to fix mistakes
2. Can prepare unique and normally not useful spells for very specific encounters
3. Spell progression, by one level, until level 18 when they equalize.
4. Metamagic / feats due to sorcs mitigating their metamagic penalty.

Sorcerers got wizards on:
1. spells per day.
2. choice (aka, versatility; in some aspects of versatility that is)
3. Better metamagic IF they get the feats to mitigate (no need to waste it if you don't absolutely NEED it).

Rixx
2009-09-23, 01:32 AM
Bah! Sorcerers are funner! While you're over there preparing spells for every situation and stuff I'm over here throwin' out magical hurtin' rays whenever I feel like! Pewpewpew!

Signmaker
2009-09-23, 01:48 AM
i have never actually seen a wizard with access to every spell ever... or even to many spells ever.

Consider:

1. Wizards get two new spells per level.
2. Wizards are usually able to copy scrolled spells in to their spellbook. Even if they didn't, they are usually quite capable of casting said copyable scroll.
3. Any decently-sized city is an opportunity for a wizard to scribe more spells, even if they're only of the low-level variety.

Consider:

Sorcerers can't do that. Barring runestaves and knowstones, they can't 'know' more through items. Even with the barred intact, runestaves are spell-specific while knowstones are dragon magazine material, which most DMs are liable to take with pinches of salt.


That being said, I do believe that with the proper spell choices, a sorcerer has an easier time of breaking the action economy than the wizard does, which lets them A. Nova like no tomorrow and B. Use all those freaking slots already!

Bayar
2009-09-23, 01:57 AM
That's not the bollocks, since the infinity+1 is on the sorcerer's side(wizards can't spont cast as good as them).

The bollocks is the fact that you need candles of invocation to reach 'parity' when I sincerely doubt most DM's will allow candles anymore.

Heh, I remember there was a wizard build that gave you more spells per day and better spontaneous casting than a sorcerer.

Magnor Criol
2009-09-23, 01:58 AM
Bah! Sorcerers are funner! While you're over there preparing spells for every situation and stuff I'm over here throwin' out magical hurtin' rays whenever I feel like! Pewpewpew!

This may be true, but the tier list doesn't test fun-ness, it tests power and versatility. And 'fun' is relative anyhow...in one campaign I'm in right now I'm getting to play an Illumian wizard who's all about knowledge and bookery...and perpared-ness. A spontaneous casting style just plain wouldn't suit him.

(But yes, I tend to agree...the ability to pewpewpew is pretty fun. =p )

taltamir
2009-09-23, 02:46 AM
Consider:

1. Wizards get two new spells per level.
2. Wizards are usually able to copy scrolled spells in to their spellbook. Even if they didn't, they are usually quite capable of casting said copyable scroll.
3. Any decently-sized city is an opportunity for a wizard to scribe more spells, even if they're only of the low-level variety.

Consider:

Sorcerers can't do that. Barring runestaves and knowstones, they can't 'know' more through items. Even with the barred intact, runestaves are spell-specific while knowstones are dragon magazine material, which most DMs are liable to take with pinches of salt.


That being said, I do believe that with the proper spell choices, a sorcerer has an easier time of breaking the action economy than the wizard does, which lets them A. Nova like no tomorrow and B. Use all those freaking slots already!

1. And sorcerers get spell KNOWN per level... excluding cantrips they start off at 1 per level, then it starts alternating between 1 and 2, 1 and 3, finally 1 and 4 per level. Then it goes back down and eventually just 1 per level (at higher levels). While not as many spells known as a wizard, it is "enough" spells to cover all their bases and be very versatile. Especially with ability to swap spells on levelup, swap spells due to research, and emulate spells (shadow conjuration, limited wish, etc... although the wish type ones suck).

2. You can't have it both ways... if there are easily available higher level spells, than any of those utility spells a wizard learns that give him flexability, a sorcerer just carries scrolls / wands of.
If you have to pretty much research it yourself, than a wizard doesn't have THAT big a spell list advantage... and when it comes to PRACTICALITY, a few spells are cast over and over and over... and a sorc can cast them twice as often per day, without having to lock in his choices for the day ahead of time...

let me add them up... in 20 levels
1. a wizard gains: starting spells (3 + int) + 19 x 2 = starting int + 41 spells known
2. a sorc gains: 34 spells known
Both of those exclude level 0 spells... and wizards get way more level 1 spells than other spells... A wizard's known spells though are typically all of the highest level, while sorcs have varying levels... there is also collegiate which doubles wizard known spells...

At very high levels, you finally get the wiz having 2/3 instead of half as many daily spell castings. And is probably rich enough to start leveraging the "spell known" advantage. Still, in most combat situations the same spells get used. A a sorcrer has a huge array of useful spells from various levels he can use.

There is simply much less margin of error with the sorc... and you need to waste feats on metamagic, and you are somewhat limited in metamagic, and you have much less skillpoints.

Kurald Galain
2009-09-23, 03:37 AM
infinity +1 is still better than plain old infinity.

Mathematically speaking, infinitity is the exact same thing as infinity plus one :smallsmile:

(or, alternatively, the latter isn't valid since infinity is not a number and thus addition is not a defined operation on infinity)

[/pedant]

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-23, 03:44 AM
Mathematically speaking, infinitity is the exact same thing as infinity plus one :smallsmile:

(or, alternatively, the latter isn't valid since infinity is not a number and thus addition is not a defined operation on infinity)

[/pedant]

True. Infinity is a limit, not a number.

Killer Angel
2009-09-23, 03:53 AM
Infinity is a limit

Sky is the limit. :smallcool:

On the subject, I've many objections on the tier system, but yes, a wizard is more powerful than a sorcerer, IMO for 4 simple reasons (not necessarly in this order of importance):
The sorc stays one lev. behind in the spell progression.
The primary stat for a wiz. is Int, while cha is a dump stat; the primary stat for a sorc. is Cha, while int. isn't a dump stat.
The wiz. has more spell choice; compensating with scrolls, can be costly, with high levels spells.
The wiz. can use the quickened spell feat.

Bakkan
2009-09-23, 03:57 AM
Mathematically speaking, infinitity is the exact same thing as infinity plus one :smallsmile:

(or, alternatively, the latter isn't valid since infinity is not a number and thus addition is not a defined operation on infinity)

[/pedant]

Mathematically speaking, it depends on whether we're talking about cardinal numbers or ordinal numbers. If cardinal numbers, then for a particular size of infinity, infinity=infinity+1 (but infinity != 2^infinity).

If ordinal numbers, then for a particular ordinal infinity, infinity != infinity+1 (though infinity = 1+infinity)

Thank you, Mr. Cantor.

taltamir
2009-09-23, 03:59 AM
Sky is the limit. :smallcool:

On the subject, I've many objections on the tier system, but yes, a wizard is more powerful than a sorcerer, IMO for 4 simple reasons (not necessarly in this order of importance):
The sorc stays one lev. behind in the spell progression.
The primary stat for a wiz. is Int, while cha is a dump stat; the primary stat for a sorc. is Cha, while int. isn't a dump stat.
The wiz. has more spell choice; compensating with scrolls, can be costly, with high levels spells.
The wiz. can use the quickened spell feat.

#1 - catches up at level 18...

but yes, they are all true points. Definitely more than I thought originally.

Cyclocone
2009-09-23, 05:32 AM
#1 - catches up at level 18...

No he doesn't. A level 18 Sorc knows ONE 9th level spell. A wizard knows as many as he wants.
There is a big difference in versatility here.

The Sorcerers main (remaining) weakness is his low amont of spells known.
At level 20 he knows 3 9ths, 3 8ths, 3 7ths etc. That does, in fact, leave him with relatively little versatility. For instance, he might know Time Stop, Maw of Chaos and Effulgent Eppurtation, but he doesn't know Gate, Mind Rape, Shapechange, Stasis Clone, Disjunction, Reaving Dispel, Black Blade of Disaster, Foresight etc.
A Wizard can afford to know all these spells, including ones he only plans to use occasionally.

Noone is saying Sorcerers are weak, but they are much less versatile than Wizards and don't belong on the same tier.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-23, 09:09 AM
That's not the bollocks, since the infinity+1 is on the sorcerer's side(wizards can't spont cast as good as them).

The bollocks is the fact that you need candles of invocation to reach 'parity' when I sincerely doubt most DM's will allow candles anymore.

Wizards can Spotaneously cast. Mage of the Arcane Order, Uncanny Forethought. Not perfect, but more than enough.

Also, the Sorcerer's spells/day advantage is meaningless, seeing as both classes only need 25 or so spells/day to make it through the day.



Noone is saying Sorcerers are weak, but they are much less versatile than Wizards and don't belong on the same tier.

The Wizard does have one key advantage over the Sorcerer when it comes to class design: 5 total bonus feats over 20 levels. Doesn't sound like much, but the Sorcerer only has 2 total class features (familiar and spellcasting). The Wizard has either 3 or 4 (if you don't count Scribe Scroll with the other bonus feats).

Agreed otherwise.

Godskook
2009-09-23, 09:46 AM
2. You can't have it both ways... if there are easily available higher level spells, than any of those utility spells a wizard learns that give him flexability, a sorcerer just carries scrolls / wands of.
If you have to pretty much research it yourself, than a wizard doesn't have THAT big a spell list advantage... and when it comes to PRACTICALITY, a few spells are cast over and over and over... and a sorc can cast them twice as often per day, without having to lock in his choices for the day ahead of time...

Compare:

Wizards can copy said scroll, and then cast it forever, for essentially 'free'(~1000gp, one-time). He still retains the original usefulness of the scroll indefinitely, or he can sell it for the GP.

Sorcerers either use the scroll, or sell it.

Does that really sound comparable to you?

woodenbandman
2009-09-23, 09:48 AM
Sorceror builds can spend their entire 20 levels building up to 2 or 3 cunning combos to wreak upon their enemies.

Wizards choose to prepare 2 or 3 cunning combos for every level of spell that they have.

valadil
2009-09-23, 09:55 AM
Spells known aside,

Wizards focus in int, sorcs in cha. Int is usually better.
Wizards learn their spells a level early.
Wizards get scribe scroll plus 4 metamagic or crafting feats for free.
Wizard metamagic doesn't take a full round action; quicken spell works out of the box.

Also, divination helps a wizard more. If he sees what's coming in the next day he can prepare for it. If a sorcerer divines the next day's challenge he won't be able to change up his spells list accordingly. I think this is the big argument that most players make.

However, I've played both quite a bit. My wizard went from level 1 to 24 and had all the spells in the PHB. It was powerful, but sucked to play. Memorizing all those spells took hours. Metamagic only made it worse. I don't think it's possible to plan spells for hours on end without making a mistake somewhere along the way. On the contrary, my sorcerers have been easier. You stress over your spell list, but you only do this outside of game. When it comes time to play you can focus on making whatever choices serve the moment. I made fewer mistakes as a sorcerer and that made it more fun for me. I don't know that I'd go back to a wizard after getting used to a sorc (although, I also don't know if I'd play a sorc who didn't have some way of speeding up metamagic).

Talya
2009-09-23, 10:34 AM
Spells known aside,

Wizards focus in int, sorcs in cha. Int is usually better.


Usually, although you can break more stuff with a high Cha. Also, Ruin Delver's Fortune is virtually useless to a wizard, but any sorcerer without it should probably be slapped.

Signmaker
2009-09-23, 10:36 AM
1. And sorcerers get spell KNOWN per level... excluding cantrips they start off at 1 per level, then it starts alternating between 1 and 2, 1 and 3, finally 1 and 4 per level. Then it goes back down and eventually just 1 per level (at higher levels). While not as many spells known as a wizard, it is "enough" spells to cover all their bases and be very versatile. Especially with ability to swap spells on levelup, swap spells due to research, and emulate spells (shadow conjuration, limited wish, etc... although the wish type ones suck).

That's more or less my point. Sorcerers are, ultimately, limited in spell choice, which is why they HAVE to pick a good spell selection. Meanwhile, wizards can crib extra known spells off of scrolls, libraries, and other wizards.



2. You can't have it both ways... if there are easily available higher level spells, than any of those utility spells a wizard learns that give him flexability, a sorcerer just carries scrolls / wands of.
If you have to pretty much research it yourself, than a wizard doesn't have THAT big a spell list advantage... and when it comes to PRACTICALITY, a few spells are cast over and over and over... and a sorc can cast them twice as often per day, without having to lock in his choices for the day ahead of time...

Actually... consider the fact that the wizard automatically has scribe scroll, and the sorcerer does not. Also consider that once a wizard learns a spell, he can scribe as many scrolls of it as he pleases, for half the cost (and a minor exp investment, but the gain is much more than the tribute). The same can be done once he has craft wand with wands. So yes, a sorcerer can grab UMD items the same way that wizards can. However, wizards can, by nature, afford more of them via crafting(double the amount, minus the initial cost investment to get the spell).

Edit: Apparently, this point got made by Godskook before I could defend my point. Go you!

Wizard-
1. Learn spell (artificially[scroll,plot] or naturally).
2. Create UMD items of learned spell.
3. Save UMDed spell for when the situation calls for it, thus allowing them to have not only more spell versatility per day, but artificially more spells per day.

Sorcerer-
1. Learn spell (naturally, or via Runestave/Knowstone)
2. =/= Wizard2, as crafting backups of spells you have an ample supply of is silly. Instead, 2 is buying UMD items of spells you DON'T know which, by Wizard step 1, the wizard already knows.
3. Save UMDed spells for when the situation calls for it, thus allowing them to have more spell versatility than a sorcerer that hasn't done the above. However, due to GP constraints, the number of spells available isn't as much as the wizard, and having more spells per day is a given, though highly redundant (sorcerer).



Coming around full-circle, wizards have more spells known, and now have enough spells per day and redundancies that they don't have to worry about nitpicking and choice as much. Sorcerers have more spells owned (rather than known), and have what can now be considered a metric ton of spells per day.

Once again coming to my point that while wizards have the upper hand in most scenarios, the sorcerer CAN catch up via telling the action economy to close its eyes and count to ten while they spellsurge arcane fusion after fusion.

Cyclocone
2009-09-23, 10:43 AM
The Wizard does have one key advantage over the Sorcerer when it comes to class design: 5 total bonus feats over 20 levels. Doesn't sound like much, but the Sorcerer only has 2 total class features (familiar and spellcasting). The Wizard has either 3 or 4 (if you don't count Scribe Scroll with the other bonus feats).

Agreed otherwise.

And then Sorcerers have to waste a feat on Rapid Metamagic just to catch up to the Wizard in the MM department.
They could, of course, also take MM Specialist ACF, except it's arbitrarily INT-powered.:smallsigh:

Nero24200
2009-09-23, 12:02 PM
Sorcerers do lag behind, but for me the big reason is simply the spell level lag. I can handle not being as versitile as others, but it does peeve lagging behind spell levels, and this is comming from a person who has played sorcerers in groups that doesn't include wizards, but clerics and druids who are getting spell levels faster than me.

quick_comment
2009-09-23, 12:23 PM
Usually, although you can break more stuff with a high Cha. Also, Ruin Delver's Fortune is virtually useless to a wizard, but any sorcerer without it should probably be slapped.

Also sirene's grace.



Anyway, I think sorcerers are better in gestalt because its really easy to make that charisma do lots of stuff. Sorcerer//Monk/Paladin/Hexblade/Witch Slayer/Wilder/Spellstiched Necropolitan. Take ascetic mage.

This gives you charisma to your spellcasting, Twice to your AC, saves, saves again vs arcane spells, and 10+cha for your SR (or is it 15?). If your DM lets you add the dry lich template, you then get charisma in place of con for your HP.


Then you persist sirene's grace and ruin delver's fortune, and you get cha to AC a third time, and cha to a save for a third time.

The Neoclassic
2009-09-23, 12:32 PM
Related question... So it wouldn't hurt balance at all if sorcerers got no delay learning spell levels? In other words, if they learned 3rd level spells at 5th level like wizards do, that wouldn't cause any game issues?

quick_comment
2009-09-23, 12:34 PM
Related question... So it wouldn't hurt balance at all if sorcerers got no delay learning spell levels? In other words, if they learned 3rd level spells at 5th level like wizards do, that wouldn't cause any game issues?

That would be perfectly fine. Just dont give them that and then allow loredrake and greater draconic rite of passage on top of it.

Eldariel
2009-09-23, 12:34 PM
Related question... So it wouldn't hurt balance at all if sorcerers got no delay learning spell levels? In other words, if they learned 3rd level spells at 5th level like wizards do, that wouldn't cause any game issues?

Nope, absolutely not. Unless you're allowing Loredrake Kobolds.

quick_comment
2009-09-23, 12:36 PM
Actually, that would be pretty hilarious.

White dragonspawn loredrake with greater draconic rite of passage, with bought off LA. 3 levels of sorcerer, is able to cast level 3 spells.

Talya
2009-09-23, 12:38 PM
Related question... So it wouldn't hurt balance at all if sorcerers got no delay learning spell levels? In other words, if they learned 3rd level spells at 5th level like wizards do, that wouldn't cause any game issues?


I'll second what the others replied with, but add a qualifier:

It won't hurt balance any more than wizards and clerics and druids already do. If you're balancing the sorcerer against the wizard, your solution is good. If you're balancing them against the monk, well...I suppose it can't actually make it noticeably worse, but it wouldn't help, that's for sure.

Lunix Vandal
2009-09-23, 12:45 PM
Mathematically speaking, it depends on whether we're talking about cardinal numbers or ordinal numbers. If cardinal numbers, then for a particular size of infinity, infinity=infinity+1 (but infinity != 2^infinity).

If ordinal numbers, then for a particular ordinal infinity, infinity != infinity+1 (though infinity = 1+infinity)

Thank you, Mr. Cantor.Or, for that matter, you can set up infinity > infinity. How?
N, Z, and Q (the sets of all natural, integer, and rational numbers, respectively) have same cardinality -- aleph-zero or "countably infinite."
R, I, and C (the sets of all real, irrational, and complex numbers, respectively) also have the same cardinality -- but in this case it's aleph-one, which is much, much bigger than aleph-zero. So much so that there's more real numbers in the interval [0,1] in R than there are in the entire set of natural numbers. (Incidentally, there's exactly as many reals in [0,1] as in (-infinity,infinity), but that's because R is awesome like that.)

Back on topic, Sorcerers can't pull out the full "Batman Wizard" setup without boosting their "spells known" somehow. Depending on DM, that means "at all."

taltamir
2009-09-23, 01:02 PM
No he doesn't. A level 18 Sorc knows ONE 9th level spell. A wizard knows as many as he wants.
There is a big difference in versatility here.

The Sorcerers main (remaining) weakness is his low amont of spells known.
At level 20 he knows 3 9ths, 3 8ths, 3 7ths etc. That does, in fact, leave him with relatively little versatility. For instance, he might know Time Stop, Maw of Chaos and Effulgent Eppurtation, but he doesn't know Gate, Mind Rape, Shapechange, Stasis Clone, Disjunction, Reaving Dispel, Black Blade of Disaster, Foresight etc.
A Wizard can afford to know all these spells, including ones he only plans to use occasionally.

Noone is saying Sorcerers are weak, but they are much less versatile than Wizards and don't belong on the same tier.

thats spells known lag, not spell LEVEL lag. at level 17 a wizard can cast level9 spells, a sorc level 8...

the spells known lag is a different and realy problem, that was mentioned, that I Agree with. It is one of the sacrifices a sorcerer makes for his powers.

TheThan
2009-09-23, 01:34 PM
The problem I have with the “tier system” is that is it totally theoretical and assumes “maximum power”. In other words it assumes that a Dm is allowing anything to fly in his game. With this mindset, a wizard can win just about anything. But that not the whole story.

You see, a wizard’s power is purely dependant on the DM to allow the player to have access to everything he needs to be powerful. A wizard needs the DM to let him get those rods of meta-magic and the spellbook with every spell printed in it. Without a Dm who is happy to oblige the wizard, you will find he is not nearly as powerful.

Out of the box, a wizard isn’t as powerful as everyone makes him out to be. His unlimited spells known aspect is strongly dependent on how many spells the dungeon master throws at the wizard. A wizard is only entitled to 21 spells (not counting cantrips here). Everything else is dependant on what the Dm gives him, things like scrolls and spellbooks, other wizards and even spell research. Which means he’ short on spells compared to a sorcerer.
However that is to not say he’s bad, he is still very good, he just has to be a bit more careful on which spells to pick and which spells to prepare. He has two main advantages, he’s also going to have access to meta-magic feats, and he gets his spells a level earlier than the sorcerer.

Now a sorcerer gets more spells per day, and is entitled to 34 spells (not counted the 9 cantrips they can know) which is more than a wizard’s 21 spells. However he can’t use metamagic and he gets his spells one level later than the wizard, but he gets to cast his spells more times per day, which means he can outlast the wizard in straight up casting. He’s pretty good out of the box and does rely on DM pandering to be strong.

So out of the box, a wizard and sorcerer are pretty close to the same power. It’s when you throw in the variable of the Dm that wizards either gain or loose power.

Arbitrarity
2009-09-23, 01:35 PM
I think sorcerors sorta win at ludicrously high-end (not infinite) cheese levels. LA bought-off white-dragonspawn loredrake dragonwrought venerable desert kobolds with GDRoP, abusing limited wish with psychic reformation, are WAY ahead in caster levels, and qualify for cheesewrought instabold trickery. They do need to blow a feat on Rapid Metamagic, but they get Sorceror only spells (arcane spellsurge, Wings of Flurry, wings of cover, Arcane fusion and greater), and can still rearrange spells for a bit of XP.

However, at that point, there's very little difference between this level of cheese and abusing Candles, etc. I mean, who allows Eberron and Dark Sun specific books to be combined, lets you misuse Dragonwrought that badly, etc. If they allow that, they might as well allow Candles.

quick_comment
2009-09-23, 01:40 PM
You see, a wizard’s power is purely dependant on the DM to allow the player to have access to everything he needs to be powerful. A wizard needs the DM to let him get those rods of meta-magic and the spellbook with every spell printed in it. Without a Dm who is happy to oblige the wizard, you will find he is not nearly as powerful.

Not really. A wizard with solid fog and fly is already better than just about any core fighter.

taltamir
2009-09-23, 01:46 PM
The problem I have with the “tier system” is that is it totally theoretical and assumes “maximum power”. In other words it assumes that a Dm is allowing anything to fly in his game. With this mindset, a wizard can win just about anything. But that not the whole story.

You see, a wizard’s power is purely dependant on the DM to allow the player to have access to everything he needs to be powerful. A wizard needs the DM to let him get those rods of meta-magic and the spellbook with every spell printed in it. Without a Dm who is happy to oblige the wizard, you will find he is not nearly as powerful.

Out of the box, a wizard isn’t as powerful as everyone makes him out to be. His unlimited spells known aspect is strongly dependent on how many spells the dungeon master throws at the wizard. A wizard is only entitled to 21 spells (not counting cantrips here). Everything else is dependant on what the Dm gives him, things like scrolls and spellbooks, other wizards and even spell research. Which means he’ short on spells compared to a sorcerer.
However that is to not say he’s bad, he is still very good, he just has to be a bit more careful on which spells to pick and which spells to prepare. He has two main advantages, he’s also going to have access to meta-magic feats, and he gets his spells a level earlier than the sorcerer.

Now a sorcerer gets more spells per day, and is entitled to 34 spells (not counted the 9 cantrips they can know) which is more than a wizard’s 21 spells. However he can’t use metamagic and he gets his spells one level later than the wizard, but he gets to cast his spells more times per day, which means he can outlast the wizard in straight up casting. He’s pretty good out of the box and does rely on DM pandering to be strong.

So out of the box, a wizard and sorcerer are pretty close to the same power. It’s when you throw in the variable of the Dm that wizards either gain or loose power.

not counting cantrips, it is 41 + int mod at level 1.
3+ int mod at level 1, 2 per level afterwards.

As you say, it heavily depends on the DM obliging him... which realistically doesn't happen as often.

Arbitrarity
2009-09-23, 01:51 PM
Then of course, we have Elven Generalist (20 extra spells), Collegiate Wizard (40 extra spells) etc. Those are pretty reasonable, if the DM is being spell-stingy, though they are only available at character creation, so a "tricky" DM can avoid them.
But there comes a point where denying access to things becomes unreasonable and illogical. For me, that's when the wizard can go anywhere in the blink of an eye, play 20 questions about item and spell locations, etc. Of course, this sort of inquisition can be blocked by higher level wizards, but that feels excessively railroad and restrictive.

quick_comment
2009-09-23, 01:52 PM
If the DM wants to play that way, then wizard can planar bind genies and have them wish for scrolls

taltamir
2009-09-23, 01:55 PM
Then of course, we have Elven Generalist (20 extra spells), Collegiate Wizard (40 extra spells) etc. Those are pretty reasonable, if the DM is being spell-stingy, though they are only available at character creation, so a "tricky" DM can avoid them.
But there comes a point where denying access to things becomes unreasonable and illogical. For me, that's when the wizard can go anywhere in the blink of an eye, play 20 questions about item and spell locations, etc. Of course, this sort of inquisition can be blocked by higher level wizards, but that feels excessively railroad and restrictive.

which isn't as much of an issue with a sorcerer... because he gives up a "dm fiat" based ability (how many extra spells he get) for a mechanical advantage (cast spontaneously, and have more castings per day)


If the DM wants to play that way, then wizard can planar bind genies and have them wish for scrolls

Not only does wish explicitly tell the DM to screw the players, in the EXAMPLES given, they maliciously screw the player for making reasonable but not perfectly worded wishes, in completely unnecessary ways (it should have just given a lesser result)...

wish SHOULD have said "it either works, produces a lesser result, or fails".

Vangor
2009-09-23, 01:57 PM
You see, a wizard’s power is purely dependant on the DM to allow the player to have access to everything he needs to be powerful. A wizard needs the DM to let him get those rods of meta-magic and the spellbook with every spell printed in it. Without a Dm who is happy to oblige the wizard, you will find he is not nearly as powerful.

If the DM is not giving the Wizard an additional scroll or two a level, the spellbook of an enemy Wizard, and/or access to a merchant, the DM is purposefully trying to hinder. Scrolls, especially for higher levels, are quite a given in terms of treasure. To be Tier 1, a Wizard does not need Rods of Metamagic nor every spell.

I believe without additional scrolls a Wizard still gains slightly greater versatility standard, not to mention has scribe scroll which utterly wrecks a Sorcerer who, in the same campaign wouldn't possess scrolls himself, does possess access to a limited amount of scrolls.

taltamir
2009-09-23, 02:00 PM
If the DM is not giving the Wizard an additional scroll or two a level, the spellbook of an enemy Wizard, and/or access to a merchant, the DM is purposefully trying to hinder. Scrolls, especially for higher levels, are quite a given in terms of treasure. To be Tier 1, a Wizard does not need Rods of Metamagic nor every spell.

I believe without additional scrolls a Wizard still gains slightly greater versatility standard, not to mention has scribe scroll which utterly wrecks a Sorcerer who, in the same campaign wouldn't possess scrolls himself, does possess access to a limited amount of scrolls.

in that same campaign, the wizard only has scrolls of spells he own, often cast below his maximum level to save costs...
A sorcerer doesn't need them, he casts more often per day for free.

Paulus
2009-09-23, 02:08 PM
In my opinion Sorcerer's fit the concept I've always had for "Wizards" far better than Wizards do. In that they have Spontaneous casting. But then I think all magical classes should be spontaneous casters. I mean think about it, thematically, artistically, and fantastically, you see what? Wizards running around throwing spells they know at things. But do you ever see them cast more than say, ten to twelve spells? Comparable to D&D level anyways. That just arguable taste and flavor though, so I would prefer a mosh of the two honestly. A wizard with spontaneous casting, give him the Sorcerer spell progression, but all the wizards class features. THAT to ME is a Wizard, see:

It would make more sense to me that a wizard spends his considerable time and effort studying arcane power and mysteries of the universe to increase his own power and potential for various reasons. Yet without their spell book they loose ALL they have gained the very next morning. I can understand learning spells from a spell book, and even keeping a running tally of all the spells they know in a spell book, but spell book dependence is about as silly as wand or staff dependence. You shouldn't NEED items for your OWN personally trained power. A Fighter suffers the same fate, becoming only as good as their equipment, so too is it for the wizard, who (out of the box) relies on his Spell book, spell component pouch, and a plethora of resources. Scrolls, wands, rods, etc etc. Only a sorcerer or other spontaneous caster truly retains his hard fought power. And even then he is LIMITED by the very sheer fact he can only KNOW so many spells at all! Which to me is just good balance.

It forces you too look at spells thematically, flavor fully, instead of just combat number effects. For example a lawful good character wouldn't necessarily enjoy researching, learning and using Necromancy spells, so out goes enervation- one of the arguably best spells in the game. But Not many mention that at all, people get lost in the stat block vs. stat block. Which is really a product of the game because its the only topic we can really discuss and contend upon here. After all, no one will tell you how to roleplay, only advise you. Therefore you get comparisons of the classes and such which judge the entire class upon these stat block vs stat block explorations, completely overshadowing the flavor and 'character' of the character classes themselves. Which sadly leave most saying X is better than Y because of this effect or that spell or this mathematically proven fact. Leaving many to think, "Well I shouldn't play X because Y is so much better and if I don't play Y i won't have any fun because X isn't very good". Naturally this isn't the case as many will tell you to play what you want and it is just a game and such and so fourth. Or rather, they ASSUME you know this or someone will TELL you this.

So. Here I am telling you this. Wizards are fin, Sorcerer's are fine, Tiers are for numbers and high optimization games. And chances are, if you don't know much about Optimization you aren't playing in that kind of game, or if you are and are new, your other players can certainly cover your slack or fill you in -IF you wish to learn it. SO. I personally only play spontaneous casters. Haven't regretted it. Thus in finally answer, Wizard is higher tier than a Sorc because when playing judged upon teir's the numerical wizard just happens to numerically find himself higher than the numerical Sorcerer. That is the ONLY reason. Now, if you don't want to play either a Numerical Wizard or numerical Sorcerer (and by that I mean bowing to a great deal of cookie cutter-ing character conformity in that you must take x,y,z, spell to be effective at all or use 'a' item with 'b' feats and 'c' stats) then either class is perfectly fine for you and on the exact same tier.

but this is only your friendly reminder of it being a Game and have fun and such. Being loud as possible so that at least someone who thinks like I do and assumes as we all do is vocal about it.

The message brought to you by the feel good role playing association of gamers and groups for the emphasis on enjoyment over effectiveness.

quick_comment
2009-09-23, 02:10 PM
Not only does wish explicitly tell the DM to screw the players, in the EXAMPLES given, they maliciously screw the player for making reasonable but not perfectly worded wishes, in completely unnecessary ways (it should have just given a lesser result)...

wish SHOULD have said "it either works, produces a lesser result, or fails".

Wishing for magic items is a safe function of wish.

Ozymandias9
2009-09-23, 02:12 PM
Mathematically speaking, it depends on whether we're talking about cardinal numbers or ordinal numbers. If cardinal numbers, then for a particular size of infinity, infinity=infinity+1 (but infinity != 2^infinity).

If ordinal numbers, then for a particular ordinal infinity, infinity != infinity+1 (though infinity = 1+infinity)

Thank you, Mr. Cantor.


Then we're talking about Cantor's transfinite numbers rather than absolute infinity.

Arbitrarity
2009-09-23, 02:14 PM
which isn't as much of an issue with a sorcerer... because he gives up a "dm fiat" based ability (how many extra spells he get) for a mechanical advantage (cast spontaneously, and have more castings per day)


Um. No. You just missed the top half of that post. Do you think a wizard doesn't have pretty much every spell he needs with 10 spells/level, guaranteed?

At that point, your only "fiat" option is stealing spellbooks. Which, if not agreed on/for dramatic effect and purely temporary, is basically on par with killing the god of the cleric, stealing the fighter's gear and magically aging him to venerable, while polymorphing him into a kobold, etc. It's not a generally accepted choice as an arbitrary restriction. Also, it's quite often totally unrealistic.


Though I liked my wizard with his 8 redundant spellbooks, each protected quite thoroughly. One is Teleport objected to the Ethereal plane, starting location 5000 ft above the ground at an arbitrary location, and the magical aura covered with Nystul's magic aura, which is refreshed periodically. One is in a folded up portable hole, and sequestered, along with a second, visible copy. One is hidden in a Leomund's secret chest (refreshed periodically), with the focus being Shrink Itemed, sequestered, and hidden somewhere on his body. One is hidden deep underground with his Clone, both sequestered.

Etc. Etc. Etc. I went through a lot of sequester and a bit of Gentle Repose, mostly. Maybe a spell every 2 days. Not too bad a cost, actually, though the initial outlay in Secret Page took a long time.

Vangor
2009-09-23, 02:16 PM
in that same campaign, the wizard only has scrolls of spells he own, often cast below his maximum level to save costs...
A sorcerer doesn't need them, he casts more often per day for free.

On the first part, this is exactly what I was noting. His ability to scribe scrolls is still generally more powerful than a Sorcerer in a different campaign with what should be an honest access to additional scrolls. Does the Wizard want to expend all of his gold on scribing scrolls? No, but he can scribe scrolls of the equivalent level of those the Sorcerer can utilize, and unless we're further talking about separate campaigns with the DM tossing scrolls to the request of the Sorcerer, the Wizard probably has more useful scrolls.

Further, the Sorcerer receives an advantage of 1 additional spell cast per day of the highest level and 2 spells cast per day of all remaining levels, ignoring the slight delay in access to spells which is decidedly in favor on odd levels. This is not a small advantage by any means, of course, but this would be an odd coincidence if the Wizard always had to resort to scrolls before resting while the Sorcerer never did because we are talking about, in total, 20 more spells per day at level 20, and this two per spell level including cantrips; if level four or below spells are decisive in EL20s, you probably could've just stabbed the monster to death.

Signmaker
2009-09-23, 02:21 PM
If the DM is not giving the Wizard an additional scroll or two a level, the spellbook of an enemy Wizard, and/or access to a merchant, the DM is purposefully trying to hinder. Scrolls, especially for higher levels, are quite a given in terms of treasure. To be Tier 1, a Wizard does not need Rods of Metamagic nor every spell.

I believe without additional scrolls a Wizard still gains slightly greater versatility standard, not to mention has scribe scroll which utterly wrecks a Sorcerer who, in the same campaign wouldn't possess scrolls himself, does possess access to a limited amount of scrolls.

Response:


in that same campaign, the wizard only has scrolls of spells he own, often cast below his maximum level to save costs...
A sorcerer doesn't need them, he casts more often per day for free.

So what you're trying to say is, in a campaign in which the DM is specifically gimping the wizard by NOT providing even randomized scrolls, as per treasure encounter tables, in which the wizard has no access to a city with even the smallest cantrips and low-levels spells to stock up on, the sorcerer catches up to the wizard.

...I'd like to point out the obvious 'duh' in that scenario.



As to saving costs, the cost of a scroll is (Level x CL x 25) gp. To craft it? Divide by two. There is very little cost associated with even a scroll of token 3rd level spell (3 x 5 x 25 = 375/2 = 187.5 gp, 15 exp). So even in your stingy DM scenario, the wizard doesn't have to give up too much wealth to gain more castable spells.

Eldariel
2009-09-23, 02:26 PM
On the first part, this is exactly what I was noting. His ability to scribe scrolls is still generally more powerful than a Sorcerer in a different campaign with what should be an honest access to additional scrolls. Does the Wizard want to expend all of his gold on scribing scrolls? No, but he can scribe scrolls of the equivalent level of those the Sorcerer can utilize, and unless we're further talking about separate campaigns with the DM tossing scrolls to the request of the Sorcerer, the Wizard probably has more useful scrolls.

Further, the Sorcerer receives an advantage of 1 additional spell cast per day of the highest level and 2 spells cast per day of all remaining levels, ignoring the slight delay in access to spells which is decidedly in favor on odd levels. This is not a small advantage by any means, of course, but this would be an odd coincidence if the Wizard always had to resort to scrolls before resting while the Sorcerer never did because we are talking about, in total, 20 more spells per day at level 20, and this two per spell level including cantrips; if level four or below spells are decisive in EL20s, you probably could've just stabbed the monster to death.

Pst. You forgot to note specialization.

Kurald Galain
2009-09-23, 02:28 PM
So what you're trying to say is, in a campaign in which the DM is specifically gimping the wizard by NOT providing even randomized scrolls, as per treasure encounter tables, in which the wizard has no access to a city with even the smallest cantrips and low-levels spells to stock up on, the sorcerer catches up to the wizard.

...and then there's the Collegiate Wizard feat, and the Mage of the Arcane Order...

Godskook
2009-09-23, 02:37 PM
Then we're talking about Cantor's transfinite numbers rather than absolute infinity.

Pray tell, define absolute infinity for us, outside of Cantor's mathematical works.

quick_comment
2009-09-23, 02:38 PM
Pray tell, define absolute infinity for us, outside of Cantor's mathematical works.

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PointatInfinity.html

Vangor
2009-09-23, 02:38 PM
Pst. You forgot to note specialization.

I was simplifying. Specialization absolutely halves the additional spells per day the Sorcerer gains without any true loss to versatility, while the three other main options noted, Collegiate Wizard, Elven Substitution Generalist Wizardry, or Mage of the Arcane Order, shatter the supposed problem of a lack of scrolls.

Another_Poet
2009-09-23, 03:32 PM
question, is the sorc still worse if it is NOT held back by 1 level? I had DMs that played by that rule before. (although, I actually didn't ASK my current one, I am talking hypothetically).

In my opinion, this would significantly even the two out. the metamagic & spells known still make the wizard more versatile, but Sorc's with access to the same spell progression as Wiz's would make spontaneous casting highly worthwhile.

ap

TheThan
2009-09-23, 04:06 PM
not counting cantrips, it is 41 + int mod at level 1.
3+ int mod at level 1, 2 per level afterwards.

As you say, it heavily depends on the DM obliging him... which realistically doesn't happen as often.

OK so I stand corrected, I miss-read the spellbook section. But the rest of the post still stands.

Signmaker
2009-09-23, 04:32 PM
...and then there's the Collegiate Wizard feat, and the Mage of the Arcane Order...

More or less, yup.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-23, 04:46 PM
A Focused Specialist Shadowcraft Mage has the same spells-per-day as a sorcerer and can pretty much spontaneously cast any Evocation, Conjuration (Creation) or Conjuration (Summoning) spell on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list without even needing to know it.

But that is a pretty specialised build and requires four five feats to work optimally. >.>

taltamir
2009-09-23, 06:09 PM
On the first part, this is exactly what I was noting. His ability to scribe scrolls is still generally more powerful than a Sorcerer in a different campaign with what should be an honest access to additional scrolls. Does the Wizard want to expend all of his gold on scribing scrolls? No, but he can scribe scrolls of the equivalent level of those the Sorcerer can utilize, and unless we're further talking about separate campaigns with the DM tossing scrolls to the request of the Sorcerer, the Wizard probably has more useful scrolls..

But the wizard can ONLY scribe scrolls of spells he already know. Or do you mean the CL issue?
In both cases the wizard is using a lot of money to compensate for what the sorc can do...

And your gold gain also really makes a difference here.. a scroll is 25 x CL x Spell Level.
So 25gp per scroll at wizard level 1... at level 3 you are now at 6x (CL3, SL2), at CL 11 it is 6 x 11 x 25 = 1650gp per scroll... the cost is constantly rising, it is never "cheap" unless you are drowning in gold.

Keep in mind this isn't a "winning" thing. I totally agree that under many conditions the wizard has a distinct advantage. Just saying it is not ALWAYS better. because the wizards power depends more on external factors... aka:
1. access to looted scrolls/spellbooks
2. access to buying spellbooks / scrolls
3. access to gold.

With a decent amount of gold and access a wizard can just scribe enough scrolls of various kinds to make the sorcerer completely useless...

The following differences are class characteristics:
1. Casting progression
2. Metamagic differences
3. Spontanous / prepared
4. Spells gained / known per level
5. Spells cast per day.

But wealth, magic item, scrolls, magic books, and basically loot in general can greatly affect the balance of power between a wizard and sorcerer, the more loot, the better off the wizard comparatively.

axraelshelm
2009-09-23, 06:42 PM
Wizards use their spells like rogues use their equipment, prepared for the job at hand. You can be a blaster aswell as buffer, battlefield control, debuffer you name it. Hell most of my wizards 3rd levels are fireballs and 1 dispell magic most of the time but it doesn't mean they have to be those all the time.
I'm playing a rogue at the moment and I'm finding him alot more challeging than a wizard because things aren't instant you realy need to set things up to make the best out of a situation.
I've never played a sorcerer before but I will in a years time me and another player are going to swap our favorite classes and see how it goes.

Anyway hope this was informative.

taltamir
2009-09-23, 07:02 PM
Wizards use their spells like rogues use their equipment, prepared for the job at hand.

You know, this reminds me, I keep on hearing about that (because it is in the class description) but it NEVER materializes... I am considering starting a tangent thread about this issue...

How exactly does a wizard prepare "for the job ahead"? does he cast scry and have the DM tell him "you see that today you will be fighting goblins, and a troll, prepare acid spells"

I mean, it makes no sense... Unless you are the aggressor (which is rarely the case in DnD), you are NOT preparing for the job ahead, you are prepared for some "general encounters"... You get versatile spells that can be used against anything... They say "a plan never survives first contact", it is so true, quite often I find my wizard to have no spell fitting a specific enemy that came up as a surprise... a sorcerer has access to all his spells, always. And due to having more them... well the enemy might be immune to my usual tactics, so lets just buff.

PS. what rogue equipment?

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-23, 07:05 PM
Wizards can see the future with the right spells. So, yes, you do get the option of the DM telling you "You'll be fighting a troll and a white dragon today - bring fire".

tyckspoon
2009-09-23, 07:13 PM
I mean, it makes no sense... Unless you are the aggressor (which is rarely the case in DnD), you are NOT preparing for the job ahead, you are prepared for some "general encounters"... You get versatile spells that can be used against anything... They say "a plan never survives first contact", it is so true, quite often I find my wizard to have no spell fitting a specific enemy that came up as a surprise... a sorcerer has access to all his spells, always. And due to having more them... well the enemy might be immune to my usual tactics, so lets just buff.


I'd say you're actually *usually* the aggressor; D&D is built around the concept of the party taking the active role in chasing down adventure. The particular goals you're pursuing will determine your general loadout. You're chasing down an Evil Necromancer, so you're generally expecting undead; you take the Mind-Affecting spells out of your prep, and he's a spellcaster, so you load a few more Dispels and defensive stuff than you usually would. Going dragon-hunting? More Dispels, some stuff to counter Spell Resistance, some spells that help control the mobility of really big critters. Probable golems? Avoid SR: Yes. That's the kind of general prep you should be doing.

For specific situations, the major tool is Contact Other Plane. You can do something like ask 'Will I have to fight any (Elementals/Fey/Undead/Outsiders/etc) in the coming week?' If the answer to any of that is yes, you proceed to play 20 Questions to figure out what exactly you'll fight and if any of it is likely to be a real problem.

taltamir
2009-09-23, 07:18 PM
Wizards can see the future with the right spells. So, yes, you do get the option of the DM telling you "You'll be fighting a troll and a white dragon today - bring fire".

never ever met a DM who would let me do that.
I'd have better luck squeezing unlimited wishes from an efreet. EDIT: aka, getting a DM to allow me infinite wishes from an efreet.
This is something that exists only in the class description and the mind of the person who wrote that class description...

taltamir
2009-09-23, 07:21 PM
I'd say you're actually *usually* the aggressor; D&D is built around the concept of the party taking the active role in chasing down adventure. The particular goals you're pursuing will determine your general loadout. You're chasing down an Evil Necromancer, so you're generally expecting undead; you take the Mind-Affecting spells out of your prep, and he's a spellcaster, so you load a few more Dispels and defensive stuff than you usually would. Going dragon-hunting? More Dispels, some stuff to counter Spell Resistance, some spells that help control the mobility of really big critters. Probable golems? Avoid SR: Yes. That's the kind of general prep you should be doing.

For specific situations, the major tool is Contact Other Plane. You can do something like ask 'Will I have to fight any (Elementals/Fey/Undead/Outsiders/etc) in the coming week?' If the answer to any of that is yes, you proceed to play 20 Questions to figure out what exactly you'll fight and if any of it is likely to be a real problem.

maybe I am not playing with enough psycho killers who decide to go murder a sentient being and take their stuff because they look different...

But even if that is the case, predicting what you will find is tough to say the least. Sure, you can predict spells needed AGAINST a lich or a dragon you are chasing, but what about its minions? where will you encounter it? will it fight back? ambush you?

Also, my "characters" typically have not read the MM.

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-23, 07:21 PM
squeezing unlimited wishes from an efreet.
That's easily enough done. Though you'd set up a chain of efreet/wishes (but they're still unlimited).

taltamir
2009-09-23, 07:22 PM
That's easily enough done. Though you'd set up a chain of efreet/wishes (but they're still unlimited).

you actually convinced a DM to allow that?

olentu
2009-09-23, 07:26 PM
never ever met a DM who would let me do that.
I'd have better luck squeezing unlimited wishes from an efreet. EDIT: aka, getting a DM to allow me infinite wishes from an efreet.
This is something that exists only in the class description and the mind of the person who wrote that class description...

It should probably be spell description rather then class description.

tyckspoon
2009-09-23, 07:34 PM
But even if that is the case, predicting what you will find is tough to say the least. Sure, you can predict spells needed AGAINST a lich or a dragon you are chasing, but what about its minions? where will you encounter it? will it fight back? ambush you?

Also, my "characters" typically have not read the MM.

Don't have to read the MM, that's what Knowledges are for. Between yourself (Planes, Arcana, possibly Nature, Dungeoneering) and your party Divine caster (Religion, Planes again) you should know about most or all of the really troublesome monster types.

As for cheap Wishes- it seriously doesn't break the game, if you make some common-sense rulings about what you can generate with Wish. In particular, you have to re-instate a limit on the value of a magic item that can be Wished. There was one in 3.0, and nobody knows why it got taken out of the spell for 3.5. Without the ability to Wish for Epic magic items, what remains is a matter of adjusting a few game preconceptions (for example, since you can Wish up a limitless amount of wealth in gold, you need to figure out a non-Wishable currency for people to trade in when they want to acquire really serious magic stuff. Which also makes all the other limitless-wealth tricks a Wizard can do innocuous, as none of them will generate this Actually Valuable currency.) Once that's taken care of, your characters all get +5 Inherent to whatever stats they want. Which is.. really easy to deal with. It just makes the numbers bigger in a controlled and limited fashion. Use monsters a CR or two higher and be done with it.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-23, 08:44 PM
never ever met a DM who would let me do that.


You've never met a DM who lets divination spells do what they're designed to do?

You must play with some pretty crappy DMs.

Vangor
2009-09-23, 09:22 PM
But the wizard can ONLY scribe scrolls of spells he already know. Or do you mean the CL issue?

I was speaking on spell and caster level being equivalent, but I believe you see the Wizard scribing scrolls he knows as somehow a negative in this discussion. The Sorcerer cannot scribe scrolls, and the Sorcerer knows fewer spells. Sorcerers only possess scrolls acquired, thus we need to assume both receive the same scrolls and spellbooks (ignoring Sorcerers do not particularly use spellbooks, those should still be located). The Wizard being able to scribe scrolls is a significant advantage for many reasons due to this, and the advantage simply increases as both level.

For instance, the plethora of spells to be cast by the Wizard increases significantly as spells become relatively less expensive and simpler to access, thus we aren't talking about a static increase to spells known as with the Sorcerer.


In both cases the wizard is using a lot of money to compensate for what the sorc can do...

Not exactly, for the second reason the advantage continues to increase as both level. Scrolls are an effective reserve of spell power, whereas additional spells per day are not. Any spells not used are effectively wasted by both Wizards and Sorcerers. However, any scrolls not used are simply kept until needed.

Further, what the Sorcerer can do is, at the greatest I believe, cast 20 additional spells per day as I stated, though this number wildly fluctuates between odd and even levels. Others noted I did not include Specialization which is practically a given, halving this to 10 additional spells per day. To cast this amount of spells, the Wizard or Sorcerer will need an Intelligence or Charisma respectively of 19, which translates to an additional 1 spell slot of 1st-4th. This score, however, is unlikely for levels 18-20 which we are speaking of, while anywhere between 20-24 is quite plausible without LA; I will use 22 which is a 17 starting. Remember, we will not be factoring in the probable Headband of Intellect, Tome of Understanding, or anything else.

Generally, a Wizard of 22 Intelligence at level 20 should be able to cast 58 spells per day. The equivalent Charisma for a level 20 Sorcerer, therefore, casts 68 spells per day. The Wizard has 85% of the spell casts per day of a Sorcerer. Unless we are suggesting every day requires 15% more spells per day, this is probably not as relevant a difference.


Just saying it is not ALWAYS better.

Yeah. I don't mean to be suggesting you always want the Wizard, but considering the Wizard can, essentially, fulfill any role a specific Sorcerer cannot while fulfilling those they can and possessing a reserve of spells, this is why I am defending the Wizard as more powerful. Simply, the comparability of Sorcerers begins to evaporate as levels increase due to increase in wealth, versatility, and statistics.

taltamir
2009-09-23, 09:33 PM
You've never met a DM who lets divination spells do what they're designed to do?

You must play with some pretty crappy DMs.

it is a matter of practically... the DM cannot foresee the future. He does not know what the players will do, unless the game is 100% railroaded into a specific set of encounters, the DM has no way of telling the future to you.
Even then there are various issues with it. Any spell that requires your DM to PREDICT THE FUTURE is going to be a problem for a non oracular DM.

We are better off with a spell that required the player to perform complicated math on a timer to determine damage...

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-23, 09:34 PM
Just vent some natural gas under his nose. Worked for the Greeks...

taltamir
2009-09-23, 09:35 PM
Yeah. I don't mean to be suggesting you always want the Wizard, but considering the Wizard can, essentially, fulfill any role a specific Sorcerer cannot while fulfilling those they can and possessing a reserve of spells, this is why I am defending the Wizard as more powerful. Simply, the comparability of Sorcerers begins to evaporate as levels increase due to increase in wealth, versatility, and statistics.

Ah, I see now. Yes, usually the wizard is the better choice. But under certain conditions it isn't. Certainly all powers are relative and dependent on the situation and the world.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-23, 09:40 PM
You know, this reminds me, I keep on hearing about that (because it is in the class description) but it NEVER materializes... I am considering starting a tangent thread about this issue...

How exactly does a wizard prepare "for the job ahead"? does he cast scry and have the DM tell him "you see that today you will be fighting goblins, and a troll, prepare acid spells"

I mean, it makes no sense... Unless you are the aggressor (which is rarely the case in DnD), you are NOT preparing for the job ahead, you are prepared for some "general encounters"... You get versatile spells that can be used against anything... They say "a plan never survives first contact", it is so true, quite often I find my wizard to have no spell fitting a specific enemy that came up as a surprise... a sorcerer has access to all his spells, always. And due to having more them... well the enemy might be immune to my usual tactics, so lets just buff.

PS. what rogue equipment?

Rarely the aggressor? What do you think dungeon crawling is? I'll give you a hint, it's not defense. It's also not terribly uncommon to have at least a rough idea of the day's objectives beforehand, or to face the same enemy or group of enemies repeatedly. Unless it's a one-off game, you should have *some* idea of what's likely to happen.

And of course, the variety of spells wizards can have prepared at one time is just fine compared to the spells a sorcerer knows. Save for cantrips and various feats/optimization, the sorc will only know 5 spells per level, tops. This, coincidentally, is the number of spells prepared by a specialist wizard in each level. That's before even counting in bonus spells.

No, the sorcerer happens to have the edge when it turns out that at level 20, you really need to cast magic missile twenty times in a row. Seems like a mildly improbable situation compared to the alternative.


But hey, lets compare pure spell power of a wizzie vs a sorc, shall we? We'll do a specialist wizard because he still has vastly more options than the sorc does. He gets a mere one spell less of each level than the sorc. But wait...the wizard gets spells a level earlier. On those levels, the difference in power is less.

Now, we get into the free metamagic feats available. Even if a sorc chooses to get these, the casting time issue will cause him grief...but the wizard gets them for free. These increase the power of the wizards spells as well.

And, if you ever do have a DM that's utterly ridiculous about following the standardized rules regarding spell learning(you can just copy off scrolls...if you live in a world without scrolls, it's not terribly close to standard D&D), you can still double your spells per level with a single feat, Collegiate Wizard IIRC. Or you can be a domain wizard(which still nets you the usual power of specialization, btw) for an extra spell known per level. No real downside, there. As a side bonus, if you have two sorcs, they don't really gain much from each other, but if you have multiple wizards, they get to copy off each others spellbooks.

Nope, learning spells is not terribly hard in any vaguely standard game of D&D. The cost factor isn't bad, and there should be a multitude of opportunities.

taltamir
2009-09-23, 09:48 PM
i really should have said are rarely "assassins" instead of aggressor. And also specify that even if you are, you are not automatically privy to all the enemies defenses...

The specialist wizard is actually a pretty good idea. I haven't considered it and it is certainly a big boon to the wizard.

And I have repeatedly said that the wizard has an advantage in metamagic.what does that have to do with being PREPARED for things in advance?

I learned a lot here, I have refined my knowledge and opinions. The thing I am trying to figure our right now, and thus debate about, is the claim in the PHB that wizards "prepare for specific encounters" better. by saying that realistically, you don't know what you need. Even if you THINK you know, there are surprises.

Milskidasith
2009-09-23, 09:50 PM
Foresight.

That is why Wizards always no what to prepare.

Genesis:

That is how, in the event Foresight fails, they can instantly get the 15 minutes it takes to prepare any spells they aren't using for their daily buffing.

Contingent Celerity/Time Stop: That is how, in the event Foresight fails and you don't have Genesis time to prepare spells for the encounter, you can still escape.

Just looking at those, those three defenses would take all of the sorcerers ninth level spell slots.... while the Wizard is free to also Wish, Gate, and generally break the laws of reality in far more ways.

Zeful
2009-09-23, 10:00 PM
Foresight.

That is why Wizards always no what to prepare.

Foresight is limited to a nebulous "sixth sense" and is not very reliable as useful information goes.

Soras Teva Gee
2009-09-23, 10:03 PM
You've never met a DM who lets divination spells do what they're designed to do?

You must play with some pretty crappy DMs.

Looking at just the core list for Wiz/Sor I do not find the "tell me what I'm fighting tommorrowy" spell or much of any divination involving the future. Contact Other Plane I can see some clever questions getting moderate results, but the one word answer requirement allows a considerable amount of leeway to the DM.

Milskidasith
2009-09-23, 10:04 PM
Foresight is limited to a nebulous "sixth sense" and is not very reliable as useful information goes.

Foresight allows you to know the best course of action to defend yourself. Plus, acting in the suprise rounds allows for celerity, time stop, and going to your demiplane to prepare spells.

Vangor
2009-09-23, 10:07 PM
The thing I am trying to figure our right now, and thus debate about, is the claim in the PHB that wizards "prepare for specific encounters" better.

I am not aware where this line comes from which you appear to be quoting, but you may want to emphasize "specific" as you read the line. Those who play Wizards should be able to amass enough knowledge to prepare spells for a wide variety of encounters, prepare contingencies as necessary, prepare escape if required, etc., which is significant preparation a Sorcerer usually does not have as much of by the fact of fewer spell options. However, since we are talking about "specific encounters", we assume the Wizard knows and therefore can destroy whatever encounter this is.

quick_comment
2009-09-23, 10:13 PM
Looking at just the core list for Wiz/Sor I do not find the "tell me what I'm fighting tommorrowy" spell or much of any divination involving the future. Contact Other Plane I can see some clever questions getting moderate results, but the one word answer requirement allows a considerable amount of leeway to the DM.

Not really.

"What is the sum of the numbers of the following questions to which the answer is yes?
1 Question 1
2 Question 2
4 Question 3
8 Question 4
....
"

Answer: Something

Now you take the answer, convert to binary, and tada!

tyckspoon
2009-09-23, 10:14 PM
Looking at just the core list for Wiz/Sor I do not find the "tell me what I'm fighting tommorrowy" spell or much of any divination involving the future. Contact Other Plane I can see some clever questions getting moderate results, but the one word answer requirement allows a considerable amount of leeway to the DM.

There isn't really a general "tell me what I'm fighting tomorrow" spell; Contact Other Plane can do it, but it's not applied in most games because it's obnoxious as hell and would take forever to play it out. That particular use of it is more a construct of the "one Wizard fights the world" kinds of challenges that sometimes pop up, where the Wizard has to do that in order to survive a world where every merchant is an Assassin studying him for a Death Attack *all the time* and every customer is another spellcaster throwing Dispels to try and remove his immunity to [Death] effects. So no, your practical Wizards probably won't know every single encounter they'll face of every single day; that's why they have a general spell prep loadout, with some modifications for the general kind of opponent they expect to face. It works for pretty much everything.

But when there *is* one specific encounter to be prepped for? On that day when you're going to finally hunt down the Great Mad Dragon or the Evil Warlord? Contact Other Plane helps you figure out everything you need to know about him. Does he have any Contingent effects? Well, now you know about them and how to deal with them. What about non-obvious abilities? Is that apparent Fighter warlord actually a Psychic Warrior or a Tome of Battle class? That could have been a nasty surprise, but now you know about it, and better, you can tailor your spells for it. That's the kind of specific preparation a Wizard can do that a Sorcerer, generally speaking, cannot.

taltamir
2009-09-23, 10:30 PM
There isn't really a general "tell me what I'm fighting tomorrow" spell; Contact Other Plane can do it, but it's not applied in most games because it's obnoxious as hell and would take forever to play it out. That particular use of it is more a construct of the "one Wizard fights the world" kinds of challenges that sometimes pop up, where the Wizard has to do that in order to survive a world where every merchant is an Assassin studying him for a Death Attack *all the time* and every customer is another spellcaster throwing Dispels to try and remove his immunity to [Death] effects. So no, your practical Wizards probably won't know every single encounter they'll face of every single day; that's why they have a general spell prep loadout, with some modifications for the general kind of opponent they expect to face. It works for pretty much everything.
Which is why that "benefit" of the wizard does not exist. He picks general spells like everyone else.


But when there *is* one specific encounter to be prepped for? On that day when you're going to finally hunt down the Great Mad Dragon or the Evil Warlord? Contact Other Plane helps you figure out everything you need to know about him. Does he have any Contingent effects? Well, now you know about them and how to deal with them. What about non-obvious abilities? Is that apparent Fighter warlord actually a Psychic Warrior or a Tome of Battle class? That could have been a nasty surprise, but now you know about it, and better, you can tailor your spells for it. That's the kind of specific preparation a Wizard can do that a Sorcerer, generally speaking, cannot.

Which is where the sorcerer can prepare by getting wands, scrolls, etc.

Milskidasith
2009-09-23, 10:36 PM
Which is why that "benefit" of the wizard does not exist. He picks general spells like everyone else.



Which is where the sorcerer can prepare by getting wands, scrolls, etc.

Except that the has more spells known... even if a sorcerer knows what he's fighting, he can't change his spells known (short of bringing a psion in and paying a hefty EXP penalty). As for wands and such... do you know how expensive that will be? Not that wizards and sorcs are the magic item dependant types, but there are a lot of spells.

Also, contingent Celerity + Planeshift to your genesis demiplane for repreparing spells at the start of every encounter. Fun for the whole family! (of wizards)

tyckspoon
2009-09-23, 10:41 PM
Sure, the Sorcerer can hoard wands and scrolls if he likes, on the chance that the ones he happened to pick are the spells he needs right now. He can also hope that said wands and scrolls manage to have a significant enough effect when he uses them, as they are always cast at minimum casting stat and usually at minimum caster level. And he can hope he doesn't need those particular spells more than once, if he has them as a scroll (alternately, he can hope he needs them *lots of times* to make the investment of a wand worthwhile.. but if he's going to use 50 charges of a wand, that one was probably worth taking as a spell known instead.) Or he can invest more and more wealth in acquiring multiple high CL copies of spells.. but at this point it really kinda screams "I should have been a Wizard!"

Seriously, there is a very significant difference. The sorcerer expends his cash to get the weakest possible version of a spell, which works fine for a lot of utility but leaves much to be desired in combat. The Wizard pays once and gets the spell known, which lets him use it at full strength whenever he wants to prep it forever.

Kylarra
2009-09-23, 10:42 PM
Which is where the sorcerer can prepare by getting wands, scrolls, etc.I'm not sure why the sorcerer is suddenly allowed magic items to compensate when apparently the wizard's scribe scroll is useless etc.

Note that the wizard can compensate better than the sorcerer as one utility scroll can be scribed into the book and then used to create a wand, whereas that same scroll for the sorcerer gets used... once.

Vangor
2009-09-23, 10:42 PM
Which is why that "benefit" of the wizard does not exist. He picks general spells like everyone else.

Except if you are adventuring you should possess a rudimentary concept of what types of encounters you could potentially face, a nebulous idea of the villainy or good-doers who await, and utility spells which are useful. The breadth of potential spells means any knowledge shapes the choice of spells while Sorcerers do not possess this luxury. This is what we mean by planning, actually. Certainly this may not exist in the opening of a campaign, but you can gather a smattering of knowledge in preparation, and a smattering more between each rest.

Further, there exists more potential circumstances than the Sorcerer is likely to have spells for, whereas the Wizard possesses the distinct advantage of a greater variety of spells probably with enough slots to fulfill those. Need a spell for this encounter? The Wizard likely has one or two. When I say "for this encounter", I don't mean simply possibly effective but wonderfully effective, which the Sorcerer probably doesn't hold.

Hence the power of versatility.


Which is where the sorcerer can prepare by getting wands, scrolls, etc.

Which...the Wizard cannot?

I mean, this is the reason the Wizard is a higher tier. Everything a Sorcerer can do a Wizard can do. However, everything a Wizard can do a Sorcerer cannot always do.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-23, 10:43 PM
Except that the has more spells known... even if a sorcerer knows what he's fighting, he can't change his spells known (short of bringing a psion in and paying a hefty EXP penalty).

Limited Wish cuts out the middle man. It would cost you 1300 gp to reformat everything from level 20 downwards - not that much.

taltamir
2009-09-23, 10:44 PM
Except that the has more spells known... even if a sorcerer knows what he's fighting, he can't change his spells known (short of bringing a psion in and paying a hefty EXP penalty). As for wands and such... do you know how expensive that will be? Not that wizards and sorcs are the magic item dependant types, but there are a lot of spells.

Also, contingent Celerity + Planeshift to your genesis demiplane for repreparing spells at the start of every encounter. Fun for the whole family! (of wizards)

by DEFINITION we are talking about fringe cases where your usual spells are not useful. if you picked your spells wisely, this should almost never be an issue.

Do you have an example of a creature that is immune to anything a well planned sorcerer has, but a wizard can get some obscure spell to beat?

taltamir
2009-09-23, 10:45 PM
Sure, the Sorcerer can hoard wands and scrolls if he likes, on the chance that the ones he happened to pick are the spells he needs right now. He can also hope that said wands and scrolls manage to have a significant enough effect when he uses them, as they are always cast at minimum casting stat and usually at minimum caster level. And he can hope he doesn't need those particular spells more than once, if he has them as a scroll (alternately, he can hope he needs them *lots of times* to make the investment of a wand worthwhile.. but if he's going to use 50 charges of a wand, that one was probably worth taking as a spell known instead.) Or he can invest more and more wealth in acquiring multiple high CL copies of spells.. but at this point it really kinda screams "I should have been a Wizard!"

Seriously, there is a very significant difference. The sorcerer expends his cash to get the weakest possible version of a spell, which works fine for a lot of utility but leaves much to be desired in combat. The Wizard pays once and gets the spell known, which lets him use it at full strength whenever he wants to prep it forever.

No, never. I am saying that if you are fighting a specific creature that is somehow immune to your NORMAL spells... then a wizard can go research a custom spell that is normally useless but works on that creature. And your sorcerer gets scrolls / wands for this one encounter.
Normally they both use generic spells.


I'm not sure why the sorcerer is suddenly allowed magic items to compensate when apparently the wizard's scribe scroll is useless etc.

Note that the wizard can compensate better than the sorcerer as one utility scroll can be scribed into the book and then used to create a wand, whereas that same scroll for the sorcerer gets used... once.

because the situation discussed in that particular post is different than the situations discussed before. The wizard ALSO needs scrolls and wands while we are at it, because he is likely not gonna have the "one obscure spell" that said enemy is not immune to.

Milskidasith
2009-09-23, 10:46 PM
by DEFINITION we are talking about fringe cases where your usual spells are not useful. if you picked your spells wisely, this should almost never be an issue.

Do you have an example of a creature that is immune to anything a well planned sorcerer has, but a wizard can get some obscure spell to beat?

What's your definition of well planned, exactly? Anything I can roll up, you can counter by taking some of your spells known for that. You need to have the sorcerer first to see what it can and can't do, not throw a monster and see if a sorcerer you build just for that monster can do things.

But... I'll just say these five spells: Gate, Timestop, Wish, Foresight, Genesis. Sorcerers pick three, wizards get all of them and more! With all of them... Wizards can do anything as perfectly as possible, while sorcerers can "only" do things incredibly well.

EDIT: Those aren't even all the great 9th level spells... there's still mindrape, astral projection, shapechange, etc. Sorcs still only get three.

taltamir
2009-09-23, 10:52 PM
ok, a challenge.
Lets ignore the limited wish psychic reformation here...

Give me a monster that, one day a wizard or a sorc decides to slay.
They know ahead of time what the monster is. And what it is weak against and immune against.

Then tell me which spells ARE useful against it. Those spells should be spells that the:
1. Sorcerer PROBABLY doesn't have. (aka, they are not highly versatile)
2. Wizard PROBABLY DOES have in his spellbook already.

Because if they need to go FIND a spell, well... might as well get a wand while at it.

Milskidasith
2009-09-23, 10:54 PM
Fair enough, then.

The challenge is to slay an optimized level 17 wizard with full buffs running. You're at level 20.

Spells that would be useful: Entirely dependant on what the wizard does.
Spells the sorcerer probably wouldn't have: Whatever spells the Wizard divined you don't have known.

As I said, the difference between tier 1 and 2 isn't that sorcs suck... it's that wizards are perfect and have 200 different nukes for every situation, while sorcs have a few nukes that are pretty good in most cases and still better than tier 3 or less classes.

Kylarra
2009-09-23, 10:55 PM
Fair enough, then.

The challenge is to slay an optimized level 17 wizard with full buffs running. You're at level 20.Schrodinger's wizard isn't very nice to pull. Particularly since there's so many flavors of "optimized".

Milskidasith
2009-09-23, 10:57 PM
Schrodinger's wizard isn't very nice to pull. Particularly since there's so many flavors of "optimized".

But that's the point (that I edited in): The Wizard or another Tier 1 class is the only thing that can actually prove that a Tier 2 class is not as good as a Tier 1 class, because all the standard monsters are so far below being challenging for both of them it isn't funny. Basically, wizards never lose, sorcerers never die.

It's even more appropriate because, by proving that the sorcerer can't beat a lower level wizard while a wizard can, he loses to a wizard in terms of what he can beat... and also gets beaten by a wizard in a straight up fight.

Kylarra
2009-09-23, 10:58 PM
But that's the point (that I edited in): The Wizard or another Tier 1 class is the only thing that can actually prove that a Tier 2 class is not as good as a Tier 1 class, because all the standard monsters are so far below being challenging for both of them it isn't funny. Basically, wizards never lose, sorcerers never die.Yeah I know. I was going to comment that the test itself wasn't a very good one, but then you made your reply first. >>

Milskidasith
2009-09-23, 11:00 PM
Yeah I know. I was going to comment that the test wasn't a very good one, but then you made your comment first. >>

Edited again... >_<

Anyway, yeah, it normally wouldn't be a good test... but both of them are great classes, and we are so far into theory that proving a wizard beats a sorcerer has to be done with a wizard, not with a standard monster (besides maybe OP caster monsters like solars: Holy Word at CL = your HD +10 or more = hope you are immune to deafness, blindness, stunning and death).

quillbreaker
2009-09-23, 11:00 PM
Foresight allows you to know the best course of action to defend yourself. Plus, acting in the suprise rounds allows for celerity, time stop, and going to your demiplane to prepare spells.

Quick survey - if you're a DM and you let a player do this, please sound off.

taltamir
2009-09-23, 11:01 PM
Fair enough, then.

The challenge is to slay an optimized level 17 wizard with full buffs running. You're at level 20.

Spells that would be useful: Entirely dependant on what the wizard does.
Spells the sorcerer probably wouldn't have: Whatever spells the Wizard divined you don't have known.

As I said, the difference between tier 1 and 2 isn't that sorcs suck... it's that wizards are perfect and have 200 different nukes for every situation, while sorcs have a few nukes that are pretty good in most cases and still better than tier 3 or less classes.

1. I see only max level casters count now eh?
2. Said wizard happens to be crazy prepared and know everything about you eh?
3. Said wizard just happens to have in his spellbook every spell needed to counter every spell your sorcerer knows... without need to acquire new spells? (because a sorc can spend the time that the wizard went acquiring those acquiring his own countermeasures, granted for more money).

So what does that wizard have that stops timestop + disjunction + spam damage?

A monster is actually a more problematic opponent, because if that is the case neither of you have time to "prepare spells" so its just "what you know",and as a sorc you might just have a hole in your knowledge.

Milskidasith
2009-09-23, 11:01 PM
Quick survey - if you're a DM and you let a player do this, please sound off.

This is theory, not play. Even ignoring the whole "best course of action" thing, you act in the suprise round (for a ninth level spell) and get celerity. Even without genesis, you can still prevent your death.

taltamir
2009-09-23, 11:03 PM
This is theory, not play. Even ignoring the whole "best course of action" thing, you act in the suprise round (for a ninth level spell) and get celerity. Even without genesis, you can still prevent your death.

um, no, this is theory ABOUT play.
If every DM ever (TM) doesn't do it, then this is not really applicable.
Otherwise the best class is not a wizard, it is pun pun.

Milskidasith
2009-09-23, 11:05 PM
1. I see only max level casters count now eh?

Yes, I stated that. Tier 1 and 2 are both crazy optimized in theory; you need something tier 1 to prove tier 1's inherent superiority.


2. Said wizard happens to be crazy prepared and know everything about you eh?

Yes, we are in theory, so wizards are always crazy prepared, and you know everything about the wizard, so him knowing about you is only putting you on equal terms.


3. Said wizard just happens to have in his spellbook every spell needed to counter every spell your sorcerer knows... without need to acquire new spells? (because a sorc can spend the time that the wizard went acquiring those acquiring his own countermeasures, granted for more money).

Because wizards get spells for a lot cheaper and have more reasonable access to divinations, and of course we are assuming equilateral total knowledge of the subject, so you do know all of his spellbooks, contingencies, etc.


So what does that wizard have that stops timestop + disjunction + spam damage?

Foresight, Contingency, Celerity, chain gating in reinforcements, wishing away the last round and teleporting away from you before you get there, etc, etc. And there are two of your 9th level spells right there, so I hope the third is a doozy.

EDIT: No, it is not about play. This is about tiers. Tiers are theory based on what a class can do when really optimized. Limiting wizards in one breath, while giving sorcerers whatever they want in the next, and then claiming using theory to boost wizards is unfair, isn't making a good argument, it's changing the terms. In theory, a wizard beats a sorcerer handily by RAW.

Plus, Pun Pun wouldn't affect the tiers because every class can become a Pun Pun.

Zeful
2009-09-23, 11:07 PM
Quick survey - if you're a DM and you let a player do this, please sound off.

I wouldn't but then I'm the guy that thinks Disjunction is a perfectly valid tactic. I also wouldn't allow Celerity (any version), Genesis, and 90% of everything outside of core related to Clerics, Druids, Wizards, and the other tier 1 classes I may have missed under any circumstances.

taltamir
2009-09-23, 11:11 PM
I wouldn't but then I'm the guy that thinks Disjunction is a perfectly valid tactic. I also wouldn't allow Celerity (any version), Genesis, and 90% of everything outside of core related to Clerics, Druids, Wizards, and the other tier 1 classes I may have missed under any circumstances.

pretty every DM I know follows those exact same rules... on occasion some different opinions on disjunctions.


Yes, we are in theory, so wizards are always crazy prepared, and you know everything about the wizard, so him knowing about you is only putting you on equal terms.
And here is our major disconnect. I am not talking about "in theory", I am talking about "in practice".
I had though I had explicitly stated it too...

Milskidasith
2009-09-23, 11:14 PM
pretty every DM I know follows those exact same rules... on occasion some different opinions on disjunctions.


And here is our major disconnect. I am not talking about "in theory", I am talking about "in practice".

No, you are arguing about theory and then saying it's in practice when I show how theory breaks you. If you wanted "in practice" you wouldn't have asked for a theoretical opponent a reasonably optimized sorcerer would fall to but a wizard would not. You would have simply said "It's unlikely that will work in a real campaign" which we already know, and then been done with it.

Still, wizards do have more "reasonable" options in a real campaign; they can use Wish, Meteor Swarm, Gate in an ally (not chain, just Gate), Stop time, and turn into a Dragon if they want, while sorcerers are more limited.

taltamir
2009-09-23, 11:16 PM
No, you are arguing about theory and then saying it's in practice when I show how theory breaks you. If you wanted "in practice" you wouldn't have asked for a theoretical opponent a reasonably optimized sorcerer would fall to but a wizard would not. You would have simply said "It's unlikely that will work in a real campaign" which we already know, and then been done with it.

Still, wizards do have more "reasonable" options in a real campaign; they can use Wish, Meteor Swarm, Gate in an ally (not chain, just Gate), Stop time, and turn into a Dragon if they want, while sorcerers are more limited.

Ok, forget what you think I argued so far.

I am arguing that, when you PLAY THEM IN A REAL GAME. A sorcerer is NOT hampered in combat by its more limited spells known assuming wise spell choices; it can still effectively fight whatever it is facing. Thus the wizards so called "advantage" is illegitimate.

Vangor
2009-09-23, 11:17 PM
And here is our major disconnect. I am not talking about "in theory", I am talking about "in practice".

The problem with attempting to discuss the tiers in practice is the tiers are meant as relative guides based on a relative knowledge and competency by the player. Tier 1 simply defeats Tier 2 only for the reasons Milskidasith represents, potentially linked spells for insane versatility. Otherwise, Tier 2 is equivalently powerful, but the restriction is in fewer situations.

Truthfully, equally optimized Sorcerers and Wizards should be about equivalent against one another in a singular fight. However, after a singular combat the Wizard knows a majority of the highest level spells of the Sorcerer, and all the Sorcerer knows is he faces a high level Wizard.

Kylarra
2009-09-23, 11:20 PM
Ok, forget what you think I argued so far.

I am arguing that, when you PLAY THEM IN A REAL GAME. A sorcerer is NOT hampered in combat by its more limited spells known assuming wise spell choices; it can still effectively fight whatever it is facing. Thus the wizards so called "advantage" is illegitimate.You're entirely correct. Tier 2 and Tier 1 characters both "win" generally. The difference is Tier 1 has slightly more versatility than Tier 2, so they can do everything Tier 2 can do (ie the wizard can know nearly all of sorcerer's spells, all with cheese) and then a bit more.

Milskidasith
2009-09-23, 11:20 PM
Ok, forget what you think I argued so far.

I am arguing that, when you PLAY THEM IN A REAL GAME. A sorcerer is NOT hampered by its more limited spells known assuming wise spell choices. Thus the wizards so called "advantage" is illegitimate.

Ninth level spells... A wizard can blast (badly) with meteor swarm, buff with Time Stop, be cool and stronger with Shapechange, change reality with Wish, call in an ally with Gate, and have his own plane of Diamonds with Genesis. Sorcerers only get a few of those, so they are inherently more limited than Wizards, even in a game where both of them are going to kill everything but other casters easily.

Also: Scrolls of 9th level, EXP costing spells are a huge chunk of cash even for a level 20 PC.

This still ignores the point that tiers are entirely comprised on theory and optimization, and by throwing those out the window for "reasonable campaign" your entire topic is pointless. It's like saying "if you don't use special moves Akuma isn't broken" or "if you don't SHFFL Fox isn't as theoretically perfect" or "if you don't break it, that card that let you swap one health for one mana in M:tG didn't need to be banned."

You can't say that the sorc can equal a wizard by giving them both the same limitations, because it's no longer a wizard, it's a sorcerer with bonus metamagic feats.

Yukitsu
2009-09-23, 11:21 PM
In real play, I tend to adhere pretty closely to low end theory play, so the difference between wizards and sorcerers is painfully obvious.

Above ground, I use one set of spells known, under ground I use others, desert another, ice level another, volcano another etc.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-09-23, 11:32 PM
I've not had time to read the whole thread, so this may have been said before...

Wizards are higher tier than sorcerers because within a 24-hour period they can radically change their capabilities and specialties to suite the situation. Since they know a huge range of spells, they can suit themselves up for practically any occasion.

For example, trekking through arctic wastes to get to Dracula's fortress-of-doom, a Wizard can prepare Endure Elements, Fireblast, Incendiary cloud, Scorching Ray, Assay Spell Resistance, Acid Fog and other such spells to prepare for the white dragon swarms that infest the north.
Once the party has arrived at Dracula's fortress and rested in the wizard's in the wizard's rope-trick, the wizard can prepare Magic Circle against Evil, Assay Spell Resistance, Glitterdust, Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, Haste, Undeath to Death, and other such anti-Dracula spells.

If the party had a Sorcerer instead of a Wizard, such a rapid change in focus would be impossible.

taltamir
2009-09-23, 11:48 PM
The problem with attempting to discuss the tiers in practice is the tiers are meant as relative guides based on a relative knowledge and competency by the player. Tier 1 simply defeats Tier 2 only for the reasons Milskidasith represents, potentially linked spells for insane versatility. Otherwise, Tier 2 is equivalently powerful, but the restriction is in fewer situations.

Truthfully, equally optimized Sorcerers and Wizards should be about equivalent against one another in a singular fight. However, after a singular combat the Wizard knows a majority of the highest level spells of the Sorcerer, and all the Sorcerer knows is he faces a high level Wizard.

absolutely correct... but that posits that you are a LONE wizards / sorc, at level 20, fighting another one, alone, and then the fight ends in a draw.

Which contributes more to a party fighting a 20th level lich or a dragon though?


Ninth level spells... A wizard can blast (badly) with meteor swarm, buff with Time Stop, be cool and stronger with Shapechange, change reality with Wish, call in an ally with Gate, and have his own plane of Diamonds with Genesis. Sorcerers only get a few of those, so they are inherently more limited than Wizards, even in a game where both of them are going to kill everything but other casters easily.

Also: Scrolls of 9th level, EXP costing spells are a huge chunk of cash even for a level 20 PC.

This still ignores the point that tiers are entirely comprised on theory and optimization, and by throwing those out the window for "reasonable campaign" your entire topic is pointless. It's like saying "if you don't use special moves Akuma isn't broken" or "if you don't SHFFL Fox isn't as theoretically perfect" or "if you don't break it, that card that let you swap one health for one mana in M:tG didn't need to be banned."

You can't say that the sorc can equal a wizard by giving them both the same limitations, because it's no longer a wizard, it's a sorcerer with bonus metamagic feats.

Than it seems I did not understand the meaning of the tiers system. If it ignores contribution to party in real gameplay and instead only measures level 20 one on one battles.


I've not had time to read the whole thread, so this may have been said before...

Wizards are higher tier than sorcerers because within a 24-hour period they can radically change their capabilities and specialties to suite the situation. Since they know a huge range of spells, they can suit themselves up for practically any occasion.

For example, trekking through arctic wastes to get to Dracula's fortress-of-doom, a Wizard can prepare Endure Elements, Fireblast, Incendiary cloud, Scorching Ray, Assay Spell Resistance, Acid Fog and other such spells to prepare for the white dragon swarms that infest the north.
Once the party has arrived at Dracula's fortress and rested in the wizard's in the wizard's rope-trick, the wizard can prepare Magic Circle against Evil, Assay Spell Resistance, Glitterdust, Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, Haste, Undeath to Death, and other such anti-Dracula spells.

If the party had a Sorcerer instead of a Wizard, such a rapid change in focus would be impossible.

Most of these spells the sorcerer will have already. and if not (for example, lets say you did not take undeath to death), you can still cast less "optimal" spells more times; and there is an entire PARTY after all.. for example.

Actually I REALLY REALLY Like this example... You are facing a high level vampire... you are level 12... The wizard can cast 2 undeath to death. The Sorcerer is stuck with disintegrate. But he can cast it 3 times. lvl 13, its 4 vs 2...

Actually at those examples the wizard spell progression is what helps it be ahead... while it can cast disintegrate at level 11, the sorc has to wait till level 12

Kylarra
2009-09-23, 11:53 PM
Than it seems I did not understand the meaning of the tiers system. If it ignores contribution to party in real gameplay and instead only measures level 20 one on one battles.You don't seem to understand the meaning of the tier system if that's what you think the tier system does. The tier system posits the relative power levels in the game for each class.

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.



So yes, Sorcerer has the same raw power as Wizard in game, and for the most part the differences won't come into play.

Milskidasith
2009-09-23, 11:57 PM
You still misunderstood the tier system. It measures a classes capability, yes, but this is capability at all levels, with low-end theory amounts of optimization. At that point, Tier 1 and Tier 2 are pretty much guaranteed to be able to defeat most reasonable encounters. Not only that, but the ninth level spells I listed aren't even all combat related, nor do they mention one on one fights. A wizard could just as easily use his expanded spell list to fight against a Lich, a Dragon, a Sorcerer, another batboop paranoid 9th level casting wizard, a sorcerer, a horde of lesser dragons, etc. A sorcerer has less spells known, and is therefore less versatile (even if you can't pick different spells, a wizard still has enough spells known to have a different spell in every 9th level slot, which a sorcerer doesn't have.)

Tier 1s have 200 nukes for every situation.
Tier 2s have 20 nukes that can be used in different situations and will almost always work except against tier 1s.

That's what tiers are saying. When you ignore optimization, all the advantages tier 1s get, and the basic theory that knowing all spells is better than knowing very few and that you might have a clue what you are going to fight, then yes, wizards and sorcs are equal. Even in actual gameplay, without those assumptions wizards are *slightly* ahead, though not by enough to call sorcerers weak.

tyckspoon
2009-09-23, 11:57 PM
Than it seems I did not understand the meaning of the tiers system. If it ignores contribution to party in real gameplay and instead only measures level 20 one on one battles.


It doesn't measure only level 20 PvP. It's just that in most party-vs-monster encounters an optimized Tier 1 character and an optimized Tier 2 character look a lot alike. They're both far more powerful than most of the game was written to handle, and you won't find the things that distinguish them unless you really start teasing out unusual situations. PC vs PC setups happen to be one of the most efficient ways to set up those unusual situations.

taltamir
2009-09-23, 11:58 PM
You don't seem to understand the meaning of the tier system if that's what you think the tier system does. The tier system posits the relative power levels in the game for each class.

So yes, Sorcerer has the same raw power as Wizard in game, and for the most part the differences won't come into play.

oh wow, is my face red... yea i did not understand the tier system at all. I thought it was "usefulness and strength" basically.

Vangor
2009-09-24, 12:02 AM
Which contributes more to a party fighting a 20th level lich or a dragon though?

The first time? A Lich or Dragon comparable to combating a party of 20th level adventurers shouldn't die upon the first true encounter. Both should exist long enough to construct contingencies including magic items, spells in reserve, literal contingencies, and similar.

Besides, the question still must consider how much in advance the party knew of the Lich or the Dragon, and the current spells the Wizard has prepared compared to the spells the Sorcerer knows is excessively important. If the Sorcerer has any Electricity or Cold spells, those are worthless against the Lich, as are compulsions and such, as are paralysis spells, poisons and diseases, any fortitude save, etc.. No amount of preparation beyond leveling and making one of the utterly limited spells known changes could alter what spells are rendered useless against a Lich or a Dragon or similar creature of appropriate type.

Vangor
2009-09-24, 12:10 AM
oh wow, is my face red... yea i did not understand the tier system at all. I thought it was "usefulness and strength" basically.

Tier System (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=21479288d97bd2362f44db54c483bd 58&topic=1002.0)

This is why I was trying to explain in the span of subsequent spell duels between a Wizard and a Sorcerer. Both are effectively equal from stage one, simply because the Wizard probably has spells prepared for a variety of encounters and the Sorcerer has spells known for a variety of encounters. Fight one, beyond chains of game breaking spells which the Sorcerer cannot perform due to limitations on spells known, no decisive victor.

What truly separates Tier 1 from Tier 2 is the versatility which is rather defined by planning. A campaign with planning is not too common in my experience, because what is being engaged often isn't known as this spoils the intensity of the exploration and the surprise of the story. Vast majority of play you will never see a difference.

taltamir
2009-09-24, 01:03 AM
Most of these spells the sorcerer will have already. and if not (for example, lets say you did not take undeath to death), you can still cast less "optimal" spells more times; and there is an entire PARTY after all.. for example.

Actually I REALLY REALLY Like this example... You are facing a high level vampire... you are level 12... The wizard can cast 2 undeath to death. The Sorcerer is stuck with disintegrate. But he can cast it 3 times. lvl 13, its 4 vs 2...

Actually at those examples the wizard spell progression is what helps it be ahead... while it can cast disintegrate at level 11, the sorc has to wait till level 12

After reading the tier system description and seeing what it is really about, I see the real difference.

Scenarios are especially useful for showing how different classes break things up, and it comes down to "how can you break the world" not effectiveness and survival in combat.

I very much like the three scenarios given in the tier system link too:

Situation 1: A Black Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him.

Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.

Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war.


Tier 2: The Sorcerer. Situation 1: It really depends on the Sorcerer's spell load out. If he's got Greater Floating Disk, Spectral Hand, and Shivering Touch, this one's going to be easy as pie, since he can just float down (and carry his party in the process) to avoid many traps, then nail the dragon in one shot from a distance. If he doesn't he'd need scrolls with the same issues that the UMD Rogue and Beguiler would need. If he's got Explosive Runes he could create a bomb that would take out the Dragon in one shot. If he's got Polymorph he could turn the party melee into a Hydra for extra damage. If he's got Alter Self he could turn himself into a Skulk to get down there sneakily. Certainly, it's possible that the Sorcerer could own this scenario... if he has the right spells known. That's always the hard part for a Sorcerer. Situation 2: Again, depends on the spell. Does he have divinations that will help him know who's part of the resistance and who's actually an evil spy for the Tyranical Govenerment? Does he have charm? Alter Self would help a ton here too for disguise purposes if he has it. Once again, the options exist that could totally make this easy, but he might not have those options. Runestaffs would help a bit, but not that much. Scrolls would help too, but that requires access to them and good long term preparation. Situation 3: Again, does he have Wall of Iron or Wall of Stone to make fortifications? Does he have Wall of Fire to disrupt the battlefield? How about Mind Rape and Love's Pain to kill off the enemy commanders without any ability to stop him? Does he have Blinding Glory on his spell list, or Shapechange, or Gate? Well, maybe. He's got the power, but if his spells known don't apply here he can't do much. So, maybe he dominates this one, maybe not.

Tier 1: The Wizard. Situation 1: Memorize Greater Floating Disk, Shivering Touch, and Spectral Hand. Maybe Alter Self too for stealth reasons. Kill dragon. Memorize Animate Dead too, because Dragons make great minions (seriously, there's special rules for using that spell on dragons). Sweet, you have a new horsie! Or, you know, maybe you Mind Rape/Love's Pain and kill the dragon before he even knows you exist, then float down and check it out. Or maybe you create a horde of the dead and send them in, triggering the traps with their bodies. Or do the haunt shift trick and waltz in with a hardness of around 80 and giggle. Perhaps you cast Genesis to create a flowing time plane and then sit and think about what to do for a year while only a day passes on the outside... and cast Explosive Runes every day during that year. I'm sure you can come up with something. It's really your call. Situation 2: Check your spell list. Alter Self and Disguise Self can make you look like whoever you need to look like. Locate Creature has obvious utility. Heck, Contact Other Plane could be a total cheating method of finding the guy you're trying to find. Clairvoyance is also handy. It's all there. Situation 3: Oh no, enemy army! Well, if you've optimized for it, there's always the locate city bomb (just be careful not to blow up the friendly guys too). But if not, Love's Pain could assassinate the leaders. Wall of Iron/Stone could create fortifications, or be combined with Fabricate to armour up some of the troops. Or you could just cast Blinding Glory and now the entire enemy army is blind with no save for caster level hours. Maybe you could Planar Bind an appropriate outsider to help train the troops before the battle. Push comes to shove, Gate in a Solar, who can cast Miracle (which actually does have a "I win the battle" option)... or just Shapechange into one, if you prefer.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-24, 01:53 AM
Situation 1: A Black Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him.

Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.

Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war.

Hm. I have a sorcerer built for a challenge a while back. Let me dredge her up...

Rachel, Mage of the Arcane Order (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=28356)

Situation 1:

Fly in, Dimension Step past or Disintegrate through all obstacles and Enervate the dragon repeatedly as necessary until Dragon is dead. Use Resist Energy and Wings of Cover for your defense.

Situation 2:

Teleport in, break into a jail to extract a known member of la Resistance, and have him take you to the leader. Use Bluff to convince them if all else fails.

Situation 3:

Wall of Stone. Repeatedly.

Myrmex
2009-09-24, 02:01 AM
I think Wizards are ranked higher than Sorcerer's by char op for two reasons:
1. It's much easier to get the hilarious iwin combos off when you can know all the spells.

2. In a game where there is literally a spell to do anything, the guy who can potentially know all the spells can potentially do all things. This gets conflated with having the ability to do all things at all times, though with a "properly"* played wizard, you should always always have the spells you need.



*I use irony marks here because a properly played wizard is actually a theoretical concept that has little relevance to the sort of game most of us want to play, and certainly has no role in party play.

taltamir
2009-09-24, 02:36 AM
I think Wizards are ranked higher than Sorcerer's by char op for two reasons:
1. It's much easier to get the hilarious iwin combos off when you can know all the spells.

2. In a game where there is literally a spell to do anything, the guy who can potentially know all the spells can potentially do all things. This gets conflated with having the ability to do all things at all times, though with a "properly"* played wizard, you should always always have the spells you need.



*I use irony marks here because a properly played wizard is actually a theoretical concept that has little relevance to the sort of game most of us want to play, and certainly has no role in party play.

I think I only got it when I compared undeath to death to disintegrate. or saw the dragon slaying combo...

Kurald Galain
2009-09-24, 04:40 AM
Assuming you're not a flawless optimizer from the start...

if you're playing a wizard, and have selected a spell that turns out to be not all that great in practice (or simply doesn't fit your style), you can generally pay some small change to learn a new spell, and in the future use that one instead. The bad spell only takes up a few cheap pages in your ubiquitous spellbook.

if you're playing a sorcerer, and have selected a spell that turns out to be not all that great in practice (or simply doesn't fit your style), you're stuck with it until you get one of your (few) retrains. The bad spell takes up one of your preciously limited spells-known slots.

This is a big reason why wizards are "higher" than sorcerers. Other reasons include (1) getting all spell levels a level earlier, (2) free feats, (3) quicken spell, and (4) more skill points. That doesn't make sorcerers a bad class though, they're still very powerful.

axraelshelm
2009-09-24, 05:07 AM
You know, this reminds me, I keep on hearing about that (because it is in the class description) but it NEVER materializes... I am considering starting a tangent thread about this issue...

How exactly does a wizard prepare "for the job ahead"? does he cast scry and have the DM tell him "you see that today you will be fighting goblins, and a troll, prepare acid spells"

I mean, it makes no sense... Unless you are the aggressor (which is rarely the case in DnD), you are NOT preparing for the job ahead, you are prepared for some "general encounters"... You get versatile spells that can be used against anything... They say "a plan never survives first contact", it is so true, quite often I find my wizard to have no spell fitting a specific enemy that came up as a surprise... a sorcerer has access to all his spells, always. And due to having more them... well the enemy might be immune to my usual tactics, so lets just buff.

PS. what rogue equipment?

From theives tools to grappling hooks maybe it's just my rogue but I like to keep Alot of gear on me to fit into as many situation as possible. My rogue wants several types of bullets to combat different foes ice/fire/acid/holy water you name it.
Rarely the case that a pc is the aggressor? well you can do a knowledge nature check or a something simalar to know what you might come up against Random encounters have creatures that are of that region so prepare against the most powerful ones or the most abundant ones.

Will save spells for big dumb brutes
Reflex area effects for crowd control
Fort I never have to use it and your dms probably gaved the creature a huge ammount of hitpoints anyway.

Gnaeus
2009-09-24, 05:20 AM
Actually I REALLY REALLY Like this example... You are facing a high level vampire... you are level 12... The wizard can cast 2 undeath to death. The Sorcerer is stuck with disintegrate. But he can cast it 3 times. lvl 13, its 4 vs 2...

Level 12 it is 3 versus 3 if wizard if wizard specializes. 3 versus 4 if wizard is focused specialist. 4 v 4 or 4 v 5 with stat bonuses And wizard spells are not only chosen based on the day, he can pick 4 or 5 different spells, while sorc has to spam 1. So much for vaunted flexibility of spont casters.

Level 13 isn't 4 versus 2, it is 0 versus 1 (or 2, or 3, or 4 in the likely event that 13th lev focused spec wiz has a 24 int.)

kme
2009-09-24, 08:14 AM
IMO sorcerers can easily be stronger offensively if they carefully choose their spell list. This is because of spontaneous casting. The wizard may prepare more different spells but this is almost always wasted, since many times it will be just better to use one good spell every combat or multiple times in the same combat.

The difference in spell progression is not that important anyway. Feats can be, if you are trying to get some specific combo but this is not the case with every build.

The biggest advantage of the wizard IMO is in his ability to use hour per level buffs or some other long duration spells that you may want to use every day once. A sorcerer probably cannot afford to have all heart of X spells, overland flight, greater mage armor, superior resistance etc. This combined with other lesser advantages probably puts the wizard ahead of the sorcerer.

Vizzerdrix
2009-09-24, 02:08 PM
Another point in favor of wizards: Crafting magic items. Wizards have an easier time of it than sorcs do.

Doug Lampert
2009-09-24, 02:55 PM
pretty every DM I know follows those exact same rules... on occasion some different opinions on disjunctions.

I used to consider putting a sign "This Dungeon Protected by Disjunction Traps" outside a cave and seeing if the party would ever actually go in. I'm betting not.

D&D 3.x worlds cry out for widespread use of disjunction traps and items at the higher levels/threats/CRs, there's nothing else that's even close to being as effective at taking down buffs, and at higher levels the side with its buffs up at the start of the fight wins. Similarly, once the PCs get a reputation the bad-guys ought to be thinking hard about how to hit them with a high DC disjunction and take out all that effectively irreplaceable gear. But the game isn't really any fun that way. IMAO this is one of many, many, many problems with 3.x high level play.

taltamir
2009-09-24, 02:59 PM
I used to consider putting a sign "This Dungeon Protected by Disjunction Traps" outside a cave and seeing if the party would ever actually go in. I'm betting not.

D&D 3.x worlds cry out for widespread use of disjunction traps and items at the higher levels/threats/CRs, there's nothing else that's even close to being as effective at taking down buffs, and at higher levels the side with its buffs up at the start of the fight wins. Similarly, once the PCs get a reputation the bad-guys ought to be thinking hard about how to hit them with a high DC disjunction and take out all that effectively irreplaceable gear. But the game isn't really any fun that way. IMAO this is one of many, many, many problems with 3.x high level play.

also, I don't see how disjunction, considering what it does, could POSSIBLE NOT kill any lich / dragon / elemental / golem whatever it is cast on. Even if you go strictly by the things it is said to do and not the description of how it does it.. it should still insta destroy a phallancy, killing the lich.

It is just a horrible horrible spell.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-24, 03:21 PM
The problem with attempting to discuss the tiers in practice is the tiers are meant as relative guides based on a relative knowledge and competency by the player. Tier 1 simply defeats Tier 2 only for the reasons Milskidasith represents, potentially linked spells for insane versatility. Otherwise, Tier 2 is equivalently powerful, but the restriction is in fewer situations.

Truthfully, equally optimized Sorcerers and Wizards should be about equivalent against one another in a singular fight. However, after a singular combat the Wizard knows a majority of the highest level spells of the Sorcerer, and all the Sorcerer knows is he faces a high level Wizard.

Actually, after the first fight, the sorc is probably dead due to action economy. Using metamagic effectively as a sorc is hard, and given the feat starvation they suffer, they're pretty limited in dealing with that effectively. In a caster vs caster fight, endurance is not usually a big factor...

Vangor
2009-09-24, 03:54 PM
also, I don't see how disjunction, considering what it does, could POSSIBLE NOT kill any lich / dragon / elemental / golem whatever it is cast on. Even if you go strictly by the things it is said to do and not the description of how it does it.. it should still insta destroy a phallancy, killing the lich.

It is just a horrible horrible spell.

To note, the bulk of protections for phylacteries should be on assuring the secrecy of the phylactery and keeping people from coming near enough to potentially Mordekainen's Disjunction the whole chamber and spells specifically on the item, or easier methods. However, the Lich is not destroyed due to destruction of the phylactery, the Lich merely can now be permanently destroyed. To my knowledge, a Lich cannot create an additional phylactery after the first is destroyed, but while one is intact this can be divided by a Lich who has survived for quite a time.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-24, 03:55 PM
Actually, after the first fight, the sorc is probably dead due to action economy. Using metamagic effectively as a sorc is hard, and given the feat starvation they suffer, they're pretty limited in dealing with that effectively. In a caster vs caster fight, endurance is not usually a big factor...

Arcane Spellsurge, Greater Arcane Fusion, and Arcane Fusion.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-24, 04:05 PM
Yes, you can dump feats at fixing it, but then you have fewer feats left for metamagic. And at this point, you don't really have any feats left for anything else. Keep in mind that most prestige classes are going to have feat prereqs as well.

The wizard gets his metamagic feats as a bonus, leaving his standard feats to do further optimizing with, it's a rather sizable advantage.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-24, 04:06 PM
Yes, you can dump feats at fixing it, but then you have fewer feats left for metamagic. And at this point, you don't really have any feats left for anything else. Keep in mind that most prestige classes are going to have feat prereqs as well.

The wizard gets his metamagic feats as a bonus, leaving his standard feats to do further optimizing with, it's a rather sizable advantage.

Those weren't feats.

Kurald Galain
2009-09-24, 04:10 PM
I used to consider putting a sign "This Dungeon Protected by Disjunction Traps" outside a cave and seeing if the party would ever actually go in. I'm betting not.

Oh, I'm totally putting that sign on my next cave that has three goblins and an ogre in it :smalltongue:

taltamir
2009-09-24, 06:14 PM
Arcane Spellsurge (Dragon Magic): Invaluable for sorcerers, but cheese in its purest form, seriously. For 1 round/level, it decreases the casting time of all your spells by one factor, namely, a standard action becomes a swift action, a full round becomes a standard action. This means you, sorcerer, can apply metamagic and still cast as a standard action and its a freackin' free quicken spell for non-metamagicked castings. Go nuts with quickened high level spells.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69581

PS... how do you do a spoiler tag?

Kylarra
2009-09-24, 06:15 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69581

PS... how do you do a spoiler tag?

[ spoiler ]stuffgoeshere[ /spoiler ]

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-24, 06:23 PM
Arcane Spellsurge, Greater Arcane Fusion, and Arcane Fusion.

We all know the problem with these three spells though. Spells known suck. That's a 7th level, a 5th level, and an 8th level. And the Wizard can get those very same spells via Recaster or Wyrm Wizard-dipping.

That's actually the biggest problem: The Sorcerer-only spells? Work even better for the Wizard/Archivist/Erudite. The Wizard-only spells? Not the same way (Mage's Lucubration, for example, is next-to-worthless unless the Sorcerer has the ability to prepare spells through a feat, and even then it still doesn't help out much).

Of course, restricting Arcane Fusion to Spells Known only means the Wizard needs to invest in Spell Mastery, which leads into Uncanny Forethought.

olentu
2009-09-24, 06:29 PM
We all know the problem with these three spells though. Spells known suck. That's a 7th level, a 5th level, and an 8th level. And the Wizard can get those very same spells via Recaster or Wyrm Wizard-dipping.

That's actually the biggest problem: The Sorcerer-only spells? Work even better for the Wizard/Archivist/Erudite. The Wizard-only spells? Not the same way (Mage's Lucubration, for example, is next-to-worthless unless the Sorcerer has the ability to prepare spells through a feat, and even then it still doesn't help out much).

Of course, restricting Arcane Fusion to Spells Known only means the Wizard needs to invest in Spell Mastery, which leads into Uncanny Forethought.

Spell mastery only lets one prepare spells that one already knows without a spellbook.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-24, 06:30 PM
Spell mastery only lets one prepare spells that one already knows without a spellbook.

It also makes them effective spells known*.







*:Uncanny Forethought may be required.

olentu
2009-09-24, 06:36 PM
It also makes them effective spells known*.







*:Uncanny Forethought may be required.

Let me phrase it this way



Benefit: Each time you take this feat, choose a number of spells equal to your Intelligence modifier that you already know. From that point on, you can prepare these spells without referring to a spellbook

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-24, 06:40 PM
Let me phrase it this way

Ok then, no Spell Mastery needed. So Arcane Fusion works just as well for the Wizard as it does for the Archivist.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-24, 06:47 PM
Usually, although you can break more stuff with a high Cha. Also, Ruin Delver's Fortune is virtually useless to a wizard, but any sorcerer without it should probably be slapped.
Isn't that a Bard spell?

Tyndmyr
2009-09-24, 09:02 PM
Those weren't feats.

Mmm? I was under the impression that there wasn't much in the way of non-feat ways to make metamagic work for sorcs. How's this work?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-24, 11:05 PM
Mmm? I was under the impression that there wasn't much in the way of non-feat ways to make metamagic work for sorcs. How's this work?

Greater Arcane Fusion (8th) allows you to cast a 7th or lower level spell and a 4th or lower level spell at the same time by expending an 8th level spell slot.

Arcane Fusion (5th) allows you to do the same for a 4th and 1st level spell with a 5th level spell slot.

Arcane Spellsurge, level 7 makes your spells spells take one less round to cast, turning full-round spells into standard actions, and standard actions into swift actions. It is itself a swift action to cast (for Dragonblood casters), and lasts for one round per level.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-24, 11:21 PM
Spellsurge would be the best of the lot, imo. The others are still good, but suffer from the lower spell levels. You *can* certainly abuse metamagic reducers to keep your spells from climbing rapidly in cost in conjunction with their power, but the aforementioned lack of feats limits this. Spellsurge is going to be the best at novas, then.

Of course, the problem with all of these is that the wizard simply has more advantages than the sorc. The sorc can trade his advantages to negate some wizard advantages, but the wizard is still better off overall. Using spells known to boost nova ability is an example of this...spells known are already a limited commodity.