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View Full Version : Way to beat utopia



nolispe
2009-09-23, 04:48 AM
this is a spring off of the Epic spell utopia (homebrew), and if someone knows of it, then please put it up.
simple question. given all the resorces of the universe (no, not infinite. you get say 10,000 planets, and heven, hell, etc.. but not infinity so only abyss up to layer, say 6666. ) how do you stop a force of 10^413 ordanary people, who have perfect communication, free teleportation to a portal or a large group of themselves, and are perfectly loyal? these ordanary people have the standard bell curve for phiscal stats, but, for the sake of human comprehension, average INT, WIS, and CHA. all cheese accepted, but remember that these forces have the 1 in a million natural 3 levels in sorc, but much more so.
the spell: 3 day ritual. creates a demiplane, which is 100x100x100 feet. it is filled with "the conditions nessasary to sustain life" this has a ability to replicate itself a number of times equal to the number of "creatures attuned to the demiplane^0.1(min 1)xthe creature's rate of population growth" daily. the spell also creates 2 creatures, of a level adjustment not more than 4, who are the original "group attuned to the plane" they, and all of thier offspring, are attuned to the plane. the creatures can also replicate, as they have the ability bestowed to act in the same way as the plane. so
day 1. 1x2x(1x2(1x2(... rinse and reapeat. its a positive feedback loop; you have infinite population after one repeat.

you must beat them AFTER the army has been created. and no time travel, please.

taltamir
2009-09-23, 05:00 AM
make your own army that is better?

Bayar
2009-09-23, 05:00 AM
Can someone explain the OP's post in english ?

olentu
2009-09-23, 05:02 AM
Make a better epic spell.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-23, 05:03 AM
If they're only level 3 sorceror?

Archivist / 1 level in a PrC that grants Turn Undead

Mind Blank
DMM Persist Favor of the Martyr
DMM Persist Sheltered Vitality
DMM Persist Death Ward
Energy Immunity (Acid)
Energy Immunity (Fire)
DMM Persist Miracle, used to emulate Trollshape.

You're immune to mind influencing abilities, death effects, ability damage/drain, fatigue, exhaustion, and all damage.

If you're concerned about taking that many turn undead? With a Cha of 18 base, +5 for levels, +5 Item, you've for 28 (+9). That's 12 turns. Turn Undead x3 and a single Nightstick (one isn't broken, stacking is).

Level 3 sorcerors don't have a chance of dispelling you. Get a rope trick whenever the effects start to run out, rest, get spells back, get in form, and exit to resume.

It'll be bloody, but you should be able to kill an arbitrarily large number of level 3 characters.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-09-23, 05:10 AM
Make sure your DM doesn't allow the spell?

BobVosh
2009-09-23, 05:18 AM
Travel to the elemental plane of fire? With all that money you can easily find ways to make everyone that you could wish to take with you immune to fire damage. Repeat for all the various planes of damage/round.

Do you actually have to kill them? What is the point of winning? Can someone post the spell so it is easy to find a way around it?

More over the standard OP cheese wins. Pun-pun, infinite candle tricks, omnificier, etc.

Cleric of Mystra with the Initiate to Mystra...feat, class, whatever it was that allows them to cast in AMF would win. Along with several DMM legions spells, chain + SoD, etc.

Someone surely has a simple infinite summon loop for house cats. That would demolish lvl 3 sorcerers + lvl 1 commoners. Or even Utopia: Crazy cat lady. Summons 30^413 regular house cats. Every one in a million is a homebrewed version of the Elven cat from 2nd edition converted to 3.5.


If you're concerned about taking that many turn undead? With a Cha of 18 base, +5 for levels, +5 Item, you've for 28 (+9). That's 12 turns. Turn Undead x3 and a single Nightstick (one isn't broken, stacking is).
Um. DMM is broken. Without it I doubt anyone would care about cracksticks.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-23, 05:27 AM
Stuff.

More Stuff.

Pun-pun, infinite candle tricks, omnificier, etc.

Cleric of Mystra with the Initiate to Mystra...feat, class, whatever it was that allows them to cast in AMF...

Someone surely has a simple infinite summon loop for house cats.

Utopia: Crazy cat lady. Summons 30^413 regular house cats. Every one in a million is a homebrewed version of the Elven cat from 2nd edition converted to 3.5.

...

Um. DMM is broken. Without it I doubt anyone would care about cracksticks.
Let me see. Your suggestions are Pun Pun, Candle of Invocation, Omnificer, CoM with AMF Casting, infinite summon loops, and epic magic...

And then you say that DMM is broken? You have a strange view on the broken, my friend.

jseah
2009-09-23, 05:27 AM
If they follow the standard DMG distribution for classes and levels?

No, you can't win.

Somewhere in there, is an epic caster. Probably the guy responsible for all this.

If he's played properly, which is implied when this situation occurs, he ascended long ago and you end up at the far end of Tippy-verse. The good version of it in this thought experiment.

You can say lawful good = stupid. But with an epic wizard's power to back it up and that "mindrape for LG" spell, you won't be saying it for long.

################################################

If your character is allowed to pop into existence, then you can hope to outwit the other guy's epic spells. Better hope the DM isn't too bright.

woodenbandman
2009-09-23, 09:43 AM
Play GURPS. Anyone have that cheapo "Attack the universe 300 times per second" spell?

What level are we in this thought experiment? I think a ghost could kill the peasants, assuming their highest level is 3. With the 1 in a million 3rd level sorceror, a ghost with a brooch of shielding or 10 could win pretty well.

bosssmiley
2009-09-23, 10:01 AM
how do you stop a force of 10^413 ordinary people, who have perfect communication, free teleportation to a portal or a large group of themselves, and are perfectly loyal?

Spawning undead, lots of them. Shadows, Wights, Vampires, etc. To the spawners this exercise in numberwank just looks like the largest smorgasbord in the multiverse.

Brace for a creation hip-deep in level drainers. :smallwink:

MickJay
2009-09-23, 11:25 AM
Send a dozen Wights at them; calculate the time it will take to turn 10^413 humans into 10^413 wights; use that time to think up a method of getting rid of the wights :smalltongue:

taltamir
2009-09-23, 01:11 PM
use ice assassin to clone a divinity 21 god. order him to make you a god... make a bunch of other gods... use divine powers to do away with the sorcerers.

nolispe
2009-09-24, 02:16 AM
1. 10^413 is an abirtarly large number. they also increase in pop extreemly rapidly, so presume infinite amounts for current purposes. the spell: 3 day ritual. creates a demiplane, which is 100x100x100 feet. it is filled with "the conditions nessasary to sustain life" this has a ability to replicate itself a number of times equal to the number of "creatures attuned to the demiplane^0.1(min 1)xthe creature's rate of population growth" daily. the spell also creates 2 creatures, of a level adjustment not more than 4, who are the original "group attuned to the plane" they, and all of thier offspring, are attuned to the plane. the creatures can also replicate, as they have the ability bestowed to act in the same way as the plane. so
day 1. 1x2x(1x2(1x2(... rinse and reapeat. its a positive feedback loop; you have infinite population after one repeat.
pun pun get crushed by the bell curve. the phisiscal stats a spread in a bell curve, so you have an infinte number of creature with any arbitarly high stat.

nolispe
2009-09-24, 02:18 AM
and three levels in sorc was example. we have infinte ANy arbitarly high num of sorc levels. of course, to "even" the odds, we can say that they have no idea how to use them to the best effect.
in this senario, you are level... 10000. but the utopia is abjured by an infinite number of zillionth level sorcs.

Kylarra
2009-09-24, 02:22 AM
ordinary people don't use a 3d6 stat generations, normal NPCs/monsters use the 10/11 array or in various "special" cases the nonelite and elite arrays.

Google-fu finds Utopia (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Utopia_%283.5e_Epic_Spell%29) on the cra--- er D&Dwiki, which doesn't really clarify matters here.

You know most thought experiments have either some rational point they're trying to prove or amusement value, I'm not really finding either here.

BobVosh
2009-09-24, 02:54 AM
1. 10^413 is an abirtarly large number. they also increase in pop extreemly rapidly, so presume infinite amounts for current purposes.

You can't then. If we aren't allowed infinite resource, then we can't beat infinite resources.



Let me see. Your suggestions are Pun Pun, Candle of Invocation, Omnificer, CoM with AMF Casting, infinite summon loops, and epic magic...

And then you say that DMM is broken? You have a strange view on the broken, my friend.

I called that standard cheese.


If you're concerned about taking that many turn undead? With a Cha of 18 base, +5 for levels, +5 Item, you've for 28 (+9). That's 12 turns. Turn Undead x3 and a single Nightstick (one isn't broken, stacking is)
You are implying that only 1 nightstick + DMM isn't broken. All the things I said were broken especially DMM.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-24, 03:21 AM
You are implying that only 1 nightstick + DMM isn't broken. All the things I said were broken especially DMM.

I am implying that using 1 Nightstick for Extra Turning isn't broken.

Using 30 is.

DMM is somewhat cheese, yes. Nowhere near the levels of Candle of Invocation, though.

Rhydeble
2009-09-24, 03:42 AM
Utopia-beating simulator, right here. (http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/448950)

won't an infinite plane also have an infinite amount of Madagaskar?

Fortuna
2009-09-24, 04:50 AM
Hmmm. I don't know much about 3.5, but based on things already posted, I can make a few deductions.

1. These people will almost certainly be using the 10/11 stat array. This means, among other things, that only those with at least 32 natural levels will be throwing around 9th level/epic spells. EDIT:Sorry, that should be 28 natural levels.

2. In this case, it may be difficult for them to rustle up an antimagic field that they can use reliably on opponents. This means that they can be defeated by the Emerald legion ( http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101587), since they have no way of targeting their weaknesses. Admittedly, this is a similar idea to yours, but it is careful manufacturing as opposed to create a plane and leave it alone.

3. Spelling and grammar exist in order to make things like this OP readable.

Incidentally, might I suggest that you give us a rate of influx? As opposed to saying "They are infinite," could you not say "They come at a rate of X/round?"

And one last thing, could you please give us the exact spell with DC breakdown et cetera? Just so we know whether we are allowed e.g. gods to step in.