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pasko77
2009-09-23, 04:52 AM
Hello,
I'm currently DMing a WHFRP (2nd ed) campaign, and I just stumbled upon a "moral" dilemma.
In this ruleset (as it is in others, e.g. Exalted), wizards pay XP for learning spells, exactly like for other talents.
While this is reasonable for many combat and utility stuff (you gain power, ergo your level increases), this is unfair for stuff that I can only describe as "plot device".

For instance, in the Exalted Core manual, there is a spell which makes city walls crumble. Yeah, nice, but, metagaming, I would be quite pissed off to pay XP for this spell. I will use it maybe once, and just because the DM has planned for a city raze or whatever, while my teammates will have a new shiny combo for the same XP cost.

In my actual case, I need the wizard to learn a ritual to make a "submarine" for an underwater session. It would be a lot unfair to have him pay XP for that, would it not? Of course I'm gonna grant him the spell for free.

D&D4 follows the same policy: you pay XP (in this case, your level grants powers) for things that make you stronger, while rituals are as many as you can stuff in your books.

Opinions? Expecially in Exalted/WHFRP, what is the policy for "marginally useful" stuff?

The topic could be expanded for 3.5 feats, too. We all know feats are precious, and if a player takes two or three feats that are necessary for RP reasons, but mechanically they just suck, will you give them one or two bonus feats? (yes of course if no other players complain, no need for conflict [:)] )

Bye, Pasko

Kantur
2009-09-23, 05:17 AM
Personally, I'd try to find a way of giving the wizard some bonus XP (or refunded XP if you want to think of it that way :smalltongue:) - especially if you give the character a chance to get a spell they've been after for a while or this spell they know they'll need; putting the needs of the group before their personal wants.
Or perhaps even just some bonus XP at the end specifically for 'Getting a spell you didn't want but needed' so people know that if something's genuinely required and only they can get it that they won't be penalised for it.

jseah
2009-09-23, 05:34 AM
How about not making the spell so specific?

If the spell made city walls crumble, specify how it targets walls instead of leaving it to plot.

Eg.
Deals 10d6 damage (ignoring DR) to all construction material within 1000 10ft cubes with 1 mile range.

You can bet your wizard will be buying that spell. I'll buy it in a heartbeat for most games too.

EDIT: I know you're not using D&D, but I hope this still helps.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-23, 09:03 AM
How about not making the spell so specific?

If the spell made city walls crumble, specify how it targets walls instead of leaving it to plot.

Eg.
Deals 10d6 damage (ignoring DR) to all construction material within 1000 10ft cubes with 1 mile range.

You can bet your wizard will be buying that spell. I'll buy it in a heartbeat for most games too.

EDIT: I know you're not using D&D, but I hope this still helps.

Last I checked (referring to the Old World Armoury and WFRP core rulebook), items do not follow the Wound system that characters use. A spell that deals damage to objects isn't going to work properly.

jseah
2009-09-23, 09:50 AM
Last I checked (referring to the Old World Armoury and WFRP core rulebook), items do not follow the Wound system that characters use. A spell that deals damage to objects isn't going to work properly.
I'm not familiar with WFRP. =/

Although if you made the spell auto-destroy all construction materials (but not things like weapons and armour) it could do the same thing.

pasko77
2009-09-23, 09:52 AM
How about not making the spell so specific?

If the spell made city walls crumble, specify how it targets walls instead of leaving it to plot.

Eg.
Deals 10d6 damage (ignoring DR) to all construction material within 1000 10ft cubes with 1 mile range.

You can bet your wizard will be buying that spell. I'll buy it in a heartbeat for most games too.

EDIT: I know you're not using D&D, but I hope this still helps.

That's what I thought, indeed. The "submarine" spell should also make waterproof all the equipment, which is wider scope (expecially for characters with fire weapons).

But some spells are REALLY hard to rewrite. The exalted spell, for instance, has a casting time of 6 hours, and wipes out every defense in a city. High level and all, but how many times will you use it? And if you change it, it might risk becoming overpowered.
Best leave the spell "as is" and reduce (up to zero) the learning cost.

pasko77
2009-09-23, 10:01 AM
Personally, I'd try to find a way of giving the wizard some bonus XP (or refunded XP if you want to think of it that way :smalltongue:) - especially if you give the character a chance to get a spell they've been after for a while or this spell they know they'll need; putting the needs of the group before their personal wants.
Or perhaps even just some bonus XP at the end specifically for 'Getting a spell you didn't want but needed' so people know that if something's genuinely required and only they can get it that they won't be penalised for it.

I fail to see where this process is different from "give for free" :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

jseah
2009-09-23, 10:23 AM
But some spells are REALLY hard to rewrite. The exalted spell, for instance, has a casting time of 6 hours, and wipes out every defense in a city. High level and all, but how many times will you use it? And if you change it, it might risk becoming overpowered.
Best leave the spell "as is" and reduce (up to zero) the learning cost.
Have it break every single man-sized and bigger weapon/armour/shield/tank/turret? (so you can't use it to de-equip an army)

Restrict it's use to say... 2 mile circle (with 0ft range) that must include a certain population count? (say 100 000)

Do note that I'm just going off your descriptions. I'm not familiar with the ruleset you're using.

Kantur
2009-09-23, 10:36 AM
I fail to see where this process is different from "give for free" :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

Heh, what I'd been thinking was close, but not quite all of the experience back, say 70%ish. And a thank you to them afterwards, possibly a few minor mundane items in loot. (Since magic items are far from common in WHFB :smalltongue:)