Class and Level Geekery V (some [spoilers]) [Archive]

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Wrecan

2009-09-23, 06:30 AM

Please note that this post has not and will not be updated for any information after Comic 688. This thread has ceased to be enjoyable for me to maintain. I ask the mods that if someone starts a Class and Geekery Thread VI, that the new thread not be closed as duplicative of this one. Thanks geekerers for many years of enjoyment poring over 3.5 rules and comics! Good luck.
-wrecan

Welcome to the latest incarnation of the Class and Level Geekery thread! Here, we are discussing what the possible stats are for each of the six OOTS members. Below is my personal estimate of the characters' stats. I will update this post as the discussion continues and as subsequent strips reveal more information about OOTS. When I have to cite to a post where justification is given, I do so with a hyperlinked asterisk

Please note that we all know that Rich isn't necessarily being careful about the rules. Funny always trumps rules. Thus, there will always be some dispute as to some of the stats as some jokes are used as evidence as abilities and other strips are used as evidence of funny.

We also discuss the stats of other characters in OOTS, such as Xykon, the Linear Guild, Miko and others. I only ask that we not discuss the stats of characters that are from other stories, movies, comic strips and so on. Thanks and welcome!

Be sure to read the FAQ*

:roy:Roy Greenhilt
Lawful Good (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0490.html), Human Male (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0249.html) Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0285.html) 12
Attributes (39 pt buy min):
Str ≥20 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0004.html) (from magic item or level boost*)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ≥16 (consistent with Giant's description of Miko fight*)
Int 14-18 (“very good"*, but V's Int is "higher"*)
Wis ≥14 (“very good"*)
Cha ≥12 (“decent*)
Feats (13): Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0102.html), Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0064.html), Endurance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0162.html)...
Skills (≥60): Intimidate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0001.html), Ride 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0141.html)... No Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0139.html) or Sense Motive.
Abilities: Favored class (any)
Items: Armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) (medium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0005.html)*), Bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html), Boots (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html), greatsword +5 (with other unspecified bonuses) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0297.html), oil of shillelagh (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html), potion of delay poison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html), Bag of Tricks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0130.html), Belt of Giant Strength (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0687.html)...

:belkar:Belkar Bitterleaf
Chaotic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0230.html) Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html), Halfling (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0021.html) Male (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0140.html) Ranger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0022.html) ≥11*/Barbarian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0132.html) ≥1* (character level ≥13 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html))
Attributes (19 pt buy min):
Str ≥14 ("jump... exceeded movement..." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html)*)
Dex ≥15 (to use Two-Weapon Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html))
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10
Wis ≤9 ("I have an ... ability score penalty" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0475.html) in Profession skill checks)
Cha ≤10 (V includes him in those w/out any Cha (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0312.html))
Feats (10): Craft Disturbing Mental Image (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0249.html), EnduranceB, Greater Two-Weapon FightingB, Improved Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0325.html), Improved Two-Weapon FightingB, TrackB (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0022.html), Power Attack, Two-Weapon FightingB, Two-Weapon Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html)...
Skills (89): Balance ≥5 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0279.html), Climb (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0230.html), Craft (Trapmaking) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0270.html), Handle Animal 0, Hide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0468.html) (“a good Hide skill”) (+4), Intimidate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0450.html) (sufficient to intimidate cowardly eye of fear and flame), Jump (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0019.html), Listen 0 (+2), Move Silently (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0270.html) (“High”) (+2), Profession (gourmet chef) 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html), Search 0, Sense Motive 0, Speak languageB (halfling), Spot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0119.html) 0, Survival (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0213.html) 0.
Abilities: +1 saves, +1 thrown weapons, +2 v fear, Animal companion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0682.html), Evasion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0469.html), Fast movement, Favored class (rogue), Favored enemy x3 (probably humanoid (reptilian), humanoid (human) and one other), Rage, Small size, Swift tracker, Wild empathy, Woodland stride
Items: Chef's Hat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html), Cloak (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0107.html), 3 or more small magical daggers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html), red chalk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html), Bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html), lead sheet (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0281.html), Mama Bitterleaf's Secret +2 Circumstance Bonus Ingredient (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html), Ring of Jumpng +20 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0130.html), stilts, Sapphire guard disguise (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0294.html), string (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html), spice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0687.html)...

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-8/1204323/mr_scruffy.jpgMr. Scruffy
True neutral male Tiny Animal (cat) animal companion
Attributes:
Str ≥4
Dex ≥16
Con 10
Int 2
Wis 12
Cha 7
Feats: Stealthy, Weapon FinesseB
Skills (≥6): Listen 2, Spot 2...
Abilities: Animal companion (≥+2 HD, ≥+2 natural armor, ≥2 bonus tricks, Link, Share Spells, and Evasion, possibly more depending on number of Belkar's levels of ranger), Cat Skills (+4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, and Move Silently checks and a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Jump checks. Use Dexterity modifier instead of Strength modifier for Climb and Jump checks. In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus rises to +8).
Items: None

:durkon:Durkon Thundershield
Lawful (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html) Good, Dwarven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0076.html) Male (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0079.html) Cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0007.html) ≥13 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0556.html)
Attributes (12 pt buy min):
Str ≥14 (carries V while flying (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0507.html))
Dex <10 (in a Dragon article, says he has a Dex penalty)
Con ~12 (no evidence, dwarf)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis ≥17 (to use Control Weather scroll (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0352.html))
Cha ≤10 ("low Charisma modifier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0200.html)" and V includes him in those w/out any Cha (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0312.html))
Feats (5): Extra Turning (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0016.html) (probable, though not definite)...
Skills (≥31): Heal ≥1, Knowledge (Religion) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0052.html) ≥1 (but not much greater), Ride 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0141.html), Speak language (dwarven)... (No Listen)
Abilities: +1 v orcs and goblinoids (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html), +2 v spells and poison, +4 dodge AC v giants (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0219.html), +2 to Appraise and Craft stone and metal, bless beer*, clerical spells (with homebrew domains), darkvision, dwarf movement, favored class - fighter, stability (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0001.html), stonecunning, turn undead (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0016.html), weapon familiarity (dwarven waraxe, urgrosh)
Items: Amulet of Natural Armor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0130.html), flask, full plate armor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0025.html), holy symbol (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0073.html), heirloom shield, heirloom warhammer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0237.html), Bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html), religious vestments (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html), Scroll of Sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html), spyglass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html), belt pouch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0673.html)...

:elan:Elan
Chaotic Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html) Human Male Bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0050.html) 13 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html)/Dashing Swordsman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0390.html) ≥1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0392.html)
Attributes (16 pt buy min):
Str ≤20 ("more Charisma than Strength (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html)")
Dex ≥14 (weapon finesse, tumble)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ≤9 (V says can't "manage ... cantrips" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0127.html); Giant says "Int penalty"*)
Wis ≤9 (Roy says he doesn't even have a "smidgen" of Wisdom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0080.html))
Cha ≥20 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html) (to gain the 5th level spell slot required to have 5th level bardic spells at 13th level)
Feats (6): Dodge, Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0156.html), Weapon Finesse...
Skills (≥80): Diplomacy, Hide (wished he "had put more ranks in Hide") (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0468.html), Listen, Move Silently ≤1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0090.html), Perform (Sing) ≥6 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0262.html), Perform (Stringed Instruments) ≥6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0004.html), Perform (wind instruments) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0198.html), Ridecc≥2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0141.html), Speak Language ≤4(less than Haley's Intelligence Bonus), Tumble (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0026.html)...
Abilities: bardic music (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0034.html), bardic lore (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0018.html), charismatic strike (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0390.html), countersong, fascinate, favored class (any), glass damage immunity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0471.html), inspire competence (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0004.html), inspire courage +2, inspire greatness, song of freedom, suggestion
Items: Belt of charisma (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html), dashing outfit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0388.html), silver (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html) +3 keen rapier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0392.html), lute (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0471.html), Banjo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0073.html); no armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0594.html).
Spells (per day ≥ 3 5 4 4 3 1; known 6 4 4 4 4 2): Animate Rope (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0156.html), Disguise Self (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0387.html), Greater Dispel Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), Major Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0552.html), Mass Cure Light Wounds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), Mending (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0400.html), Neutralize Poison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), Prestidigitation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0085.html), Silent Image (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0019.html), Summon Plot Exposition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0013.html).

:haley:Haley Starshine
Chaotic Good (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0393.html), Human Female (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0029.html) Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0008.html) ≥15 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0615.html)
Attributes (26 pt buy min):
Str 11-15 (high enough to carry Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0470.html), but must drag Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0483.html))
Dex 20-21 ("modifier of +5"*)
Con ≥14 (consistent with Giant's description of Miko fight*)
Int ≥12 (received bonus languages)
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha ~10 (no evidence)
Feats (6+2): Dodge, Improved Precise Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0615.html), Manyshot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), Martial Weapon Proficiency (longbow) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html), Point Blank Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0062.html), Precise Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), Ranged Pin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), Ranged Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0511.html), Rapid Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0062.html).
Skills (≥159): Appraise (high), Bluff 16 (maxed ranks) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0412.html), Disable Device, Forgery, Hide ≥15 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html), Knowledge (Arcane) (probable), Open Lock ≥15 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0262.html), Ride 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0141.html), Search, Sense Motive ≥2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0171.html), Tumble (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0108.html), Use Rope ≥8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0069.html)...
Abilities: Evasion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0019.html), Favored class (any), Improved uncanny dodge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0604.html), Sneak attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0018.html) +8d6, 2 Special abilities (both are feats), Trapfinding, Trap sense +5, Uncanny dodge
Items: Magic leather armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html), dyed magical boots (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html), 8 Bags of Holding (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0130.html), +5 bow of icy air freshness (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0615.html), quivers of green arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0029.html) (inc'g silver and cold iron (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0062.html)), masterworked lockpicks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0029.html), rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), Bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html), at least 200,000 gp in cash (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0680.html)...

:vaarsuvius:Vaarsuvius
Non-evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html) alignment, Elven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0030.html) Ambiguously Gendered Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0009.html) 14 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html)
Attributes (12 pt buy min):
Str ≤9 ("I have a Strength penalty (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0245.html)")
Dex 10-11 (“no real attack bonus” on rays*)
Con ≤12 (consistent with Giant's description of Miko fight*)
Int 23, 19 unmodified (based on spells cast and limits thereof (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html))
Wis 10-12 ("moderate wisdom"*)
Cha 6-9 (can return as a ghost (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0163.html) with "poor charisma"*)
Feats (9): AlertnessB (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0003.html), Empower Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html), Martial Weapon ProficiencyB (composite longbow, composite shortbow, longbow, longsword, rapier, shortbow and shortsword), Maximiz Spell, Quicken Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html), Scribe ScrollB... Not Silent Spell* or Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0161.html)
Skills (97): Concentrate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0041.html)≤15, Craft (Alchemy), Knowledge (Arcane), Listen (+2), Ride 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0141.html), Spot (+2), Search 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0030.html) (+2), Speak language (elven), Spellcraft...
Abilities: +2 v enchantment, Barred school (Conjuration (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0340.html) and Necromancy), Specialized school (Evocation), Favored class (wizard), Immune to sleep, Low-light vision, Summon familiar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0003.html)...
Items: Headband of Intellect +4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html) (based on Intelligence calculations), Ring of Wizardry (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0130.html) (affects level ≥3 spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0323.html)), robes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0186.html), many (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0173.html) spellbooks, ink, paper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0306.html), two small gemstones (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0123.html), some item that increases Intelligence by at least 4*, Finding Plot Holes for Dummies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html), nine books of unknown title (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html), jar of diamond dust (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html). No potions or scrolls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html)...
Spells (per day -- 4+1 6+1 6+1 5+1 5+1 4+1 4+1 2+1): Banishment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0585.html), Bull's Strength (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0104.html), Chain Lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0106.html), Charm Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0335.html), Cone of Cold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0041.html), Crushing Despair (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0127.html), Detect Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0116.html), Dimensional Anchor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html), Disintegrate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0186.html), Dispel Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0049.html), Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0020.html), Expeditious Retreat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0005.html), Explosive Runes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0092.html), Feather Fall (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0240.html), Fireball (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0020.html), Fire Trap (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0323.html), Forcecage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html), Fly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0507.html), Grasping Hand (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0397.html), Gust of Wind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html), Haste (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html), Heroism (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html), Hold Person (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0200.html), Hold Portal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0178.html), Identify (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0009.html), Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0157.html), discount Invisibility Sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0088.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0020.html), Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0065.html), Mass Bear's Endurance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0427.html). Mass Bull's Strength (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0427.html), Mass Enlarge Person (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0427.html), Owl's Wisdom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0058.html), Power Word Blind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0306.html), Prestidigitation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0323.html), Prismatic Spray (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html), Protection From Arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0240.html), Scorching Ray (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0065.html), See Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html), Sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html), Sleep (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0065.html), Suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0178.html), Vaarsuvius' Enhanced Scrying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html), Vaarsuvius' Greater Animal Messenger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0563.html), Vampiric Touch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0049.html), Veil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)...

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/6766/familierbn5.pngBlackwing
True Neutral Male Tiny Magical Beast (Raven), 14 HD (1/2 of V's hp)
Attributes:
Str 1 (raven)
Dex 15 (raven)
Con 10 (raven)
Int 12 (raven, 14th level wizard's familiar)
Wis 14 (raven)
Cha 6 (raven)
Feats: Alertness (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html), Weapon FinesseB
Skills (Blackwing uses V's skill ranks, unless Blackwing's ranks are higher): Concentration, Craft (Alchemy), Knowledge (Arcane), Listen +5, Speak language (Common, Elven), Spellcraft, Spot +7
Abilities: Deliver touch spells, empathic link, improved evasion, low-light vision, share spells, speak with master, speak with birds, spell resistance 19, +7 to natural armor
Items: bauble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html), and tiny sombrero, fake beard and mustache (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html)

Wrecan

2009-09-23, 06:33 AM

Frequently Asked Questions
Q. Where did you get this idea?
A. The first incarnation of this thread was started by runolfr in the old version of the message boards. Everybody is always talking about this stuff and this thread is intended to be a central repository for all discussions of the stats of OOTS and the various NPCs (though I'm only keeping track of OOTS stats). You can read the prior version of this thread here:
Class and Level Geekery
Class and Level Geekery II
Class and Level Geekery III
Class and Level Geekery IV.

Q. Doesn't Comic X demonstrate Vaarsuvius' gender?
A. No. No! NO! Please read the FAQ (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq10). Better yet, I'll quote it verbatim:

Q: Is Vaarsuvius male or female?

A: I will never reveal the truth! Bwahaha! Keep in mind that while certain other characters might refer to V as being male or female, that simply reveals their perception, not the actual reality of the situation.

Q. When do the OOTS PCs level up?
A. OOTS is 10th level some time before episode 1, 11th level at episode 12, 12th level at 124, 13th level by 397 (Elan's 13th level was in his new prestige class), and Belkar hit 14th level in 515 (although if he failed his save against the wight's level drain, he'd still be 13th level). Haley was 15th level some time before 615. Vaarsuvius is definitively 14th by 627 (which is the definitive indication that OOTS ceased leveling up at the same rate since Roy's death). (Durkon may also be 15th level.) Elan raised a level in 647, and has 13 levels of bard and one or more levels of Dashing Swordsman. If Roy is raised from the dead, he will likely be reduced to 12th level.

Q. Why don't you list character ages?
A. A few reasons. First, age is only relevant in D&D if one changes Age Categories. As far as we can tell, everybody is in the "Adult" Age category. Second, the Giant has not been very, how shall we say, consistent, on character ages. Since there's no mechanical (read geeky) benefit/penalty to any specific age, unless someone changes age category in a strip, we're not tracking it.

Q. Why is Mr. Scruffy an animal companion? I don't think it's definitive.
A. The extended discussion on this begins here.

Q. In Comic 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0002.html), Elan praises his "six new skill points". Since human bards get 7+Int skill points per level, doesn't this mean that he has an Int penalty of -1 and an Intelligence of 8 or 9?
A. No. According to the Giant, he's referring to the the new rule for bards and skill points, which is 6/level (not including racial and ability bonuses), and that's 7+Int skill points per level, not per edition conversion. Elan hadn't just gained a level.

Q. Does Comic 17 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0017.html) mean that Belkar has a sonic sunder attack?
A. No. it would ruin the joke if Belkar was referring to some sonic attack, as opposed to making fun of the flimsiness of the standard rapier.

Q. In Comic 28 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0028.html), didn't Haley claim to have a Charisma of 18?
A. She was talking about Elan.

Q. In Comic 31 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html), Roy is more appetizing than Vaarsuvius to the illithid. Doesn't this mean Roy should have a higher Intelligence than Vaarsuvius?
A. No. The illithid apparently measures the aggregate of all the mental Abilities (Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma). V has a high Intelligence, but average Wisdom and low Charisma. Roy needs to have a higher aggregate score.

Q. In Comic 34 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html), Roy says Elan's bardic bonus is +1, meaning he is no greater than 8th level. Doesn't this make him two levels lower than the rest of the party?
A. Since everybody gains a level at the same time (more or less) in Comic 124 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0124.html), it seems everybody is the same level. Otherwise, they'd increase in level in staggered bits. So Comic 124 trumps Comic 34. And since we know the party level was 11 at the time, Elan's bardic bonus is higher than +1, notwithstanding what Roy says.

Q. In Comic 38 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html), Durkon tells Roy he's paralyzed because he was poisoned 17 times with Strength poison. Doesn't this mean Roy's Stength is 17?
A. No. First poison inflicts variable Ability Damage. Being poisoned 17 times would mean he lost dozens of Strengh points. Second, your Strength can never be reduced below 0, no matter how much you're poisoned. The number 17 was chosen for its funny. It cannot indicate Roy's Strength.

Q. Doesn't Comic 49 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html) indicate Vaarsuvius has Time Stop, Meteor Swarm and Wish in the spellbook?
A. No. Vaarsuvius was not even looking at the spellbook. It was likely an attempt to suggest the most outrageous spells for Zz'ditri's variant Fly spell. The evidence, at best, is inconclusive.

Q. Then why does Comic 49 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html) indicate Vaarsuvius has Vampiric Touch? That spell might even be in Vaarsuvius' barred school of necromancy!
A. Vaarsuvius mentions ths in between two spells be know Vaarsuvius possesses. Thus, Vaarsuvius was not kidding at the time. Even if Vaarsuvius can't cast necromancy, Vaarsuvius could hve had that spell before the upgrade and kept it in the spellbook afterwards.

Q. In Comic 58 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html), Belkar uses a scroll of Cure Serious Wounds, which requires him to have a Wisdom of 14. Since Vaarsuvius cast Owl's Wisdom on him (which boosts your Wisdom by 4), he must have a Wisdom of 10. Why do you have him at less?
A. That comic was trumped by the more recent Comic 475 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) in which Belkar admits to having an Ability score penalty to Profession checks. Since Wisdom is the Ability that modified Profession, Belkar cannot have a Wisdom above 9. So we are ignoring Comic 58 as one of those times where "funny trumps rules."

Q. Wait a minute. Cure Serious Wounds is only a third-level spell on the clerical spell list. And since it was Durkon's scroll and Durkon is a cleric, wouldn't that mean Belkar only needed a 13 Wisdom, which means a 9 Wisdom before Vaarsuvius cast Owl's Wisdom?
A. No. Scrolls have no class listed. You use the level of the spell on the caster's spell list. Cure Serious Wounds is a 4th level Ranger spell.

Q. In Comic 73 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0073.html), Thor acts pretty chaotically and he's listed as Chaotic Good in Deities and Demigods. Since clerics cannot be more than one step removed from their deity, how can Durkon be lawful?
A. The Thor in OOTS is not the Thor in Deities and Demigods. Thor is more likely Neutral Good with lots of Lawful and Chaotic characteristics. Either way, Durkon, is clearly Lawful Good.

Q. Where's Elan's coffee maker (Comic 81 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html)), espresto box (Comic 84 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html)), squirrel, paddleball game, lantern, roller skate or jam (Comic 206 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html))?
A. From Comic 471 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0471.html), Elan appears to have lost all of his equipment when Nale temporarily switched places with him. So only the equipment he has been seen with since his escape from prison in Comic 387 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html) will be listed.

Q. From Comic 127 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html), You use Vaarsuvius' statement that Elan can't use cantrips as evidence that Elan has under a 10 Intelligence. But Elan casts spells all the time.
A. In D&D, wizards use Intelligence to cast spells and require Intelligence 10 to cast cantrips. Bards use Charisma. Vaarsuvius is saying Elan doesn't have the Intelligence needed to cast cantrips as a Wizard.

Q. In Comic 170 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0170.html), Durkon gets a golden tankard. Why isn't that on his possessions?
A. It's too big for Durkon to carry, so we assume it was left behind. If it shows up again, it will be placed on the possessions list.

Q. In Comic 188 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html), doesn't Vaarsuvius demonstrate the skill Speak Language (draconic)?
A. Not necessarily. Vaarsuvius may also have ranks in Decipher Script (for which evidence has been found in one of the Dragon Magazine strips).

Q. In Comic 219 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0219.html), Durkon is fighting ogres. Why is this strip referenced as his bonus for fighting giants?
A. In D&D 3.5, ogres are of the "giant type", and dwarves (like Durkon) get a dodge bonus when fighting creatures of the giant type.

Q. In Comic 245 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0245.html), Vaarsuvius and Haley only manage to save one bag of treasure. Why do you still list Haley as having eight bags of holding?
A. The bag they rescued is not a bag of holding, but a regular sack of treasure. We know this because in Comic 130 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html) we see what a bag of holding looks like, and it doesn't look like the sack of treasure in Comic 245. Haley keeps her bags of holding on her person. It wouldn't have needed rescuing.

Q. In Comic 249 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0249.html), Belkar talks about Roy's "heavy armor". Why is he listed with only Medium armor?
A. In order for Roy carrying Durkon (as he does in Comic 5 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0005.html)) to make sense, Roy would need to be wearing nothing heavier than Medium armor. Otherwise, Roy runs no faster than Durkon. Thus, we assume Belkar is speaking descriptively about Roy's armor, in accordance with his Craft Disturbing Mental Images Feat.

Q. Doesn't Comic 599 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0599.html) demonstrate that Vaarsuvius can cast Overland Flight?
A. Quite probably. But until we get confirmation that Vaarsuvius flew farther than a 13-14th level wizard can fly using the Fly spell, we cannot state it with certainty.

Q. Doesn't Comic 616 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0616.html) demonstrate that Belkar has Improved Trip and Improved Disarm? Crystal never got an AoO on him, which should mean he has those feats.
A. Possibly. However, AoOs are not always shown in the comic. Crystal may have forgotten to use it, or may have missed and the Giant didn't bother to show it to us.

Q. Doesn't Comic 624 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html) demonstrate that Vaarsuvius has Bugsby's Grasping Hand, Bugsby's Flicking Finger and Bugsby's Expressive Single Digit?
A. No. Those are just humorous uses of the Grasping Hand spell.

Eloel

2009-09-23, 06:39 AM

Yay new thread!

RMS Oceanic

2009-09-23, 07:18 AM

Since Chrismith hasn't posted since December, I'll volunteer to take on the other characters.

Other characters

Stats for characters who aren't the Order of the Stick.

Team Evil

:redcloak: Redcloak
Lawful Evil, Goblin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html)Male, Cleric 15+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html)
Attributes:
Str ~8 (no evidence, racial)
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis 20+ (save DC for L7 spell is >21 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html))
Cha 12+ (repeated (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html) use (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html) of (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html) Rebuke Undead)
Feats (5+): Extend Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html), Craft Wonderous Item (helped Xykon create his phylactery (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html))
Skills (36+): Diplomacy (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html), Ranks in Knowledge (Chemistry) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html). +4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks.
Abilities: Bolster/Rebuke/Command Undead, two Domains (Destruction and Law (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html)), darkvision 60'.
Items: Monster Manual II, Book of Vile Darkness, Fiend Folio (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html), Backup Unholy symbol, Eye bandage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html), Crimson Mantle, spyglass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html).

:xykon: Xykon
Chaotic Evil, Human Male Lich, Sorcerer 27+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)
Attributes:
Str 14+ (Able to carry two goblins and an elf while flying (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html))
Dex ~10 (No Evidence)
Con n/a (undead)
Int ~15 (No Evidence, +5 from being venerable and becoming a lich)
Wis ~15 (No Evidence, +5 from being venerable and becoming a lich)
Cha 28+ (based on Start of Darkness events)
Feats (13+): Maximize Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html), Skill Focus (Spellcraft) and Epic Skill Focus (Spellcraft) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), Improved Spell Capacity x3 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) (Maximized Energy Drain is a 12th level spell), Epic Spellcasting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), some sort of crafting feat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html)
Skills (46+): Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html); +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks, Spellcraft 24+, Knowledge (Arcana) 24+ (Prereqs for Epic Spellcasting feat)
Abilities: Fear aura, paralyzing touch, turn resistance, damage reduction, immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks.
Items: Widescreen crystal ball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html), Teevo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html), crown (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html) that radiates evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html), headband (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html) likely belonging to Dorukan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html), Unspecified magic item that grants immunity to Fire damage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html).
SoD spoiler:
Also has (or had) a gem (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html) containing the souls of Dorukan and Lirian.
Spells Known: Animate Dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html), Cloister (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), Cloudkill (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html), Contingency (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Energy Drain (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html), Epic Mage Armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Finger of Death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0430.html), Ghostform (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0370.html), Greater Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html), Greater Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html), Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html), Mass Hold Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Meteor Swarm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html), Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html), Overland Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html), Ray of Frost (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html), Shatter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html), Soul Bind (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html), Either Stoneskin or Stoneshape (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Superb Dispelling (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), Symbol of Pain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html), Symbol of Insanity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html), Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html), Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html).

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Tsukiko.png Tsukiko
Evil, Human Female, Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html) 3+ / Cleric 3+ / Mystic Theurge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html) 6+
(minimum CL 9 for both divine and arcane spells)
Attributes:
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int 15+ (minimum to cast Teleport as a wizard)
Wis 15+ (minimum to cast Flame Strike as a cleric)
Cha ~10 (no evidence)
Feats (6+): Scribe scroll, Quicken Spell
Skills (42+): Knowledge (arcana) 6+, Knowledge (religion) 6+ (Requirements for Mystic Theurge)
Abilities: Rebuke/Command Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html) (Wishes she could rebuke Paladins like in First Edition), two unknown domains.
Items: Unholy Symbol, Xykon Plushie (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html).
Spells Known: Fly, Lightning Bolt, Shout (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0513.html), Dominate Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html), Fireball, Invisibility, Electric Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html) Fire Orb, Lesser Acid Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0519.html), Cold Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0522.html), Mind Fog (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html)

The Linear Guild

:nale: Nale
Lawful Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), Human Male, Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) 1+ - Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) 1+ - Sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) 6+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html)
Attributes:
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha 15+ (Minimum to cast sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html))
Feats (8): Unknown.
Skills (49+): Bluff
Abilities: Sneak attack +1d6 (or more), trapfinding
Items: Longsword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html)
Known Spells: Charm Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html), Expeditious Retreat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0067.html), Suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html), Prestidigitation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html). Nale claims (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) to specialize in Enchantment spells.

:sabine: Sabine
Evil Succubus, Outsider, Rogue 1+ (Stated in No Cure for the Paladin Blues)
Attributes:
Str =18 (carried Nale and Thog while flying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html))
Dex ~12 (No Evidence, Racial Modifiers)
Con ~12 (No Evidence, Racial Modifiers)
Int ~16 (No Evidence, Racial Modifiers)
Wis ~14 (No Evidence, Racial Modifiers)
Cha ~26 (No Evidence, Racial Modifiers)
Feats (5): Unknown
Skills (120+): Unknown
Abilities: Energy drain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), shape-shifting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html), DR against either cold iron or silver (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html) (or both? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0255.html)), plane shift 1/day
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html)Items: None

:thog: Thog
Chaotic Evil, Male Half-Orc, Fighter 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0043.html) - Barbarian (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html) 10
Attributes:
Str 14+ (able to carry (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3735368&postcount=425) Hilgya (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html) while flying, likely higher (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0396.html))
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int 8 or lower ("Int was his dump stat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html).")
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha ~8 (no evidence, racial)
Feats (7): 2 Fighter bonus feats
Skills (56+): Unknown
Abilities: Fast movement, rage 3/day, improved uncanny dodge, trap sense +3, DR 2/-, Darkvision, Orc Blood.
Items: Leprechaun suit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html).

Part-time Members

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Leeky.png Leeky Windstaff
Neutral Evil, Male Gnome, Druid 14+ (cast Firestorm and Heal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0359.html))
Attributes:
Str ~8 (no evidence, racial)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~12 (no evidence, racial)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis 17+ (Minimum to cast Fire Storm)
Cha ~10 (no evidence)
Feats (5): Leadership (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html)
Skills (66+): Unknown
Abilities: Low-Light Vision; +2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions; +1 DC for all saving throws against illusion spells cast; +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids; +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type; +2 racial bonus on Listen checks; +2 racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks; spell-Like abilities (CL 1; save DC 10 + Cha modifier + spell level): 1/day—speak with animals (burrowing mammal only, duration 1 minute), dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation; wild shape (4/day, large/tiny/plant); venom immunity; resist nature's lure; trackless step; woodland stride; wild empathy; nature sense; animal companion.
Items: Staff (properties unknown, broken by Durkon's thunderclap)

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1308/pompeypb9.jpg Pompey
Chaotic Evil, Male Half-Elf, Wizard (Conjurer) 4+
Attributes:
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int 12+ (Minimum to cast Summon Monster II (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0350.html))
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha ~10 (no evidence)
Feats (3): Scribe scroll, possibly Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html) and/or Silent Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html)
Skills (55+): Unknown
Abilities: Immune to sleep spells and similar magical effects; +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects; Low-Light Vision; +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks; +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks.
Items: Unknown
Spells Known: Animate Rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html), Summon Monster II, at least 5 touch-range buff spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0350.html) -- lowest-level possibilities are Mage Armor, Protection from Good, Protection from Law, Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance.

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/4913/yokyokbg4.jpg Yokyok (Deceased)

Possibly Lawful Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html), Male Kobold, Unknown Class (may include Duellist PrC)
Items: Rapier
This is probably all we'll ever know about Yokyok, since he was killed by a swarm of greedy adventurers before really demonstrating his abilities and his head made into a chip bowl by Belkar.

Hilgya
Female Dwarf, Cleric 7+
Hilgya is known to worship Loki, and one of her domains is Fire. The other is likely chaos.
Wis 14+ (Minimum to cast Restoration (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0074.html))
Items: Horned helment, armor, shield, holy symbol of Loki

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/drizzle.png Zz'dtri
Male Drow, Wizard 11+
Transmuter (Cast six Fly spells in one day), barred schools (two of: Conjuration, Enchantment, Illusion, Necromancy)
Int 16+ (Minimum to cast Flesh to Stone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html))
Feats: possibly Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapons: Pair of scimitars
Spells: Flesh to Stone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html), Fly (3.0 version) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html), Shield (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html), Wall of Ice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html). Unspecified attack spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html) characterized by green lightning.

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/9580/yikyikpy8.jpg Yikyik (Deceased)

Male Kobold, Ranger
Feats: Combat Reflexes

The Sapphire Guard

:miko: Miko Miyazaki (deceased)

Lawful Good, Human Female, Monk 2 / Fallen Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html) 12-14 (based on number of attacks per round)
Attributes:
Str 13+ (to wield Katana one-handed)
Dex 17+ (required for Improved 2-Weapon Fighting)
Con 12+ (no clear evidence, but has high damage capacity)
Int 10+ (not stupid, but no demonstration of high Int)
Wis 11+ (Minimum to cast Cure Light Wounds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291639#post291639))
Cha 14+ (effective Divine Grace and substantial Laying On Hands)
Feats (6-7): Two-Weapon Fighting, Stunning Fist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword/Katana), Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html), Cleave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html), Track (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html)
Skills (30+): Ride, Survival +1, Handle Animal (not demonstrated, but likely), Knowledge (the Planes) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html).
Abilities: Evasion, flurry of blows, Improved Unarmed Strike, (Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows). Unavailable Paladin abilities spoilered-out.

Aura of good, detect evil, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, divine health, turn undead, special mount (Windstriker), remove disease 2/week, smite evil 3/day, spells (1/1).

Items: Magic boots, cloak and armor (http://www.giantitp.com/WarAndXPs.html), Katana, Wakizashi, known to carry Cure potions.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a311/estelindis/hinjo.gif Hinjo
Lawful Good, Human Male, Paladin 11+ (appears to have 3 attacks/round (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html))
Attributes:
Str 10+ (no evidence)
Dex 10+ (no evidence)
Con 10+ (no clear evidence, though likely high)
Int 10+ (not stupid, but no demonstration of high Int)
Wis 12+ (has a good will save (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html), otherwise unknown)
Cha 12+ (Laying On Hands heals wounds)
Feats (4+): Unknown.
Skills (28+): Ride, Handle Animal (not demonstrated, but likely).
Abilities: Aura of good, detect evil, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, divine health, turn undead, special mount (Dire Wolf "Argent"), remove disease, smite evil , spells (?).
Items: Cold-iron katana, silver katana, magic boots, cloak and armor (http://www.giantitp.com/WarAndXPs.html).

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/O-Chul.pngO-Chul
Lawful Good, Human Male, Fighter/Paladin. Level unknown, but likely 140+ hit points (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4100390&postcount=126). Was lower level than Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html) prior to captivity.
Attributes:
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~23-27 (Has a Con in the mid-20's (http://www.giantitp.com/WarAndXPs.html))
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha ~10 (He admits that Cha is his dump stat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html))
Feats (4+): Unknown.
Skills (39+): Bluff 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html), Swim (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html),
Abilities: Aura of good, detect evil, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, divine health, turn undead, special mount (?), remove disease, smite evil, spells (?).
Items: None

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/lien.png Lien
Lawful Good, Human Female, Paladin 6+ (has a large shark mount (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0479.html)); lower level than Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html)
Attributes:
Str 13+ (Prequisite for cleave)
Dex 10+ (no evidence)
Con 10+ (no evidence)
Int 10+ (no evidence)
Wis 10+ (no evidence)
Cha 12+ (Laying On Hands heals wounds)
Feats (4+): Weapon Focus (Longspear), Power Attack, Cleave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html)
Skills (27+): Ride, Handle Animal (not demonstrated, but likely).
Abilities: Aura of good, detect evil, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, divine health, turn undead, special mount (Large Shark "Razor"), smite evil , spells (?).
Items: Longspear, magic boots, cloak and armor (http://www.giantitp.com/WarAndXPs.html).

Other Characters
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/celiasmiley.png Celia
Female Sylph (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html), 6+ HD (can cast Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html))
Cha 13+
Abilities: Casts sorcerer spells as a caster of a level equal to her HD (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0530.html), can detect magic auras (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html)
Spells known: Alter Self (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html)

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/julia.png Julia Greenhilt
True Neutral (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0343.html) Human Female, Wizard 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html)
Str ~10 (No evidence)
Dex ~10 (No evidence)
Con ~10 (No evidence)
Int 15+ (Minimum to cast sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html) from a scroll)
Wis ~10 (No evidence)
Cha ~10 (No evidence)
Feats (3): Scribe Scroll
Skills (24+): Unknown
Spells known: Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html)

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/9168/samrg8.png Samantha (Deceased)

Evil, Human Female, Sorcerer 12+ (Can cast at least 3 level 6 spells per day)
Str ~10 (No evidence)
Dex ~10 (No evidence)
Con ~10 (No evidence)
Int ~10 (No evidence)
Wis ~10 (No evidence)
Cha 20-21 (Sorcerer with high save DCs)
Feats (5): Maximize Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), possibly Spell Focus (Evocation) and Greater Spell Focus (Evocation) (her level 3 save DCs are "too high (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html)" for Haley); not Still Spell or Silent Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0169.html).
Skills (42+): Unknown
Spells known: Chain Lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), Fireball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), Fly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0160.html), Hold Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), Magic Missle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), Protection From Arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html)

Kurald Galain

2009-09-23, 07:35 AM

Since Chrismith hasn't posted since December, I'll volunteer to take on the other characters.

That's nice. I was considering doing the same, but then I really don't have time for that at the moment, so I'm glad you ninja'ed me.

RMS Oceanic

2009-09-23, 07:37 AM

That's nice. I was considering doing the same, but then I really don't have time for that at the moment, so I'm glad you ninja'ed me.

Glad to rescue you from being dragged deeper into the internet. :smallsmile:

I think I may have missed some of Xykon's spells, so if you spot anything, let me know.

Random832

2009-09-23, 10:08 AM

Gah, I was going to do that - I'd worked out a new format and everything. I was also going to improve the coverage of Sabine: there's no way those ~10s are valid, not with 2/2/2/6/4/16 racial bonuses. 5 feats is suspect, with 6RHD and no technical evidence given for more than one class level. Even assuming ECL15 as Haley's personal rival, that's only 9 character levels / 3 feats.

Here's my format test for Redcloak again
:redcloak: Redcloak, Lawful Evil Goblin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm) Male Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/Classes/cleric.htm) 15+ 457 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html)
Abilities: Str ~8, Dex ~12, Con ~10, Int ~10, Wis 20+, Cha 12+
- Wis: Save DC (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrowDifficultyClass) of 22+ on a 7th-level spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm) 456 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)
- Cha: Multiple rebuke uses. 459 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html) 461 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html) 462 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html)
Feats (5+): Extend Spell 451 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html), Craft Wondrous Item (helped Xykon create his phylacterySOD)
Skills (36+): DiplomacySOD. +4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride.
Special Abilities: Rebuke Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead), Destruction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#destructionDomain)/Law (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#lawDomain) domainsSOD, Darkvision to 60 ft.
Items: Unholy symbol / Xykon's Phylactery, Crimson Mantle, spyglass 423 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html)

I can redo everyone's in this format over the next week or so, but I don't want the effort to be wasted so I'd like to know if the people maintaining the stat blocks are going to use it. Anyone have any thoughts on it in general?

----

I wonder... could http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0528.html be interpreted as meaning that Haley now has the Conductivity [Spelltouched] feat? Since I'm pretty sure that's not in the spell description.

rainbowjo

2009-09-23, 11:14 AM

Since V does not include Haley in the people without Charisma wouldnt it be safe to assume she has at least 12?

I guess the thread isn't about assuming though, so never mind.

Kurald Galain

2009-09-23, 11:32 AM

I'd worked out a new format and everything.
Actually I must say your new format looks much clearer.

Since V does not include Haley in the people without Charisma wouldnt it be safe to assume she has at least 12?
Since V says so, it's not an assumption. Yes, V says that himself, Belkar and Durkon don't have any charisma, meaning a zero or negative modifier, and this means that Roy, Elan and Haley do have a positive mod.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html

Shale

2009-09-23, 11:34 AM

Kurald Galain

2009-09-23, 12:02 PM

All he says is that all the members of the party with Charisma are elsewhere. That would still be true if only Roy and Elan had appreciable CHA; all it proves is that Durkon, V and Belkar don't have much of it.

Except that a pedant like V would have used the word "both" rather than "all" if only two members had any charisma.

RMS Oceanic

2009-09-23, 12:03 PM

kenb215

2009-09-23, 12:08 PM

There's some code ([/sup]) in Roy's Strength field. Same thing for Redcloak under items. The link for Xykon's level needs to be updated.

RMS Oceanic

2009-09-23, 12:22 PM

I've updated Xykon's level link, corrected Redcloak's items and updated Sabine's stats.

I'm also going to make the assumption that the Linear Guild were stripped of everything when they were imprisoned, and now have nothing left except what they acquired in their escape.

Grey Watcher

2009-09-23, 12:23 PM

O-Chul's entry still lists him as a POW. Though he doesn't appear to have acquired any new possessions beyond an outfit of (apparently) ordinary clothing, he's not a POW anymore, at least.

Oh, and should the list of Xykon's spells be added to Roy's possessions?

Kurald Galain

2009-09-23, 12:36 PM

Spells, Magic Items and Other Quandries

In this section we attempt to flesh out homebrew features that have featured in Order of the Stick.
I disagree that homebrew belongs in the geekery thread.

Everything else in this thread is based upon factual statements from the comic, and upon RAW. On the other hand, we have no idea how exactly e.g. Cloister and Familicide are worded mechanically, and homebrew by definition isn't RAW. There's too many assumptions in those spell descriptions.

Wrecan

2009-09-23, 12:47 PM

There's some code ([/sup]) in Roy's Strength field. It's Fixed!

RMS Oceanic

2009-09-24, 08:31 AM

I disagree that homebrew belongs in the geekery thread.

Everything else in this thread is based upon factual statements from the comic, and upon RAW. On the other hand, we have no idea how exactly e.g. Cloister and Familicide are worded mechanically, and homebrew by definition isn't RAW. There's too many assumptions in those spell descriptions.

Yeah, I guess you're right, so I've scrubbed it.

Hey Wrecan, wasn't there supposed to be an entry on Blackwing somewhere?

Olorin Maia

2009-09-24, 09:23 AM

Hey RMS Oceanic, could you change the format of Tsukiko's bio? For the no evidence stats you use +, where everywhere else you use ~. Thanks, just bothering me.

Lvl45DM!

2009-09-24, 10:03 AM

call me an idiot but im missing how belkar has 3+ magic daggers

Godskook

2009-09-24, 10:16 AM

call me an idiot but im missing how belkar has 3+ magic daggers

He throws them, and yet still has some for fighting? I've personally never counted his daggers in said strips, but I'm guessing that's where the figure comes from.

Lvl45DM!

2009-09-24, 10:21 AM

He throws them in 4th last panel while hes sexually assaulting...i mean kissing the bard chick
he picks them up 3rd last panel we see him reaching for them!!
and then next strip he throws one dagger then fights with dagger/moonshine combo and dagger/shortsword combo...till he picks his dagger up again!!!
2 magic daggers

Kurald Galain

2009-09-24, 10:53 AM

Just for a bit of geekery -

Can we infer Redcloak's strength from the fact that he can drag, but not carry, a mostly-naked O-Chul? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html

Also regarding Redcloak, he possesses a number of D&D rulebooks (as shown when he animates the Huecuva), speaks Goblin, has ranks in Knowledge (Chemistry) since anything that's not "common knowledge" requires you to be trained, and we know from SOD that he doesn't age (as an effect from wearing the Mantle). Finally, "Craft Wonderous Item" is misspelled. Oh yeah, and we know from SOD that Redcloak isn't his real name.

Xykon - it may be "likely" that his int and wis started at 8 or 9 (in fact I would assume both lower), but I don't believe there's been any proof of that, so perhaps it would be better to list both as "~10 (no evidence)", with the +5 for age etc. Xykon also possesses Serini's diary, and he is totally going to blast you for listing some goblin higher in Team Evil than him :smallbiggrin:

Tsukiko is "assumed not to be a sorcerer", but didn't we know for sure by now that she was a wizard? Also, she mentions that if this were 1st edition, she'd turn Thanh, which means that she's a cleric (and not just "assumedly"). She also possesses an (un)holy symbol, since e.g. Flame Strike requires one. Finally, we can't assume that she has an Int 15, because it's possible that she has the Travel domain and casts teleport from there.

Morty

2009-09-24, 10:57 AM

Mc. Lovin'

2009-09-24, 11:05 AM

call me an idiot but im missing how belkar has 3+ magic daggers

There was once an art error which had him pictured with 3 daggers in the same panel

RMS Oceanic

2009-09-25, 03:48 AM

This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html) strip implies that Tsukiko is a wizard, as a sorcerer would have a harder time using spells she "looked up", unless she gained a level since her last battle with Haley.

Tsukiko has already been confirmed as a Wizard by her use of the Quicken Spell feat, which Sorcerors cannot avail of in core.

Kurald Galain

2009-09-25, 06:34 AM

And some more geekery...

For Thog, his intelligence is listed as 8. However, 8 is the average intelligence for a half-orc, so would be its value for "no evidence plus racials". Since a dump stat must be below average or it wouldn't be a dump, we know that his int is less than 8.

Why is Thog assumed to be level 12? On the one hand, I would assume his level to equal that of the Order of the Stick. On the other hand, we've had no evidence of the levels of the Linear Guild. I find it strange that Thog's level is stated as 12, Sabine's as 1+, and Nale's as 8+. In related issue, if Sabine's level is 1+, how come she has 5 feats? If Nale's level is 8+, how come he has 8 feats? And shouldn't Nale, like Thog, have a fighter bonus feat? Finally, how do we know Sabine's strength is exactly 18, instead of at least 18?

Since Sabine is a rogue, she has the ability Sneak Attackand Trapfinding.

For Hinjo, I'm not sure why his Con and Int scores offer speculation that he "likely" has a high con and is "not stupid". We have proof for neither. Furthermore, we don't actually know that Hinjo has "a good will save" (which is offered as "proof" for his wisdom score) - first, he could have rolled well; and second, he also adds his charisma to his will save anyway. So we don't really know anything about Hinjo's Con, Int and Wis. We also don't know that he has Handle Animal, which is "not demonstrated but likely". I mean, Hinjo also likely has diplomacy skill, a prestige class, and an armor +2, but none of that is demonstrated either.

For O-Chul, the standard paladin abilities are listed. However, we don't know if he has more than one paladin level - he could e.g. be a fighter 10 / paladin 1. We haven't seen him use e.g. divine grace, so it's not a given that he can do that. Also, the same thing as for Thog applies to O-Chul: if charisma is his dump stat, it must be less than average, thus less than 10.

For Lien, as with Hinjo, her "not demonstrated but likely" handle animal skill is not evidenced in the comic.

Jagos

2009-09-25, 06:45 AM

Tsukiko has already been confirmed as a Wizard by her use of the Quicken Spell feat, which Sorcerors cannot avail of in core.

I was under the impression she's a Mystic Theurge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/mysticTheurge.htm)

Random832

2009-09-25, 07:40 AM

Tsukiko has already been confirmed as a Wizard by her use of the Quicken Spell feat, which Sorcerors cannot avail of in core.

Also, the line "I go to bed with more spells prepared than you start the day with (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html)" strongly implies both sides are non-spontaneous casters. And Mind Fog is an arcane spell.

I was under the impression she's a Mystic Theurge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/mysticTheurge.htm)

Well, yeah, the question is what her base classes are.

RMS Oceanic

2009-09-25, 08:08 AM

I was under the impression she's a Mystic Theurge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/mysticTheurge.htm)

Yes, but she quickens some of her Orb spells. Orb spells are Wiz/Sor spells, so she can't be casting them from her Cleric slots. Since she can quicken them in the first place, something Sorcerers can't do in a beneficial manner.

Kurald Galain

2009-09-25, 08:27 AM

I was under the impression she's a Mystic Theurge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/mysticTheurge.htm)
Well, yeah. But the mystic theurge prestige class can be entered as e.g. a wizard/cleric, or a sorcerer/druid, or perhaps a beguiler/favored soul. I believe the comic has indicated Tsukiko it is the former, but her stat block does not reflect that.

RMS Oceanic

2009-09-25, 08:35 AM

Well, yeah. But the mystic theurge prestige class can be entered as e.g. a wizard/cleric, or a sorcerer/druid, or perhaps a beguiler/favored soul. I believe the comic has indicated Tsukiko it is the former, but her stat block does not reflect that.

Her stat block doesn't reflect that? I'm running on the assumption that she's a Wizard/Cleric. Note that her Int and Wis are considered to be her casting stats.

Kurald Galain

2009-09-25, 08:45 AM

Her stat block doesn't reflect that? I'm running on the assumption that she's a Wizard/Cleric. Note that her Int and Wis are considered to be her casting stats.
Well, it does now. But earlier it still said "assumed not to be a Sorcerer or Favored Soul".

Could you check my previous three posts? I believe there are some other details that may warrant adding or changing. Thanks!

Wrecan

2009-09-25, 10:48 AM

I added Blackwing's stats!

Kurald Galain

2009-09-25, 11:07 AM

I added Blackwing's stats!

Cool!

I just realized that this means Vaarsuvius gains +3 to all appraisal checks. Should that be added too?

Zolkabro

2009-09-25, 11:45 AM

:belkar:Belkar Bitterleaf
Chaotic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0230.html) Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html), Halfling (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0021.html) Male (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0140.html) Ranger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0022.html) ≥11*/Barbarian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0132.html) ≥1* (character level ≥13 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html))
Attributes (19 pt buy min):
Str ≥14 ("jump... exceeded movement..." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html)*)
Dex ≥15 (to use Two-Weapon Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html))
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10
Wis ≤9 ("I have an ... ability score penalty" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0475.html) in Profession skill checks)
Cha ≤10 (V includes him in those w/out any Cha (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0312.html))
Feats (10): Craft Disturbing Mental Image (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0249.html), EnduranceB, Greater Two-Weapon FightingB, Improved Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0325.html), Improved Two-Weapon FightingB, TrackB (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0022.html), Power Attack, Two-Weapon FightingB, Two-Weapon Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html)...
Skills (89): Balance ≥5 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0279.html), Climb (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0230.html), Craft (Trapmaking) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0270.html), Hide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0468.html) (“a good Hide skill”) (+4), Intimidate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0450.html) (sufficient to intimidate cowardly eye of fear and flame), Jump (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0019.html), Listen 0 (+2), Move Silently (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0270.html) (“High”) (+2), Profession (gourmet chef) 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html), Search 0, Sense Motive 0, Speak languageB (halfling), Spot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0119.html) 0, Survival (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0213.html) 0.
Abilities: +1 saves, +1 thrown weapons, +2 v fear, Animal companion, Evasion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0469.html), Fast movement, Favored class (rogue), Favored enemy x3 (probably humanoid (reptilian), humanoid (human) and one other), Rage, Small size, Swift tracker, Wild empathy, Woodland stride
Items: Chef's Hat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html), Cloak (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0107.html), 3 or more small magical daggers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html), red chalk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html), Bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html), lead sheet (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0281.html), Mama Bitterleaf's Secret +2 Circumstance Bonus Ingredient (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html), Mr. Scruffy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0535.html), Ring of Jumpng +20 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0130.html), stilts, Sapphire guard disguise (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0294.html), string (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html)...

It says here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html) that Belkar has the Wisdom of a lemming. Isn't that a lot less than 9?

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/6766/familierbn5.pngBlackwing
True Neutral Male Tiny Magical Beast (Raven), 14 HD (1/2 of V's hp)
Attributes:
Str 1 (raven)
Dex 15 (raven)
Con 10 (raven)
Int 12 (raven, 14th level wizard's familiar)
Wis 14 (raven)
Cha 6 (raven)
Feats: Alertness (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html), Weapon FinesseB
Skills (Blackwing uses V's skill ranks, unless Blackwing's ranks are higher): Concentration, Craft (Alchemy), Knowledge (Arcane), Listen +5, Speak language (Common, Elven), Spellcraft, Spot +7
Abilities: Deliver touch spells, empathic link, improved evasion, low-light vision, share spells, speak with master, speak with birds, spell resistance 19, +7 to natural armor
Items: bauble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html), and tiny sombrero, fake beard and mustache (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html)

V has 18 intelligence, shouldn't Blackwing have 18 as well?

Shale

2009-09-25, 11:52 AM

Wild animals actually have pretty decent Wisdom. And Owl's Wisdom isn't a large enough boost to allow a Ranger to cast Cure Critical Wounds if he's starting from the low single digits.

Kurald Galain

2009-09-25, 11:55 AM

It says here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html) that Belkar has the Wisdom of a lemming. Isn't that a lot less than 9?

No. Animals tend to have a wisdom of about 9 - 12. The sub-joke is that Vaarsuvius doesn't have ranks in Knowledge: Nature (and has quite the tendency of pretending to be expert even on topics he really doesn't know anything about).

Nine base wisdom plus four from the Owl spell is exactly equal to the thirteen wisdom required to cast that Cure spell from Durkon's scroll. The math works :smallcool:

Random832

2009-09-25, 02:32 PM

Actually I must say your new format looks much clearer.

Thank you. I might convert some of the other stat blocks to this format this weekend, but I want to know if they'd be used by Wrecan and RMSO before I spend that time

The two main things I had in mind were providing links to rules in addition to links to evidence in the comic, and not taking so much space for attribute scores that there's no real information about.

hamishspence

2009-09-25, 02:43 PM

Nine base wisdom plus four from the Owl spell is exactly equal to the thirteen wisdom required to cast that Cure spell from Durkon's scroll. The math works :smallcool:

I'm inclined to agree, though there is that theory that regardless of whether its a cleric scroll or not, a ranger must have the Wisdom to cast it as if it was one of his own spells.

I'm not keen on that theory though- it seems like making things unneccessarily hard. If the caster level is low (3, not 4), the difficulty of casting it should be low too (stat 13, not 14)

Kaytara

2009-09-25, 02:51 PM

No. Animals tend to have a wisdom of about 9 - 12. The sub-joke is that Vaarsuvius doesn't have ranks in Knowledge: Nature (and has quite the tendency of pretending to be expert even on topics he really doesn't know anything about).

Eh, I really don't think that was supposed to be V demonstrating his knowledge on anything. Him comparing Belkar's mental faculties to something ridiculously inadequate is almost a running gag. Wisdom score of a lemming, mental acuity of a table, sensory acuity of loose gravel.... It's obvious those are all exaggerations and Belkar isn't quite as bad in any of those things, but that's how insults are. :D

Fitzclowningham

2009-09-25, 04:01 PM

I know this won't be seen as conclusive, but this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html) leads me very strongly to believe Mr. Scruffy is Belkar's animal companion. Belkar says "get the caster", and Mr. Scruffy does. You can't train a normal cat, and they don't understand you when you speak to them. Normal cats don't know what casters are, and run for cover when humans make a lot of noise/get violent. But Scruffy's made of sterner stuff, and Belkar has no trouble communicating with him. Unless D&D cats are very different from real-world cats, that sequence of events would have been impossible for an unenhanced cat.

RMS Oceanic

2009-09-25, 04:27 PM

Thank you. I might convert some of the other stat blocks to this format this weekend, but I want to know if they'd be used by Wrecan and RMSO before I spend that time

The two main things I had in mind were providing links to rules in addition to links to evidence in the comic, and not taking so much space for attribute scores that there's no real information about.

Go ahead. I already said I liked your format, so if you want to style it up for the "Others", by all means please do so.

I know this won't be seen as conclusive, but this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html) leads me very strongly to believe Mr. Scruffy is Belkar's animal companion. Belkar says "get the caster", and Mr. Scruffy does. You can't train a normal cat, and they don't understand you when you speak to them. Normal cats don't know what casters are, and run for cover when humans make a lot of noise/get violent. But Scruffy's made of sterner stuff, and Belkar has no trouble communicating with him. Unless D&D cats are very different from real-world cats, that sequence of events would have been impossible for an unenhanced cat.

The status of Mr Scruffy is in the same category as V's possession of Overland Flight: It looks almost certain, but we still have to wait on actual evidence one way or the other before we can enter it.

Come to think of it, Wrecan, how do you know those boots Haley had dyed are the boots of speed? I agree they almost certainly are, but shouldn't we still wait on confirmation?

Wrecan

2009-09-25, 04:55 PM

Come to think of it, Wrecan, how do you know those boots Haley had dyed are the boots of speed? I agree they almost certainly are, but shouldn't we still wait on confirmation?
Now that's first rate geekery! I agree.

GreatWyrmGold

2009-09-25, 06:50 PM

Is there something about V failing to overcome the SR that makes you put her/his level at 14?

Shale

2009-09-25, 07:03 PM

It's the fact that s/he has no eighth-level spell slots. 14 is the only level that has all the feats/slots V has demonstrated but only casts spells up to seventh level.

Zevox

2009-09-25, 07:10 PM

You can't train a normal cat,
Sure you can. The Handle Animal skill lets you train any animal. Hell, even some intelligent magical beasts (things like Pegasi have it mentioned in their monster entries that they need to be trained to bear a rider in combat).

Zevox

GreatWyrmGold

2009-09-25, 07:36 PM

It's the fact that s/he has no eighth-level spell slots. 14 is the only level that has all the feats/slots V has demonstrated but only casts spells up to seventh level.

Ah. 10 character rule

GreatWyrmGold

2009-09-25, 07:59 PM

You forgot to add Cryst (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html)al's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html) [url=http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0607.html]+4 dagger] to Haley's gear.

Also, since the asking price for the armor was 25,000 gp, I think it was +5 or equivilant armor.

Forbiddenwar

2009-09-25, 08:31 PM

Oh yeah, and we know from SOD that Redcloak isn't his real name.

From the same book we know Xykon isn't his real name either.

And some more geekery...

For Thog, his intelligence is listed as 8. However, 8 is the average intelligence for a half-orc, so would be its value for "no evidence plus racials". Since a dump stat must be below average or it wouldn't be a dump, we know that his int is less than 8.

Also, the same thing as for Thog applies to O-Chul: if charisma is his dump stat, it must be less than average, thus less than 10.

Why does dump stat must mean less than 10. Dump stat means lowest stat. You can have a dump stat of 17 if all your other stats were 18. All we can tell is that the "dump stat" must be the lowest stat.

So, thog Int=Lowest generated-2(racial)
and Ochul Cha=Lowest generated

Wrecan

2009-09-25, 09:53 PM

You forgot to add Cryst (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html)al's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html)
Haley sold that to get 200,000 gp to ransom her father -- before learning Tyrania no longer existed.

cZak

2009-09-26, 01:06 AM

Wasn't Nale a better combatant than Elan before he took the Dashing Swordsman PrC? Makes me think Nale would have more levels in fighter or something to have a better BAB than Elan's bard levels at the time.

Fools are made to suffer, not to be suffered

Kish

2009-09-26, 01:08 AM

Wasn't Nale a better combatant than Elan before he took the Dashing Swordsman PrC?
Nale thought so, but his beliefs have little relationship to reality. The in-comic evidence shows only that they were close to evenly matched before the Dashing Swordsman class, and Elan was easily superior after it.

Jagos

2009-09-26, 05:30 AM

Go ahead. I already said I liked your format, so if you want to style it up for the "Others", by all means please do so.

The status of Mr Scruffy is in the same category as V's possession of Overland Flight: It looks almost certain, but we still have to wait on actual evidence one way or the other before we can enter it.

Come to think of it, Wrecan, how do you know those boots Haley had dyed are the boots of speed? I agree they almost certainly are, but shouldn't we still wait on confirmation?

Guys, I almost agree but come on, it's the same boots as when she first met Crystal (http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/File:Haleycrystal.png). That's kinda been the running gag for the longest. She has them but they're an UGLY color.

Mc. Lovin'

2009-09-26, 09:12 AM

Come to think of it, Wrecan, how do you know those boots Haley had dyed are the boots of speed? I agree they almost certainly are, but shouldn't we still wait on confirmation?

I think that's a bit too OCD, she said she was getting her boots of speed dyed to match with her top, and is now seen wearing boots the same colour as her new top (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0681.html)

I really don't see why that isn't enough evidence, she didnt have any reason to change into different boots of exactly the same colour of her speed boots

GreatWyrmGold

2009-09-26, 04:45 PM

Haley sold that to get 200,000 gp to ransom her father -- before learning Tyrania no longer existed.

Well...I guess plot points have nothing on different plot points+GP.

Random832

2009-09-27, 12:52 AM

Thunderbuckets

2009-09-27, 01:41 AM

Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but in comic 485 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html), Eugene states that Roy was "the highest level Good character on the field." Now, at that point in the OOTS chronology, we can nail Elan — also a Good character — down as being 13th level. Assuming Eugene knows what he's talking about, which is likely, given how Roy doesn't dispute the claim and Eugene has epic-styled scrying capabilities to look into things like this, then I'd like to posit that Roy was a minimum of level 14 during the Azure City battle. Perhaps due to an XP imbalance, perhaps due to slight number differences between Roy's and the rest of the Order's totals.

...Which means that now, he would be a minimum of level 13, after being brought back to life.

RMS Oceanic

2009-09-27, 02:11 AM

I was working on the new format for Team Evil - what was our evidence on Xykon's level again?

Also, do we know for certain either that he was over 70 (Venerable age category) before becoming a Lich, or that age categories continue to advance after becoming one?

Also I am looking for the strip where it was explicitly stated that the headband is the focus for the cloister spell.

He can cast epic spells, so he's definately Level 21 or higher. In 652 he casts Maximized Energy Drain, a 12th Level Spell. To have 12th Level Spell slots to cast the spell, he needs to take the feat Improved Spell Capacity three times. The minimum level he needs to be to have enough Post level 20 feats to take them is 26.

And while we're on the subject, I know there are options that allow him to have a lower level, like the Sudden Metamagic Feats, but they're not in core. My stuff will only accept explainations that come from the SRD unles it's specifically stated otherwise.

As for his age, in Start of Darkness, a Human Xykon has a conversation with Redcloak in which he says he's 77 at the time.

There is no direct evidence that Dorukan's Headband is the focus for Cloister. Most people infer that this is the case because he was holding it as he casts the spell in 484.

Joerg

2009-09-27, 03:37 AM

There is no direct evidence that Dorukan's Headband is the focus for Cloister. Most people infer that this is the case because he was holding it as he casts the spell in 484.

Xykon himself says so in 532 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html). In the same strip, we see Dorukan using it for Cloister.

Forbiddenwar

2009-09-27, 04:31 AM

He can cast epic spells, so he's definately Level 21 or higher. In 652 he casts Maximized Energy Drain, a 12th Level Spell. To have 12th Level Spell slots to cast the spell, he needs to take the feat Improved Spell Capacity three times. The minimum level he needs to be to have enough Post level 20 feats to take them is 26.

And while we're on the subject, I know there are options that allow him to have a lower level, like the Sudden Metamagic Feats, but they're not in core. My stuff will only accept explainations that come from the SRD unles it's specifically stated otherwise.

Just playing devil's advocate here, What about this?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicMaximize
It's from the d20 and works. There is now way to determine that he doesn't have a few of these rods. Unless Xykon or Giant flat out state that he doesn't.

Is there any other evidence from d20, demonstrating a level higher than 21?

Another question, Are we willing to put down Stoneskin or Stoneshape (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html) under Xykon's spells? They are the only 4th level spells in the phb that start with "Ston"

Edit: Yet another question (sorry can't sleep) this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291639#post291639)shows giant stating that Miko has 5 attacks per round. Since she can't flurry of bows with a sword, doesn't that make her epic level? Either that or 17 or higher with a weapon of speed.

RMS Oceanic

2009-09-27, 06:42 AM

Just playing devil's advocate here, What about this?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicMaximize
It's from the d20 and works. There is now way to determine that he doesn't have a few of these rods. Unless Xykon or Giant flat out state that he doesn't.

I don't think "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is the right way to think. Sure, there's no evidence that he doesn't have that magic item, but thinking this way leads to stuff like "there's no evidence he doesn't have" for other ability-explaining items. I am taking the "assume he doesn't have it unless he says he does" approach for these things. If he later reveals he has a Maximize Rod, then I'll happily lower his assumed level.

Another question, Are we willing to put down Stoneskin or Stoneshape (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html) under Xykon's spells? They are the only 4th level spells in the phb that start with "Ston"

Sure. Following the SRD only approach, that makes sense.

Edit: Yet another question (sorry can't sleep) this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291639#post291639)shows giant stating that Miko has 5 attacks per round. Since she can't flurry of bows with a sword, doesn't that make her epic level? Either that or 17 or higher with a weapon of speed.

She has five attacks because she was attacking with both a Katana and a Wazikishi, i.e. Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two Weapon Fighting.

Forbiddenwar

2009-09-27, 06:55 AM

She has five attacks because she was attacking with both a Katana and a Wazikishi, i.e. Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two Weapon Fighting.

whoops sorry:smallredface:

Zolkabro

2009-09-27, 10:11 AM

Haley sold that to get 200,000 gp to ransom her father -- before learning Tyrania no longer existed.

Haley sold the jewelry. She kept the knife.

RMS Oceanic

2009-09-27, 11:04 AM

Haley sold the jewelry. She kept the knife.

Her exact words is that she "sold the loot". 'Loot' can be interpreted a number of different ways.

Wrecan

2009-09-27, 03:03 PM

Until we see that dagger again, "loot" refers to what you "loot" from fallen enemies, and that would include the dagger.

Dark Matter

2009-09-27, 08:02 PM

Xykon's Spellcraft is listed as 24+.

He can't cast Superb Dispelling or Epic Mage Armor if it's that low, the DC for Superb Dispelling is 59, for EMA its 46. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/superbDispelling.htm

Granted, this is after feats and such (are there any core items that pump SC?) but we can probably assume he has a Spellcraft of 49 (with taking 10), or at the very least he MUST have a 39 (natural 20... no matter how silly it is to have an epic spell that only works one in 20).

Jagos

2009-09-27, 09:07 PM

Until we see that dagger again, "loot" refers to what you "loot" from fallen enemies, and that would include the dagger.

Though it has been implied that she keeps the knife...

Link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html)

The main magic items she was selling were the earrings that she didn't keep. A huge thing about the last 600+ strips has been the fact that Haley didn't have a melee weapon. It makes no sense to sell the only one she has that's +4 at the least.

RMS Oceanic

2009-09-28, 06:05 AM

Though it has been implied that she keeps the knife...

Link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html)

The main magic items she was selling were the earrings that she didn't keep. A huge thing about the last 600+ strips has been the fact that Haley didn't have a melee weapon. It makes no sense to sell the only one she has that's +4 at the least.

It makes tactical sense to keep it, but remember what she was selling the stuff for: Ransom Money. A +4 weapon is worth at least 32,000 GP, which is 16% of the money she needs to rescue her father, which is quite a long way towards earning it.

As for the spellcraft stuff, it's tricky. I mean, if you attempt to flesh out Cloister, which is a validly constructed Epic Spell in the rules, I think its Spellcraft DC was something like 200 before you applied any mitigating factors. I don't believe either Xykon or Dorukan were level 170+, so either there is some sort of trick to getting a doubleplus big spellcraft bonus, or Rich ignores the spellcraft DC in the first place.

Dark Matter

2009-09-28, 11:01 AM

As for the spellcraft stuff, it's tricky. I mean, if you attempt to flesh out Cloister, which is a validly constructed Epic Spell in the rules, I think its Spellcraft DC was something like 200 before you applied any mitigating factors. I don't believe either Xykon or Dorukan were level 170+, so either there is some sort of trick to getting a doubleplus big spellcraft bonus, or Rich ignores the spellcraft DC in the first place.We don't know how Cloister is built, we don't know what mitigating factors there are, but it is possible (even easy) for Xykon to have a Spellcraft that high without hand waving it.

To get DC 59:

Ranks: Level +3
Knowledge (arcana) synergy: +2
Feat: Skill Focus (spellcraft): +3
Feat: Magical Aptitude: +2
Epic Skill Focus (spellcraft): +10
Taking 10: +10
Int of 14 (see first page of this thread): +2

Just from that, we get "Level +32", which would make him level 27. And note that this is before we worry about some item that enhances spell check (although I'm not sure there are any core ones) and we also have some evidence that suggests his level is even higher than this.

But any way you want to slice it, he's running around casting a spell that has a Spellcheck of 59. That means his spell craft is AT LEAST 39, and is almost certainly 49 (it makes no sense that X getting 'serious' means that he starts casting spells that only function once in a blue moon).

We can quibble about how he gets up there, for starters his Int might be higher than 14, but no matter how he gets a SC of 49+, that's what he's done.

Lvl45DM!

2009-09-28, 11:13 AM

I have no idea about these kinda rules
but doesnt that headband of xykons bypass the need for things like spellcraft DC?

PsyBlade

2009-09-28, 11:57 AM

If it does, it probably only does that for specific spells. Either the spells were made so that the headband negates the check, or the headband was made so that it would do that for specific spells. Probably both ways. Makes sense both in Game Rules and Real Life Rules.

Kish

2009-09-28, 12:25 PM

I have no idea about these kinda rules
but doesnt that headband of xykons bypass the need for things like spellcraft DC?
There is no indication of that.

Dark Matter

2009-09-28, 04:35 PM

There is no indication of that.I think Xykon said once the headband might be the focus for a powerful spell... but that's just another reason why we don't want to bring Cloister into the discussion (or the headband for that matter).

Similarly, it's very hard to see how he *doesn't* have a +10 bonus to SpellCraft in there somewhere, probably from the Epic Skill Focus feat (raising his level)... but he could have the Epic Spellcaster Rod (although if he can craft Epic Rods then he has to be level 29 anyway). http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#craftEpicRod

Or in short, I don't think he's buildable below level 27. He needs another epic feat to have a spellcraft rating high enough to cast the epic spells he's casting.

Granted, there are other ways to get there, but all of them require high caster levels as well.

RMS Oceanic

2009-09-28, 04:45 PM

I don't know how he does it, but assuming he follows the rules for use of Spellcraft, I think it makes sense that Xykon has some source that grants him a not-inconsiderable bonus to his spellcraft.

The only question now is what is it? I guess if I follow my own rules, we should assume he acquired it from the Feat rather than the Magic Item unless we learn otherwise, so that's my ruling.

This also means Xykon's minimum level just rose by 1, to give him the extra epic feat slot needed for it.

Dark Matter

2009-09-29, 07:06 PM

Thank you, obviously I agree with that.

And just to be clear, I think he's higher than 27. Maybe even a lot higher. To be 27 he has to be min-maxed for Spell-Craft AND we have to have seen all his epic feats. Given the lack of optimization of these guys, I think that's unlikely.

Forbiddenwar

2009-09-29, 09:53 PM

don't know if it has been brought up before but in SOD

Xykon casts at least 6 level 9 spells that we know of in a row. A meteor storm and 5 energy drains. He then learns cloister. All before the first comic strip. The puts his level at least 24 (2 epic feats), right? His fight from most encounters in the strip won't give him much experience, but he may have gotten experience from Soon and an encounter in the bonus strips in Paladin Blues.
Sorry if this doesn't add to any of our information, I just realized that this was a pointless moment. But thinking of his minimum level, before the very first comic strip makes me shiver. How does Roy stand a chance? (Don't answer, I know it is off topic. it was a rhetorical question)

RMS Oceanic

2009-09-30, 01:31 AM

Dark Matter

2009-09-30, 08:03 AM

Current information brings that 28 Chr into question.

He has 12th level spell slots and he can burn higher level slots to use lower level spells. So he could cast 9 level 9 spells in a row just from that (his 6 normal and 10th, 11th, and 12th).

Granted, he probably has a Chr that high from how manipulative and impressive he is. Also granted, as a Sorc he *should* have a Chr that high. However what we can actually prove is he has a Chr high enough to cast 12th level spells, and that's 22.

Lvl45DM!

2009-09-30, 09:46 AM

I just realized that me disproving Belkars 3 or more magic daggers was totally ignored!!

Allan Surgite

2009-09-30, 10:28 AM

Fine, I'll answer it.

Check the fourth-to-last panel. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html) The one where Belkar kills Blondie by throwing two daggers at him. What's that under his arm~?

Plus, try reading some of the comments after your question; it was answered on page one.

In other news; fascinating stuff, guys~! ;3

Lvl45DM!

2009-09-30, 10:54 AM

Woops didnt see Mclovins comment

Trixie

2009-10-01, 12:35 PM

So, how much damage was that worth? :smalltongue:

Vargtass

2009-10-01, 01:44 PM

Geekery to claim we have evidence for Mr Scruffy being Belkar's Animal Companion:

Belkar has given Mr Scruffy orders (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0682.html) that have been obeyed. While this may be accomplished by using the Handle Animal skill, it has been clearly shown in the bonus material of Dungeon Crawlin' Fools that Belkar can't use this skill.

I would trace Belkar's adoption of Mr Scruffy as Animal Companion to this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0535.html), where he says "It's just you and me now, halfling and cat."

Wrecan

2009-10-01, 03:35 PM

Does Dungeon Crawlin' Fools actually say Belkar is not trained in Handle Animal? If so, since that is a trained only skill, then, yes, this would be proof positive of Mr. Scruffy's animal companion status (unless Belkar has gained ranks in that since Dungeon Crawlin' Fools).

hamishspence

2009-10-01, 03:50 PM

Which bonus strip was that?

Vargtass

2009-10-02, 03:23 AM

pjackson

2009-10-02, 04:01 AM

And while we're on the subject, I know there are options that allow him to have a lower level, like the Sudden Metamagic Feats, but they're not in core. My stuff will only accept explainations that come from the SRD unles it's specifically stated otherwise.

IMO that is a rather silly restriction given that we know that the OotS world is not restricted to SRD. Non-core books have even appeared in the strip.

RMS Oceanic

2009-10-02, 04:08 AM

The bonus strip is about Belkar trying to teach his wiener dog tricks, after Haley explains to him that it needs to be trained in order to follow orders. That he did not know that he had to do this leads me to believe he does not have any ranks in Handle Animal. Also, the result of his "check"was that the dog did something Belkar wished the dog could teach him.

I do not have my copy at work, so can't give you the exact number.

I believe it was strip 150c, in No Cure for the Paladin Blues.

IMO that is a rather silly restriction given that we know that the OotS world is not restricted to SRD. Non-core books have even appeared in the strip.

Judging by the incident with the lawyers and the Mind Fla Psionic Danger, I suspect non-Core stuff is the exception rather than the rule. In any case, it's still how I'm doing this.

Kurald Galain

2009-10-02, 06:27 AM

Can we infer Redcloak's strength from the fact that he can drag, but not carry, a mostly-naked O-Chul? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html

Also regarding Redcloak, he possesses a number of D&D rulebooks (as shown when he animates the Huecuva), speaks Goblin, has ranks in Knowledge (Chemistry) since anything that's not "common knowledge" requires you to be trained, and we know from SOD that he doesn't age (as an effect from wearing the Mantle). Finally, "Craft Wonderous Item" is misspelled. Oh yeah, and we know from SOD that Redcloak isn't his real name.

Xykon - it may be "likely" that his int and wis started at 8 or 9 (in fact I would assume both lower), but I don't believe there's been any proof of that, so perhaps it would be better to list both as "~10 (no evidence)", with the +5 for age etc. Xykon also possesses Serini's diary, and he is totally going to blast you for listing some goblin higher in Team Evil than him

Tsukiko is "assumed not to be a sorcerer", but didn't we know for sure by now that she was a wizard? Also, she mentions that if this were 1st edition, she'd turn Thanh, which means that she's a cleric (and not just "assumedly"). She also possesses an (un)holy symbol, since e.g. Flame Strike requires one. Finally, we can't assume that she has an Int 15, because it's possible that she has the Travel domain and casts teleport from there.

RMS Oceanic

2009-10-02, 06:48 AM

Can we infer Redcloak's strength from the fact that he can drag, but not carry, a mostly-naked O-Chul? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html

Also regarding Redcloak, he possesses a number of D&D rulebooks (as shown when he animates the Huecuva), speaks Goblin, has ranks in Knowledge (Chemistry) since anything that's not "common knowledge" requires you to be trained, and we know from SOD that he doesn't age (as an effect from wearing the Mantle). Finally, "Craft Wonderous Item" is misspelled. Oh yeah, and we know from SOD that Redcloak isn't his real name.

All good points. I can't look up the carry limits at the moment, but I'll update it when I can.

Xykon - it may be "likely" that his int and wis started at 8 or 9 (in fact I would assume both lower), but I don't believe there's been any proof of that, so perhaps it would be better to list both as "~10 (no evidence)", with the +5 for age etc. Xykon also possesses Serini's diary, and he is totally going to blast you for listing some goblin higher in Team Evil than him

Also a good point, but following the racial stuff, I'd also list them as "~15 (no evidence, +3 for venerable age status, +2 for lich)

Tsukiko is "assumed not to be a sorcerer", but didn't we know for sure by now that she was a wizard? Also, she mentions that if this were 1st edition, she'd turn Thanh, which means that she's a cleric (and not just "assumedly"). She also possesses an (un)holy symbol, since e.g. Flame Strike requires one. Finally, we can't assume that she has an Int 15, because it's possible that she has the Travel domain and casts teleport from there.

Um, I already removed the references to sorceror, and added that she can turn undead. The reason Teleport is construed to be a Wizard spell is that Tsukiko has two magical auras. She used the darker one when casting Inflict Critical Wounds on Xykon, and the Lighter one when she was teleporting.

Kurald Galain

2009-10-02, 07:42 AM

The reason Teleport is construed to be a Wizard spell is that Tsukiko has two magical auras. She used the darker one when casting Inflict Critical Wounds on Xykon, and the Lighter one when she was teleporting.
Ah, I hadn't noticed that because Tsuki uses so many more wizard spells than cleric spells. Yes, her lighter aura appears to be consistently used for the latter.

Speaking of Tsukiko, from her fight against Haley we know that two of the following apply: (1) she casts as a 10th level wizard (i.e. wiz 3/theurge 7), (2) she has 20 intelligence, or (3) she is a specialist conjurer or enchanter. This is because she cast three 5th-level spells in succession: Teleport, Dominate Person, Quickened Lesser Acid Orb. A regular non-specialized int-19 wizard has only one of those.

Forbiddenwar

2009-10-02, 11:15 AM

The bonus strip is about Belkar trying to teach his wiener dog tricks, after Haley explains to him that it needs to be trained in order to follow orders. That he did not know that he had to do this leads me to believe he does not have any ranks in Handle Animal. Also, the result of his "check"was that the dog did something Belkar wished the dog could teach him.

I do not have my copy at work, so can't give you the exact number.

Correction. It was Haley's attempt to "Handle animal" that lead to that result.
It was 150b where Belkar uses a Handle animal skill check, with even worse negative results. However, since it was used to "push" the dog (get the dog to do an untrained trick) we cannot infer anything from the result. I agree though, the fact he don't know how to do handle animal does suggest he has no ranks in it. It was applies to his gimpped Ranger class, if he has no handle animal.

Xykon edit:
Paladin blues
Xykon speaks draconic.

Vargtass

2009-10-02, 11:29 AM

Correction. It was Haley's attempt to "Handle animal" that lead to that result.
It was 150b where Belkar uses a Handle animal skill check, with even worse negative results. However, since it was used to "push" the dog (get the dog to do an untrained trick) we cannot infer anything from the result. I agree though, the fact he don't know how to do handle animal does suggest he has no ranks in it. It was applies to his gimpped Ranger class, if he has no handle animal.

Sorry for my confusion, I did not have the books ready, but should have got at least the book title right... Anyway, I think my point (with the support of Wrecan's addendum) stands, Belkar has no ranks in Handle Animal, can't use the skill untrained, and has Mr Scruffy following his orders, thus: Mr Scruffy is indeed Belkar's Animal Companion!

Illven

2009-10-02, 02:51 PM

In 671 Hinjo says Lien managed to gain a few levels since the battle of Azure city should Lien be 7+

batsofchaos

2009-10-02, 03:10 PM

In 671 Hinjo says Lien managed to gain a few levels since the battle of Azure city should Lien be 7+

Actually based on the wording of Hinjo's statement - that he is less useful in battle than either Lien or O-Chul due to them gaining levels since the fall of the city when he has not - strongly implies that both Lien and O-Chul are a higher level than Hinjo. Since Hinjo's level is estimated to be 11 or higher based on him having 3 attacks per round, we can put both Lien and O-Chul at 12 or higher.

Southern Cross

2009-10-02, 04:42 PM

tyckspoon

2009-10-02, 04:50 PM

ABout Julia Greenhilt:
Given the fact that she seemed to be one of the most popular girls in wizard school,I'd say she has,if anything,an above-average Charisma.
Also,since she went to a wizard college,shouldn't she have Collegiate Wizard (from Complete Arcane) as one of her 1st-level feats?

If she has it, all the wizards should have it- that just seems to be the normal way Wizards are trained in the OotS verse. I would think Collegiate Wizard would be more for the ones who do a sort of post-grad study/take advanced placement classes, depending on if you want to go with more of a college or high school analogy. That kind of thing doesn't really seem in Julia's character.

There's also the problem that, unless it gets stated outright in a strip, there's no way to detect the effects of Collegiate Wizard. Extra spells/level means nothing when we have seen nowhere near enough spells used to fill out even the normal 2/level, and any over that can be attributed to the normal spell-collection processes. Thus without explicit confirmation the best we could list for anybody would be "may possibly have Collegiate Wizard but we have no evidence for it one way or another." Which is a pretty useless thing to write down.

batsofchaos

2009-10-02, 04:54 PM

The Julia is popular argument has been presented before, and the answer to that is "Julia probably has a higher than average charisma, but there's no evidence with which to base a number score off of." Yes she's popular in school, but that doesn't tell us if she has a score of 18 in charisma, or 12. Heck, it doesn't even tell us she has a high charisma; she's pretty but their might be other mitigating factors that lead to her popularity beyond having a good score in charisma.

Regarding the Collegiate Wizard thing: Non-core is usually skipped over when determining stats unless otherwise explicitly mentioned in-comic, and just because a character is shown to attend a school to learn wizardry does not mean they automatically get the Collegiate Wizard feat. Heck, most wizards presented in the comic learned their magic from a wizard school (V is an exception, having been apprenticed to an archmage).

Forbiddenwar

2009-10-02, 10:24 PM

Xykon maximum level

Just guessing here, based off of Paladin Blues bonus strip 194A

A Great Wyrm silver dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#silverDragon)has the spell resistance of 32. For Xykon to fail the spell caster check, he would have to have 31 or less sorceror levels a the time. Now, if it was a younger dragon (as it doesn't seem Colossal sized) his level would have to be even less. I know it is hard to judge size on this strip, but it looks huge, not colossal. If so, it wouldn't have higher than 27 spell resistance, which would mean Xykon couldn't have more than 26 levels.

Again, just guesing here, but could we put Xykon's maximum level at 31?

Vargtass

2009-10-03, 02:29 AM

Sorry for my confusion, I did not have the books ready, but should have got at least the book title right... Anyway, I think my point (with the support of Wrecan's addendum) stands, Belkar has no ranks in Handle Animal, can't use the skill untrained, and has Mr Scruffy following his orders, thus: Mr Scruffy is indeed Belkar's Animal Companion!

I have checked the quote from 150c:
:belkar: I'm sorry, but why the hell does anyone expect me to know jack about animals?
:haley: Ummm...you're a RANGER??
:belkar: What's your point?

I think it is quite clear that Belkar does not have ranks in Handle Animal...

hamishspence

2009-10-03, 06:30 AM

Vargtass

2009-10-03, 07:38 AM

hamishspence

2009-10-03, 07:45 AM

that does strongly suggest that he doesn't know how- so no ranks.

Maybe he's levelled up since then- in the several-month gap between end of book 3 and beganning of the as yet unpublished book 4.

Forbiddenwar

2009-10-03, 11:09 AM

he has leveled once, which he promptly lost, during those 3 months
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html

Kurald Galain

2009-10-03, 12:56 PM

I believe that potential for change should never be used as a reason for ignoring past evidence, because that makes the entire geekery thread pointless.

For instance, we have proof that Elan was carrying Banjo in earlier strips. Potentially he may have lost the puppet, given it to Roy instead, or had it ascended to godhood; but we have evidence of none of that. We have no evidence that the previous evidence is no longer valid and therefore we should list Elan as still having Banjo.

This is the same: if we have proof that character X has zero ranks in skill Y at the point of comic Z, then potentially in comic Z+1 he could have added points to it somehow, obtained an item that grants skill ranks, bribed a retrain from the DM, and so forth. But as long as we don't have evidence of any of that, the previous evidence (of 0 ranks) should be considered valid. Just because he gained a level at some point is not at all proof that he put ranks in that skill.

Allan Surgite

2009-10-03, 01:18 PM

Query; under Vaarsuvius' description, there are seperate entries for Bugsby's Grasping Hand and Grasping Hand. Is there any proof that these are not, in fact, the same spell?

Mc. Lovin'

2009-10-03, 01:53 PM

I believe that potential for change should never be used as a reason for ignoring past evidence, because that makes the entire geekery thread pointless.

I completely agree, saying things could be wrong because of non geekery is the same as trying to prove things right with non geekery. It doesnt happen in this thread

hamishspence

2009-10-03, 01:59 PM

true, but it does mean that things should be phrased appropriately, as in

"As of bonus strip X, there is very strong circumstantial evidence to suggest that Belkar did not have any ranks in Handle Animal at the time"

And so on. Its easier to say what he definitely does have, rather than what he doesn't, and where there is evidence for him not having something, it is subject to the possibility of change,

whereas where the evidence is positive evidence "He has at least X ranks in Skill Y" its much harder to reverse.

Since characters don't usually lose ranks- as far as we know there is no retraining.

Dark Matter

2009-10-03, 06:07 PM

Could be interpreted as referring to Knowledge (Nature)- Knowledge tells you that certain animals can't be made to do things without training.

Handle animal tells you how to train them.

We already know Belkar never put any ranks into Wilderness Lore/Survival before then (DCF prologue hints at this, Strip 213 confirms it)

What did he put points in? Jump, Profession (gourmet chef) what else?Create Trap, Intimidation, Climb, move silently?

Also he's probably losing skill points per level because of his int "bonus".

Again, just guesing here, but could we put Xykon's maximum level at 31?It's suggestive, but there's too many *ifs* in that string of logic. If a one doesn't auto-fail. If the monster was of size 'X'. If Xykon hasn't gone up some levels since then.

The Julia is popular argument has been presented before, and the answer to that is "Julia probably has a higher than average charisma, but there's no evidence with which to base a number score off of." Yes she's popular in school, but that doesn't tell us if she has a score of 18 in charisma, or 12. Heck, it doesn't even tell us she has a high charisma; she's pretty but their might be other mitigating factors that lead to her popularity beyond having a good score in charisma.Another problem is Chr is typically the dump stat for Wizards. If she has average she could still be the top Chr of her class.

Kurald Galain

2009-10-03, 06:10 PM

Another problem is Chr is typically the dump stat for Wizards. If she has average she could still be the top Chr of her class.
I'm not convinced Julia is the most popular girl in school, either. We only have Pompey's word for that, and Pompey has a self-admitted stalker-like crush on her. So, yeah...

PsyBlade

2009-10-04, 12:05 PM

I thought she was a Sorcerer going to a Wizarding School. Was I wrong somewhere?

Endalia

2009-10-04, 12:20 PM

:roy:Roy Greenhilt
Lawful Good (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0490.html), Human Male (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0249.html) Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0285.html) 12
Attributes (39 pt buy min):
Str ≥20 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0004.html) (from magic item or level boost*)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ≥16 (consistent with Giant's description of Miko fight*)
Int 14-18 (“very good"*, but V's Int is "higher"*)
Wis ≥14 (“very good"*)
Cha ≥12 (“decent*)
Feats (13): Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0102.html), Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0064.html), Endurance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0162.html)...
Skills (≥60): Intimidate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0001.html), Ride 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0141.html)... No Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0139.html) or Sense Motive.
Abilities: Favored class (any)
Items: Armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) (medium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0005.html)*), Bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html), Boots (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html), greatsword +5 (with other unspecified bonuses) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0297.html), oil of shillelagh (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html), potion of delay poison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html), Bag of Tricks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0130.html)...

I would just like to point out that Roy did not have a magic item that gave him an enchantment bonus to strength before strip 104 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html) as he benefits from a casting of Bull's Strength. He may have received one after that, but I find it unlikely as nothing has been said about him getting one.

Forbiddenwar

2009-10-04, 12:47 PM

I would just like to point out that Roy did not have a magic item that gave him an enchantment bonus to strength before strip 104 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html) as he benefits from a casting of Bull's Strength. He may have received one after that, but I find it unlikely as nothing has been said about him getting one.

You're right, it isn't an enhancement bonus magic item. It could be from a magic item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#manualofGainfulExercise)that gives a different type of bonus, or a bonus from levels.

He may have gotten other benefits after strip 104 that we didn't see. Not every bit of minutia is detailed. However, we do know that: in strip 4 he carries Durkon one handed, which requires 20 or higher str. And in strip 104 he gets a buls str. That is all we know.

Pyron

2009-10-04, 01:08 PM

I thought she was a Sorcerer going to a Wizarding School. Was I wrong somewhere?

:roy: Julia is a 16 year old girl and a 3rd level wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html). (Bottom of the page).

Kurald Galain

2009-10-04, 01:29 PM

I would just like to point out that Roy did not have a magic item that gave him an enchantment bonus to strength before strip 104 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html) as he benefits from a casting of Bull's Strength.
Actually, if he had an item of +2 to strength, then he would still benefit from the casting.

I thought she was a Sorcerer going to a Wizarding School. Was I wrong somewhere?
Sorcerers not going to school is a major plot point in SOD.

Ozymandias9

2009-10-04, 02:27 PM

I thought she was a Sorcerer going to a Wizarding School. Was I wrong somewhere?

You might be remembering the fact that Warthog's (her school) offers an Associate's degree in Sorcery in addition to the more common Stickworld Wizarding Curriculum.

PsyBlade

2009-10-05, 10:06 AM

:roy: Julia is a 16 year old girl and a 3rd level wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html). (Bottom of the page).

Ok, so I was wrong.

You might be remembering the fact that Warthog's (her school) offers an Associate's degree in Sorcery in addition to the more common Stickworld Wizarding Curriculum.

No memory of this whatsoever. My memory tends to pick up only small amounts of details. Probably why I assumed she was a Sorcerer and never caught Roy stating what she really was. I never got any of the books either, so I didn't know about the school only not teaching Sorcerers either.

Wrecan

2009-10-06, 12:06 PM

Well, you geekerers convinced me. Mr. Scruffy is indeed an animal companion! I've added stats, but would really appreciate some number checking.

Forbiddenwar

2009-10-06, 03:15 PM

Just some detail oriented geekery regarding V's spell list.

1)Bugsby grasping hand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html)(spell is named but doesn't appear in d20)

2)Grasping hand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html)(spell is Not named, but appears to be the same as above spell)
As someone else mentioned, shouldn't they be the same spell? Either under the former or the later?

To add to the confusion:
Bixbys crushing hand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html) doesn't appear on V's spell list.
Edit: Ah, never mind. It wasn't her spell, it was from the splice.

Wrecan

2009-10-06, 04:12 PM

Re: Bugsby -- Fixed!

Pip

2009-10-07, 03:25 PM

Doesn't 683 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0683.html) prove that Roy has at least one rank in Listen Check?

Forbiddenwar

2009-10-07, 03:27 PM

Doesn't 683 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0683.html) prove that Roy has at least one rank in Listen Check?

No. Listen checks can be made untrained. And we already know Roy has a decent wisdom.

Pip

2009-10-08, 04:55 PM

659 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html) Shows Blackwing speaking Raven. The presence of a translation proves that this should be considered a langage, and added to the list that Blackwing knows.

Wrecan

2009-10-09, 06:25 AM

No. Familiars get "speak with own kind" as an ability. This is already listed in Blackwing's stat block.

Kurald Galain

2009-10-09, 06:56 AM

For Thog, his intelligence is listed as 8. However, 8 is the average intelligence for a half-orc, so would be its value for "no evidence plus racials". Since a dump stat must be below average or it wouldn't be a dump, we know that his int is less than 8.

Why is Thog assumed to be level 12? On the one hand, I would assume his level to equal that of the Order of the Stick. On the other hand, we've had no evidence of the levels of the Linear Guild. I find it strange that Thog's level is stated as 12, Sabine's as 1+, and Nale's as 8+. In related issue, if Sabine's level is 1+, how come she has 5 feats? If Nale's level is 8+, how come he has 8 feats? And shouldn't Nale, like Thog, have a fighter bonus feat? Finally, how do we know Sabine's strength is exactly 18, instead of at least 18?

Since Sabine is a rogue, she has the ability Sneak Attackand Trapfinding.

For Hinjo, I'm not sure why his Con and Int scores offer speculation that he "likely" has a high con and is "not stupid". We have proof for neither. Furthermore, we don't actually know that Hinjo has "a good will save" (which is offered as "proof" for his wisdom score) - first, he could have rolled well; and second, he also adds his charisma to his will save anyway. So we don't really know anything about Hinjo's Con, Int and Wis. We also don't know that he has Handle Animal, which is "not demonstrated but likely". I mean, Hinjo also likely has diplomacy skill, a prestige class, and an armor +2, but none of that is demonstrated either.

For O-Chul, the standard paladin abilities are listed. However, we don't know if he has more than one paladin level - he could e.g. be a fighter 10 / paladin 1. We haven't seen him use e.g. divine grace, so it's not a given that he can do that. Also, the same thing as for Thog applies to O-Chul: if charisma is his dump stat, it must be less than average, thus less than 10.

For Lien, as with Hinjo, her "not demonstrated but likely" handle animal skill is not evidenced in the comic.

Yendor

2009-10-09, 07:28 AM

For O-Chul, the standard paladin abilities are listed. However, we don't know if he has more than one paladin level - he could e.g. be a fighter 10 / paladin 1. We haven't seen him use e.g. divine grace, so it's not a given that he can do that. Also, the same thing as for Thog applies to O-Chul: if charisma is his dump stat, it must be less than average, thus less than 10.

Well, if Charisma is his dump stat, he gets no benefit from divine grace anyway. Evidence certainly suggests he has aura of courage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html), which makes him at least a third-level paladin. Although we only see him attempt one Smite Evil at time, so he may not have five levels.

Kurald Galain

2009-10-09, 09:39 AM

Evidence certainly suggests he has aura of courage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html), which makes him at least a third-level paladin.

I'm not convinced. Redcloak thinks that the torture doesn't work because O-Chul is immune to fear, but actually it doesn't work because O-Chul doesn't have the information that Redcloak wants.

Kish

2009-10-09, 11:39 AM

Since a dump stat must be below average or it wouldn't be a dump,
That depends entirely on the character's initial dice rolls.

...Which isn't to say I think Thog's Intelligence is as high as 8, I don't. Just to take issue with your definition of "dump stat." Roy and especially Miko may well have put a roll of 10 or even higher in their dump stats, because their rolls were all high.

Thunderbuckets

2009-10-09, 11:39 AM

Latest strip obviously tells us that V's spell list has Heroism and confirms Haste from when it was nebulous from 49 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html).

Also, Elan's rapier in this one is silver when it's been black before. Could be a joke, but since he calls it a silver rapier, even in song, I think that's evidence enough to suggest that he's picked up a second weapon.

Wrecan

2009-10-09, 11:52 AM

Updated Elan's rapier and V's spell list!

baerdith

2009-10-09, 02:02 PM

Updated Elan's rapier and V's spell list!

The Rapier could have been illusioned to look silver... If Elan did get a new rapier would it be better than a +3 keen?

Mc. Lovin'

2009-10-09, 02:07 PM

The Rapier could have been illusioned to look silver... If Elan did get a new rapier would it be better than a +3 keen?

Im pretty sure that's pedantic. Personally I think it was just a pun on how rapiers are colour silver, that's all.

Wrecan

2009-10-09, 02:11 PM

I wrote silver, not silvered

Kurald Galain

2009-10-09, 02:39 PM

Given that Elan is actually just being genre-savvy and quoting a song text, that doesn't say anything about the weapon he's using.

Silver weapons don't even exist, by RAW, and at any rate silver is a pretty crappy material to make a weapon of. Silvered weapons do exist, but that's not what Elan's saying.

Maybe he has a bilver weapon.

Random832

2009-10-09, 03:33 PM

While on the subject, Hinjo has a silvered (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html) katana (which i couldasworn that it said silver when that comic was new).

homeosapiens

2009-10-09, 05:48 PM

Doesn't 4 attacks mean Elan is eighter 14/1 or 13/2 lv?

Kurald Galain

2009-10-09, 06:39 PM

Doesn't 4 attacks mean Elan is eighter 14/1 or 13/2 lv?

(1) haste spell, and (2) that wasn't necessarily one round.

Forbiddenwar

2009-10-09, 07:00 PM

(1) haste spell, and (2) that wasn't necessarily one round.

1)haste spell was accounted for. for 3 attacks, Elan needs a bab of +11, or ECL level 15, assuming dashing swordsman has equal BAB as Bard, of which there is no evidence.
2)right about this though, considering it was 6 attacks in a row, and considering that V cast 2 non quickened spells in a row, it doesn;t appear that full initiative order was demonstrated in today's comic.

Yendor

2009-10-09, 09:03 PM

V was explicitly holding back. V did nothing for a round because there was no need to do anything.

Ozymandias9

2009-10-09, 10:25 PM

For Thog, his intelligence is listed as 8. However, 8 is the average intelligence for a half-orc, so would be its value for "no evidence plus racials". Since a dump stat must be below average or it wouldn't be a dump, we know that his int is less than 8.
That would depend heavily if the abilities are generated by point buy or rolling. In the former case, dump stat implies an active sacrifice. In the later, it merely means indicates where you're dumping your worst rolls.

Quirp

2009-10-10, 10:18 AM

Doesn´t Roy in comic no185 say that he has one level of psion?

Douglas

2009-10-10, 10:30 AM

Your sarcasm detector must be malfunctioning, he was very obviously joking.

Quirp

2009-10-10, 10:35 AM

.......prrrffzt............
oh, yes that happens from time to time
I have to fix it sometime:smallwink:

Mc. Lovin'

2009-10-10, 01:55 PM

(1) haste spell, and (2) that wasn't necessarily one round.

In fact it definitely wasn't, he got two different battle damages between the attacks

euch

2009-10-10, 02:01 PM

Wrecan

2009-10-10, 02:36 PM

Forbiddenwar

2009-10-10, 02:47 PM

Latest stripe (684 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html) Elan is shown to give 3 strikes in a round (on stripes 6, 7 and 8 he only got 1 scratch).
even if Dashing Swordsman is a full bab progression PrC he should be at least lvl 15 character (Bard 13/Dashing Swordsman ≥2)

3 strikes per round equal 2 attacks a round from BAB and 1 from haste. Yay, easy solution.

Those consecutive panels are not necessarily all occurring in one round. I have no idea why the number of scratches is relevant.

He was using the number of scrathes to determine that they all occured in the same round, as the fourth attack must have occured in a later round due to a second scrath. This is a very faulty argument, and moot as well, due to haste.

Zone

2009-10-13, 02:04 PM

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0685.html

Obviously at least one of Belkar's daggers is vorpal, since he slashed his friend's head off with ease.

Shale

2009-10-13, 02:07 PM

We don't know how many rounds elapsed between the attempted catnapping and the...er...coup de grace. Decapitating an enemy you've already beaten the stuffing out of needs no enchantment.

Forbiddenwar

2009-10-13, 07:19 PM

however, I understand fighing a hydra is difficult without a vorpal blade. Yet, belker easily removed the heads of one. This is probably just a joke, though.

Wrecan

2009-10-13, 07:21 PM

THat's not true. You don't need a vorpal blade to cut off hydra heads. (It's the only monster in 3e that has this property.) You can cut off hydra heads simply with a sunder attack.

The Blackbird

2009-10-13, 07:21 PM

however, I understand fighing a hydra is difficult without a vorpal blade. Yet, belker easily removed the heads of one. This is probably just a joke, though.

The monster manuel entry of hydra explains how you can make a sunder attempt on a head.

EDIT: Ninja'd

Moogleking

2009-10-15, 11:45 AM

When you say "No Evidence" for Elan's Strength, you forget this-

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html

"Perfect for someone who has more Charisma than Strength".

Hence, Elan has less than 20 Strength. Not much, but its something:smalltongue:

Wrecan

2009-10-16, 06:27 AM

Good catch! Nice geekerying!

Fitzclowningham

2009-10-16, 02:58 PM

Staying on Elan's strength, it could be further argued that it's lower than 14. I realize the OotS are seriously underoptimized, but burning a feat on Weapon Finesse would be seriously stupid if it brought him no benefit.

Kish

2009-10-16, 02:59 PM

Fitzclowningham

2009-10-16, 03:10 PM

Ba-doom-Kish!

Illven

2009-10-16, 06:02 PM

Are we sure that Elan has less than 20 strength. We know he has more than 20 charisma but if he had 21 strength and 22 charisma the more charisma than strength statement would be true

DukeGod

2009-10-16, 08:07 PM

Forbiddenwar

2009-10-16, 10:52 PM

I don't know if Belkar's number of daggers is still in discussion but he really have three or more.At strip 435 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html) he is fighting with two,however he throwed one at the Xykon's zombie dragon in 429 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html)you can see it in its leg at the first panel in the third row(though it disappeared a few panels later...)

No debate. We actually see 3 in one panel in 611.

On possible scruffy tricks:
Scruffy has or can have 8-10 Tricks (6 for Int 2, and 2-4 for animal companion of a 11th-20 level Ranger (5th-10 level druid))
Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html)
Come (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0522.html)
Guard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0565.html)
If he didn't have these 3 tricks, Belkar would have to use Handle animal to push Scruffy to do these, which is trained only and he doesn't have.

I don't know if using a skill on command is a trick, but if so, Jump (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0682.html)is one

Scruffy may have pounce as well. I'm checking and it is pretty standard for felines.

Edit: Never mind about pounce, there is no evidence of it, and according to this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Cat), House cats don't normally have it.

Can we give Scruffy an AC of at least 17 (2 size, +3 or more Dex, +2 or more Nat armor)? Or are we not tracking that.

Forbiddenwar

2009-10-17, 12:22 AM

During the battle of Azure City, Redcloak casts at least 9 level 7 spells.
2 Disintegrates
5 summon huge elementals
1 Destruction (probably Domain spell)
1 Summon Fiendish Giant Octopus

He also casts 1 level 8 spell, extended summon 7

Now help me figure out how.
At level 19-20 he can cast 4 Level 7 spells, +1 domain spell. If he has a wisdom of 24 or higher he can cast a bonus 7 spell. If he is epic, he can get increase spell capacity, but he doesn't seem epic, and that would only give him one more spell. Did he fill his level 8 slots (or level 9) with 7th level spells? Is this evidence of ownership of a 7th level pearl of power? But then he would only get 1 additional casting of a spell already cast per pearl he owned.

I just can't figure it out. Please help.

Edit: unless he cast the elementals from scrolls. Since it was off screen, I guess that is possible. Never mind, I feel dumb now.

Edit yet again: However, He is still casting 4 level 7 spells on panel with no sign of scroll or other magical device. Is this a strong enough case for Redcloak to be at level 16 or having a wisdom of 24 or having a 7th level pearl of power (since he casts disintergrate twice)?

Dark Matter

2009-10-19, 11:46 AM

RC Cast at 7th level on screen:
Extended M-Summoning 7 ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html )
Destruction ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html )
One Disintegration ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html )

Off screen:
Chlorine elemental (probably M-Summoning 8)
3x T elementals (ditto... but this is probably one summon and not 3, 1d3)
M-Summoning 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0478.html )

So that's 6x 7th level spells... but the kicker is he could have bumped one or more of the summoning spells to 8th level by slapping an "Extended" on it (or he could use scrolls).

His domain spell is Disin (it's not a Cleric spell otherwise).

Shale

2009-10-19, 12:14 PM

Don't forget that Redcloak also has an artifact cloak crafted by his patron god with powers that are as yet largely undefined. Given that (SoD) The Dark One requires an extremely powerful divine caster for the completion of his plan, and the Mantle is designed to be worn by that caster It makes sense that the Crimson Mantle would boost spellcasting.

Mc. Lovin'

2009-10-19, 12:51 PM

It makes sense that the Crimson Mantle would boost spellcasting.

Conjecture! Not in MY geekery thread!

Dark Matter

2009-10-19, 02:13 PM

Off screen:
Chlorine elemental (probably M-Summoning 8)
3x T elementals (ditto... but this is probably one summon and not 3, 1d3)
M-Summoning 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0478.html )

So that's 6x 7th level spells... but the kicker is he could have bumped one or more of the summoning spells to 8th level by slapping an "Extended" on it (or he could use scrolls).Correction: M-Summoning 8 is an 8th level spell. That's the squid and both sets of elementals so he had 3 level 8 spells... ouch.

I think the triplets are reasonable as a scroll, V used a scroll to get rid of them after all. The squid doesn't seem like the thing you'd prepare in advance. For that matter even the Chlorine elemental is iffy since we probably would have seen a scroll.

He could do this if he were level 15 (which we already knew) if he also had a Wis of 26, or he could just be at 16th level.

Further it's implied that he doesn't have a Wis of 26 since a 22 would have saved here. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html

Forbiddenwar

2009-10-19, 02:26 PM

Correction: M-Summoning 8 is an 8th level spell. That's the squid and both sets of elementals so he had 3 level 8 spells... ouch.

I think the triplets are reasonable as a scroll, V used a scroll to get rid of them after all. The squid doesn't seem like the thing you'd prepare in advance. For that matter even the Chlorine elemental is iffy since we probably would have seen a scroll.

He could do this if he were level 15 (which we already knew) if he also had a Wis of 26, or he could just be at 16th level.

Further it's implied that he doesn't have a Wis of 26 since a 22 would have saved here. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html

A few questions? M-Summoning? You mean extended summon 7? Of M for mammoth, which was extended.

Triplets? There were 5 Titanium elementals. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0424.html (3rd panel) V took 3, Belkar and Roy took 1 and Elan Haley and Durkon took the last one. I set them at least level 7 because they are huge or more. It was off panel and by the number I think we have to assume that 1 or more of them were scrolls. Unless it was a level 9 summon spell. (1d4+1 T elementals (Huge))

It's not a squid, but an octopus, Fiendish octopus is a level 7 spell. There is no scroll to be seen.

The chlorine element is a 6th level summon (large) Maybe it was metamagic, but there is no evidence of it, and there is no scroll to be seen.
On level 6 spells he also casts Blade Barrier and harm.

Edit: Oh I think I just showed him at level 15. I don't know where I saw another disintergrate. Maybe I confused it with destruction.

Dark Matter

2009-10-19, 10:10 PM

A few questions? M-Summoning? You mean extended summon 7? Of M for mammoth, which was extended.Actually I meant Monster Summoning, for some reason I always flip those too.

Triplets? There were 5 Titanium elementals.Good catch, I'd forgotten that it wasn't just V.

I set them at least level 7 because they are huge or more. It was off panel and by the number I think we have to assume that 1 or more of them were scrolls. Unless it was a level 9 summon spell. (1d4+1 T elementals (Huge))I'm not ready to give him level 9 spells just yet, so scrolls it is.

It's not a squid, but an octopus, Fiendish octopus is a level 7 spell. There is no scroll to be seen.Fiendish octopus is also a CE monster, and Redcloak is LE. Can he do that? ...Considering the Level 7 Mammoth is LG, I guess he can.

Oh I think I just showed him at level 15.That's good since we've had other indications he's at 15+ (dice in the blade barrier for example).

Pilot3lite

2009-10-20, 12:37 AM

Wouldn't Haley have a pretty high sleight of hand there is some evidence if we look:

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0540.html), even though that might just be for the comedy.

And here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0673.html). this one she has the time to swipe lizard's purse and write note in a matter of seconds/moments.

Kish

2009-10-20, 12:39 AM

I'm not ready to give him level 9 spells just yet, so scrolls it is.

Belkar bet that he was 17th level.

Fiendish octopus is also a CE monster, and Redcloak is LE. Can he do that? ...Considering the Level 7 Mammoth is LG, I guess he can.
I imagine he's allowed to request whatever fake animal he wants from the Nine Hells. I know, as a DM, I'm not inclined to say "there's no such thing as a fiendish badger" just because the given examples include a celestial badger but no fiendish one. :smalltongue:

Dark Matter

2009-10-20, 07:28 AM

Belkar bet that he was 17th level.That would let him get 5 Elementals at one stroke without a scroll. It'd also jibe with him still having spells at the end of the battle. But we've never actually seen him cast a 9th level spell.

Kwinza

2009-10-20, 07:54 AM

Dark Matter

2009-10-20, 08:18 AM

just wondering here but i was looking at Xykon's entry and it lists him as having "Improved Spell Capacity" x3 so he can cast a 12th lvl spell but couldnt he have "improved metamagic" x 3 and thus cast the same spell as a 9th lvl spell? would that also make more sense from a build point of view as it would also help all his other spells should he apply metamagic to them?

if im wrong about anythin feel free to web-slap me ^_^He could have it 2x and then he'd still need Improved Spell Capacity (Still MS and Max'ed EDrain become 10th level spells at minimum). He might have enough Chr to have an extra 10th level spell.

He'd need 30 ranks of Spellcraft (which he probably has since we're assuming he's level 27+).
He'd also need 4 meta-magic feats (We've only seen Still & Max).
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedMetamagic

So both of those Prerequisites present problems. The SpellCraft ranks mean you have to be level 27 before you can take even one level of IMM. So with our current min level he could have at most one instance of it.

But the big problem is X doesn't use Mega-Magic very often. Given what we've seen IMHO it's somewhat more likely he just has 3x improved spell capacity. For a Sorcerer getting more higher level spells makes sense since he can burn high level slots for low level spells.

Kwinza

2009-10-20, 08:29 AM

i thought that X was damn near confermed to have items or feats that up his spellcraft thus making multipul imp metamagic viable and imho any lvl20+ caster that doesnt have 4+ meta feats is an idiot :P
but yeah really it was just a lil side thought.

Dark Matter

2009-10-20, 10:08 AM

i thought that X was damn near confermed to have items or feats that up his spellcraft thus making multipul imp metamagic viable...Yeah, we're assuming he does, but that doesn't help. He doesn't need a total Spellcraft of 30, he needs 30 ranks.

...imho any lvl20+ caster that doesnt have 4+ meta feats is an idiot :PTrue. And your point is? :smallwink:

More seriously, getting lots of megamagic is harder for a Sorcerer than a Wizard since they have 5 fewer feats by level 20. We know of 4 non-epic feats he has, his grand total is only... 8? (Book not handy). It'd be real easy to burn through those without getting 2 more megamagic types, especially for a non-optimized idiot.

Pip

2009-10-20, 05:58 PM

Is there any evidence that Belker ever got his +20 Jump Ring back from Roy/Roy's body? 686 seems to show Roy being able to jump farther than he should be able.

Forbiddenwar

2009-10-20, 10:50 PM

That would let him get 5 Elementals at one stroke without a scroll. It'd also jibe with him still having spells at the end of the battle. But we've never actually seen him cast a 9th level spell.

but he says he is low on spells. If he was level 17, he would have a few more level 7 spells. And more 6th level spells. I think "Harm, that is my last one" means that he was completely out of 6th level spells, since clerics can spontaneously cast.

So he must of cast the summon titaniums from a scroll. Most likely a scroll for Summon monster IX.

Random832

2009-10-20, 11:28 PM

but he says he is low on spells. If he was level 17, he would have a few more level 7 spells. And more 6th level spells. I think "Harm, that is my last one" means that he was completely out of 6th level spells, since clerics can spontaneously cast.

So he must of cast the summon titaniums from a scroll. Most likely a scroll for Summon monster IX.

*ahem*

An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric of an evil deity), can’t convert prepared spells to cure spells but can convert them to inflict spells (an inflict spell is one with "inflict" in its name).
Let the record show that harm does not have "inflict" in its name.

We often think of them as part of the cure-/inflict- "lines" of spells, because they share some unique mechanics in common with them, but they do not qualify for cleric spontaneous casting.

Douglas

2009-10-20, 11:35 PM

Yeah, the 6th level option for Redcloak's spontaneous casting is Mass Inflict Moderate Wounds.

Kwinza

2009-10-21, 02:36 AM

Dark Matter you make a good point, guess i'd just have to hope X went a good way with his build but there no real way to say huh :P

kenb215

2009-10-21, 09:46 AM

Is there any evidence that Belker ever got his +20 Jump Ring back from Roy/Roy's body? 686 seems to show Roy being able to jump farther than he should be able.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html), last panel.

Pip

2009-10-21, 12:27 PM

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html), last panel.

That seems clear enough. Thanks.

osaka40

2009-10-22, 09:55 PM

The entry for Redcloak says:

Wis 20+ (save DC for L7 spell is >21) and references strip 456. However, IMO, it should say the save DC should be >22, based on strip 486.

Shale

2009-10-22, 09:58 PM

osaka40

2009-10-22, 11:15 PM

No, the joke of that strip is that he noticed the error too late to actually apply the right number. Remember that the OotS world only applies bonuses to dice rolls when the person remembers to apply them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html).

I think 34 more argues against your interpretation, rather than for it. Durkon doesn't remember the bonuses, rather, he is told about them, and they are then retroactively applied.

In Celestia, the High Priest is likewise told about the modified number, but there is no retroactive effect. It could be that it is now "too late" - but I fail to see how the difference in retroactively saving someone is different from retroactively not saving someone like the goblin in 34. That requires all sorts of metaphysical arguments. Seems much simpler to believe that a 22 didn't save either.

Which is what I rather see the point of the joke of 486 as being. The poor cleric asks about a 21, and snuffs it. He then finds out that he didn't actually get a 21, but a 22 - and *still* dies. Lawful petitioner that he is.

Given the fabric of D&D generally, there normally isn't a "too late" for anything.

Although I will admit your interpretation is a possibility. Just not, IMO a probability.

Shale

2009-10-22, 11:24 PM

The thing is, that's exactly how a non-evil DM would treat things. Durkon is reminded of the bonuses before the goblin even has time to launch another attack, so it doesn't mess with any later events to go back and rule that yes, those attacks both hit, roll for damage. With the priest, making the change would rewind everything back to the invasion of Azure City, which is in the D&D analogy a a full session ago or more, and possibly kill Redcloak, which would send the campaign off in a completely different direction, possibly including the death of Xykon in the throne room. No DM with any sanity would bend over that far backward to fix a player's error, so the OotS universe doesn't either.

Forbiddenwar

2009-10-23, 01:06 AM

And the fact is all we know for sure is that a 21 didn't save.
Maybe a 22 saved, maybe not. we can't know for sure unless the Giant explicitly says so. In a strip or otherwise.

Yes it is a funny joke to think that if he realized in time that he got a "22" he would have survived, but we can't tell for sure, one way or the other.

Dark Matter

2009-10-23, 01:23 PM

Durkon is reminded of the bonuses before the goblin even has time to launch another attack, so it doesn't mess with any later events to go back and rule that yes, those attacks both hit, roll for damage. With the priest, making the change would rewind everything back to the invasion of Azure City, which is in the D&D analogy a full session ago or more, and possibly kill Redcloak, which would send the campaign off in a completely different direction, possibly including the death of Xykon in the throne room. No DM with any sanity would bend over that far backward to fix a player's error, so the OotS universe doesn't either.Agreed, exactly.

The whole joke isn't funny unless a 22 *would* have saved while a 21 did not. I think we're supposed to believe that.

Kish

2009-10-23, 01:55 PM

Agreed, exactly.

The whole joke isn't funny unless a 22 *would* have saved while a 21 did not. I think we're supposed to believe that.
How would the priest know that a 22 would have saved, when he had to ask to confirm that a 21 didn't? The joke isn't that it would have saved, the joke is that he doesn't know.

Pip

2009-10-23, 06:11 PM

How would the priest know that a 22 would have saved, when he had to ask to confirm that a 21 didn't? The joke isn't that it would have saved, the joke is that he doesn't know.

If the highest number you could role and still die was 21 and you rolled a 21, wouldn't you ask for confirmation?

Dark Matter

2009-10-23, 08:11 PM

How would the priest know that a 22 would have saved, when he had to ask to confirm that a 21 didn't?Same way we do. Save is 10+SpellLevel(7)+RC's Stat Mod. That's 17+Mod.

Given RC is casting 8th level spells, his Wis is at least 18, thus his Modifier is at least +4. A 21 *might* save just barely, that's why he needed to ask. If RC has a 18 or 19 Wis, then the priest lives, if it's higher, then he dies.

The joke isn't that it would have saved, the joke is that he doesn't know.So it's not funnier to see him standing in line for heaven's gate and realize he's *not* supposed to be there... but it's too late?

This is a reasonably common gamers in-joke. You go home from a convention or tournament and realize if you'd only done something different, given yourself the advantage that you'd actually purchased and put on your char sheet, the game would have been seriously different, and you probably would have won. Well, that happened here.

But in order for this to be this way, RC's Wisdom has to be 20 or 21, because if it were 22 then that priest *still* would have died after rolling a 22. Missing the roll by 5 and then realizing that you only missed it by 4 isn't something to kick yourself over.

Kish

2009-10-23, 08:51 PM

Same way we do.

Not at all, in other words?

Save is 10+SpellLevel(7)+RC's Stat Mod. That's 17+Mod.

Given RC is casting 8th level spells, his Wis is at least 18, thus his Modifier is at least +4. A 21 *might* save just barely, that's why he needed to ask. If RC has a 18 or 19 Wis, then the priest lives, if it's higher, then he dies.

So it's not funnier to see him standing in line for heaven's gate and realize he's *not* supposed to be there... but it's too late?

:smallconfused: You do realize that your example not only doesn't explain how he would know a 22 saved, it doesn't claim that he would know that? That he needed to ask because he doesn't know Redcloak's level or Wisdom, and if he had rolled a 22, he would have had to ask, "Does a 22 save?"? I wouldn't consider your example funnier, no, but that's beside the point. The point is that it wouldn't make any sense. We don't know Redcloak's exact level or Wisdom. Judging by Rich's attitude toward tying his characters down to precise stats, Rich probably doesn't know Redcloak's exact level or Wisdom. How would the Azure City priest know them?

Dark Matter

2009-10-23, 10:24 PM

You do realize that your example not only doesn't explain how he would know a 22 saved, it doesn't claim that he would know that?Just the opposite. These people know the rules. Roy even knows that X has to be at least level 21. This is a high level cleric, we can and should assume he knows the high level cleric rules.

That he needed to ask because he doesn't know Redcloak's level or Wisdom...He doesn't need to know RC's level. But he does know that RC is casting high level spells (just like himself).

...and if he had rolled a 22, he would have had to ask, "Does a 22 save?"Now you're making the assumption that it wouldn't, i.e. that he blew his roll by a more than marginal amount. That undoes the joke. Rich could just as easily had him say "but it was a 25", or whatever he needed to 'win'.

What blows a hole in my argument is the "funny trumps the rules" rule. This is evidence that RC has a Wisdom of 20-21, but less than 22. It's also a one shot joke.

Kish

2009-10-23, 10:44 PM

Just the opposite. These people know the rules. Roy even knows that X has to be at least level 21. This is a high level cleric, we can and should assume he knows the high level cleric rules.

He doesn't need to know RC's level.

No, but he needs to know Redcloak's Wisdom, if he knows whether or not a 22 would save.

Now you're making the assumption that it wouldn't,

No. I'm making the "assumption" that he doesn't know Redcloak's maximum level or wisdom, only minimums of both, and thus he has to ask if a 21 would save, and he would have to ask if a 22 would save. I don't know why you're insisting that he would know, to the point of saying that I must actually mean something completely different from what I've said. He doesn't know Redcloak's level, he doesn't know Redcloak's Wisdom, and so while he knows a 21 didn't make the save, he has no way of knowing what number would have made it.

Milskidasith

2009-10-23, 10:53 PM

No, but he needs to know Redcloak's Wisdom, if he knows whether or not a 22 would save.

He could have found that out at a later date; checking the save DCs on redcloaks other spells, since he was looking over his rolls, could have happened. Funny trumps rules in most cases, but with this being the only evidence, wis 20-21 seems likely.

Jagos

2009-10-23, 10:57 PM

No, but he needs to know Redcloak's Wisdom, if he knows whether or not a 22 would save.

No. I'm making the "assumption" that he doesn't know Redcloak's maximum level or wisdom, only minimums of both, and thus he has to ask if a 21 would save, and he would have to ask if a 22 would save. I don't know why you're insisting that he would know, to the point of saying that I must actually mean something completely different from what I've said. He doesn't know Redcloak's level, he doesn't know Redcloak's Wisdom, and so while he knows a 21 didn't make the save, he has no way of knowing what number would have made it.

But isn't it easier to believe the priest had a +1 bonus somewhere that gave him a 22 which is in line with RC's wisdom being fairly high? From the looks, both of them had some fairly high Saving throw dice to work with.

Kish

2009-10-23, 11:13 PM

Either he's upset because he got a higher roll than he reported, and he might have survived if he'd read the dice correctly, and he doesn't know Redcloak's Wisdom. Or, as he's standing in line, he knows Redcloak's Wisdom, knows exactly the number he needed, and that it was 22. These don't strike me as materially different jokes, although one is based on a premise--his knowledge of Redcloak's Wisdom--that I consider insupportable. Why is him knowing for a fact that he would have survived with a 22 required for the joke? Even if he knew that he would have survived that spell, it just moves the uncertainty a little, from "whether I would have survived that spell with a 22" to "whether I would have won the fight if I had survived the Destruction spell, barely."

It's not like Destruction is even the highest spell level Redcloak had access to at that time.

Jagos

2009-10-24, 12:16 AM

CoffeeIncluded

2009-10-24, 01:03 PM

Add in the giant's strength belt.

Forbiddenwar

2009-10-24, 01:50 PM

And Belkar's new gift box (and whatever is inside, if anything)

baerdith

2009-10-24, 02:38 PM

Conjecture! Not in MY geekery thread!

During SOD when the virus wiped all spellcasting Redcloak could still cast. That says the Mantle has SOME boosting......

Forbiddenwar

2009-10-24, 02:41 PM

During SOD when the virus wiped all spellcasting Redcloak could still cast. That says the Mantle has SOME boosting......

Actually, it says it makes him immune to magical and nonmagical dieseases, nothing about boosting spell casting.

Kish

2009-10-24, 02:41 PM

That says the Mantle protected Redcloak from the virus. Generalizing from that to it boosting his spellcasting would be kind of like, "The cloak makes him invisible, therefore it probably lets him fly." :smalltongue:

Edit: Ninjad by Forbiddenwar.

baerdith

2009-10-24, 03:01 PM

DrakebloodIV

2009-10-24, 03:31 PM

RMS Oceanic

2009-10-24, 05:02 PM

But baer is right that the cloak grants him spell-casting abilities. There are several references in SoD that imply that without the cloak he would lose several cleric levels or fall as a cleric. I would suggest that we make a rough draft of the Crimson Mantle as an artifact.

SoD references

The light shooting from his bodildy orfaces and bold LEARN (pg 13)
The sudden gain in spell level (assumed, see 14 and 15 for example)
"I'm a cleric, I can't just abandon the Dark Ones directives" (pg 81)

I'll start working on a rough Crimson mantle if its OK with everyone.

What he was LEARNing was the plan of the Dark One, i.e. Use the gates to get a better deal for goblinoids. These are the said same directives he talks about on page 81. And where's the sudden level gain on page 15? I see him using the special ability of the Destruction Clerical Domain, which doesn't indicate his gaining of any levels.

On a slightly less spoileriffic note, I had toyed around with the idea of having a section where we try to establish the abilities of homebrewed artifacts/spells/classes/whatever, but I was persuaded that this goes beyond the intent of a Class/Level geekery thread. To wit:

I disagree that homebrew belongs in the geekery thread.

Everything else in this thread is based upon factual statements from the comic, and upon RAW. On the other hand, we have no idea how exactly e.g. Cloister and Familicide are worded mechanically, and homebrew by definition isn't RAW. There's too many assumptions in those spell descriptions.

In any case, the events you point out in SoD are too vague for stat usage, and "implying" it granted him a level boost is not clear enough. We work on the principle of things that are clearly stated, or can be directly worked out.

Porthos

2009-10-24, 05:52 PM

In any case, the events you point out in SoD are too vague for stat usage, and "implying" it granted him a level boost is not clear enough. We work on the principle of things that are clearly stated, or can be directly worked out.

Speaking of which, what can we figure out about Roy's strength score from today's comic? I notice in the links for his current score, the "≥ 20" had a discussion that it might be due to magical bonuses. Could Roy's reaction in today's comic be an indication that he had no magical boosting items before now? Or at least he doesn't have any that won't stack with his new belt?

It seems to me that if he had any enhancement bonus to STR items, he would have made some sort of comment about it when receiving the belt. I say that because Roy will always make a comment about how something isn't quite as good as it seems if there is even a minor problem with it.

Or is this too close to "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence"?

If we can conclude that his belt stacks with whatever he has, then should his STR be changed to "≥24" which what it would be with a +4 belt of giant strength?

Pyron

2009-10-24, 06:49 PM

I say that because Roy will always make a comment about how something isn't quite as good as it seems if there is even a minor problem with it.

:roy: "Normally I would say that didn't need to do that, but we're sort of on an 'every possible advantage needed' type of quest. So I'll just say, 'Thank you'."

It's rather doubtful that Roy would complain that something is not as good as it should be when they need every advantage.

Or is this too close to "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence"?

Yeah - it's better to supply evidence if you want to support your position. For example, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html)Roy is getting buffed with Bull's Strength. That supports the possibility that Roy does not have any strength boosting items.

Illven

2009-10-24, 06:55 PM

Does the fact that Belker mentions a major magic item mean anything about the belt?

Allan Surgite

2009-10-24, 08:28 PM

I'm going to poke at V's spell list again.

The spell Vampiric Touch is listed as one of Vaarsuvius' spells, when the FAQ shortly below it says that the list may be inaccurate. As Vaarsuvius has shown no signs of using Vampiric Touch, would it be completely unacceptable to make a note or some such about it's existence being in doubt, as the only evidence is a comic in which several of the spells are inaccurate in any case.

On the other hand, it was between two spells that Vaarsuvius' actually had, so it is entirely possible that the existence of Vampiric Touch can be inferred from that.

Thoughts?

And as for the issue of the belt; make a note that it a "+4/+6 Belt of Giant Strength" in Roy's possession or some such~

Dark Matter

2009-10-24, 08:49 PM

We should just remove Vampiric Touch from V's spell list. She can't know it herself, it's Necromancy and that's one of her barred schools. At best she had a scroll with it that she could have traded.

Olorin Maia

2009-10-24, 08:57 PM

No debate. We actually see 3 in one panel in 611.

I've been searching 611 but I can't see three daggers in any single panel. Which one is it?

Lira

2009-10-24, 09:02 PM

I've been searching 611 but I can't see three daggers in any single panel. Which one is it?

Panel 18. There's two daggers in a guy and one at Belkar's side.

Forbiddenwar

2009-10-25, 02:30 AM

Does the fact that Belker mentions a major magic item mean anything about the belt?

If it is a +6 Belt of Giant Strength, then it would be a major magic item. If it was a +4 Belt, then it would be a medium magic item.
However, I don't think we should go by what belkar says. Otherwise we would have to put Redcloak at 17th level. And give Belkar divine ranks. And other messes.

SinsI

2009-10-25, 05:30 AM

We should just remove Vampiric Touch from V's spell list. She can't know it herself, it's Necromancy and that's one of her barred schools. At best she had a scroll with it that she could have traded.
It has been discussed times and times again - since V was created with 3.0, he only had to choose one barred school, so he does know Vampiric Touch. Anything else - i.e. that he had to bar another school during upgrade to 3.5 - is a completely unfounded speculation that is 100% subject to house rules and as such has no place in this thread. In fact, since he offers to trade it after the upgrade, it is an indication that he still has it.

Wrecan

2009-10-25, 06:55 AM

V can have the spell in V's spellbook without being able to cast it, thus being able to offer it to Zz'dtri even if V couldn't cast it. This would be a relic of the change from 3.0 to 3.5.

I've added Roy's belt and Belkar's gift.

Dark Matter

2009-10-25, 09:39 AM

It has been discussed times and times again - since V was created with 3.0, he only had to choose one barred school, so he does know Vampiric Touch. Anything else - i.e. that he had to bar another school during upgrade to 3.5 - is a completely unfounded speculation that is 100% subject to house rules and as such has no place in this thread.Interesting argument. On the other hand we've never seen him cast a necro spell.

In fact, since he offers to trade it after the upgrade, it is an indication that he still has it.Perhaps. There are three flaws with this argument. First, he doesn't need to know the spell himself in order to trade it. Second, I seriously doubt that he knows Wish.

Third, and most importantly, the burden of evidence isn't on me to prove what he doesn't have. Let's reverse the argument. What evidence do we have that he *has* Vampiric Touch, and is that evidence enough to put it on his spell list? IMHO that off hand comment isn't enough to prove that he can cast it, especially with everything else.

Zone

2009-10-25, 11:12 AM

I want to point out that we don't precisely know if Roy's belt is +2, +4 or +6. Our only evidence is Roy's assumption ("Ooh, shiny new magic item! It must be either +4 or +6 since we are high level adventurers.") and if Roy doesn't know if the belt is +4 or +6, I'd say he wouldn't know if it is +2 either. Just my two cents.

Edit: Ach, Wrecan just listed a "belt of giant strength", without any numbers. Stupid me.

Kish

2009-10-25, 11:15 AM

Isn't a familiar's alignment the same as his master's? (So that Blackwing should be listed as the same as Vaarsuvius, not as True Neutral.)

Wrecan

2009-10-25, 11:54 AM

Isn't a familiar's alignment the same as his master's?
Nope. Nothing in the familiar rules says the familiar's alignment is different than the base creature. Improved familiars require the familiar to be no more than one step form the caster's alignment. Blackwing is not an improved familiar.

Yendor

2009-10-25, 12:43 PM

Having a raven familiar should give V +3 to Appraise checks.

tyckspoon

2009-10-25, 12:46 PM

derfenrirwolv

2009-10-25, 01:58 PM

nteresting argument. On the other hand we've never seen him cast a necro spell.

Well, unless he was about to cast it in the first panel of the first page, the strip had already converted to 3.5 that would have been his only chance to cast a necro spell.. whatever he had in his head.

Random832

2009-10-25, 02:07 PM

Well, unless he was about to cast it in the first panel of the first page, the strip had already converted to 3.5 that would have been his only chance to cast a necro spell.. whatever he had in his head.

That doesn't make sense. If V's barred schools changed (adding necromancy as you suppose) in the conversion, then it would be his fault that he doesn't have access to Teleport, since it would mean he had the opportunity to change it around.

Kurald Galain

2009-10-25, 06:45 PM

It has been discussed times and times again - since V was created with 3.0, he only had to choose one barred school, so he does know Vampiric Touch.

I'm reasonably sure that 3E evokers had three barred schools, not one. You know, because evocation was considered the strongest school of magic by the WOTC design team.

Kish

2009-10-25, 07:02 PM

I'm reasonably sure that 3E evokers had three barred schools, not one. You know, because evocation was considered the strongest school of magic by the WOTC design team.
It didn't work like that.

A specialist in a first-tier school, Conjuration, Evocation, or Transmutation, had a choice of barring: Another first-tier school. Two second-tier schools (Enchantment, Abjuration, Illusion). Three schools, including both third-tier schools (Divination, Necromancy).

As an evoker with Conjuration barred, Vaarsuvius wouldn't have needed to choose any other schools to bar.

Forbiddenwar

2009-10-25, 07:27 PM

Sorry for the stupid question. I'm sure this has been covered by length in a previous conversation, but I just can't find it.
What evidence is there for Necromancy being one of V's barred school? Is it because we have seen her cast spells from every other school?

EDIT: okay, yes we have seen her cast every other spell school besides necromancy.

Kish

2009-10-25, 07:36 PM

Sorry for the stupid question. I'm sure this has been covered by length in a previous conversation, but I just can't find it.
What evidence is there for Necromancy being one of V's barred school? Is it because we have seen her cast spells from every other school?
Partly that, partly that the three souls the fiends offered to shore up Vaarsuvius' deficits were a conjurer, a necromancer, and a sorcerer.

Dark Matter

2009-10-25, 09:03 PM

Partly that, partly that the three souls the fiends offered to shore up Vaarsuvius' deficits were a conjurer, a necromancer, and a sorcerer.Exactly. And considering the OOTS has been fighting the undead from day one, there are lots of 'hose undead' spells that have been conspicuously absent from V's arsenal. Control Undead. Undeath to dead. Halt Undead. The implied problem is 'hose undead' spells are normally necro spells.

One would think a Wizard constantly fighting the undead would use those if she could, especially when she knows that's exactly what she'll be facing and she has access to a kingdom's magic library. Granted, that's arguing from absence rather from presence, but it's still reasonably strong.

If we reverse the burden of proof, i.e. if we say we have to prove V can cast V-Touch before we add it to her list, then I think it's pretty clear that spell shouldn't be there.

SinsI

2009-10-26, 01:24 AM

Don't forget that V is not a spontaneous caster, he must select his spells ahead of time - and this makes anything too specific a bad choice.

Control Undead is a 7th level spell, V might have had no opportunity to learn/cast it yet; Undeath to Death is a 6th level spell, requires a pricey material component and kills ~35HD of undead enemies in a burst radius, weaklings first - not a very interesting choice for someone that already has lots of very good destructive spells. Halt Undead is a 3rd level spell, stops only up to 3 enemies (Will negates)- Fireball serves as a better utility spell...

Shale

2009-10-26, 01:38 AM

Also remember that V had no particular tendency toward fighting the undead before going to Dorukon's dungeon, and once they were done there they thought they were done with Xykon. The only time s/he's fought undead with time to prepare for it (other than the time under the soul splice) was at the battle of Azure City, where the enemy was undead and hobgoblins, with the numbers weighted heavily toward the hobgoblins. Spells that just targeted undead would have been a liability.

RMS Oceanic

2009-10-26, 02:07 AM

I'm reasonably sure that 3E evokers had three barred schools, not one. You know, because evocation was considered the strongest school of magic by the WOTC design team.

Not if they opted to only bar Conjuration, which we know is what Vaarsuvius chose.

Dark Matter

2009-10-26, 08:10 AM

...Spells that just targeted undead would have been a liability.The crew has confronted X twice with time to prepare (final battle in Dorukon's dungeon and at Azure City). X is this big time necromancer and V had his ass handed to him both times by undead.

And even that understates the issue. Back when V was casting "hose Belkar" spells left and right, where was Ray of Exhaustion? Ray of Enfeeblement? Bestow Curse? Contagion? Fear? Waves of Fatigue?

V has had lots of opportunity and reason to use Necro spells. Yeah, you can explain one or two or three incidents as one offs where he chose to do something else, but in 687 scripts he's *never* done so?

And with that backing you up, you want Vampiric Touch on his spell list because of a conversation where he mentioned other spells that he clearly can't use?

The assumption should be that he can't use it. Sure, if he *ever* casts a necro spell then we can revisit this, but at this point that's seriously unlikely.

derfenrirwolv

2009-10-26, 09:53 AM

That doesn't make sense. If V's barred schools changed (adding necromancy as you suppose) in the conversion, then it would be his fault that he doesn't have access to Teleport, since it would mean he had the opportunity to change it around.

You're assuming the ootsverse is being run by a fair DM.

This is how it looks like it works

V makes a 3.0 evoker and bans conjuration (baring mage armor, not a bad idea, since clerics can summon monsters and you don't need to conjur thrown objects when you can blast)

At some point, he adds vampiric touch to his spellbook (a nice choice)

The 3.5 conversion comes around. V has to ban another school. He bans necromancy.

(mostly as a joke) Vampiric touch is left in the spellbook, taking up valuable (and expensive) pages. He has no choice in selecting a different barred school now that conjuration is crucial, he's stuck with the choice he made in 3.0 . Yes its cruel, yes its unfair, but it fits with everything we know.

Random832

2009-10-26, 09:58 AM

That makes sense* - either V's barred schools are the same (i.e. only one) as under 3.0 or they are not.

My guess would be that V had the opportunity to change it, but waved it off, and is being dishonest in claiming later that it's all because of the conversion

*EDIT: Meant to write "that makes no sense"

Dark Matter

2009-10-26, 10:45 AM

Something to point out is the entire 3.5 conversion was a joke since it happened on the first strip. We don't need to worry about how the conversion was handled since V wasn't created as a 3.0 character, he was created as a 3.5 character (since that's what Rich would need to live with) and then "conversion" jokes were thrown in.

Rich doesn't want V to have teleport, he's had far too much fun writing up the crew's transits between missions, so that school is banned. Throwing fireballs and lightning is easy to understand (for the new readers and non-gamers) and makes for good special effects, thus that's V's focus.

Necromancy has thus been banned from strip one unless Rich chooses to house rule an exception with this whole conversion thing... and so far he hasn't.

Moogleking

2009-10-26, 12:25 PM

I find myself questioning how 556 shows Durkon's level.

Zone

2009-10-26, 12:48 PM

I find myself questioning how 556 shows Durkon's level.

Holy Word is a level 7 spell, and thus Durkon must be at the very least level 13 to cast it.

Unless, of course, it is Daigo casting the spell, which I actually find quite likely. I mean, how did he survive through the whole battle of the Azure City unless he had several cleric levels around?

Moogleking

2009-10-26, 12:53 PM

Huh all this time I thought Durkon was swearing <_<

Darius1020

2009-10-26, 01:06 PM

why don't you have any of durkon's spells up there?

Shale

2009-10-26, 01:08 PM

Durkon is a cleric. He can choose from every spell in the book when he prepares them in the morning.

Balmas

2009-10-26, 01:09 PM

I'm not sure as to whether anyone else has said anything about Redcloak, so here's what I have.

He's a cleric of at least 15th level. (He can cast 8th level spells [Extended Summon Monster 7, page 451], his Blade Barrier does 15d6 points of damage.)

One of his domains is Destruction. (He can Smite [Start of Darkness], and he can cast Disintegrate [As seen on page 480, panel 9. Disintegrate is a Lvl 7 Destruction spell]).

He has either Spell Focus (Necromancy) or a Wisdom greater than 20. (On page 456, the cleric against whom Redcloak is duelling fails his save against Destruction on a total of 21. The standard saving throw DC against Destruction is 17+Wisdom modifier. We know Redcloak has a wisdom of at least 18, because he can cast eight level spells. Therefore, if Redcloak had neither Spell Focus (Necromancy) nor a wisdom of at least 20, the opposing cleric would have made his saving throw on a result of 21.)

Darius1020

2009-10-26, 01:19 PM

Durkon is a cleric. He can choose from every spell in the book when he prepares them in the morning.

ohh, thanks, i don't play D&D, so... yeah...

derfenrirwolv

2009-10-26, 01:44 PM

That makes no sense* - either V's barred schools are the same (i.e. only one) as under 3.0 or they are not.

What doesn't make sense about it? They start the 3.5 conversion and V has to loose another school because he's a specialist with only one banned school. That he gets the full benefits of specialization with only one barred school is not a given. That he gets to change a school he already barred is not a given.
The options are not limited to

1) "you get to keep one barred school"

2) "pick two new barred schools".

it can be

3) Pick ANOTHER barred school.. and i'm not letting you change your first barred school.

That he had already banned conjuration is evidenced by his telling belkar that it wasn't his fault the underlying physics of the universe had changed. He COULD be lying but we have no reason to assume this. Option 3 really sucks.. but that's life.

Forbiddenwar

2009-10-26, 01:59 PM

Doug Lampert

2009-10-26, 03:58 PM

3) Pick ANOTHER barred school.. and i'm not letting you change your first barred school.

But, but, but that would be as unfair and unreasonable as, say, forcing a dagger wielding halfling Ranger to change his weapons to small daggers during the shift when they changed the weapon size rules.

Oh yeah. They did that one too. Weapon shrinkage....

The conversion was NOT done in a reasonable manner. That's part of the joke. You have to leave Conjuration bared and also pick another school is completely consistent.

Dark Matter

2009-10-28, 12:49 PM

3) Pick ANOTHER barred school.. and i'm not letting you change your first barred school. This appears to be what "happened"... although a lot of this is retroactive justification.

That he had already banned conjuration is evidenced by his telling belkar that it wasn't his fault the underlying physics of the universe had changed. He COULD be lying but we have no reason to assume this. Option 3 really sucks.. but that's life.I don't understand why Option 3 sucks.

Shale

2009-10-28, 02:04 PM

Dark Matter

2009-10-28, 03:04 PM

When V chose to bar Conjuration, s/he was choosing to bar all the spells listed as Conjuration in 3e. When 3.5e happened, the spells that fall under "Conjuration" changed, but, under option 3, V didn't get the chance to revisit that decision. S/he simply had to accept that spells that were available under non-barred schools before were now part of a barred school, even if, had those spells been part of Conjuration in the first place, V would have chosen not to bar the school.Ah. I see the line of reasoning now, but I don't agree with it.

V was *never* a 3.0 character. She was 3.5 at the end of the first comic. She was built by Rich as a 3.5, and her 3.0 history has been backdated, including the part about not banning Conjuration if she'd known teleport was there.

In reality V doesn't have Conjuration *because* Rich didn't want her to have teleport. Imagine how different the comic would be if V had teleport. Literally hundreds of comics have involved the crew in transit from one place to another.

Similarly her other banned school has been Necro from day one, and we have never seen any rulings by Rich that she's been house ruled otherwise. By 3.5 rules, she needs two banned schools. Yes, Rich *could* house rule an exception but he's never indicated that he has and as such our default should be that she can't cast necro spells.

Grey Watcher

2009-10-28, 03:32 PM

Ah. I see the line of reasoning now, but I don't agree with it.

V was *never* a 3.0 character. She was 3.5 at the end of the first comic. She was built by Rich as a 3.5, and her 3.0 history has been backdated, including the part about not banning Conjuration if she'd known teleport was there.

In reality V doesn't have Conjuration *because* Rich didn't want her to have teleport. Imagine how different the comic would be if V had teleport. Literally hundreds of comics have involved the crew in transit from one place to another.

...

Ultimately, both explanations are correct. From the external perspective of a writer telling a story, yes, teleportation in the hands of a protagonist is an extremely difficult thing to work with. But, within the context of the world's rules, you need a reason why the character can't do that. Willingly cutting yourself off from the ability to teleport is a silly decision, even if you never intend to use any other Conjuration spells, ever. So, given the fact that, in-universe, there was a rule change, it makes a good explanation, in-character, why V might make such a daft decision.

Yeah, Vaarsuvius didn't exist until Rich Burlew sat down to write OOTS #1, but he's been given a history, as fictional as he is himself, that extends prior to that comic, which includes his decision to ban Conjuration.

I'm suddenly filled with an urge to re-read Six Characters in Search of an Author....