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View Full Version : [3.5] Am I too strong?



Burley
2009-09-23, 06:46 AM
I finally made my beguiler last night, and at 9th level, the save DC on my first level spells is (a possible) 21.
10 + 8 (26 Int) + 1 (spell level) + 1 (spell focus if enchantment or illusion) + 1(cloaked casting).
I did gimp myself a bit by taking a bad-caster progression PrC, but the character needed it.

Kizara
2009-09-23, 06:56 AM
Don't recall what Cloaked Casting does, but otherwise the character is strong but not cheesy.

Honestly, this is the sort of build (maxing casting stat, taking spell focus) that I would expect of my players. I might be disappointed, but its what I would be looking for. :smalltongue:

Eldariel
2009-09-23, 07:00 AM
Eh, no more than any other caster; the save DCs just happen to be pretty high. Bleh.

wadledo
2009-09-23, 07:13 AM
Meh, your character is useless against anything that doesn't have to make a will save (constructs, undead).
You are not in any way overpowered.

KillianHawkeye
2009-09-23, 07:16 AM
26 Int at 9th level seems a little high to me, but I tend to play in relatively unoptimized games most of the time. I guess it's alright if it's the main focus of your character, though.

tyckspoon
2009-09-23, 07:25 AM
26 Int at 9th level seems a little high to me, but I tend to play in relatively unoptimized games most of the time. I guess it's alright if it's the main focus of your character, though.

18 starting value, +Int race, +2 levelups, +4 item. It's pretty easy to do for a caster class.. Str-based characters have much worse racial choices.

KillianHawkeye
2009-09-23, 07:36 AM
18 starting value, +Int race, +2 levelups, +4 item. It's pretty easy to do for a caster class.. Str-based characters have much worse racial choices.

Like I said, it's alright if it's the main focus of your character. I just don't see it too often in actual play, but that's more a function of my group and our play style. It's not like I said it was impossible. :smallbiggrin:

Burley
2009-09-23, 07:52 AM
18 starting value, +Int race, +2 levelups, +4 item. It's pretty easy to do for a caster class.. Str-based characters have much worse racial choices.

It's something like this. It's an obscure (yet in print) campaign setting called dawnforge. On top of the 28 point buy, I up with a +4 con, +2 int, +2 dex, +2 cha, -2 str by tenth level. All player races have similar ability adjustments.
Then, there are things known as Legendary points which allow you to not only gain a +1 in an ability score (which I did twice), but lets you change the ability modifier of certain skills. I moved bluff and diplomacy to Intelligence, which ended up giving me a +7 to both. :smallbiggrin:

Also, I just realized that I have ~24,000gp left to spend. I'm off!

Eldariel
2009-09-23, 07:58 AM
Meh, your character is useless against anything that doesn't have to make a will save (constructs, undead).
You are not in any way overpowered.

This isn't...entirely true. Mind-affecting immunity doesn't protect against all Will-save spells for starters (so Slows & Glitterdusts are still useful regardless, though Glitterdust can be negated by other factors), and Beguiler has wonderful abilities even against things that don't need to make Will-saves.

Most importantly, they can never save against Images so they're bound believing the Image is real as long as it lasts. No matter how many times the Golem's attacks go through the image, it's bound to keep attacking it (provided its orders are to kill intruders).


Also, ally buffs like Haste, Invisibility and company grace Beguiler's spell list. That and the wonderful Legion of Sentinels. Also, Advanced Learning gives Beguilers access to Shadow Conjuration/Evocation to further versatilize their offense.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-23, 08:14 AM
This isn't...entirely true. Mind-affecting immunity doesn't protect against all Will-save spells for starters (so Slows & Glitterdusts are still useful regardless, though Glitterdust can be negated by other factors), and Beguiler has wonderful abilities even against things that don't need to make Will-saves.


Wait, back that on up... what stops glitterdust?

Eldariel
2009-09-23, 08:27 AM
Wait, back that on up... what stops glitterdust?

Not having vision.

Cyclocone
2009-09-23, 08:30 AM
Wait, back that on up... what stops glitterdust?

The various "sixth senses" like blindsight, touchsight etc.

Talya
2009-09-23, 08:34 AM
I finally made my beguiler last night, and at 9th level, the save DC on my first level spells is (a possible) 21.
10 + 8 (26 Int) + 1 (spell level) + 1 (spell focus if enchantment or illusion) + 1(cloaked casting).
I did gimp myself a bit by taking a bad-caster progression PrC, but the character needed it.

My 17th level sorcerer (sortof) DCs for enchantments are a possible 25 + spell level.

Don't sweat it.

ericgrau
2009-09-23, 09:53 AM
Typically at that level you'd have at most a +4 int item, an average base int of 16, +2 int from levels and no cloaked casting. So your DCs are 3 points "too high". That's quite signicant, but boosting from a race here, high stats there, a splatbook feat there, etc. is also quite common. If the rest of the party gets similar boosts, and ideally the monsters as well, then I don't see a major issue.

Person_Man
2009-09-23, 10:07 AM
You're fine. For extra fun, ask another player in the party to be a debuff build, like Bard or Hexblade/Blackguard.

Kaiyanwang
2009-09-23, 10:08 AM
Typically at that level you'd have at most a +4 int item, an average base int of 16, +2 int from levels and no cloaked casting. So your DCs are 3 points "too high". That's quite signicant, but boosting from a race here, high stats there, a splatbook feat there, etc. is also quite common. If the rest of the party gets similar boosts, and ideally the monsters as well, then I don't see a major issue.

Same for me.. more or less 3 point "too high" but nothing game breaking, expecially if the other party members are more on less on your power level and the DM is aware of it.

@ immune monster: rmember that if monsters you face are immune to most of your spell, there are some that anyway work like Halt, or you can simply buff the party with haste, and so on..


You're fine. For extra fun, ask another player in the party to be a debuff build, like Bard or Hexblade/Blackguard.

IMHO, good advice.
My players recently buit a party around this. most of the "combos" are around the Ranger//Beguiler + Bard//Hexblade (and others about the CReflexes Rogue//Psywar/Avenger +Ranger//Hexblade) but the mechanics are similar.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-23, 10:35 AM
The various "sixth senses" like blindsight, touchsight etc.

True but blindsight has a range limit, and touch sight is not magical (psionic).

Eldariel
2009-09-23, 10:58 AM
True but blindsight has a range limit, and touch sight is not magical (psionic).

As I said, some creatures lack visual sense (say, Oozes and certain Undead) and as such are not subject to Glitterdust. That, as far as I know, is the only immunity available.

Burley
2009-09-23, 11:38 AM
Most importantly, they can never save against Images so they're bound believing the Image is real as long as it lasts. No matter how many times the Golem's attacks go through the image, it's bound to keep attacking it (provided its orders are to kill intruders).


Okay, people keep saying this, but I need to know where this is stated, because I don't think it'll fly at my table without a page number.

crazedloon
2009-09-23, 11:58 AM
it could be worse you could have made yourself old and gained +3 more int or had great spell focus :smallwink:

Burley
2009-09-23, 12:21 PM
it could be worse you could have made yourself old and gained +3 more int or had great spell focus :smallwink:

I will have Greater Spell focus at my next feat, so... yeah.

I'm gonna spoiler my list of equipment, so, could people let me know if it's okay?
Also, ring slots and hand slots are different slots, yeah?

32000g

Boots of the Winterland- 2,500
Hand of the Mage- 900
Ring of Protection +1- 2,000
Ring of Sustenance- 2,500
+1 Spellstoring Rapier-4,320
+1 Light Fortification, Spell Resistance 13, Mithril chain shirt- 7,100
Heward’s Handy Haversack- 2,000
Glove of Storing- 10,000

4 potions of Cure Light Wounds (1d8+1)- 200gp
3 (Master of Masks) masks- 300
Bedroll- .1
Winter Blanket- .5
Masterwork Thieve’s Tools- 100
----
99g 4s

Godskook
2009-09-23, 12:29 PM
Can you squeeze out 750gp for a healing belt instead of the potions?

ericgrau
2009-09-23, 12:35 PM
Yes, rings and hand/glove slots are separate.


As I said, some creatures lack visual sense (say, Oozes and certain Undead) and as such are not subject to Glitterdust. That, as far as I know, is the only immunity available.
It also depends how rules-savy the DM is.

Creatures with AoE abilities need a DC 0 listen check to get a rough location every time someone attacks/cast/etc. They don't have to worry about concealment so there isn't much of a downside unless they run out of uses or hit an ally.

Otherwise the spell is usually just a 50% miss chance for a creature with a halfway decent listen modifier. It's bound to make that DC 20 check against something (to get a precise square), since it gets one every time someone attacks/casts/etc. And a more difficult check every time someone moves if its ears are really keen.

Eldariel
2009-09-23, 12:50 PM
Okay, people keep saying this, but I need to know where this is stated, because I don't think it'll fly at my table without a page number.

I'm not sure where it's stated, but it's a logical derivation of Nonability in Int; creatures without Int cannot deduct or rationalize anything and as such, they can never actually realize the illusion is not real.


Otherwise the spell is usually just a 50% miss chance for a creature with a halfway decent listen modifier. It's bound to make that DC 20 check against something (to get a precise square), since it gets one every time someone attacks/casts/etc. And a more difficult check every time someone moves if its ears are really keen.

That part depends; if fighting against single, blinded opponent, the party may specifically adjust their tactics to act first, move after on each round forcing it to at least make the Move Silently DC to get the exact square. But yeah, it's often possible for the blinded creatures to use Listen to localize something, though in a sufficiently convoluted battlefield and/or with unfamiliar allies, it may be impossible for it to tell an ally from an enemy.

That said, 50% miss chance tends to be plenty good already, not to mention the other effects (all opponents strike as invisible, causing him to lose Dex-bonus to AC and taking a static -2, moves at half speed and take -4 to Search & many Str & Dex-checks; IIRC vs. Tripping, among others).

EDIT: Oh, it also negates the creature's capability to make AoOs and use targeted spells (outside doing a melee touch attack at any rate; you can cast targeted spells vs. targets you touch).

Ernir
2009-09-23, 02:11 PM
Being "too strong" is something that depends less on what your save DCs are, and more on what your party members will be playing.

Your party members are mostly-core Fighters and Monks: You are likely to overshadow them, you are too strong.

Your party members are competent full casters or very good bruisers: You should fit in!

Your party members are using their WBL to buy PAO castings and becoming Beholder Mages: You will be the underoptimized party clown.

SparkMandriller
2009-09-23, 05:59 PM
+1 Spellstoring Rapier-4,320
+1 Light Fortification, Spell Resistance 13, Mithril chain shirt- 7,100

You don't calculate the prices for each enchantment then add them together, you add them together then calculate the price based on the total. So your chain shirt has +1 from being +1, +2 from the spell resistance, and +1 from the fortification, meaning it's priced as a +4 item and costs 17100. The rapier's 8320.

Be kinda silly if you could get a whole stack of +1s for 2000 each. High level characters would end up taking pretty much the whole list.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-23, 06:08 PM
I finally made my beguiler last night, and at 9th level, the save DC on my first level spells is (a possible) 21.
10 + 8 (26 Int) + 1 (spell level) + 1 (spell focus if enchantment or illusion) + 1(cloaked casting).
I did gimp myself a bit by taking a bad-caster progression PrC, but the character needed it.

I mainly play wizards, so I can't say anything, other than they should be kissing your butt for not taking Shadowcraft Mage :xykon:

Bang
2009-09-23, 06:21 PM
This sort of question confuses me. We don't know your group or its play style.

You might be overoptimized enough to make the party Bard cry, you might be underoptimized enough to never land a spell. Your campaign might feature enough insects, constructs and undead to turn you into a glorified expert.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-23, 07:42 PM
I'm not sure where it's stated, but it's a logical derivation of Nonability in Int; creatures without Int cannot deduct or rationalize anything and as such, they can never actually realize the illusion is not real.

At what point did "immunity to mind-affecting effects" suddenly imply nonability in Intelligence? It might be a plurality, maybe even a majority, but by no means are all constructs/undead/mind-shielded creatures mindless.

Tavar
2009-09-23, 07:49 PM
At what point did "immunity to mind-affecting effects" suddenly imply nonability in Intelligence? It might be a plurality, maybe even a majority, but by no means are all constructs/undead/mind-shielded creatures mindless.

Going by what he's said previously, he meant for the always fails vs images line to only apply to Golems/mindless undead/other mindless creatures.