"My Mommy Went to Heaven Last Year" (Speculation)

[kpenguin]

So... a popular theory on these boards holds that Haley is half-celestial. The recent statement in the comic might be construed to support that.

Discuss!

[Morty]

Like most "popular theories" found on message boards, the one stating that Haley is half-celestial doesn't have much support except for the lack of any definite contradiction. And I don't see how little Haley's statement supports it either.

[chiasaur11]

Well, I gotta say this one comes closer to evidence than most.

Haley said her mom left because she wasn't good enough. Not true, presumably, but dying seldom leaves one with that assumption.

And given that Ian said her "Went to heaven" was true...

Not concrete, but closer to evidence than anything before now.

[Shale]

Haley said her mom left because she wasn't good enough. Not true, presumably, but dying seldom leaves one with that assumption.


Not rational people, no, but young children blame themselves for loved ones leaving or dying all the time.

[t_catt11]

Huh. Well, while I won't rule this out entirely, I really don't see any reason to come to this conclusion. Children often refer to a dead loved one as having "gone to Heaven" - I didn't blink at the statement.

I still think this is far more plausible than the celestial theory, but hey, whatever.

[FabuVinny]

Haley said her mom left because she wasn't good enough. Not true, presumably, but dying seldom leaves one with that assumption.Nope. The commentary in War and XPs says that she's really dead.

[chiasaur11]

Not rational people, no, but young children blame themselves for loved ones leaving or dying all the time.

Maybe, but still blaming herself twenty years down the line?

Even given her emotional issues (or even full on trade paperbacks) I don't see that happening. And note the term "left" in 311. As I said, not firm evidence, but...

[Manga Shoggoth]

"...and all I got was this lousy T-shirt!"


Sorry. It's been a long day...

[brandr]

I doubt Haley would be half celestial. There are traits associated with the offspring of a human and a full celestial being. I can't really see any of those portrayed in Haley (portrait wise), and any associated abilities or bonuses are unidentifiable, considering we don't really know her level. it's like attempting to find position without knowing time.

[Shale]

Maybe, but still blaming herself twenty years down the line?

Sure. If growing up was enough to fix that, we wouldn't need nearly as many therapists in the world.

[Funky Goose]

Nope. The commentary in War and XPs says that she's really dead.

If we define being dead as TRAPED in antother (celestial?) plane etc.

[Amarsir]

Consider the possibility that the wording was chosen specifically to mess with those who are keeping the theory alive, even though we'll later see that there's no truth to it.

[chiasaur11]

Consider the possibility that the wording was chosen specifically to mess with those who are keeping the theory alive, even though we'll later see that there's no truth to it.

I can buy that.

[pendell]

I am a proponent of the half-celestial theory, but this isn't really evidence as such. It's ambiguous. It could mean that she literally went to heaven, or that she died. It's certainly a common euphemism.

It would seem, at first glance, to imply that Haley's mom was one of the three good alignments. But that still doesn't necessarily follow. Haley, after all, is only a small child with a child's understanding. I see no reason why we should necessarily credit her explanation or the final destination. If I heard it from the high priest of Thor in-game, that'd be a different story.

More information is needed before we can definitively quash or prove the speculation.

The reason I thought she might have celestial ancestry is becuase of the comment in the commentary of a previous book that she and Sabine were opposites in more ways than were immediately obvious, but that the Giant hadn't revealed it yet.

At this point it seems unlikely that Haley would be half-celestial but not completely impossible. Granted she has evidenced neither abilities nor traits of a half-celestial -- but she's a rogue. And we see she's been taught from childhood to conceal the truth about herself. The truth about any unnatural traits or abilities she had would be at the very
top of the list of things to conceal.

Then again, it could be that she doesn't manifest traits or abilities because she just doesn't have them. Occam's razor favors that explanation.

I guess .. for me, it is something I would *like* to be true, but that doesn't mean it *is* true. The preponderance of evidence does not support the theory at this time, but it is not definitively ruled out.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Athaniar]

If we define being dead as TRAPED in antother (celestial?) plane etc.

That's not a definition of dead I've ever heard before.

But this commentary, was it written from the Giant's perspective or from a character's perspective?

[Rhydeble]

That's not a definition of dead I've ever heard before.

Wait, you mean you haven't even read the entire archive?

Remember a certain prophecy?

[Shale]

Remember where the person who said it didn't believe it either?

[Herald Alberich]

I guess .. for me, it is something I would *like* to be true, but that doesn't mean it *is* true. The preponderance of evidence does not support the theory at this time, but it is not definitively ruled out.

This is basically my position as well. I think the evidence lines up a bit better than you do, maybe, but it's all circumstantial and nothing solid (actual demonstrated extraordinary/supernatural abilities, for example). It would be cool for it to turn out that way, and just fine not to.

[Lecan]

Remember where the person who said it didn't believe it either?
He didn't believe his rationalization that the prophecy had been fulfilled. Basically, he was saying he knew his explanation was full of crap and didn't expect even Belkar to buy it. The quoted statement will probably never stop coming back. It seems like some people don't read the comic.

Back on topic, I really don't understand why anyone would think that Haley being half-celestial is a reasonable guess at this point. Anyone care to point out the supporting arguments?

[Shale]

I'm confused. Did you just agree with me and then say it's like I don't even read the comic?

[Kish]

Back on topic, I really don't understand why anyone would think that Haley being half-celestial is a reasonable guess at this point. Anyone care to point out the supporting arguments?
As far as I can tell, the supporting arguments go, "Sabine is a fiend. Haley's sense of inadequacy must have more behind it than psychological issues of Haley's. Humans are boring. Haley didn't finish her sentence in #309."

[Trebuchet]

Maybe, but still blaming herself twenty years down the line?

Even given her emotional issues (or even full on trade paperbacks) I don't see that happening.

I once had a friend who was in his 80s, and he was still trying to please his father, who had been dead for about 50 years. Yes, people can and do hang on to pain like that for decades. It isn't even unusual, though that was the most extreme case I ever saw.

As Shale said, kids do often blame themselves for parents dying. Adults don't handle it that well, either. I think Haley is a very self-consistent character, with good character growth, and this is a believable part of it. I never bought the half-celestial idea, but if she is, my face will be red.

[Sewblon]

Not rational people, no, but young children blame themselves for loved ones leaving or dying all the time. Shale has it right. Maybe she simply assumed that her mother went to heaven because she was a child at the time.

[NerfTW]

Nope. The commentary in War and XPs says that she's really dead.

Where does it say that?

[Athaniar]

Wait, you mean you haven't even read the entire archive?

Remember a certain prophecy?

Please link me to the strip with the prophecy that defines dead as trapped in another plane, then. I'm not doubting its existance... well, I am, actually.

[Vemynal]

it could also be the giant poking fun at people for thinking shes half-celestial...

does anyone remember why its half "celestial" anyways? there are a lot of other things she could be half of so im just curious if anyone remembers

[The MunchKING]

it could also be the giant poking fun at people for thinking shes half-celestial...

does anyone remember why its half "celestial" anyways? there are a lot of other things she could be half of so im just curious if anyone remembers

Succubus oppisate

[Starbuck_II]

it could also be the giant poking fun at people for thinking shes half-celestial...

does anyone remember why its half "celestial" anyways? there are a lot of other things she could be half of so im just curious if anyone remembers

1/2 celestial is core so more people know about it.

[Shale]

"Trapped in Celestia" is defined, and then undefined, as death by the Oracle in Comic 567 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html).

[Jeivar]

Succubus oppisate

Hmm . . . Succubus opposite . . .

Would that be a creature that seduces people in order to convert them to Good? :smallsmile:

[yanmaodao]

But this commentary, was it written from the Giant's perspective or from a character's perspective?

It was the Giant saying that, not the perspective of an in-world character that can be rationalized away.

Of course, the book in which it was written was, I believe, DCF. So it could easily just be Sabine/Nale vs. Haley/Elan, which is what I think it referred to; Elan/Haley was just barely hinted at in the first book.

[Shale]

That was what I was thinking. We didn't get anything about Elan and Haley becoming a couple until they were well out of Dorukan's dungeon.

[JaxGaret]

As far as I can tell, the supporting arguments go, "Sabine is a fiend. Haley's sense of inadequacy must have more behind it than psychological issues of Haley's. Humans are boring. Haley didn't finish her sentence in #309."

Wait, really? That's all?

[pendell]

Wait, really? That's all?

Of course there's more to it than that. Wait one ...



It was the Giant saying that, not the perspective of an in-world character that can be rationalized away.


What page is that on? I have a copy of War and XPs and would like to read for myself.

Now, back to JaxGaret.

The speculation is based on two factors:
A) Earlier in the dinner sequence in Azure City, Haley started spilling secrets in the hope of breaking her Aphasia. One of the things she said was 'I'm not exactly what you'd call ...' then was interrupted.

B) In the Dungeon Crawlin' Fools books, the Giant stated that Sabine and Haley were opposite in more ways than were readily apparent.

Sabine is a demon/devil thing.

So if Haley is an opposite ...?

Of course, we know that Haley is at least half-human because we've seen her father in-comic twice. He's human , red-haired, and a first edition thief.

The preponderance of evidence is that Haley herself is fully human, descended of human parents. As others have argued since I advanced the hypothesis Haley has demonstrated neither the traits nor the abilities of a half-celestial.

Counter-argument: She's a rogue. She could be concealing them.
Counter-counter-argument: By that logic, she could be a polymorphed half-dragon half-treant. She could be concealing that too!

Another bit of evidence dropped on the 'con' pile is that Haley evidently told Elan everything about herself a couple strips ago. The revelation of being not fully human doesn't appear to be in the list... but then again, we don't really know *what* secrets Haley shared with Elan. The only one we know she shared for sure was the one about her father.

So: The most probable hypothesis is that Haley is full human, estimated probability 80%. Probability she is half-celestial: Approximately 10%. Other probabilities too low to be evaluated.

Be that as it may, the hypothesis has not been definitely ruled out yet. This the Giant could do by allowing us to see her full-human mother in the strip. The Giant could conclusively prove the hypothesis by revealing a celestial parent.

Since I am confident we *will* be seeing Haley's mom in some future strip at some point, I am content to wait until the moment of revelation. I will be pleased if she turns out to be half-celestial but not even slightly surprised if she turns out to be full human.

If she *does* turn out to be a polymorphed silver dragon or some such, I will fall out of my chair in shock. It's not like that particular conceit has never shown up in D&D before... but IMO it wasn't such a good idea then, either.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Jeivar]

Wait, really? That's all?

Well, that and the fact that webcomics are by nature a very slow-moving medium; So fans have an excessive amount of time to ponder every little detail on every panel and come up with crazy-ass theories.

I too have in the past bandied out the half-celestial/aasimar theory, just in an effort to divine just what her secret is. But I'm certainly not betting any money on it.

[Athaniar]

"Trapped in Celestia" is defined, and then undefined, as death by the Oracle in Comic 567 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html).

It's not really a prophecy, though, it's the Oracle heavily stretching the definition of death. But still, it may be important.

[The Extinguisher]

Wait, people thought she was half-celestial. I thought the theory for non-human was some sort of planetouched. You know, to explain how there are absolutely zero characteristics of half-outsider that Haley fits.

[David Argall]

311 and the current comic don't really combine well if Haley's mom is dead. Little Haley is too comfortable and big Haley too upset. [We can add that while Pa gives a full explanation for his behavior, his behavior makes a little more sense if Haley was close to revealing a real secret instead of a fact anybody could learn without much trouble.]

Of course, people can gain obsessions as well as lose them over time and we can't depend too much on stick figure expressions, but it does fit together better if Mom literally left to go to Heaven. It is still a dubious theory, but the current strip does give it a little support.

[kpenguin]

Obviously, she's half-dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html).:smalltongue:

[dps]

Not rational people, no, but young children blame themselves for loved ones leaving or dying all the time.

Especially if they commit suicide.

IF Haley's mom killed herself, and Haley blames herself, that would square both with her mom being dead, and Haley's self-doubt talking about her leaving because Haley wasn't good enough.

Don't know about the "in heaven" part though. I don't remember how suicide affects one's chances of getting into a good afterlife in standard DnD settings (actually, I don't think that I've ever even seen the issue addressed), much less in the OotS-verse.

[Nimrod's Son]

Hmm . . . Succubus opposite . . .

Would that be a creature that seduces people in order to convert them to Good? :smallsmile:
No, more like a creature that coldly ignores all attempts at affection, in order to convert them to good.

Y'know, a bit like Miko. :smallwink:


Of course, we know that Haley is at least half-human because we've seen her father in-comic twice. He's human , red-haired, and a first edition thief.
Unless it turns out that Ian is the one who's half-celestial, which leaves who knows how many possibilities for Haley? :smallwink:

I think the most likely explanation for the as-yet-unrevealed (at the time) way that Haley and Sabine were opposites is that Sabine is an unrestrained maneater who charmed her handsome blond dreamboat into doing her bidding, while Haley would have been more likely to watch hers wander off into the arms of another woman than risk telling him how she felt.

[Haven]

I think the most likely explanation for the as-yet-unrevealed (at the time) way that Haley and Sabine were opposites is that Sabine is an unrestrained maneater who charmed her handsome blond dreamboat into doing her bidding, while Haley would have been more likely to watch hers wander off into the arms of another woman than risk telling him how she felt.

Interesting possibility!

Though I do think this is potential evidence for Haley's half-celestial-hood; it's a cut-away as though it were either a joke or an expository flashback but "Ha ha! Her mom's dead!" isn't really much of either. However, the "went to Heaven" combined with the severity of the response may mean there's more to it.

I don't see the theory as plausible, but I do think it is interesting, and therefore worth talking about. Turning out to be half-celestial would be a fairly interesting twist on Haley's character, though I do think there should have been some foreshadowing by now. On the other hand, I think it might cheapen the impact of her fighting on behalf of the resistance in Azure City if it was "in the blood" and not just a lone human doing what she could.

[ChowGuy]

Especially if they commit suicide.

IF Haley's mom killed herself, and Haley blames herself, that would square both with her mom being dead, and Haley's self-doubt talking about her leaving because Haley wasn't good enough.

There's an simpler reason Haley would blame herself, if at least in her own mind her mother died because she "wasn't good enough." As in "Now Haley honey, be a good girl and keep a sharp eye out while I burgle this castle.... Gurk.... OMG! Mommy died because I wasn't good enough to spot that guard!

[kusje]

There's an simpler reason Haley would blame herself, if at least in her own mind her mother died because she "wasn't good enough." As in "Now Haley honey, be a good girl and keep a sharp eye out while I burgle this castle.... Gurk.... OMG! Mommy died because I wasn't good enough to spot that guard!


Except she was like 5 years old.

[Querzis]

Nope. The commentary in War and XPs says that she's really dead.

Considering the fact that a celestial is often a dead soul, I really dont see why one would exclude the other.

Anyway, yeah, the real reason why the Half-celestial theory came up is because Rich said Sabine was Haley opposite for another reason. People thought about it and this was the best we could come up with. And yes, 681 is actually a pretty big clue since, in comic 311 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html), she said her mom left. Not that she died. So yeah, as far as I'm concerned, thats pretty close to a proof.

And for those who say it could still make sense when Haley said: «Mom left us» if Haley mom commited suicide, I would like to point out that Haley keep talking after that and say : «And Kyran. And Rachel and...all the others. Everyone good and pure who gets close to me eventually leaves.» So are you guys supposed to be saying saying all those people also commited suicide?

[Shale]

It's possible for different departures to all be categorized as leaving. It's also possible for Mama Starshine to have left her husband and daughter, then died.

Also, wasn't that hint about Haley being Sabine's opposite in Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, before we found out that she was in love with Elan, mirroring Sabine's relationship with Nale?

[Asta Kask]

No, more like a creature that coldly ignores all attempts at affection, in order to convert them to good.

Wouldn't it be someone who has terribly bad sex with people - so bad that the victims become celibate and chaste thereafter?

[Dark Faun]

Like Nimrod's Son said, a bit like Miko. :smallwink:

About why Sabine and Haley are opposite, I agree with Nimrod's Son too.

[Turkish Delight]

Hmm . . . Succubus opposite . . .

Would that be a creature that seduces people in order to convert them to Good? :smallsmile:

Or a really ugly woman that adamantly refuses to put out in order to convert people to good.

Geez. No wonder the Abyss alone outnumbers the good guys infinity to one.

[Lvl45DM!]

If she was hiding her heritage dont you think she wouldve brought out some big guns when getting double teamed by Bozzok and Crystal?
or you know SABINE?
nah shes not a half celestial itd be bad writing

[Turkish Delight]

Don't Aasimar get some pretty mild powers that wouldn't automatically give them away from a normal human immediately? Maybe the blood is a bit thinner than Haley being an out-and-out Half-Celestial.

[Scarlet Knight]

So: The most probable hypothesis is that Haley is full human, estimated probability 80%. Probability she is half-celestial: Approximately 10%. Other probabilities too low to be evaluated...

If she *does* turn out to be a polymorphed silver dragon or some such, I will fall out of my chair in shock.

Well, then, it's a sure thing, ain't it?

10 % is unlikely, but we all know Probability serves Drama as would a copper-piece harlot...
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html

:smallredface:

[JosephHeller]

I don't normally jump in to these kinds of threads, but I may have an idea. It's only speculation, and trying to say it's anything more is pretty silly.

First off, remember what Rich said when we pissed him off on the Thor issue, nothing is canon unless specifically stated as so in the strip. Loki could actually be a lock with legs, and god of all cheese, for all we know. We don't know what the rules for half-celestials is in Burleworld. It might not even be possible, or leave the child no different than any human.

I've got a couple ideas, or theories, based on the evidence presented. I have a few cold, hard assumptions in these idea here, so take it all with a grain of salt.

1. Haley's mother is a half-celestial. Assuming this was house-ruled into making her an Aasimar, it would explain the lack of wings, not to mention it could be partially responsible for her Wisdom and Charisma. It leaves the issue of not having those eyes and hair, but we do have to keep in mind that Burleworld is NOT Greyhawk.

2. Haley's mother is a Risen Martyr, or at least something similar. This also explains the lack of celestial features, as well as "goes to heaven". If her "mission" was related to Haley, then Haley could end up having a very good justification for blaming herself for her mother leaving. (Note: Justification, not reason.)

3. Haley's mother was stuck in a situation and needed saving, (ala Lucca's mother) in a way that requires some Rogue skill (Open Lock?), and Haley was the only one around, but due to a -8 Plot penalty, failed her check. Thus, she "wasn't good enough".

[Lvl45DM!]

contradicting myself here and probably repeating someone else but
This deva (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0193.html) has haleys hair style scar, and now that she has that new armour...bust

[Lvl45DM!]

Woah!!!
HALEYS SCAR DISAPPEARED!!! check it out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html)
"check it out i got me a trophy!" scar is there
"now who has the nice haircut" SCAR GONE! SCAR GONE
yeah we know that where has the scar gone to?
SCAR GONE SCAR GONE!

[Querzis]

It's possible for different departures to all be categorized as leaving. It's also possible for Mama Starshine to have left her husband and daughter, then died.

Just freaking look at the dialogue. In 681 she says with a big goofy smile that her mom went to heaven. In 311, she says everyone good and pure around her including her mom left her because she wasnt good enough.

Yes, I saw 5 years old think that its their fault if their parent died, divorced or something else. But I never saw anyone say happily when they are 5 years old that their moms went to heaven and say 20 years later that its their fault if she died because she wasnt good enough!

Beside Haley is freaking talking to herself. If her mom died she woudnt say to herself: «just like mom left».


Also, wasn't that hint about Haley being Sabine's opposite in Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, before we found out that she was in love with Elan, mirroring Sabine's relationship with Nale?

I dont have the book so I dont have the quote but from what I remember, I'm pretty damn sure he actually talked about Haley/Elan love before saying that there was another reason why they were opposite and that it actually was the main reason why they were opposite (someone with the book should write the full quote, it would be really helpful). But anyway, honestly, how had he not already revealed that in Dungeaon Crawling fools? Everyone had already figured it out.


If she was hiding her heritage dont you think she wouldve brought out some big guns when getting double teamed by Bozzok and Crystal?
or you know SABINE?

Nobody said she had any special powers. Just that she was half-celestial.

[Kish]

Half-celestials have special powers. Aasimar and tieflings have special powers. "Haley's Planetouched, except not mechanically" is less likely than, "Haley's Planetouched," and I don't consider the latter terribly likely.

[hamishspence]

There is the "Haley has an OoTS equivalent of the Celestial Heritage feat" option.

Which is to say, she's not exactly human in the sense that there is a trace of celestial blood, but she still has human statline- just a little bit extra.

Not all that likely, but it is an example of the intermediate zone between Aasimar and Human.

The actual feat (in Planar Handbook) grants a +4 bonus to saves vs disease- and a +1 bonus to saves against effects inflicted by evil creatures. Neither of which is the sort of thing we'd notice in the strip.

[Querzis]

Half-celestials have special powers. Aasimar and tieflings have special powers. "Haley's Planetouched, except not mechanically" is less likely than, "Haley's Planetouched," and I don't consider the latter terribly likely.

Yes I know they usually does but it shoudnt be like that. Think about it, there is hundred of celestials all with very different power, some of which look like humans and arent especially more powerfull then them but half-celestials all get exactly the same powers (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Half-celestial). I mean come on, lots of celestials are less powerfull then a level 1 half-celestials. Its not the first time Rich doesnt go with the rules when the rules are stupid.

[Lissou]

(someone with the book should write the full quote, it would be really helpful).

I did in this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6912369&postcount=47).

[Cleverdan22]

Yeah, I thought about all of this when I read the comic, and while it doesn't give anything close to evidence, it does seem like the Giant dropping tasty hints in the comic. And that's cool.

[Watcher]

Woah!!!
HALEYS SCAR DISAPPEARED!!! check it out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html)
"check it out i got me a trophy!" scar is there
"now who has the nice haircut" SCAR GONE! SCAR GONE
yeah we know that where has the scar gone to?
SCAR GONE SCAR GONE!

...What? Are you talking about the one strand of red hair out of her ponytail no matter which direction she's facing? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0580.html)

[Inhuman Bot]

Just having read the title...

You know what, nevermind. Haley's mother couldn't have been good aligned.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[Shale]

Whereas on the OotS forum, a cigar is really Elan's polymorphed half-Tarrasque father, who is also secretly Ian Starshine in disguise, lying in wait until he can complete his fiendish plan to harness the Gates and take over the world for his cult of reverse vampires.

[Cleverdan22]

...What? Are you talking about the one strand of red hair out of her ponytail no matter which direction she's facing? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0580.html)

Yep, that could really be the only thing they are referring to.

[Herald Alberich]

Just having read the title...

You know what, nevermind. Haley's mother couldn't have been good aligned.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

What? What makes you say that? Haley considers her mother "good and pure" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html), which is only mild evidence for the celestial-blood theory, but pretty darn strong evidence for a Good alignment.

Also from that strip, I'd say those who think Haley considered herself "not good enough" in terms of not having the skill to save her mother (as a lookout or a lock-picker or whatever) are missing the point. Haley thinks she's not Good enough, alignment-wise.

[Inhuman Bot]

What? What makes you say that? Haley considers her mother "good and pure" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html), which is only mild evidence for the celestial-blood theory, but pretty darn strong evidence for a Good alignment.

Also from that strip, I'd say those who think Haley considered herself "not good enough" in terms of not having the skill to save her mother (as a lookout or a lock-picker or whatever) are missing the point. Haley thinks she's not Good enough, alignment-wise.

I was being sarcastic.

People here have a tendancy to leap on things like that. It allmost seems like if someone said "I like the colour red", it'd be grounds to assume they were a half-fiend.

[Lvl45DM!]

OH!
i thought it was a scar
oh well im embarrassed but the deva in that tower still has Haleys hairstyle one strand and all

[pendell]

Something to ponder:

*This* particular theory may very well prove to be false. But I believe the probability that there are more secrets the Giant is concealing about Haley from us, the audience, is 99.999%.

Who here predicted the MiTD's ability to make something happen by wishing really, really hard?

Who here predicted the world in the Snarl?

As I said, this theory is probably false. But it's precisely because the Giant takes throwaway lines like 'Yeah, I don't know why wishing didn't make it happen' (spoken by Tsukiko) and makes them into ominous foreshadowing that was obvious after the fact is why these fevered speculation threads exist in the first place.

The Giant keeps me guessing. I can't out-think him. Throughout this story he's been one step ahead of me, and there's almost always been an incredible, unexpected twist.

So -- as I said -- this theory is probably false. But it might not be. These little hints and ambiguities could be unintentional, or they could be teasing us, or it could be another MITD-has-wish surprise. It's these little surprises that keep me coming back, over and over.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Lvl45DM!]

You know he might be out thinking us cos we post our thoughts on his site...

[Herald Alberich]

I was being sarcastic.

People here have a tendancy to leap on things like that. It allmost seems like if someone said "I like the colour red", it'd be grounds to assume they were a half-fiend.

Ah. Well, my apologies; I'm usually pretty good at detecting sarcasm in text. Would you care to explain your comment then? I don't understand what you're snarking about.

[Kish]

I believe that Slaanesh means that "Haley's mother was a good-aligned person who died" is the simple, obvious explanation for the line.

I could be wrong.

You know he might be out thinking us cos we post our thoughts on his site...
He posted a number of times that he goes out of his way to avoid reading predictions. Then he mostly stopped posting, and I'm pretty sure that corresponds to "stopped reading almost entirely," too.

[Elan's Modron]

I wasn't around for Part 1 of "Haley=part-celestial" because "Sabine=fiend"
but it does seem to me more likely that the H/S 'secret opposites' thing would have been about their respective relationships with Elan/Nale. Except I don't know the chronology of what was revealed when, so...in case it's *not* the Elan/Nale connection...

Well, it does seem hard to imagine how Haley is part-celestial (or other form of outsider) when we've seen no hints of at all after all these hundreds of strips. Sure, Haley's good at Hiding and Evasion, but sheesh!

So- I'm wondering what OTHER traits of Sabine and Haley might be oppositional - something less obvious, and possibly not yet revealed. (Though someone- Kish, I think- said it sounded like Rich's original quote was about a reveal that probably would have already happened by now)

Twelve Gods above- I really MUST go get the various OotS books so I can make posts without second-guessing myself right and left!:smallamused:

[Asta Kask]

Or could it be that Haley's mother is really the MitD and Xykon is V's parents' old butler?

[nogusielkt]

I think you're all missing the important question: How is that old lady going to use the information she got from young haley against her (if she hasn't already?)

[Bogardan_Mage]

"Trapped in Celestia" is defined, and then undefined, as death by the Oracle in Comic 567 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html).
I wouldn't say it was undefined. The Oracle proposes it as a possible definition of death. He doesn't rescind this, he just says he wasn't buying it as an excuse for the prophecy. It's still a valid, if hopelessly weak, definition of death. And remember, this is a world where 5000gp can reverse death entirely, so any definition is automatically pretty weak by our own world's standards.

[Revlid]

My first thought upon reading those panels wasn't "Haley's mum is a Celestial". It was "She's not dead". Her father's so big on lying, after all.

[chiasaur11]

My first thought upon reading those panels wasn't "Haley's mum is a Celestial". It was "She's not dead". Her father's so big on lying, after all.

So why's Haley getting yelled at if she lied like a trooper?

[Mugen Nightgale]

I think she is human.

[tribble]

Well, I gotta say this one comes closer to evidence than most.

Haley said her mom left because she wasn't good enough. Not true, presumably, but dying seldom leaves one with that assumption.

And given that Ian said her "Went to heaven" was true...

Not concrete, but closer to evidence than anything before now.

by the gygax, did you miss the fact that Haley has crippling self-esteem and blame issues?

[Miklus]

OMG I just figured it out...

Sabine is Haley's mother! It all makes sense now!

[Lvl45DM!]

Oh and theres a deva looking figment of Haley's personality
This comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0381.html), last panel above haleys optimism theres a green coloured ghost who looks EXACTLY like the deva Xykon killed in haleys clothes
oh and the deva xykon killed was wearing sabines style clothing just sayin

[Nimrod's Son]

Oh and theres a deva looking figment of Haley's personality
This comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0381.html), last panel above haleys optimism theres a green coloured ghost who looks EXACTLY like the deva Xykon killed in haleys clothes
oh and the deva xykon killed was wearing sabines style clothing just sayin
The ponytail's a different shape, the hair is a darker shade of green and the outfit is completely different. The only resemblance that deva has to Haley in any of her incarnations is that it's a female with a ponytail.

It's not some kind of subtle clue; the deva is a completely unrelated character.

[Turkish Delight]

Let's take a more realistic approach to this: obviously, Haley's mother is a Devil. This would fit with the opposite thing for Sabine, a Demon. Haley's mother going to Heaven would mean that she's off leading a grand assault to tear down the gates of Mount Celestia, to make the righteous weep tears of blood as they see their works torn down and the innocent devoured alive and screaming before their eyes.

As for being 'good' and leaving Haley when she was young, clearly that's just a distorted view from a very young child who can't recognize when her own mother is a blood-sucking fiend. The very fact that she abandoned her child is clearly an indication of her villainous nature.

Really, it's about as good as any of these theories. :smallsmile:

EDIT: It's also possible Haley's mother is a Modron.

[Asta Kask]

I think her mother is a hamster and her father smells of elderberries.

[Elan's Modron]

EDIT: It's also possible Haley's mother is a Modron.

I endorse this statement.

[Lvl45DM!]

Deva with a ponytail and the one strand!
and the deva is wearing Sabines style clothing

figment deva is a different colour cos its a ghost, and is wearing Haley style clothing, cos she is a figment of haley rather than an independent deva

[Nimrod's Son]

Deva with a ponytail and the one strand!
and the deva is wearing Sabines style clothing

figment deva is a different colour cos its a ghost, and is wearing Haley style clothing, cos she is a figment of haley rather than an independent deva
The deva's hair is much longer than Haley's, though. If the outfit's different, and the colours are different, and the hair is different, then all we're left with is the face: two eyes and a mouth. There's not enough similarity there to say it means anything.

It's a pretty good bet that Rich drew that character by taking a pre-drawn Haley and then recolouring and partially redrawing her, sure. That's almost certainly the case. But the fact that he deliberately made her ponytail different from Haley's suggests that the deva is not intended to represent her. Any similarity is coincidental.

[Cleverdan22]

I was being sarcastic.

People here have a tendancy to leap on things like that. It allmost seems like if someone said "I like the colour red", it'd be grounds to assume they were a half-fiend.

Yes, but the thing is that we're just doing it for fun. We see things that may point to something, so why not post about it? Just food for thought. Also, we trust Rich to tell the right story, and most people here will be satisfied whether or not our random, inane (or insane) theories come true.