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Optimystik
2009-09-23, 04:19 PM
The latest OotS strip got me thinking. I read the description for (Drawmij's) Instant Summons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/instantSummons.htm), and this clause caught my eye:


If the item is in the possession of another creature, the spell does not work, but you know who the possessor is and roughly where that creature is located when the summons occurs.

So if someone is holding your arcane marked item, you get a brief idea of who and where they are. My question is, how does this interact with Nondetection or Mind Blank? Both spells say they block divinations, but Instant Summons is a conjuration. So if you're trying to locate someone who is warding himself, you can trick him into picking up an item you "carelessly" dropped somewhere and then try and summon it to reveal their identity and help zero in on their location.

Or can you? Would this trick work?

Jack_Simth
2009-09-23, 04:39 PM
The latest OotS strip got me thinking. I read the description for (Drawmij's) Instant Summons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/instantSummons.htm), and this clause caught my eye:



So if someone is holding your arcane marked item, you get a brief idea of who and where they are. My question is, how does this interact with Nondetection or Mind Blank? Both spells say they block divinations, but Instant Summons is a conjuration. So if you're trying to locate someone who is warding himself, you can trick him into picking up an item you "carelessly" dropped somewhere and then try and summon it to reveal their identity and help zero in on their location.

Or can you? Would this trick work?

As a DM, I would totally let it work, just for the amusement value.

Afterwards, all important BBEG's running around with Nondetection/Mindblank will also be packing Erase.

Darrin
2009-09-23, 04:54 PM
My question is, how does this interact with Nondetection or Mind Blank? Both spells say they block divinations, but Instant Summons is a conjuration.

By a strict reading of RAW, Nondetection only applies to divination spells, so yes, Instant Summons would get around that. Mind Blank is trickier because it's much more broadly worded... but by RAW, Instant Summons isn't reading any thoughts, is not affecting the mind, and is not a "divination spell or effect". Unless your DM decides that a conjuration spell can provide a divination effect, but that may be getting into RAI.

If you're looking for something similar available at an earlier level, check out Dragoneye Rune in... Dragon Magic, I think? 2nd level Sorcerer-only spell, sort of a combination of Arcane Mark and Locate Object, and again, not a divination spell.

The biggest weakness of this strategy is anyone with Detect Magic up will see the Arcane Mark, and a decent Spellcraft or Knowledge (Arcana) roll may tip them off. A 1st level Erase spell gets rid of the mark. Your only hope there is no wizard worth his magic missiles ever memorizes Erase, ever.

Using Magic Aura to hide the mark doesn't exactly work, since the object and the Arcane Mark would most likely be treated as separate objects. Actually, RAW is pretty fuzzy there... check your DM.

Trying to hide the Arcane Mark or Dragoneye Rune amid other magic writing or Illusory Script won't work, either, since Detect Magic reveals the school as universal and would identify it as a separate spell effect. You could probably add Illusory Script with the suggestion that whoever fails the save becomes convinced there is no Arcane Mark or that it's meaningless. Fortunately, Illusion is one of the easier schools to buff the save DC.

Putting an Arcane Mark on a Spellblade (PGtF, improved version of Spell Immunity for only +6000 GP) keyed to an Erase spell might complicate things... should be difficult to get rid of, unless you can dispel/disjunct the Spellblade effect. So make it a double weapon with another Spellblade keyed to Dispel Magic, and that should scramble their noodle for a bit.

Yes, I've thought way too much about this already. Don't even ask about my theories on countering Discern Location.

olentu
2009-09-23, 05:06 PM
By a strict reading of RAW, Nondetection only applies to divination spells, so yes, Instant Summons would get around that. Mind Blank is trickier because it's much more broadly worded... but by RAW, Instant Summons isn't reading any thoughts, is not affecting the mind, and is not a "divination spell or effect". Unless your DM decides that a conjuration spell can provide a divination effect, but that may be getting into RAI.

If you're looking for something similar available at an earlier level, check out Dragoneye Rune in... Dragon Magic, I think? 2nd level Sorcerer-only spell, sort of a combination of Arcane Mark and Locate Object, and again, not a divination spell.

The biggest weakness of this strategy is anyone with Detect Magic up will see the Arcane Mark, and a decent Spellcraft or Knowledge (Arcana) roll may tip them off. A 1st level Erase spell gets rid of the mark. Your only hope there is no wizard worth his magic missiles ever memorizes Erase, ever.

Using Magic Aura to hide the mark doesn't exactly work, since the object and the Arcane Mark would most likely be treated as separate objects. Actually, RAW is pretty fuzzy there... check your DM.

Trying to hide the Arcane Mark or Dragoneye Rune amid other magic writing or Illusory Script won't work, either, since Detect Magic reveals the school as universal and would identify it as a separate spell effect. You could probably add Illusory Script with the suggestion that whoever fails the save becomes convinced there is no Arcane Mark or that it's meaningless. Fortunately, Illusion is one of the easier schools to buff the save DC.

Putting an Arcane Mark on a Spellblade (PGtF, improved version of Spell Immunity for only +6000 GP) keyed to an Erase spell might complicate things... should be difficult to get rid of, unless you can dispel/disjunct the Spellblade effect. So make it a double weapon with another Spellblade keyed to Dispel Magic, and that should scramble their noodle for a bit.

Yes, I've thought way too much about this already. Don't even ask about my theories on countering Discern Location.

Was the spellblade updated after magic of faerun since in that book it only protects the wielder and so would require more work for this to work.

Random832
2009-09-23, 05:32 PM
Using Magic Aura to hide the mark doesn't exactly work, since the object and the Arcane Mark would most likely be treated as separate objects. Actually, RAW is pretty fuzzy there... check your DM.

I don't see anything in RAW to indicate that at all - and if it _is_ treated as an object then it ought to be separately targetable for Magic Aura.


Trying to hide the Arcane Mark or Dragoneye Rune amid other magic writing or Illusory Script won't work, either, since Detect Magic reveals the school as universal and would identify it as a separate spell effect.

Not if it's invisible. Detect Magic's effect on an invisible Arcane Mark is specifically defined in the Arcane Mark spell description: It makes it glow and be visible; that's all. So if the invisible arcane mark is overlaid on already-glowing visible writing, or more simply hidden behind an opaque mundane panel...

taltamir
2009-09-23, 06:14 PM
The latest OotS strip got me thinking. I read the description for (Drawmij's) Instant Summons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/instantSummons.htm), and this clause caught my eye:



So if someone is holding your arcane marked item, you get a brief idea of who and where they are. My question is, how does this interact with Nondetection or Mind Blank? Both spells say they block divinations, but Instant Summons is a conjuration. So if you're trying to locate someone who is warding himself, you can trick him into picking up an item you "carelessly" dropped somewhere and then try and summon it to reveal their identity and help zero in on their location.

Or can you? Would this trick work?

if you managed to GET them to pick up (and carry while you cast the summons) a "bugged" item in the first place, than its hardly an exploit, is it? :)

Darrin
2009-09-23, 11:13 PM
Was the spellblade updated after magic of faerun since in that book it only protects the wielder and so would require more work for this to work.

Player's Guide to Faerun was published after Magic of Faerun. Wording is slightly different, but essentially the same. The spellblade can't protect you against area effects that don't specifically target the wielder. However, when you cast a spell that targets an object held or carried by a creature, you're effectively targeting the owner (the object makes any saves as if it were the owner).

Instant Summons doesn't exactly go into this, so there might be an argument that the owner isn't explicitly targeted... on the other hand, I'm not sure how you would explain a spell that can tell you the owner's name and general location *without* targeting him specifically. I don't know, RAW's a bit murky there... the owner isn't listed in the Target: entry, and even more puzzling, the text states if you're dealing with an owner, the spell explicitly fails (how can a failed spell have any valid target at all?).

On the other hand, D&D doesn't have a critical hit system, and the rules assume if you're attacking any object a creature is holding or carrying, you're attacking the creature itself.


I don't see anything in RAW to indicate that at all - and if it _is_ treated as an object then it ought to be separately targetable for Magic Aura.


Sorry, I shouldn't have said Arcane Mark would be considered a separate object. What I meant was it would be a separate effect. Even an invisible Arcane Mark should show up under Detect Magic (though as a universal and not an illusion effect, which should tip you off to what it is). I'm not sure how Magic Aura would affect an object with an Arcane Mark on it... I don't think putting a mark on an object would cause the entire object to glow as if it were a magic item. Just the mark itself would glow. So if you use Magic Aura to suppress the object's magic aura... I'm not sure the Arcane Mark itself would likewise be suppressed. I would be inclined to think it wouldn't. If it were a mundane object, then giving it a magic aura would still create two spell effects under Detect Magic.

I'm probably overthinking this, though... it might be safer to assume that the Arcane Mark is part of the physical form of the object (thus suppressed via Magic Aura) and move on. Allowing a nearly useless spell to make a relatively weak spell somewhat more undetectable (still allowing a Will save, plus Identify, plus True Seeing) doesn't exactly fill the nostrils with the acrid stench of game-breaking pedantry.



Not if it's invisible. Detect Magic's effect on an invisible Arcane Mark is specifically defined in the Arcane Mark spell description: It makes it glow and be visible; that's all. So if the invisible arcane mark is overlaid on already-glowing visible writing, or more simply hidden behind an opaque mundane panel...

I don't see anything in the text that says the normal effects of Detect Magic would be suppressed, so Detect Magic would identify the school (universal) and as a separate spell effect from any other magical/invisible writing. Covering the mark with a thin sheet of lead would probably work pretty well, but might look suspicious.

I do apologize for nitpicking over such trivialities, but my campaign world hinges on an obligatory super-important McGuffin, and I'm assuming my NPC villains have access to 20th-level batman wizards who are smart enough not to ban divination.

FMArthur
2009-09-23, 11:41 PM
My players are going to love this trick when my villains start tracking them by the loot picked up from their minions' corpses. This is honestly a much easier tactic when used against the players than the other way around. :smallamused:

olentu
2009-09-24, 01:23 AM
Player's Guide to Faerun was published after Magic of Faerun. Wording is slightly different, but essentially the same. The spellblade can't protect you against area effects that don't specifically target the wielder. However, when you cast a spell that targets an object held or carried by a creature, you're effectively targeting the owner (the object makes any saves as if it were the owner).

While it is good information to know where the updated stats are a spellblade still only protects the wielder. So to gain the benefit of its own property the spell blade would have to count as wielding itself which while it likely not impossible a method has not been presented.

Jack_Simth
2009-09-24, 06:20 AM
While it is good information to know where the updated stats are a spellblade still only protects the wielder. So to gain the benefit of its own property the spell blade would have to count as wielding itself which while it likely not impossible a method has not been presented.

Make it Intelligent and give it the Dancing property?

Zeta Kai
2009-09-24, 08:14 AM
Well, mind blank is an overpowered, annoying, plot-killing spell, so I'd let this trick work. But I agree with Jack that erase would be a given thereafter for any BBEG with have a brain. Kudos on the ingenuity, Opti.

taltamir
2009-09-24, 09:49 AM
Well, mind blank is an overpowered, annoying, plot-killing spell, so I'd let this trick work. But I agree with Jack that erase would be a given thereafter for any BBEG with have a brain. Kudos on the ingenuity, Opti.

realistically, erase IS available to EVERYONE... it is a ubiquitous spell...
But... do they have the sensibility to cast detect magic on the item? because only detect magic will show the invisible mark. And then have erase actually prepared ahead of time? Or decide to actually bother erasing it in the first place?

1. if they don't know it can tract them..
2. if they know it is magical because it glow or something obvious
3. if they don't have the in game time to prepare new spells, and use up two spell slots, one for detect magic and one for erase...

then they are stuck with it.
Also, identify shows enchantments, not an invisible mark :)

John Campbell
2009-09-24, 01:16 PM
Well, mind blank is an overpowered, annoying, plot-killing spell, so I'd let this trick work. But I agree with Jack that erase would be a given thereafter for any BBEG with have a brain. Kudos on the ingenuity, Opti.

You kidding? Mind blank is an awesome spell. It counters a whole lot of other spells that are themselves plot-breaking, as well as defending against most of the really annoying spells that commit the ultimate sin of not letting the player play. Mind blank plus freedom of movement goes a long way towards nullifying a whole lot of cheap b.s.

That said, I like to see that kind of creative solution to problems. I'd allow it.