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Cieyrin
2009-09-23, 05:16 PM
Probably not something most people look to as an interesting weapon but the wording for it's usage peaks my interest a bit. Given you can treat it as either a bastard sword or a short sword opens up some interesting avenues, like using Shadow Blade with it or Weapon Finesse to go all Dex with one. Since it's used with the ease of a short sword, a light weapon, you could dual wield 2 Sun Blades and not have to bother with Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting.

Any other tricks people can think of for using these interesting weapons? Almost makes me want to pull out my old Lone Wolf books and homebrew a Kai Lord PRC. :smallsmile:

deuxhero
2009-09-23, 05:28 PM
Hmm, are Rogues are proficient with it?

The Rose Dragon
2009-09-23, 05:30 PM
Hmm, are Rogues are proficient with it?

They count as bastard swords and short swords at the same time, so yes.

Elfin
2009-09-23, 05:32 PM
The Sun Blade has always intrigued me; it would definitely be cool to do a Shadow Blade build with 'em.

jiriku
2009-09-23, 06:00 PM
Yep, it's like two free feats in a can for a TWF-build. (EWP bastard sword and OTWF). Plus, feats like weapon focus and weapon spec can then be shared if your other weapon is an actual shortsword. It's also one of a VERY small group of finessable weapons that can be wielded two-handed, so it's a viable weapon for a two-handed leap attack build. A Dex-based ranger could use power attack, favored power attack, weapon finesse, quickdraw and leap attack to deal significant damage wielding it two-handed on a charge, then quick-draw his shortsword and be well-equipped for a two-weapon full attack on the following round.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-23, 07:45 PM
Expedition to Castle Ravenloft page 210 has the Sunsword, which is a Sun Blade for 3000 gp with none of the extraneous abilities. Just a +1 bastard short sword.

Elfin
2009-09-23, 08:14 PM
A Dex-based ranger could use power attack, favored power attack, weapon finesse, quickdraw and leap attack to deal significant damage wielding it two-handed on a charge, then quick-draw his shortsword and be well-equipped for a two-weapon full attack on the following round.

I'll have to remember this one...

PinkysBrain
2009-09-23, 08:20 PM
If he can use leap attack he can probably cast Lion's Charge.

FMArthur
2009-09-24, 12:14 AM
A samurai can use it to... well, be another idiot samurai. But it's simultaneously both of the weapons the samurai specialize in (poorly)!

jiriku
2009-09-24, 01:39 AM
A samurai can use it to... well, be another idiot samurai. But it's simultaneously both of the weapons the samurai specialize in (poorly)!

Oh, good point! This could be used to redeem a samurai build...oh, wait, you get EWP whether you want it or not...nevermind.... :P

♠Spade♠
2009-09-24, 01:43 AM
This weapon intrigues me. What book(s) is it in besides Expedition to Castle Ravenloft?

Kyeudo
2009-09-24, 01:58 AM
This weapon intrigues me. What book(s) is it in besides Expedition to Castle Ravenloft?

The DMG. It's one of the specific weapons listed there.

♠Spade♠
2009-09-24, 02:05 AM
The DMG. It's one of the specific weapons listed there.

WHAT?! Shenanigans, I say! *Checks DMG* Huh...how about that. I wonder how I've had this book for years and never noticed it in there.

Mitth'raw'nuruo
2009-09-24, 06:55 AM
Because you never read it cover to cover?

Of when you did....you did not know enough about the game to know what you were reading :-)

Zephyros
2009-09-24, 08:33 AM
One of my first games in 3.5 featured a ranger with two sunblades which the DM gloriously sundered cuz "Alexia is overpowered with these weapons...She chops my demons like crazy" :smallbiggrin: The cold iron demonbane shortswords I crafted for her in a couple of sessions in conjuction with her favored enemy (Demon) taught him otherwise :smallbiggrin:

Goooood Times :smallcool:

Person_Man
2009-09-24, 09:37 AM
WHAT?! Shenanigans, I say! *Checks DMG* Huh...how about that. I wonder how I've had this book for years and never noticed it in there.

Big problem though - the Sun Blade (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Sun_Blade) costs 50,335 gp. The earliest you could afford it would be ECL 11. It's essentially the same as a +5 weapon. And I have much better things to do with a +5 weapon.

Interestingly enough, it was in 2nd ed DMG as well, and I remember reading a novel where the protagonist wielded one. I can't remember if it was in 1st ed or not. But it's clearly a legacy item, not something designed to fit a specific build.

Cieyrin
2009-09-24, 11:13 AM
Big problem though - the Sun Blade (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Sun_Blade) costs 50,335 gp. The earliest you could afford it would be ECL 11. It's essentially the same as a +5 weapon. And I have much better things to do with a +5 weapon.

Interestingly enough, it was in 2nd ed DMG as well, and I remember reading a novel where the protagonist wielded one. I can't remember if it was in 1st ed or not. But it's clearly a legacy item, not something designed to fit a specific build.

Well, of course it's a legacy item, just like the Flametongue and Frostbrand are from the earliest editions (Hell, i think the white box, if my dad's stories about his characters from that period are any indication). The items themselves haven't changed that much since earlier periods, just updated to the current edition (though I haven't gone looking for 'em in 4E but I have no plans to, either).

In any case, despite their expense, they've only gotten more useful with time. From Shadow Blade (the irony of using a blade of light for a shadowy type deal isn't lost on me:smalltongue:) to the the Exotic Weapon Master's Uncanny Blow, there are numerous tricks you can do with 'em that makes 'em more valuable some of the other specific weapons that come in the DMG (the poor Flame Tongue, for example, is not worth the cost. The Oath bow isn't much better except for sniper duty maybe. The Sword of the Planes just isn't that interesting).

Myou
2009-09-24, 11:22 AM
Question, why is it only able to cast Daylight once a day?

Daylight seems a pretty weak ability to begin with - other than a slightly wider radius I can't see how it's better than that Light cantrip.

ericgrau
2009-09-24, 11:27 AM
Big problem though - the Sun Blade (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Sun_Blade) costs 50,335 gp. The earliest you could afford it would be ECL 11. It's essentially the same as a +5 weapon. And I have much better things to do with a +5 weapon.

Interestingly enough, it was in 2nd ed DMG as well, and I remember reading a novel where the protagonist wielded one. I can't remember if it was in 1st ed or not. But it's clearly a legacy item, not something designed to fit a specific build.

Not really. You can't get a +5 weapon until that level anyway. So you get a sun blade when you would get a +5 weapon. As for how much it's worth, it's as good as:
+3 shortsword against all creatures
+5 shortsword vs evil creatures
+8 shortsword vs. negative energy plane or undead creatures
I counted ~2-3 extra base damage (increasable with crits) as equal to a +1, because other +1 equivalent damage enchantments give 1d6 (not increasable with crits).

So in a campaign with undead it's invaluable, and even when fighting your run of the mill evil baddy it still keeps up.


Question, why is it only able to cast Daylight once a day?

Daylight seems a pretty weak ability to begin with - other than a slightly wider radius I can't see how it's better than that Light cantrip.

It's a fairly minor flavor addition, but it does have a use. Daylight is good for taking down equal or lower level darkness spells. Also, like all glowing weapons (30% of all weapons), the blade always gives off light as a light spell anyway.

Kris Strife
2009-09-24, 11:40 AM
One of my two favorite core items. That my favorite core class is Paladin doesn't hurt either. :smallbiggrin:

Myou
2009-09-24, 11:43 AM
It's a fairly minor flavor addition, but it does have a use. Daylight is good for taking down equal or lower level darkness spells.

Yeah, but so is Dispel Magic, which is infinitely better and the same level. :smallconfused:

You can even get the targeted dispel a level earlier.

I just don't see why it needs to be 1/day - it's just lame. At-will is just fine when all it does is dispel Darkness.

ericgrau
2009-09-24, 11:44 AM
Probably because it doesn't really increase the cost of the weapon - it's reasonably priced even without any daylight power - and daylight is an automatic success against darkness unlike dispel. If you want at will daylight, add another 20k to the weapon's price.

EDIT: Oh yeah, daylight is also great against bright light sensitive creatures like drow. I don't think a regular light is bright enough.

Cieyrin
2009-09-24, 02:24 PM
One of my two favorite core items. That my favorite core class is Paladin doesn't hurt either. :smallbiggrin:

I'm guessing your other favorite is a holy avenger.:smalltongue:

As for the Sunlight Power, it's kinda gimicky, given how slow it is to get the daylight effect going and that you have to stand there waving it around to get it going. I guess it's only real use is for countering darkness effects, as ericgrau has already said. It was designed before the latest crop of magic items came with the MiC and DMG2, so you got it a bit of slack for not necessarily being up to snuff in that area.

jiriku
2009-09-24, 04:02 PM
It was designed before the latest crop of magic items came with the MiC and DMG2, so you got it a bit of slack for not necessarily being up to snuff in that area.

Haha no kidding! It was designed back when I was just a twinkle my daddy's eye and Gary Gygax was thinking "I wonder if we ought to make a second edition of this thing?"

Cieyrin
2009-09-24, 04:46 PM
Haha no kidding! It was designed back when I was just a twinkle my daddy's eye and Gary Gygax was thinking "I wonder if we ought to make a second edition of this thing?"

Same for me, though I was referring to the 3.5 version.:smalltongue:

Set
2009-09-24, 06:33 PM
Expedition to Castle Ravenloft page 210 has the Sunsword, which is a Sun Blade for 3000 gp with none of the extraneous abilities. Just a +1 bastard short sword.

Oh, I am so in love with that item. A dual-short-sword wielding beatstick with the appropriate Feats and a pair of Sun Blades (or Sunswords) would kick butt.

I always wanted to write up a 'lesser sun blade' without the extraneous crap, but the name Moon Blade was already associated with something else... Nice to know that it's already been done, so I don't have to figure out how much it would cost!

Other two-fer variants, such as a Hand Axe that hits like a Dwarven Waraxe or a Buckler that defends like a Heavy Shield, could rock mightily.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-24, 06:41 PM
Not really. You can't get a +5 weapon until that level anyway. So you get a sun blade when you would get a +5 weapon. As for how much it's worth, it's as good as:
+3 shortsword against all creatures
+5 shortsword vs evil creatures
+8 shortsword vs. negative energy plane or undead creatures
I counted ~2-3 extra base damage (increasable with crits) as equal to a +1, because other +1 equivalent damage enchantments give 1d6 (not increasable with crits).

So in a campaign with undead it's invaluable, and even when fighting your run of the mill evil baddy it still keeps up.
Except no one actually gets +5 weapons. They get +1 weapons with lots of extra abilities tacked on. And then they get Greater Magic Weapon cast on them.

Sure, you get 3 extra damage against Undead. That's... not a lot. And you're paying heavily for it.

Kris Strife
2009-09-24, 06:42 PM
I'm guessing your other favorite is a holy avenger.:smalltongue:

Actually, not so much. I prefer hand-and-a-half swords (darn censor) to long swords, partially because they don't get enough representation in magical items, also because switching between sword and board or THF on the fly is a useful ability IMO.

shadow_archmagi
2009-09-24, 06:49 PM
Suaaghin with four arms and every one a sunblade using Tiger Claw.

sofawall
2009-09-24, 07:16 PM
Actually, not so much. I prefer hand-and-a-half swords (darn censor) to long swords, partially because they don't get enough representation in magical items, also because switching between sword and board or THF on the fly is a useful ability IMO.

Does it seriously block Bastard Sword?

EDIT: I didn't think it did. What about just Bastard?

EDIT2: Nope. Rich (or whoever made the censor, likely not Rich upon reflection) is no fool.

ericgrau
2009-09-24, 07:17 PM
Except no one actually gets +5 weapons. They get +1 weapons with lots of extra abilities tacked on. And then they get Greater Magic Weapon cast on them.

Sure, you get 3 extra damage against Undead. That's... not a lot. And you're paying heavily for it.

I was counting each +1 equivalent as 2 or 3 base damage, which is about 2.5-4 with crits. Only +3 of the weapon is redundant with greater magic weapon, and even then not until level 16. Depending on how much undead you fight you might have a problem, or not.

But besides that, people get weapons with more than +1 in lots of campaigns. Like OotS, for an obvious example. Or maybe the casters want to tie up all their 3rd level slots spamming heroism instead. After all it's equal or better until very late levels. Or use the slots for other such spells. You only get 3-5.

All that put together could make a sunsword worth it. It depends.

Kris Strife
2009-09-24, 07:36 PM
Does it seriously block Bastard Sword?

EDIT: I didn't think it did. What about just Bastard?

EDIT2: Nope. Rich (or whoever made the censor, likely not Rich upon reflection) is no fool.

Eh, thought it was better to be safe than sorry.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-24, 07:43 PM
a Buckler that defends like a Heavy Shield, could rock mightily.

Isn't that just a better version of a +1 Buckler?

Cieyrin
2009-09-24, 09:26 PM
Isn't that just a better version of a +1 Buckler?

It would just be +1 AC and maybe would let you shield bash. I'm not seeing a good reason for such an item to exist, personally. It doesn't make sense, also, if by following the Sun Blade example, it would be a heavy shield that was as easy to use as a buckler, meaning what exactly? He could hold items, shoot with no penalty or two-hand with a -1 to attack? Nah...

Keewatin
2009-09-25, 06:59 AM
You know, I have always wanted to see that Sylvan scimitar get some love.

Cieyrin
2009-09-25, 10:50 AM
You know, I have always wanted to see that Sylvan scimitar get some love.

It's not half-bad, either, especially the typeless damage, though the gain of a feat (not a particularly good one, either, but hey, free feat is a free feat) makes it a tad expensive, I say. On the other-hand, the extra damage and free feat are worth about +1 a piece, so this actually comes a bit cheaper than the +5 weapon it would otherwise be. So, all-in-all, it's not a bad investment if you're always in a temperate area.

Adumbration
2009-09-25, 10:52 AM
I always thought that the main purpose of the Sun Blade was to be the ultimate vampire killer? Unlike many items, it does not specify the spell Daylight, it just says daylight, which means that vampires go poof when you start waving that sword around.

Cieyrin
2009-09-25, 11:35 AM
I always thought that the main purpose of the Sun Blade was to be the ultimate vampire killer? Unlike many items, it does not specify the spell Daylight, it just says daylight, which means that vampires go poof when you start waving that sword around.

Kind of slow to get it off, though, and not affecting a large area till a minute later, all the while you're spending standard actions swinging the thing over your head like a cheerleader or something. Since it's keyed off of using the Daylight spell in its creation, which has similar text (almost like they copy and pasted...:smallwink:), I don't think it produces real sunlight. Since the Blade doesn't have the stipulation of the spell, it could honestly go either way, really, depending on the DM ruling.

Set
2009-09-25, 11:42 AM
Isn't that just a better version of a +1 Buckler?

Yup. Following the Sunsword example (2000+ gp for a +1 sword, 3000+ gp for a +1 sunsword), a +1 Buckler would cost 1000+ gp and a +1 'Sun Shield' would cost 2000+ gp, give +1 AC, and retain the ACP, ASF and weight of the Buckler, but be able to bash (and carry shield spikes) like heavy shield. The proficiency thing wouldn't matter, since I don't think that there are any classes proficient in Buckler that aren't already proficient in Heavy Shield anyway.

Since a +2 Buckler would cost 4000+ gp, you'd save 2000 gp to get a +1 Sun Shield instead, and get the same armor bonus.

It's a couple of pennies of difference at any meaningful level, but not teh uber-suq by any means.

The Sun Axe (hand axe / dwarven war axe) sounds pretty sexy, though. Pity there isn't a one handed variation of the great club (hand and a half club?) to make a bludgeoning alternative.

Cieyrin
2009-09-25, 12:43 PM
Pity there isn't a one handed variation of the great club (hand and a half club?) to make a bludgeoning alternative.

You mean a club? I'd honestly also perhaps suggest a morningstar, as well.

Set
2009-09-28, 01:42 PM
Behold my Hand Crossbow that does damage like a Heavy Crossbow (yet can be used one handed). Heh. My one-handed Shortspear with the Reach and Damage of a Longspear!

So many fun ways to take advantage of this 'as weapon two classes larger' concept.

technophile
2009-09-28, 02:14 PM
Heavy Crossbow that can be used as a Ballista?

ericgrau
2009-09-28, 02:37 PM
sling-a-pult.

Kyrthain
2009-09-28, 02:57 PM
Fullblade that acts like... Oh dear.

Cieyrin
2009-09-28, 03:51 PM
Fullblade that acts like... Oh dear.

Hmm...sounds like the equivalent of a Maul of the Titans, a BFS (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BFS) by any other name.

FMArthur
2009-09-28, 06:38 PM
I think what we were all asking for is a fullblade shuriken.

Boci
2009-09-29, 08:34 AM
I think what we were all asking for is a fullblade shuriken.

With the 3.0 shuriken. Yeah, that doesn't have "DM's wrath magnet" written all over it.