The blood war

[waterpenguin43]

After reading Fiendish Codex II, the blood war is a pretty fascinating subject for me, and I have a question:
FC2 says that demons outnumber devils 20/1, but the planes are infinite, so how does this work?
Also, I have an idea of the devils strategy in mind:

-The serpentine order disguises themselves as and spies on the demons, gleaning all possible information than reporting it to Mephistopheles and General Corin, who then inform Bel and Asmodeus.

-The few, the Stygian champions, Creeping Cadre and the Maladominaar teleport in, the Stygian champions start charming, dominating and using cold magic against the demons and striking individuals. The few and the Maladominaar directly attack the forces of the demons that aren't charmed, lowering there numbers quite a substantial margin. The Creeping Cadre spends the time peppering the demons with disease, negative levels, and other nasty things like that. Now the walkers in fire, as well as the iron defenders, come in. The Iron defenders work to keep as many of the devils alive as possible, as well as disabling enemy siege engines. The walkers in fire rain down well.. fire at the demons, trying to ignite the battlefield to take advantage of the devils immunity, while hellfire engines incinerate and make cold iron attacks at them. Also, the gleaming guard comes in if there is any particular magic weapons or other sorts of magical equipment that might prove particuliarly useful.

Any comments, suggestions or answers? Or other pieces of info on the blood war?

[The Rose Dragon]

After reading Fiendish Codex II, the blood war is a pretty fascinating subject for me, and I have a question:
FC2 says that demons outnumber devils 20/1, but the planes are infinite, so how does this work?

The demons in the Blood War outnumber the Devils in the Blood War 20 / 1.

Not all the resources of the Lower Planes are tied up in a pointless conflict. The Lords of the Nine know better than that, and the Demon Princes just care more about destroying the Upper Planes and the Material Plane than they do about destroying Baator.

[SmartAlec]

FC2 says that demons outnumber devils 20/1, but the planes are infinite, so how does this work?

Planes don't seem to obey 'normal' rules like that.

For example, the Outlands has an edge, and a center. You can travel to both. But distance doesn't quite match up - it takes a set amount of days to travel from one place to another in the Outlands (I seem to remember it as 12, but I may be wrong) no matter where you set out from or where you are going. It takes 12 days to get from the edge of the Outlands to the middle; it also takes 12 days to get from one side of the Outland to the other.

Similarly, each of the Planes are infinite, but there's enough room for all of them in creation.

That sort of disconnection between time, distance and space is how the Planes work even in the face of apparently contradictory facts.

[infinitypanda]

FC2 says that demons outnumber devils 20/1, but the planes are infinite, so how does this work?

Simple. For every devil, there are twenty demons.

[golentan]

Actually, it's possible for both sides to be infinite at different degrees. If there are an infinite number of devils (who we represent as "All multiples of 20"), there can still be 20 demons for each of them (all integers). Though trying to count to prove it may make your head asplode. It did mine the first time I read up on infinite maths and alephs.

And I was under the assumption that the serpentines couldn't really infiltrate that effectively because of the whole "detect law" thing. And that most of the rest was standard practice, but the demons do have counterstrategies including just dretching all over the front lines to negate the benefits of high powered single target spells and SLAs, and then following through with similar blasting of the devils. Of course, without as clear a chain of command and battle order, and less teamwork from a combat perspective, they're not as good at it. Which lets the war continue to break even for the most part.

[Assassin89]

Simple. For every devil, there are twenty demons.

But how many demons fight devils and how many demons fight each other? Although the demons outnumber the devils, the demons are not as likely to be organized, and an entire battalion could be taken down by unrest within the group.

[The Rose Dragon]

If there are an infinite number of devils (who we represent as "All multiples of 20"), there can still be 20 demons for each of them (all integers). Though trying to count to prove it may make your head asplode. It did mine the first time I read up on infinite maths and alephs.

Both are equal in number, then. The number of both all multiples of 20 and all integers equal aleph-null, so you can't make such a comparison.

[Yuki Akuma]

Each layer of Baator is infinitely large.

Each layer of the Abyss is infinitely large.

Baator has nine layers.

The Abyss has at least six-hundred and sixty-six layers, and possibly much more.

It's quite simple.


The Great Wheel is also infinitely large, but it contains all of the (also infinitely large) Outer Planes. Also, the Modrons routinely walk its circumference.

It's the planes. Deal.

[TheCountAlucard]

Each layer of Baator is infinitely large.

Each layer of the Abyss is infinitely large.Actually, IIRC, only a few layers of the Abyss are infinite in size; the same may or may not be true of the nine hells.

[golentan]

Both are equal in number, then. The number of both all multiples of 20 and all integers equal aleph-null, so you can't make such a comparison.

Both are in the same aleph, but since it is Aleph null it is countable (the definition of aleph null). So from anything other than a mathematically purist point of view we can say in any range there will be 20 demons per devil because it is countable, and this trend continues to infinity. There are infinite (aleph-null) numbers on both sides and the one side has 20 times the forces. I probably shouldn't have used "different degrees" as my term of choice in my last post though. And yes, I know infinite maths play merry hob (hehe, thread appropriate phrase?) with these sorts of things. But the limit of x/20x as x goes to infinity is 1/20, and I think it's a useful explanation for the setup as described in the books and the OP. Or maybe I'm completely wrong and should shut up about books I haven't read or thought about in a couple years.

Sorry, don't mean to derail your threads. I'll shut up now.

[waterpenguin43]

Both are in the same aleph, but since it is Aleph null it is countable (the definition of aleph null). So from anything other than a mathematically purist point of view we can say in any range there will be 20 demons per devil because it is countable, and this trend continues to infinity. There are infinite (aleph-null) numbers on both sides and the one side has 20 times the forces. I probably shouldn't have used "different degrees" as my term of choice in my last post though. And yes, I know infinite maths play merry hob (hehe, thread appropriate phrase?) with these sorts of things. But the limit of x/20x as x goes to infinity is 1/20, and I think it's a useful explanation for the setup as described in the books and the OP. Or maybe I'm completely wrong and should shut up about books I haven't read or thought about in a couple years.

Sorry, don't mean to derail your threads. I'll shut up now.

Don't worry about it, I found it nice to see someone think it out.

[waterpenguin43]

Each layer of Baator is infinitely large.

Each layer of the Abyss is infinitely large.

Baator has nine layers.

The Abyss has at least six-hundred and sixty-six layers, and possibly much more.

It's quite simple.


The Great Wheel is also infinitely large, but it contains all of the (also infinitely large) Outer Planes. Also, the Modrons routinely walk its circumference.

It's the planes. Deal.

But if you look at it this way: Infinite x2 isn't any larger than infinite x40, because it's still infinite.

[tribble]

But if you look at it this way: Infinite x2 isn't any larger than infinite x40, because it's still infinite.

Wrong, sir, wrong!
Under section 37-B of the contract signed by him, and you can read it for yourself in this photostatic copy,

ahem.

somebody actually disproved your statement though. if I take a cartesian plane, and start a ray with a slope of one at "3,4" and start another ray with a slope of one at "-2,1", then the lengths of the rays are not equal.
http://hanlonsrazor.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/headboom.jpg

EDIT: I believe this was a century problem, so the above reaction is natural.

[AppleChips]

But not all infinities are equal to each other. In this case, one is 20x as big as the other one.

[CyberRebirth]

This is the point of the thread where my puny human brain starts hurting.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

When it comes to the planes, there's infinite and then there's "infinite." As has already been mentioned, the Outlands has an edge; if you keep walking, you'll go on forever, because the plane extends itself to keep "ahead" of you, but at any given time, the Outlands has a finite area. Same thing with the Spire--Sigil is on top of an infinite spire in the sense that if you keep going up and up and up next to it you'll never reach the top...but you can see Sigil from the ground and vice-versa, so it's obviously not an infinite distance away.

It's implied, though not outright stated, in Planescape materials that all the planes work the same way; planes are infinite in the sense that you can never reach the end of them, and you can fit in as many creatures as you want, but the planes have a finite area, and there are more-or-less finite numbers of outsiders, at any given time. How exactly this is possible and how it all works isn't completely known (or really known to any good degree), but then again, beings from the Prime are called "clueless" for a reason.

[Elfin]

Brain...hurting..so...much. :smalleek:

[golentan]

Hmm, that makes sense. But the outer planes are described as pulling souls from thousands of worlds, so even so the populations must be absurdly high. Certainly higher than any mortal backwater, except maybe some tippyverse style places.

[Eldan]

Both are in the same aleph, but since it is Aleph null it is countable (the definition of aleph null). So from anything other than a mathematically purist point of view we can say in any range there will be 20 demons per devil because it is countable, and this trend continues to infinity. There are infinite (aleph-null) numbers on both sides and the one side has 20 times the forces. I probably shouldn't have used "different degrees" as my term of choice in my last post though. And yes, I know infinite maths play merry hob (hehe, thread appropriate phrase?) with these sorts of things. But the limit of x/20x as x goes to infinity is 1/20, and I think it's a useful explanation for the setup as described in the books and the OP. Or maybe I'm completely wrong and should shut up about books I haven't read or thought about in a couple years.

Sorry, don't mean to derail your threads. I'll shut up now.


Actually, someone argued like this on Planewalker:

There are Aleph null baatezu: you can arrange them in a formation or a line, and start counting them.

However, there are Aleph one Tanar'ri: whenever you try to count them, they will move around and try to squeeze in the empty spaces between each other.

[The_Snark]

Various sources state that the layers of Hell are infinite, but I don't think this means that devils are infinite in number. For one thing, the same sources also say that only the center areas around the Pit are really inhabited. Devils don't just pop out of nowhere, and there's no real reason for them to be traveling into the middle of nowhere (aside from the occasional fugitive devil teleporting away from an angry superior). Demons, on the other hand, do pop out of nowhere, and so that infinite size means infinite numbers.

More importantly, infinity has always struck me as a sort of chaotic concept; there's something fundamentally undefinable about it. It's a lack of limits, whereas law is all about limits. If infinity is chaotic, than devils should not be, because they're living embodiments of law.

[golentan]

Actually, someone argued like this on Planewalker:

There are Aleph null baatezu: you can arrange them in a formation or a line, and start counting them.

However, there are Aleph one Tanar'ri: whenever you try to count them, they will move around and try to squeeze in the empty spaces between each other.

But... But...

*begins crying* NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! That directly contradicts material we're given. It would mean there were infinite tanar'ri for each baatezu, and Baator would so have fallen in that case unless there was serious freakiness given. I can understand there being an irrational or uncountable number of tanar'ri at home because it fits with the whole "chaos" thing^1, but I can't accept a solution that lets them win that handily. Even if the whole plane only resolves into discrete individuals when observed, when sending forces or being observed it has to conform to what we know: there are 20 demons to each devil in the blood war.

^1 ... Unless that's what they want us to think!!! Maybe because it's what would be expected of chaos, they violate the rules of expectation by being all orderly when it comes to numbers!!! I smell conspiracy!!! I smell my exhaustion smell!!! I smell... overpunctuation???

[The Rose Dragon]

Even if the whole plane only resolves into discrete individuals when observed, when sending forces or being observed it has to conform to what we know: there are 20 demons to each devil in the blood war.

You're forgetting that the Blood War is a small, frowned-upon hobby for most of the devils and the demons. Yes, there are 20 demons for each devil in the Blood War, but it is hardly true for the entirety of demon and devil species. The point is:

1) There are infinite demons.
2) There may or may not be infinite devils.
3) In the Blood War, there are a non-infinite number of devils and demons caught up in the conflict.
4) Devils are awesome, so they can handle demons that outnumber them.

[Eldan]

Well, maybe these infinitely infinite Tanar'ri are so busy squabbling amongst each other, they only send 20 infinites of troops out to fight the Baatezu? :smalltongue:

[Calmar]

Well, maybe these infinitely infinite Tanar'ri are so busy squabbling amongst each other, they only send 20 infinites of troops out to fight the Baatezu? :smalltongue:

That's actually pretty much the answer, according to Planes of Law. When an ifernal commander issues an order, it is precisely carried out by the devils under her command. An abyssal leader, on the other hand, has to deal with squabbling underlings who question his authority and do as they please.
The numerical advantage of the chaotic demons is countered by the superior discipline and strategic skill of the lawful devils.

[Oslecamo]

You're forgetting that the Blood War is a small, frowned-upon hobby for most of the devils and the demons. Yes, there are 20 demons for each devil in the Blood War, but it is hardly true for the entirety of demon and devil species. The point is:

This. The blood war is little more than the evil fiendish version of family reunion and holiday. After spending all week fighting those annoying do gooders, how about fighting some nonsissy enemies for a change?:smallbiggrin:

Anyway, I think the 20 to 1 is the mark when even the best devil plans stop working.

The devils probably try to attack the demons when they're scatered, picking them off in small groups, but now and then the demon comanders will manage to unite their forces in a single massive wave of 20 to 1 or more numerical advantage, and in that situation the devils just get overrun by sheer numbers.

Of course, the demonic wave ends up breaking apart for some random reason and scatter, the devils rally togheter once again and proceed to pick the scatered demons, re-starting the neverending cycle.

[Zen Master]

Now, to my way of thinking, the Blood War makes sense only in a metaphorical context. Metaphorically, there are 20 times more demons than devils (or vice versa - no matter). Metaphorically, they invest enormous effort in warring against each other.

In practical terms, of course, neither is the case. Both sides have infinite numbers at their command, and the whole Blood War thing, however dramatic it looks to mortal eyes, is nothing more than a minor border skirmish.

On both sides of the conflict are massive, inscrutable and terrible minds - and none of those monstrous intellects care even in the tiniest way for a war they fully know none can win, and that will never end.

The Blood War is the eternal strife between chaos and order. Metaphorically, it is central to the multiverse, endless, brutal and bloody. In actuality - yes, it takes place, and is in its way infinite in scope, but is still entirely insignificant in every way.

Of course, the fact that endless hordes suffer and die, planes burn and the Great Wheel trembles - because of a totally irrelevant schism - is even more terrible than if it served any real purpose.

[Calmar]

This. The blood war is little more than the evil fiendish version of family reunion and holiday. After spending all week fighting those annoying do gooders, how about fighting some nonsissy enemies for a change?:smallbiggrin:

As far as I know it is the Blood War that keeps the upper planes rather safe from fiendish harassment... :smallconfused:

[Somebloke]

This is the point of the thread where my puny human brain starts hurting.

Think of it this way.

A circle is an infinite loop.

A bigger circle is another infinite loop, but bigger.

Clear?

[PonceAlyosha]

Now, to my way of thinking, the Blood War makes sense only in a metaphorical context. Metaphorically, there are 20 times more demons than devils (or vice versa - no matter). Metaphorically, they invest enormous effort in warring against each other.

In practical terms, of course, neither is the case. Both sides have infinite numbers at their command, and the whole Blood War thing, however dramatic it looks to mortal eyes, is nothing more than a minor border skirmish.

On both sides of the conflict are massive, inscrutable and terrible minds - and none of those monstrous intellects care even in the tiniest way for a war they fully know none can win, and that will never end.

The Blood War is the eternal strife between chaos and order. Metaphorically, it is central to the multiverse, endless, brutal and bloody. In actuality - yes, it takes place, and is in its way infinite in scope, but is still entirely insignificant in every way.

Of course, the fact that endless hordes suffer and die, planes burn and the Great Wheel trembles - because of a totally irrelevant schism - is even more terrible than if it served any real purpose.

Corellon Larethian go home!

Also, logistically, aren't the aleph one tanarii scattered across aleph one planes of the abyss? They'd have to walk aleph one miles to get to the front lines of the blood war.

If so, does the abyss secretly contain all other planes? It's a good explanation, everyone is just evolved demons. Too eva for my taste, though.

[kamikasei]

But not all infinities are equal to each other. In this case, one is 20x as big as the other one.

No, infinity and twenty times that infinity are the same infinity. A larger infinity is a different thing. (The set of all integers would, intuitively, appear to be twenty times larger than the set of all integers divisible by twenty. In fact, they're the same size. To get a larger infinity, you go to the reals, not to operations on the integers.)


Think of it this way.

A circle is an infinite loop.

A bigger circle is another infinite loop, but bigger.

Clear?

...Not really, no, not at all.

[Eldan]

The Abyss probably doesn't have Aleph One layers. I'd suspect either Aleph 0 or just 666.

[Oslecamo]

As far as I know it is the Blood War that keeps the upper planes rather safe from fiendish harassment... :smallconfused:

Nah, fiends still spend plenty of time and effort corrupting mortals and trying to take down the upper planes.

For example, of the nine hells lords, only the upper one cares about the blood war at all, while the other eight spend their time ploting all kind of evil schemes to increase their power. The abyss is filled with internal conflict, with demonic princes in constant war with each other, in a such big mess that the blood war is little more than a grain of dust.

Heck, it's said that in the 5th layer of hell there's a standing army bigger than all the troops ever sent in the Blood war combined, for example.

But on the other hand, yes, if the chaotic and lawful fiends united they would be a much mightier force, but for now they are too diferent to be able to work togheter. Heck, they have trouble even working with their own.

The blood war is just the tip of that internal hate iceberg-

[Draken]

Eh. Reread Fiendish Codex Two. Each layer of the nine hells is infinite, but this infinity is primarily composed of empty space. The actual layer is a considerably limited 'terrace' where the devils live. These terraces have very well defined dimensions.

On the other hand, each layer of te abyss is, indeed, infinite.

Furthermore, devils are formed from the harvesting of energy from mortal souls, once a soul has been sufficiently harvested it becomes the butt of baatezu society, the lowest of the low, a suplicant of the nine hells, a lemure, and promotion through the ranks is hard and costs a lot to that lemure's master. It takes that same energy that was harvested from the mortal souls.

The exception are Erynies, who are born as such from Erynies parents. Braxina are promoted, however.

Demons, on the other hand, pop out of nowhere. At any given moment there might be an empty space, then the alien consciousness of the abyss decides that spot is stagnated and there pops a dretch, or a vrock, or a glabrezu. Or a Balor, heck, a demon lord might pop then and there for no apparent reason.

The blood war is also not a sport, it is a war of milenar hatred, each side devotes as much as possible to it. The devils devote most of their armies to it, in fact. While on the demon side, Molydeus exist mainly to roam around and forcefully conscript anyone they find into the demon armies. It is just a few demon lords wo believe it is foolish. Most other demons see a devil and want to gut it, more than he wants to gut a celestial possibly.

[The Rose Dragon]

Eh. Reread Fiendish Codex Two.

[...]

On the other hand, each layer of te abyss is, indeed, infinite.

Reread Fiendish Codex I. Abyss has several layers that are finite.

[Haven]

The Abyss probably doesn't have Aleph One layers. I'd suspect either Aleph 0 or just 666.

It's the latter.

But again, some of those are infinite. So Yeah.

[Draken]

Reread Fiendish Codex I. Abyss has several layers that are finite.

>.>

Eh, big fail for me there. But if the Abyss has nine infinite layers it's already on the advantage. :smalltongue:

[Blackfang108]

Although the demons outnumber the devils, the demons are not as likely to be organized, and an entire battalion could be taken down by unrest within the group.

A well-placed thrown rock can do that, too.

See, and my mother told me DOOM wasn't educational. :smallbiggrin:

[Volkov]

Devils deal with the numbers of demons via fireball spam, the fact that they have kurtlmak god of the endless numbers of kobolds, and tiamat, queen of the evil dragons on their side and fact that they are on very good terms with the efreeti.

[SoD]

...I entered this thread looking forward to a meaningful discussion on the merits and disadvantages of a perpetual war between the Devils and the Demons, and left with a sore head and nothing meaningful to contribute.

What's an aleph?

[Yuki Akuma]

...I entered this thread looking forward to a meaningful discussion on the merits and disadvantages of a perpetual war between the Devils and the Demons, and left with a sore head and nothing meaningful to contribute.

What's an aleph?

Aleph-null is the 'number' of all countable numbers that exist. It is what most people think of when they hear the word "infinie".

Aleph-one is larger. Aleph-two is larger still...

[Volkov]

Devils can be often very unsubtle, often simply getting their pit fiends to bathe the demons in fireballs.

[Johel]

Aleph-null is the 'number' of all countable numbers that exist. It is what most people think of when they hear the word "infinie".

Aleph-one is larger. Aleph-two is larger still...

I'm not really good at math but... how can something larger than "all countable numbers that exist" exist in the first place ?
It seems a bit illogical to me.
If it exists, then it's countable (as it would be the addition of all numbers before it).
If it's countable, then it's part of Aleph-null.
Therefore, it can't be larger than Aleph-null AND be a part of it.

[Volkov]

I'm not really good at math but... how can something larger than "all countable numbers that exist" exist in the first place ?
It seems a bit illogical to me.
If it exists, then it's countable (as it would be the addition of all numbers before it).
If it's countable, then it's part of Aleph-null.
Therefore, it can't be larger than Aleph-null AND be a part of it.
Logic breaks down after Aleph null.

[Indon]

This is the point of the thread where my puny human brain starts hurting.

Well, here two different concepts are being discussed.

The length of the series being compared - (1,2,3,4...) vs (20,40,60,80...): Both are infinite.

The size of the numbers in each series - 40 is 20 times bigger than 2, 60 is 20 times bigger than 3, etc.

Both series are of equal length (that is, they increase infinitely), but for any given point between the series, one will be 20 times greater than the other.

This is discounting the ridiculous numbers brought up shortly thereafter, about multiple infinities and such.

[Lapak]

A math specialist can correct me here if I'm wrong, but you start getting into higher orders of infinities when you are talking about infinite sets of things are are themselves infinite.

Counting each number, or counting each twentieth number, are both the same type of infinity: each number is its own thing, there are just infinite numbers of them. But if you count not just all integers, but all the possible numbers between them, we're talking about something else: there are infinite numbers counting 1, 2, 3,... but if you start counting the values between them there are infinite values between each number. So you have 1, 1.00000000~1, 1.0000000~2, , 1.999999~9, 2.

You don't just have an infinite number of things; you have an infinite number of [I]sets that are each of infinite size.

So if one side had X planes, and the other side had Y planes, but the Y planes were of infinite size, then Y is a bigger infinity than X.

If both sides have a finite number of infinite planes, they are the same size, regardless of what those finite numbers are. (This is the situation as I understand it; 9 Hells and 666 Abyssal layers.)

If the Abyss had an infinite number of infinite layers and Hell only had 9, then the Abyss would be a bigger infinity. As I understand it, and I may be wrong.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

A math specialist can correct me here if I'm wrong, but you start getting into higher orders of infinities when you are talking about infinite sets of things are are themselves infinite.

That's basically it. Another classification of infinities is that a "countable infinity" is one that can be mapped to the natural numbers (1, 2, 3...) and an "uncountable infinity" is one that can't. Because {1, 2, 3, ..., N} and {20, 40, 60, ..., 20N} can both be mapped/transformed to the natural numbers (1:1 in the first case and 20:1 in the second), they're countable infinities, which puts them kind of on the same footing when it comes to set math.

[Dervag]

My rationalization of all this is that the demons have an infinite army but only a finite number of 'doors' they can use to get out of the Abyss. This has two consequences:

1)Since the doors are only so big, there is a finite limit on the number of demons who can escape the Abyss at any one time, allowing a finite force to stop them by blocking the doors or killing demons faster than they can get out through the doors.

2)Most demons live on infinitely large planes and are extremely far away from any of the finite number of doors. As in, you'd have to walk for a light-year or ten to get to one. If the nearest door is that far away, you probably don't even know it exists, so you (a demon) spend all your time and effort fighting other demons.

The only demons who even realize that there's such a thing as a Blood War (and the only demons anyone outside the Abyss ever sees) are the ones who happen to live close to one or more of the doors that lead OUT of the Abyss. The others sort of cancel each other out as far as the rest of the multiverse is concerned.


That's basically it. Another classification of infinities is that a "countable infinity" is one that can be mapped to the natural numbers (1, 2, 3...) and an "uncountable infinity" is one that can't. Because {1, 2, 3, ..., N} and {20, 40, 60, ..., 20N} can both be mapped/transformed to the natural numbers (1:1 in the first case and 20:1 in the second), they're countable infinities, which puts them kind of on the same footing when it comes to set math.However, the demons still end up outnumbering the devils twenty to one, even if they're both countably infinite armies.


I'm not really good at math but... how can something larger than "all countable numbers that exist" exist in the first place ?
It seems a bit illogical to me.
If it exists, then it's countable (as it would be the addition of all numbers before it).
If it's countable, then it's part of Aleph-null.
Therefore, it can't be larger than Aleph-null AND be a part of it.As a trivial example: imagine the complex numbers, numbers of the form a+b*i. Ignore what "i" is, that doesn't matter for the moment, except that it is NOT a real number, and cannot be represented as a value of "a" or "b".

The point is that for every countable number a, there must be way more than one possible number a+b*i... one for every possible value of b. Since b can have just as many values as a can, if "the set of all numbers a" is "infinity," then "the set of all complex numbers a+b*i" is an infinite number of infinities. Not only do the complex numbers outnumber the reals, but the complex numbers outnumber the reals by an infinity-to-one margin.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

However, the demons still end up outnumbering the devils twenty to one, even if they're both countably infinite armies.

Right. I said on the same footing for set math, not the same footing for the Blood War.

[Myrmex]

Aleph-null is the 'number' of all countable numbers that exist. It is what most people think of when they hear the word "infinie".

Aleph-one is larger. Aleph-two is larger still...

Is the numbering of Alephs contained in the Aleph-null, or could you have Aleph-Aleph-1?

[Yuki Akuma]

You could possibly have aleph-aleph-null but I think that's as far as you can go without exploding a mathematician.

Also I'm pretty sure the Abyss does have infinite layers - layer 666 is just the deepest that has a canonical name.

[Megaduck]

I always found some of the back story for planescape a little lacking. Mainly that Angels, Demons, and Petitioners die. I found this strange for the "Afterlife".

So I always ruled that when an outsider (on the wheel) died they were reincarnated at a random place on their home plane 3d100/level days later with experience loss. In NPCs this translated into a loss of memory of the previous life.

I further ruled that all outsiders were originally mortals. Souls started in the elemental planes, died to the prime planes, then died again to the outer planes.

In this way there aren't infinite outsiders, the total number of outsiders is the sum of every soul that ever existed. So that is how I got 20 Demons for every Devil. It's just easier for Demons to convince people to be chaotic evil rather then lawful evil.

It's also the way I encouraged my players to imprison the ultimate evil rather then 'Kill it'. It would simply come back later if you did.

[Yuki Akuma]

But the Prime Material Plane is infinitely large, and contains infinitely many worlds.

So 'all the souls that ever existed' is still infinite.

(The source of all souls, the Positive Energy Plane, is also infinite.)

[bosssmiley]

I always found some of the back story for planescape a little lacking. Mainly that Angels, Demons, and Petitioners die. I found this strange for the "Afterlife".

"It's your afterlife; it's my home. Do I look dead to you berk?" (And that's why Primes are called the Clueless. :smalltongue: )

The Great Wheel is only partly the afterlife of the Prime Material Plane. It is also the home of the gods, the domain of philosophical wars, and the font of mysteries. Planescape is about what happens in the interstices between the great, ever-shifting power blocs the Primes typify as Law, Chaos, Good and Evil.

The Blood War? That's the big, noisy interface between two mutually incompatible flavours of Evil. Think of it as a colossally rowdy and violently short-tempered debating society.

Also GIANT FROG. :smallwink:

[Doug Lampert]

Both are in the same aleph, but since it is Aleph null it is countable (the definition of aleph null). So from anything other than a mathematically purist point of view we can say in any range there will be 20 demons per devil because it is countable, and this trend continues to infinity.
But by that logic I can reorder so that the same aleph null set of devils and demons and show that the devils actually outnumber the demons by 20 to 1.

It's a fairly trivial mapping.

Simply take your two Aleph Null sets and start grouping 20 devils to each demon, you'll never run out of devils, you can tell me exactly which devils are opposing each demon and which demon each devil is attacking. (Demon 92 is being attacked by devils 1821 to 1840, devil 3254 is attacking demon 163.)

So the mapping is perfectly valid, and I've listed 20 devils for every single demon, so the devils outnumber the demons by 20 to 1.

Aleph Null over Aleph Null is undefined, not one. The ratio between two infinites is either infinite, zero, or undefined. 20 isn't a possible answer.


But not all infinities are equal to each other. In this case, one is 20x as big as the other one.

All infinities related in size by a finite nonzero ratio are the EXACT SAME SIZE.

This is fairly trivial Cantor theory here. Both sets are Aleph Null in size, I can relate them so it looks like one has the other outnumbered 1,000,000 to 1, but Aleph Null is a cardinality, it tells me how big the set is, and 20 times Aleph Null is STILL Aleph Null (AKA the same size).


I'm not really good at math but... how can something larger than "all countable numbers that exist" exist in the first place ?
It seems a bit illogical to me.
If it exists, then it's countable (as it would be the addition of all numbers before it).
If it's countable, then it's part of Aleph-null.

There's a fairly trivial proof that the number of Real Numbers is larger than the number of integers.

Basically, if I try to count all the real numbers I'll run out of integers without matching up all the real numbers. This is proved by assuming you have such a matching (aka that you've counted all the real numbers) and showing that there's at least one number you haven't counted. This number is constructed based on your claimed correspondence (basically, the first didget after the decimal place is different from the first didget after the decimal place in the first number in your claimed count, the second didget after the decimal place is different from the second didget after the decimal place in your second number, ext... the resulting number differs from every number you've counted in at least one decimal place and hence you haven't counted it).

With somewhat more difficulty I can show that the set of all possible functions of the reals is larger in number than the number of real numbers. Again, no one to one and onto correspondence can exist.

[Mordokai]

Heck, it's said that in the 5th layer of hell there's a standing army bigger than all the troops ever sent in the Blood war combined, for example.

Any possible way of getting the source of that information? Blood War, Baator and Abyss are some of my favourite topics in DnD and I grab any possibility for more knowledge on the subjects.

And this is highly informative and interesting thread. Even though one such as myself would appreciate more info on actual Blood War and less info on Math :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:

[Megaduck]

But the Prime Material Plane is infinitely large, and contains infinitely many worlds.

So 'all the souls that ever existed' is still infinite.

(The source of all souls, the Positive Energy Plane, is also infinite.)

Not in the Cosmology I was using. ^_^

They were all potentially infinitely large because they were all expanding constantly. There was, however, an absolute top limit to both souls and matter at any given time, albeit a very very LARGE top limit.


"It's your afterlife; it's my home. Do I look dead to you berk?" (And that's why Primes are called the Clueless. )

Heh, see that's where the problem comes in. If it's my afterlife and I be killed there? Summed up here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html)

I was reading about Cecari and how the petitioners were always falling down the mountains and dying and and thought "Wow, the entire afterlife is a 10 minute fall... seems lacking somehow."


The Blood War? That's the big, noisy interface between two mutually incompatible flavours of Evil. Think of it as a colossally rowdy and violently short-tempered debating society.

Whoever crushes more skulls WINS!


Also GIANT FROG


Not only a giant frog, a PINK GIANT FROG!

[Doug Lampert]

You could possibly have aleph-aleph-null but I think that's as far as you can go without exploding a mathematician.

Speaking as a Ph.D. mathemetician. There's a proof that any set is smaller than it's own power-set (the number of sets in the collection of all possible sub-sets).

For example the empty set has no elements, but its power set has 1 element (the empty set itself). A set of 10 elements has 1024 possible subsets.

This (potentially) gets you to Aleph-Aleph-null as the number that the sequence of power sets is "converging" to (assuming the continuum hypotheses, which I personally always do). But there's still a larger set since that set itself has a powerset. I can't remember what sets that large are called, and as far as I know there's no actual use for them in proving anything useful.

[Volkov]

The ninth layer has an absolutely enormous of pit fiends and bearded devils, more than enough pit fiends to permanently scour every fricken plane of life. These don't come from souls, but the pit fiends come from asmodeus's blood, and the bearded devils come from the pit fiend's blood.

[Starbuck_II]

...Not really, no, not at all.

He means Circles have no beggining, middle, and end. A properly made circle has no indication.
I don't see how that translates into infinite though.

[SmartAlec]

Heh, see that's where the problem comes in. If it's my afterlife and I be killed there?

Petitoners cease to exist as entities before too long in any case, as they eventually become a part of the stuff of the Plane they're on.

[Volkov]

The D&D universe, or at least the Greyhawk one, is really big on the "No one is unkillable" thing.

[Eldan]

But Devils and Demons, at least, reincarnate anyway, unless I?m not mistaken... or am I confusing everything and that wasn't the case in Planescape?

Outsiders can also merge back into the stuff of the planes.

[golentan]

But by that logic I can reorder so that the same aleph null set of devils and demons and show that the devils actually outnumber the demons by 20 to 1.

It's a fairly trivial mapping.

Simply take your two Aleph Null sets and start grouping 20 devils to each demon, you'll never run out of devils, you can tell me exactly which devils are opposing each demon and which demon each devil is attacking. (Demon 92 is being attacked by devils 1821 to 1840, devil 3254 is attacking demon 163.)

So the mapping is perfectly valid, and I've listed 20 devils for every single demon, so the devils outnumber the demons by 20 to 1.

Aleph Null over Aleph Null is undefined, not one. The ratio between two infinites is either infinite, zero, or undefined. 20 isn't a possible answer.


Which is why I specified that it held true within any given range, was from something other than a mathematically purist point of view, and used the limit as x goes to infinity of x/20x. Any time you do such a trivial mapping, you are finding that there are more devils you can dogpile on but you aren't reducing the range of demons. And since the limit holds true, the demons are not content to sit still while you map them to combat disadvantage, swarm you in a giant rush with their own mapping system, and devour your soul.

And that's why there aren't mathematicians in hell. So the next time you make a mapping argument in a scenario involving infinite spaces, ask yourself: Do the spaces consent to being mapped, and are they meaner than I am.

[Lysander]

Maybe the secret is not to think of it in terms of total numbers of devils and demons but as the concentration of devils and demons in any given spot. If you are in a battlefield with 10 devils the odds are there will be 200 demons fighting them. On average. Elsewhere there is an infinite amount, right here, right now, there's a usual ratio.

It's kind of like gold. Gold is valuable because it is rare. But if you measured how much gold there was in the universe as a whole it would be immense. Countless times more gold than the entire mass of our solar system. So is gold rare? It is on earth.

[SmartAlec]

But Devils and Demons, at least, reincarnate anyway, unless I?m not mistaken... or am I confusing everything and that wasn't the case in Planescape?

Outsiders can also merge back into the stuff of the planes.

If they're killed outside of their 'home' plane, Outsiders (or, to use the term they prefer, Planars) disappear and reform on their home plane. The length of time this takes varies.

If a Planar/Outsider is killed on their home plane, though, they're dead.

[thorgrim29]

exactly, it`s better to be on hand with 10 man then an infinite distance away with an infinite number of men (or demons)

[Volkov]

Even the abyss will be destroyed by Asmodeus's army of pit fiends and bearded devils if his plan works. And Asmodeus is a very, very clever being who's had pretty much forever for his plan to work. He's been pouring blood with the strength of the greatest water falls for 200 million years, and each drop of blood makes a max hit dice pit fiend, and their blood makes bearded devils. When the time comes, they will ally with the demons, then burn the upper planes, then they will turn on the yugoloths and the demons, and they too will be destroyed.

Vecna however, probably has some sort of plot to destroy Asmodeus if that occurs. After all, in the final modules of 2e, he caused unimaginable havoc when he had the power of a greater deity, in fact, some say his actions in the last 2e module, is the in-game explanation for the conversion from 2e to 3e. And keep in mind, he did this as a mere greater deity, if he had the power of an overdeity, well let's just say greyhawk would be a very ugly place to live in.

[hamishspence]

"Pouring blood with the strength of the greatest waterfalls"?

I'm not sure where this is coming from- Fiendish Codex 2 suggests that the fact that Serpent's Coil is miles long doesn't mean Asmodeus is miles long (unlike Manual of the Planes)- he carved out the canyon on hitting the layer at high speed, rather than his body being miles long- the length of the canyon.

also- where is "200 million years" coming from?

[Volkov]

"Pouring blood with the strength of the greatest waterfalls"?

I'm not sure where this is coming from- Fiendish Codex 2 suggests that the fact that Serpent's Coil is miles long doesn't mean Asmodeus is miles long (unlike Manual of the Planes)- he carved out the canyon on hitting the layer at high speed, rather than his body being miles long- the length of the canyon.

also- where is "200 million years" coming from?

It's the age of the Greyhawk universe.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

"Pouring blood with the strength of the greatest waterfalls"?

I'm not sure where this is coming from- Fiendish Codex 2 suggests that the fact that Serpent's Coil is miles long doesn't mean Asmodeus is miles long (unlike Manual of the Planes)- he carved out the canyon on hitting the layer at high speed, rather than his body being miles long- the length of the canyon.

He isn't that large; he's just bleeding profusely, and has been since the Fall.

[Project_Mayhem]

The real reason that the Blood War hasn't been won yet, despite the numerical advantage of the demons, is because both sides are currently expending all of their resources miserably trying to take down the nameless one.

[hamishspence]

It's the age of the Greyhawk universe.


But (if the FC2 story is close to correct) Asmodeus hasn't been Fallen since the beginning of the universe there were obyriths, Aboleths, deities, sentient races, a period with evil souls being punished by Asmodeus before the deites objected- then and only then, did he Fall.

Similarly- he may be "bleeding profusely" but if he was "bleeding with the strength of the greatest waterfalls" it seems a but OTT- a Large being with immense streams of blood rocketing away from him at high speeds in all directions.

[Volkov]

But (if the FC2 story is close to correct) Asmodeus hasn't been Fallen since the beginning of the universe there were obyriths, Aboleths, deities, sentient races, a period with evil souls being punished by Asmodeus before the deites objected- then and only then, did he Fall.

Similarly- he may be "bleeding profusely" but if he was "bleeding with the strength of the greatest waterfalls" it seems a but OTT- a Large being with immense streams of blood rocketing away from him at high speeds in all directions.
Even so, that was millions of years ago. He's had enough time to create an enormous, nigh limitless army of pit fiends.

[hamishspence]

only if we assume he's been bleeding fast all that time. If he's been dripping, very slowly, from open but no longer pouring wounds, the millions of fiends slow down a bit.

Also, FC2 makes Nessus and the other layers finite in size- putting a limit on the space which can be filled with devils.

Have we got a chronology showing when the universe began, the Obyrith war against the Wind Dukes, and the date before present (roughly) that Asmodeus was cast down?

[Volkov]

only if we assume he's been bleeding fast all that time. If he's been dripping, very slowly, from open but no longer pouring wounds, the millions of fiends slow down a bit.

Also, FC2 makes Nessus and the other layers finite in size- putting a limit on the space which can be filled with devils.

Have we got a chronology showing when the universe began, the Obyrith war against the Wind Dukes, and the date before present (roughly) that Asmodeus was cast down?

There is one on the Greyhawk wiki.

I really wish we got some information about the ancient baatorians, all that we really know is that like the obyriths, they were made by the Baernoloths, and that Zargon was their ruler, and they were supposed to be really slimy. I wonder if Asmodeus's then much smaller army of pit fiends and bearded devils played a hand in bringing down Zargon's regime of goop. There are no stats about them in virtually any edition save for Zargon.

[Volkov]

Also the blood war continues mainly because the Yugoloths wish it to. As the General of Gehenna is by far the most powerful of the Evil Outsider Lords, he would crush Demogorgon and Asmodeus in a fight at once. And both of them know it. Really he's just biding his time for his own evil take over. The greyhawk universe's political structure is just one big thirty thousand xanatos gambit pileup.

[Dervag]

Even so, that was millions of years ago. He's had enough time to create an enormous, nigh limitless army of pit fiends.True, but only "nigh" limitless.

If they go up against an army that really is limitless, they're going to get their heads handed to them. There really is no way to beat an infinite army except by trapping it behind a finite bottleneck and keeping them bottled up there. Try to fight on their terms and you'll be dead before you can say "Oh god there's demons everywhere get them off me aargh aargh arrgh..."

[olentu]

Also the blood war continues mainly because the Yugoloths wish it to. As the General of Gehenna is by far the most powerful of the Evil Outsider Lords, he would crush Demogorgon and Asmodeus in a fight at once. And both of them know it. Really he's just biding his time for his own evil take over. The greyhawk universe's political structure is just one big thirty thousand xanatos gambit pileup.

Eh there is probably really only one and all the rest are actually part of the one big plan presumably created by vecna.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

But (if the FC2 story is close to correct) Asmodeus hasn't been Fallen since the beginning of the universe there were obyriths, Aboleths, deities, sentient races, a period with evil souls being punished by Asmodeus before the deites objected- then and only then, did he Fall.

Similarly- he may be "bleeding profusely" but if he was "bleeding with the strength of the greatest waterfalls" it seems a but OTT- a Large being with immense streams of blood rocketing away from him at high speeds in all directions.

Well, FC2 has minor retcons of Planescape lore, so opinions on how long he's been in Baator are obviously going to differ. Also, he's not necessarily just Large--the statted versions of him in BoVD and FC2 are absolutely pathetic compared to what he should be like, and if you're not going to leave his stats at "Asmodeus: LE outsider; wins against gods and PCs" then you're going to have to make adjustments...like having his actual form be Colossal+ to explain the Nessian rift.

[Volkov]

True, but only "nigh" limitless.

If they go up against an army that really is limitless, they're going to get their heads handed to them. There really is no way to beat an infinite army except by trapping it behind a finite bottleneck and keeping them bottled up there. Try to fight on their terms and you'll be dead before you can say "Oh god there's demons everywhere get them off me aargh aargh arrgh..."
They would all use their once a year wishes to erase the demons from existence.

[The_Snark]

They would all use their once a year wishes to erase the demons from existence.

I think it's safe to say that if they could do that, they already would have. But the idea that either side could win the Blood War through tactics or superior magic is kind of silly, really; it's a clash of ideologies, not just physical beings. This is the Outer Planes we're talking about: concepts and alignments made manifest. The strength of the idea translates pretty directly to the strength of the outsiders that embody it.

If Law were objectively superior to Chaos, then yes, the devils could win the Blood War this way. It's not; you only have to look at the alignment section of the PHB to see that the designers of the game are pretty clearly trying to paint all alignments as equal (or equally bad, in the case of the evil alignments). They each have their advantages and disadvantages, which balance out, and the unwinnable Blood War is a way of representing that. If you say, "Hell could win the Blood War and will, once Asmodeus gets to that stage in his grand scheme", you're defying a pretty fundamental tenet of the setting.

[Yuki Akuma]

I like the "the Blood War isn't going anywhere because the Nameless One is distracting all the fiends" theory.

[golentan]

I think it's safe to say that if they could do that, they already would have. But the idea that either side could win the Blood War through tactics or superior magic is kind of silly, really; it's a clash of ideologies, not just physical beings. This is the Outer Planes we're talking about: concepts and alignments made manifest. The strength of the idea translates pretty directly to the strength of the outsiders that embody it.

If Law were objectively superior to Chaos, then yes, the devils could win the Blood War this way. It's not; you only have to look at the alignment section of the PHB to see that the designers of the game are pretty clearly trying to paint all alignments as equal (or equally bad, in the case of the evil alignments). They each have their advantages and disadvantages, which balance out, and the unwinnable Blood War is a way of representing that. If you say, "Hell could win the Blood War and will, once Asmodeus gets to that stage in his grand scheme", you're defying a pretty fundamental tenet of the setting.

I don't know, my DM and I came up with an interesting scenario once where he took the attitude that law is objectively better at achieving long term objectives (like "Kill all Demons") and so one day: Won. And the next day, this destabilized the great wheel. Day 3 the multiverse is in turmoil, and the devils begin a civil war over whether they destroyed the law and order of the 'verse and thus harmed their cause more than aiding it. By day 5 the civil war has caused an entire faction of yugoloths, Daemons, and Devils to split off and found a new Abyss and transform into Demons. Day 7, the first day of the new blood war begins, and all is right with the multiverse again.

I loved our demon campaign. It was awesome.

I guess my point is that a philosophy can be objectively better, but even so may not be able to survive in isolation. I always took the attitude that it was a case of balanced because it needs to be, rather than balanced because it's equal.

[The_Snark]

It sounds like your DM took the idea that winning the Blood War would have serious metaphysical consequences and ran with it. (Which sounds like a really cool campaign idea.) So yeah, I guess I should say that while the Blood War could in theory be won, it would represent a shift in the fundamental nature of the multiverse. It'd probably mean the end of it, too: if the demons win, they overrun the multiverse, which starts to dissolve into an unlivable chaotic morass. If the devils win, then they slowly expand across the multiverse, imprisoning every living being in an unchanging, hellish existence until everything finally just stops moving and the multiverse becomes eternally still.

Unless the PCs can hold off the Lower Plane in question long enough to find a way to restore balance, that is...

[SmartAlec]

One theory put forward is that because it's possibly the tensions that keep alignments apart that allows the Great Wheel to exist, if the Abyss became Lawful Evil or the Hells Chaotic, the whole Wheel would just collapse inwards on itself, destroying the Inner Planes and the Prime Material as it went.

[KazilDarkeye]

Also, he's not necessarily just Large--the statted versions of him in BoVD and FC2 are absolutely pathetic compared to what he should be like, and if you're not going to leave his stats at "Asmodeus: LE outsider; wins against gods and PCs" then you're going to have to make adjustments...like having his actual form be Colossal+ to explain the Nessian rift.
Keep in mind - that's his Aspect (or an Aspect) - Asmodeus himself has been described in other sources as a 30 f.t./60 f.t. (I forget) long serpent-bodied creature. It is also the case that, as a powerful outsider, he can change his shape very easily.


You could possibly have aleph-aleph-null but I think that's as far as you can go without exploding a mathematician.


Actually, you can go much further - aleph-aleph-one, aleph-aleph-two, ... aleph-aleph-aleph-... an aleph-zero number of times ...-zero.

The main way it works is this (spoilered if you wish to skip):

Consider the set of natural numbers. It starts 1, 2, 3, ... and keeps going.
Let U1 = 1
Then U(n+1) = Un + 1

The set progresses as 1, 2, 3, ...

Eventually you reach aleph-zero (the first number that cannot form a one-one correspondance with any finite number).

You don't have to stop adding one, however. 1, 2, 3, ... , aleph-zero, aleph-zero + 1, aleph-zero + 2.

As an aside:

Technically, since aleph-zero + n can form a one-one correspondance with aleph-zero for any finite n, it is the same number being repeated. For now, we can ignore that.


If you keep adding 1, you reach aleph-zero x 2. You can keep adding one, going through (aleph-zero x 2) + 1, ... aleph-zero x 3, ... aleph-zero x aleph-zero.
Keep going and you reach aleph-zero^aleph-zero^aleph-zero^... (this number is called epsilon-zero).

Eventually the "limit" of this process is aleph-one. It is the smallest number which cannot form a one-one correspondance with aleph-zero.

But why stop there? Continuing in a similar fashion you reach aleph-two, aleph-three, aleph-(aleph-zero), aleph-(aleph-(aleph-zero)) and so on. Some mathematicians believe there IS some number infinite number Omega where this process stops, but it is so fantasically large, we don't know where to begin defining it in terms of aleph (or any number for that matter)


A few major points about the Blood War:

1) Not every skirmish happens on Baator. Certainly, many do, but occasionly devils may tread on Pazunia (although this would probably be for a more subtle objective)

2) The Devils do not win every single battle - check FCII and it says something along the lines of "...still, the devils only win about half of their engagements. Strategy and tactics don't really count for too much when you're outnumbered twenty to one". The point is that, although sometimes the demons win a battle in Baator, they will always have to face more - this is really ideal for Devils anyway (they can use many techniques to whittle them down).

3) Neither side devotes their complete attentions to the War;
a) Demons squabble amongst themselves and have their own plans (some of them, anyway).
b) Devils must keep corrupting mortals, and stockpile an army for the even more cataclysmic battle to come.
Also, I don't think the Gods present on the Abyss or Baator care too much about the War (except as a source of profit - Tiamat sold the secrets of the abishai, for example)

4) Don't forget the Yugoloth - as mercenaries and swrods-for-hire they WANT the war to continue for as long as possible so they eke every last copper piece out of it. I have no doubts that some of these battles are essentially Yugoloth vs. Yugoloth, perhaps because both sides needed to buy a great force, or perhaps because the Yugoloth want it this way.

Then, again, it does depend on your own interpretation of things - as do many things about the planes and D&D in general.

[Lkctgo]

The demons in the Blood War outnumber the Devils in the Blood War 20 / 1.

Not all the resources of the Lower Planes are tied up in a pointless conflict. The Lords of the Nine know better than that, and the Demon Princes just care more about destroying the Upper Planes and the Material Plane than they do about destroying Baator.

I don't think that's right, actually Baator, or the Nine Hells, is finite in size. It's only the Abyss, the Chaos Realm that is supposedly infinite.

Further, the entire formation of the Devils was due to them agreeing to fight against the Demons, if they lose, the multiverse will most likely perish.

Lastly, it is said that Asmodeus, or the Ruler of the Nine Hells, would like nothing better than to finish the Blood War directly. This will allow him to build up his forces against all that is good and holy. Each day wasted fighting the demons is a day wasted not trying to scheme an uprising of the upper planes. One would think he would want the blood war ended as fast as possible.

[Volkov]

I don't think that's right, actually Baator, or the Nine Hells, is finite in size. It's only the Abyss, the Chaos Realm that is supposedly infinite.

Further, the entire formation of the Devils was due to them agreeing to fight against the Demons, if they lose, the multiverse will most likely perish.

Lastly, it is said that Asmodeus, or the Ruler of the Nine Hells, would like nothing better than to finish the Blood War directly. This will allow him to build up his forces against all that is good and holy. Each day wasted fighting the demons is a day wasted not trying to scheme an uprising of the upper planes. One would think he would want the blood war ended as fast as possible.
Git yer 4th edition lore out of my 3.5e lore.

[Volkov]

I think it's safe to say that if they could do that, they already would have. But the idea that either side could win the Blood War through tactics or superior magic is kind of silly, really; it's a clash of ideologies, not just physical beings. This is the Outer Planes we're talking about: concepts and alignments made manifest. The strength of the idea translates pretty directly to the strength of the outsiders that embody it.

If Law were objectively superior to Chaos, then yes, the devils could win the Blood War this way. It's not; you only have to look at the alignment section of the PHB to see that the designers of the game are pretty clearly trying to paint all alignments as equal (or equally bad, in the case of the evil alignments). They each have their advantages and disadvantages, which balance out, and the unwinnable Blood War is a way of representing that. If you say, "Hell could win the Blood War and will, once Asmodeus gets to that stage in his grand scheme", you're defying a pretty fundamental tenet of the setting.
Asmodeus wouldn't win though. Even he is vastly inferior to the lord of the Yugoloths, The General of Gehenna is THE Fiend.

[Sir_Elderberry]

Git yer 4th edition lore out of my 3.5e lore.
Um. I think that's the 3.5 story as well, although I can't quite remember. Asmodeus is an angel, starts fighting demons, gazes too long into the abyss, the gods get mad and drag him up before the celestials, he's like "let's make a deal guys", everyone signs the Pact Primeval, Asmodeus goes back to fighting the demons (because otherwise they're going to kill everything), and starts collecting souls.

Unless you were referring to the finitude/infinitude of planes.

[Volkov]

Um. I think that's the 3.5 story as well, although I can't quite remember. Asmodeus is an angel, starts fighting demons, gazes too long into the abyss, the gods get mad and drag him up before the celestials, he's like "let's make a deal guys", everyone signs the Pact Primeval, Asmodeus goes back to fighting the demons (because otherwise they're going to kill everything), and starts collecting souls.

Unless you were referring to the finitude/infinitude of planes.

You forgot the part where Asmodeus had to beat the rulership over the Nine hells out of Zargon.

[Sir_Elderberry]

Eh. Details. Sometimes you beat the **** out of incomprehensibly powerful things, some days you don't. Who can keep track?

[Volkov]

The Ancient Baatorians seem to be vastly inferior when compared to their Obyrith brothers. Compare Zargon, lord of the Ancient Baatorians to the ASPECT of Sertrous, who frighteningly enough, is a minor Obyrith lord. The aspect of a mere minor obyrith lord is far more powerful than the lord of the Ancient Baatorians. Then Again Zargon is deadly to gods somehow.

[KazilDarkeye]

3.5ed lore states that Asmodeus wants the Blood War to continue until he has amassed enough devils. Then he plans to call a temporary truce with the demons long enough for both sides to storm the heavens (and then he will probably backstab the demon lords stupid/short-sighted enough to go along with this.

[Volkov]

3.5ed lore states that Asmodeus wants the Blood War to continue until he has amassed enough devils. Then he plans to call a temporary truce with the demons long enough for both sides to storm the heavens (and then he will probably backstab the demon lords stupid/short-sighted enough to go along with this.
The General of Gehenna wants it to go on to see which race will make the better back-bone for his army when he decides to end the war and attack the planes of good and everything in between.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

3.5ed lore states that Asmodeus wants the Blood War to continue until he has amassed enough devils. Then he plans to call a temporary truce with the demons long enough for both sides to storm the heavens (and then he will probably backstab the demon lords stupid/short-sighted enough to go along with this.

That was the inspiration/premise of the last campaign I ran, actually--the devils helped a nation of elves basically take over the Prime and form an empire, and then when the time was right, a truce was formed, the Upper Planes were sealed off to weaken all the good gods, and the demon-devil force invaded up the sides of the Wheel and tried to take over the Prime and the Inner Planes.

About halfway between the point that the PCs figured out what was going on (and thought that this was the big moment) and when the Upper Planes would have been completely screwed, the PCs managed to unseal the Upper Planes; the devils broke the truce, headed back to Baator, and let the demons take the brunt of celestial wrath, making the whole thing just another Blood War maneuver.

[Eldan]

Yeah, I did something similar...

Basically, seeing as the Harmonium Empire of Ortho had already established a global empire of law and cooperating with Beholders and Hobgoblins, they started giving them more power and technology. Spelljammers, amongst other things, to enable them to lead more prime worlds to glorious Harmonium rule.

[hamishspence]

Well, FC2 has minor retcons of Planescape lore, so opinions on how long he's been in Baator are obviously going to differ. Also, he's not necessarily just Large--the statted versions of him in BoVD and FC2 are absolutely pathetic compared to what he should be like, and if you're not going to leave his stats at "Asmodeus: LE outsider; wins against gods and PCs" then you're going to have to make adjustments...like having his actual form be Colossal+ to explain the Nessian rift.



It explains it as his fall carving out the rift, as if he was ploughing though it on impact and taking a long time to come to a stop, rather than simply landing on it and leaving an imprint of his body.

[Volkov]

I wonder why we are only ever given vague hints as to the power of the General of Gehenna.

[Eldan]

So that he can be as strong as necessary for the campaign. Also because Secrecy is one of the biggest strenght of the 'loths.

[Volkov]

As he is the mightiest of the fiends, I wonder how many fiends he orders the execution of daily.

[Eldan]

Difficult to say. I mean, most people are supposed to never have even heard of him. On the other hand, the same thing was said about Asmodeus.

Also, I think that a quiet assassination or just "and then he disappeared and was never seen again" fits quite well with the fluff.

[hamishspence]

That would depend on how many transgress the rules of Gehenna, and how many prisoners from the Blood War (if yugoloths sometimes capture rather than kill devils or demons) that he sees fit to destroy.

I'd be surprised if it was an immense number. The yugoloths might misbehave sometimes, but they are mercenaries- they probably understand the value of discipline, and my guess is that there aren't that many "criminal yugoloths"

[Volkov]

Everyone in the crawling city knows about him, because there, even the mightiest of demon lords or dukes of hell will be killed if they get on his bad side.

[Kaiyanwang]

Jut a question.. is there a 3.x source statting the general? And if there is none, where in AD&D can find him?

[Mordokai]

That would be of interest to me as well.

Perhaps a Dragon magazine?

[waterpenguin43]

Um. I think that's the 3.5 story as well, although I can't quite remember. Asmodeus is an angel, starts fighting demons, gazes too long into the abyss, the gods get mad and drag him up before the celestials, he's like "let's make a deal guys", everyone signs the Pact Primeval, Asmodeus goes back to fighting the demons (because otherwise they're going to kill everything), and starts collecting souls.

Unless you were referring to the finitude/infinitude of planes.

That is in v3.5, I have fiendish codex II.